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Author Topic: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards  (Read 3584 times)

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Xen3k

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2022, 01:11:23 pm »
0



Quote
Coin Press $4
Action
Choose one: Gain a Silver to your hand; or trash 2 Treasures from your hand to gain a Silver; or trash 2 Silvers from your hand to gain a Gold to your hand.

A Silver gainer that either nets $2 that turn or trashes 2 copper from hand. It can also trash 2 Silver later on to gain a Gold to hand. I want this to cost $4, but I am not sure if it should or not. Feedback is appreciated.

As worded, this has accountability issues. I'd have a good reason to trash a Copper from my hand with no other Treasures in hand, which this allows you to do but lacks accountability for.

That is true, but you would not gain a Silver from it, so it would be playing an Action to trash a Copper. I don't think that is very powerful for a $4 cost card, but that does add to the flexibility of the card. Do you think that is something that needs fixing?

Edit: On second thought I understand better the issue. I will try and rework the wording on for the second option, but I really don't want this to be more wordy... May just modify the design.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2022, 01:22:29 pm by Xen3k »
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n_sanity

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2022, 02:41:23 pm »
+1



Quote
Coin Press $4
Action
Choose one: Gain a Silver to your hand; or trash 2 Treasures from your hand to gain a Silver; or trash 2 Silvers from your hand to gain a Gold to your hand.

A Silver gainer that either nets $2 that turn or trashes 2 copper from hand. It can also trash 2 Silver later on to gain a Gold to hand. I want this to cost $4, but I am not sure if it should or not. Feedback is appreciated.

Maybe something like this is better? I think the original is quite strong. Compare your version to stuff like Moneylender or Taxman for $4, which need to have Treasures in hand to use. Moneylender is useless later on, whereas your version can permanently gain you a Silver to hand every turn if you want, as well as trashing Treasures for you.
Quote
Coin Press $4
Action
Choose one: Trash 2 Coppers from your hand to gain a Silver to your hand; or trash 2 Silvers from your hand to gain a Gold to your hand.

Maybe this isn't the right power-level anymore, but I think for $4 you should require a Treasure in hand in order to use the card.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2022, 03:09:17 pm »
+4



Crook is an Attack card that offers the player a choice of thinning two cards or gaining a Silver to hand, while turning a card in each other player's hand into a Copper. Early on, the attack won't hurt much and may actually help if they trash Estates or Curses, but it will get more painful as the game goes on and players trash their starting cards. Since the Coppers gained to hand can be repeatedly trashed, the attack usually won't stack more than once. Especially brutal if you can hit opponents with a discard attack beforehand.
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Holger

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2022, 04:54:00 pm »
+1

Here's my submission:

Crone
Action-Attack-Reaction
$3
+2 Cards
Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand gains a Curse.
-
When another player plays an attack, you may first reveal this to discard a Copper or a Curse.
Never ever a $3, otherwise you will double open without even thinking.
Looks even too strong at $4. Sure, Young Witch is weakish but it makes the attacker discards two whereas here the defender needs to discard one.

With it reacting to itself, I thought if both players open with it then you're not as likely to receive a curse at the beginning of the game and you'll draw into probably money at first too. I was on the fence on it being 3 or 4 cost though,

For finding a fair price, I would mainly look at the non-mirror. (A curser that can only be countered by mirroring it is rather uninteresting.) And in the non-mirror, this is usually a vanilla Witch, which costs $5.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2022, 08:15:10 pm »
+2



Quote
Sprite • $4 • Action - Attack - Duration
Each other player may discard a Silver from their hand, revealed; if they do not, they gain a Copper to their hand.

At the start of your next turn, you may trash a Treasure from your hand to gain a Gold.

I started with 'what if rumplestiltzkin was a card' and went from there. I guess he's technically an imp, but that's already a card. and the effects are in the wrong order for rumplestiltzkin. oh well.
One draft of this had opponent silver-flooding as the attack, but then a reverse coppersmith effect for silvers as the duration attack. I figured that was too annoying, especially in multiples.
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xyz123

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2022, 05:42:26 am »
+1

Copper Mine
Action - Duration - Attack
$3

$1

At the start of your next turn +2 Cards. Until then when any other player plays a Silver or Gold, they gain a Copper.


My thoughts and reasons behind the card.
- Before thinking about the card I had been talking about a video game arcade I used to go to when growing up. That was called The Copper Mine, so decided that is what I wanted to call the card.
- Obviously such a card has to give out Coppers, but ways that are beneficial to the player are tricky. I then thought it could be an attack that gave out Coppers.
- To make it thematic I felt it had to interact with the other treasures. I had the idea of the effect happening when you play a Silver or Gold. Something different, that could impact strategy by being in the kingdom regardless of whether it is bought or not.
- The card is now a duration attack in the same family as Haunted Woods or Swamp Hag. The next question is what benefits will it give the player. o mix it up I decided to split the benefits between the current and next turns and to split them between draw and money. I also thought it would be thematic if the card gave $1 on the current turn when played.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2022, 09:25:45 am by xyz123 »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2022, 10:48:45 am »
0

Copper Mine
Action - Duration - Attack
$3

$1

At the start of your next turn +2 Cards. Until then when any other player plays a Silver or Gold, they gain a Copper.


My thoughts and reasons behind the card.
- Before thinking about the card I had been talking about a video game arcade I used to go to when growing up. That was called The Copper Mine, so decided that is what I wanted to call the card.
- Obviously such a card has to give out Coppers, but ways that are beneficial to the player are tricky. I then thought it could be an attack that gave out Coppers.
- To make it thematic I felt it had to interact with the other treasures. I had the idea of the effect happening when you play a Silver or Gold. Something different, that could impact strategy by being in the kingdom regardless of whether it is bought or not.
- The card is now a duration attack in the same family as Haunted Woods or Swamp Hag. The next question is what benefits will it give the player. o mix it up I decided to split the benefits between the current and next turns and to split them between draw and money. I also thought it would be thematic if the card gave $1 on the current turn when played.

I'm kind of confused, is this card supposed to be a Treasure or an Action (because it says its worth 1$ but the typing is Action - Duration - Attack). Also if it's an Action, I think you made a copper junking attack that actually works, gj!
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2022, 11:08:30 am »
+1

[

Quote
Coin Press $4
Action
You may trash 2 Treasures from your hand. If both are Silver, gain a Gold to your hand. If no more than one is Silver, gain a Silver.

If you didn't trash anything, gain a Silver to your hand.

A Silver gainer that either nets $2 that turn or trashes 2 copper from hand. It can also trash 2 Silver later on to gain a Gold to hand. I want this to cost $4, but I am not sure if it should or not. Feedback is appreciated.

Edit: Adjusted wording. Should be functionally the same. You cannot only trash 1 Treasure from your hand.

You can if you only have 1 Treasure in hand. Like how you can choose to discard 2 cards with Mill even if you only have 1 card to discard (you wouldn't get the +$2). This still has the same accountability issue as before, for the same reason as before.



Quote
Sprite • $4 • Action - Attack - Duration
Each other player may discard a Silver from their hand, revealed; if they do not, they gain a Copper to their hand.

At the start of your next turn, you may trash a Treasure from your hand to gain a Gold.

This doesn't need the "revealed," that's only necessary when multiple cards can be discarded at once. Discarding a single card is public information, otherwise e.g. Cutpurse would need to say "revealed."



Crook is an Attack card that offers the player a choice of thinning two cards or gaining a Silver to hand, while turning a card in each other player's hand into a Copper. Early on, the attack won't hurt much and may actually help if they trash Estates or Curses, but it will get more painful as the game goes on and players trash their starting cards. Since the Coppers gained to hand can be repeatedly trashed, the attack usually won't stack more than once. Especially brutal if you can hit opponents with a discard attack beforehand.

This attack looks really swingy. One opponent gets to trash a Curse and another has to trash something good. Sure, this is true of e.g. Barbarian, but Barbarian gives some compensation when you trash something good instead of junking you on top.
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Xen3k

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2022, 12:22:30 pm »
0

[

Quote
Coin Press $4
Action
You may trash 2 Treasures from your hand. If both are Silver, gain a Gold to your hand. If no more than one is Silver, gain a Silver.

If you didn't trash anything, gain a Silver to your hand.

A Silver gainer that either nets $2 that turn or trashes 2 copper from hand. It can also trash 2 Silver later on to gain a Gold to hand. I want this to cost $4, but I am not sure if it should or not. Feedback is appreciated.

Edit: Adjusted wording. Should be functionally the same. You cannot only trash 1 Treasure from your hand.

You can if you only have 1 Treasure in hand. Like how you can choose to discard 2 cards with Mill even if you only have 1 card to discard (you wouldn't get the +$2). This still has the same accountability issue as before, for the same reason as before.

I was under the impression that if is says "you may", then you either do all of what it says or you don't. It says to trash 2 treasures from your hand, not up to 2. I understand how opting to discard 2 cards does not care how many cards you have in hand, but I was under the impression you would either trash two treasures or fail to do so.

I will try and change this again to avoid this ambiguity. Thanks for the feedback.
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2022, 12:30:01 pm »
+1

[

Quote
Coin Press $4
Action
You may trash 2 Treasures from your hand. If both are Silver, gain a Gold to your hand. If no more than one is Silver, gain a Silver.

If you didn't trash anything, gain a Silver to your hand.

A Silver gainer that either nets $2 that turn or trashes 2 copper from hand. It can also trash 2 Silver later on to gain a Gold to hand. I want this to cost $4, but I am not sure if it should or not. Feedback is appreciated.

Edit: Adjusted wording. Should be functionally the same. You cannot only trash 1 Treasure from your hand.

You can if you only have 1 Treasure in hand. Like how you can choose to discard 2 cards with Mill even if you only have 1 card to discard (you wouldn't get the +$2). This still has the same accountability issue as before, for the same reason as before.

I was under the impression that if is says "you may", then you either do all of what it says or you don't. It says to trash 2 treasures from your hand, not up to 2. I understand how opting to discard 2 cards does not care how many cards you have in hand, but I was under the impression you would either trash two treasures or fail to do so.

I will try and change this again to avoid this ambiguity. Thanks for the feedback.

If it says "you may," you can choose to try to do so and do as much as you can. You can't trash just 1 Treasure if you have 2 Treasures, but you can try unsuccessfully to trash 2 Treasures even if you only have 1 Treasure in hand.
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Dubdubdubdub

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2022, 02:29:11 pm »
+7

I updated my submission: Beachcombers


Quote
Beachcombers - Ally
At the start of your Buy phase, spend up to 3 Favors.
Per Favor spent, gain a Copper or an Estate to your hand.

I like this prompt a lot. It's tricky to come up with something that really adds something, after all the thought DXV has put into the base cards over the years. My mind quickly went to attack territory (as many others', it seems), but ultimately I didn't like what I made there.

Beachcombers is the kind of Dominion I like: situational and hard to optimize. It should fit quite nicely into any Copper- or Estate related strategies, and will give you a quick buck otherwise.

Update: After the following discussion, I decided to limit the gaining to 3 times per turn. Should still be enough to keep Beachcombers useful without breaking the game.

Old version:

« Last Edit: August 16, 2022, 01:31:06 pm by Dubdubdubdub »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2022, 04:18:43 pm »
+1

This is good in a Gardens game. This can be good in a Shepherd game. This would potentially be OKish in a Silk Road game if Silk Road were any good.
I don’t see any other situation in which this is any good.

A card doesn't need to be always "good" to be interesting or create interesting decisions. Beggar is not "good" most of the time but it is definitely interesting. Gang of Pickpockets is objectively harmful, but it's still a really fun Ally that makes games more interesting and brings something different to Dominion. This Ally leads to interesting decisions like taking the Copper in the opening to hit $5 (Banquet, Borrow, and Desperation all do a similar thing) or trying to earn Favors for a bunch of free Estates in the late game. Personally, I'm not sold on the "Repeat as desired" clause here as there a few Liaisons that could allow for instapiling the Estates which I don't like, but aside from that, it's definitely an interesting Ally.

If the goal of card design was always to only make cards that were always objectively good in all situations, Dominion would be a very boring game.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2022, 05:00:40 pm »
0

This is good in a Gardens game. This can be good in a Shepherd game. This would potentially be OKish in a Silk Road game if Silk Road were any good.
I don’t see any other situation in which this is any good.
It's good on any last turn of the game because it gives you 8 VP and +$8 and an empty pile for just 8 Favors.

In fact, that is so good that I think it's broken.
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emtzalex

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2022, 06:05:32 pm »
+2

This is good in a Gardens game. This can be good in a Shepherd game. This would potentially be OKish in a Silk Road game if Silk Road were any good.
I don’t see any other situation in which this is any good.
It's good on any last turn of the game because it gives you 8 VP and +$8 and an empty pile for just 8 Favors.

In fact, that is so good that I think it's broken.

It says "a Copper or an Estate" so with 8 Favors you could either get 8VP or $8, but not both.

Why (for me) it's busted is that all you have to do is play Guildmaster in order to be able to pile out both Coppers and Estates into your hand. (Each time you use a Favor to gain a card, Guildmaster gives you another Favor). Now we're talking 2 empty piles, +8VP, and +$46 (less in multiplayer games). There are a lot of scenarios where that's a guaranteed win, from playing a single card.

You can fix the Guildmaster problem by changing the wording to something like, "At the start of your Buy phase, spend any number of Favors. For each Favor spent, gain to your hand a Copper or an Estate." To the extent it's still busted for the reasons faust said, this doesn't help.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2022, 06:10:25 pm by emtzalex »
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spineflu

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2022, 07:44:18 pm »
0



Quote
Sprite • $4 • Action - Attack - Duration
Each other player may discard a Silver from their hand, revealed; if they do not, they gain a Copper to their hand.

At the start of your next turn, you may trash a Treasure from your hand to gain a Gold.


This doesn't need the "revealed," that's only necessary when multiple cards can be discarded at once. Discarding a single card is public information, otherwise e.g. Cutpurse would need to say "revealed."


i figured there'd be griping if i included it or if i didn't, so, its there. it doesn't hurt anything, its fine.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2022, 03:10:31 am »
+4

Gilders Guild
Ally
When you gain a Silver, you may spend 2 Favors to exchange it for a Gold
« Last Edit: August 17, 2022, 10:42:17 am by NoMoreFun »
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Dubdubdubdub

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2022, 03:42:47 am »
0

Why (for me) it's busted is that all you have to do is play Guildmaster in order to be able to pile out both Coppers and Estates into your hand. (Each time you use a Favor to gain a card, Guildmaster gives you another Favor). Now we're talking 2 empty piles, +8VP, and +$46 (less in multiplayer games). There are a lot of scenarios where that's a guaranteed win, from playing a single card.

You can fix the Guildmaster problem by changing the wording to something like, "At the start of your Buy phase, spend any number of Favors. For each Favor spent, gain to your hand a Copper or an Estate." To the extent it's still busted for the reasons faust said, this doesn't help.

Ah, failed to consider Guildmaster again. Not my first time!

Thanks for your thoughts on this one! I agree the card(-shaped thing) needs some limit. I originally found it interesting that this could piledrive the Estates. In a mirror, it might not be a big issue - it's about who bites the bullet when, kind of like a Gathering pile. But outside of a mirror, I'm afraid it's a bit too much.

I'll update my submission now to limit the effect to 3 times per turn. This might seem arbitrary, but I think it's just right. +3 coppers to hand is just the amount of kick a player can use for a big move, and 3 per turn should still be enough for to be useful in any situation where you might want lots of Coppers or Estates.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2022, 12:45:11 pm »
+2

My Submission:



Quote
Amphitheater • $5 • Action
+3 Cards
Discard a card. If it was an...
Action card, +1 Action
Treasure card, +1 Buy
Curse, discard a card
Gold, +$1

My submission is Amphitheater a drawer/sifter that is conditionally non-terminal, and which both makes you consider whether you want to sift what you normally would (e.g. Victory cards) and somewhat lessens the sting when you can't (e.g. when you only have Treasures and Action cards). I've played with this concept before, with just the first two conditional effects (and, last time I submitted it, a fan mechanic effect). Adding the two additional effects for the base cards makes it a little more interesting. Getting $1 back from Gold makes discarding it no worse than discarding a Silver (and fits with the lessening the sting theme). Making you discard another card for discarding a Curse (effectively not letting a Curse be the card you sift) fits with the sift-something-different theme.1

One of the things I like about this is how its conditionally non-terminal. The reason Laboratory is so much better than Moat (and, therefore, costs way more despite Moat's useful Reaction) is that you can play the Action cards you draw after playing a Lab, but not (without a village) the ones you draw after playing a Moat. But, on any given play of one card or the other, the distinction only matters if you have Action cards in your hand afterwards. If you end up with no Action cards, Lab is no better than Moat. With Amphitheater, in order for it to be meaningfully non-terminal, you need to have at least 2 Action cards in your hand after you draw (you also need to give up the use of one of them unless it has an on-discard Reaction).

FAQ:
If you discard a Gold, you get both the +1 Buy (for discarding a Treasure card) and the +$1.
If you discard a Curse, the second card you discard does not give you any of the bonus effects. So, if you discard a Curse, then discard a Copper, you don't get +1 Buy.



1 There is at least one circumstance where this could be a benefit. If your opponent played a Haunted Woods and you've drawn both a Curse and a Victory card, you can discard the Curse to also rid yourself of the Victory card (and not have it go back on your deck when you buy a card during your Buy phase).
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2022, 12:51:03 pm »
+2

My Submission:



Quote
Amphitheater • $5 • Action
+3 Cards
Discard a card. If it was an...
Action card, +1 Action
Treasure card, +1 Buy
Curse, discard a card
Gold, +$1

My submission is Amphitheater a drawer/sifter that is conditionally non-terminal, and which both makes you consider whether you want to sift what you normally would (e.g. Victory cards) and somewhat lessens the sting when you can't (e.g. when you only have Treasures and Action cards). I've played with this concept before, with just the first two conditional effects (and, last time I submitted it, a fan mechanic effect). Adding the two additional effects for the base cards makes it a little more interesting. Getting $1 back from Gold makes discarding it no worse than discarding a Silver (and fits with the lessening the sting theme). Making you discard another card for discarding a Curse (effectively not letting a Curse be the card you sift) fits with the sift-something-different theme.1

One of the things I like about this is how its conditionally non-terminal. The reason Laboratory is so much better than Moat (and, therefore, costs way more despite Moat's useful Reaction) is that you can play the Action cards you draw after playing a Lab, but not (without a village) the ones you draw after playing a Moat. But, on any given play of one card or the other, the distinction only matters if you have Action cards in your hand afterwards. If you end up with no Action cards, Lab is no better than Moat. With Amphitheater, in order for it to be meaningfully non-terminal, you need to have at least 2 Action cards in your hand after you draw (you also need to give up the use of one of them unless it has an on-discard Reaction).

FAQ:
If you discard a Gold, you get both the +1 Buy (for discarding a Treasure card) and the +$1.
If you discard a Curse, the second card you discard does not give you any of the bonus effects. So, if you discard a Curse, then discard a Copper, you don't get +1 Buy.



1 There is at least one circumstance where this could be a benefit. If your opponent played a Haunted Woods and you've drawn both a Curse and a Victory card, you can discard the Curse to also rid yourself of the Victory card (and not have it go back on your deck when you buy a card during your Buy phase).

Since the discarding is mandatory, this honestly looks weaker than vanilla Smithy imo.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2022, 11:09:27 pm »
+4

Moray


Worth 1 VP per 2 coppers
Heirloom: Silver
$7 Victory

Like Feodum and Counting house, this card will alternate between a powerhouse, and useless. But unlike those cards this Moray will always had a large impact on the start of each game by replacing one of the starting coppers with a silver.
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Holger

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2022, 08:46:50 am »
+3

Moray


Worth 1 VP per 2 coppers
Heirloom: Silver
$7 Victory

Like Feodum and Counting house, this card will alternate between a powerhouse, and useless. But unlike those cards this Moray will always had a large impact on the start of each game by replacing one of the starting coppers with a silver.

I fear this will only be a powerhouse with Beggar (and possibly Banquet), and be useless at least 95% of the time.
In the absence of Beggar, I'd try this at $4, so it would at least be a cheaper Duchy (with the potential to get extra VPs from late-game copper buys) in games where you can't trash coppers. You already need to buy three Morays to get the same 15 VP with 10 coppers that Fountain gives you for free.

Replacing a starting Copper by Silver is problematic because a 5/3 opening is usually much stronger than a 4/4 opening. And Moray would be stronger without an Heirloom attached...
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n_sanity

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2022, 10:57:40 am »
+1

Moray


Worth 1 VP per 2 coppers
Heirloom: Silver
$7 Victory

Like Feodum and Counting house, this card will alternate between a powerhouse, and useless. But unlike those cards this Moray will always had a large impact on the start of each game by replacing one of the starting coppers with a silver.

I'm not sure if you're allowed to use a non-Heirloom card as an Heirloom. At the very least, it's inconsistent with the rest of the Heirloom cards. Although I understand why it's done for this contest.

I do think it's a little weak for $7 and could probably cost $5 or $6. In almost all games this is going to feel under-powered. Compare with Feodum which counts (3) Silvers, and consider the fact that you count (2) Coppers instead, which are much weaker than Silver. In games with Beggar or something similar, this is going to be busted no matter what you cost it at, so I'd focus more on giving this a reasonable cost for the vast majority of games where there is no good combo with Copper gainers.


I fear this will only be a powerhouse with Beggar (and possibly Banquet), and be useless at least 95% of the time.
In the absence of Beggar, I'd try this at $4, so it would at least be a cheaper Duchy (with the potential to get extra VPs from late-game copper buys) in games where you can't trash coppers. You already need to buy three Morays to get the same 15 VP with 10 coppers that Fountain gives you for free.

Replacing a starting Copper by Silver is problematic because a 5/3 opening is usually much stronger than a 4/4 opening. And Moray would be stronger without an Heirloom attached...

Stuff like "Baker" or "Cursed Gold" already changes the opening like this does, and neither of them have broken the game...
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AJL828

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2022, 11:13:02 am »
+2

Moray


Worth 1 VP per 2 coppers
Heirloom: Silver
$7 Victory

Like Feodum and Counting house, this card will alternate between a powerhouse, and useless. But unlike those cards this Moray will always had a large impact on the start of each game by replacing one of the starting coppers with a silver.

I'm not sure if you're allowed to use a non-Heirloom card as an Heirloom. At the very least, it's inconsistent with the rest of the Heirloom cards. Although I understand why it's done for this contest.

I do think it's a little weak for $7 and could probably cost $5 or $6. In almost all games this is going to feel under-powered. Compare with Feodum which counts (3) Silvers, and consider the fact that you count (2) Coppers instead, which are much weaker than Silver. In games with Beggar or something similar, this is going to be busted no matter what you cost it at, so I'd focus more on giving this a reasonable cost for the vast majority of games where there is no good combo with Copper gainers.


I fear this will only be a powerhouse with Beggar (and possibly Banquet), and be useless at least 95% of the time.
In the absence of Beggar, I'd try this at $4, so it would at least be a cheaper Duchy (with the potential to get extra VPs from late-game copper buys) in games where you can't trash coppers. You already need to buy three Morays to get the same 15 VP with 10 coppers that Fountain gives you for free.

Replacing a starting Copper by Silver is problematic because a 5/3 opening is usually much stronger than a 4/4 opening. And Moray would be stronger without an Heirloom attached...

Stuff like "Baker" or "Cursed Gold" already changes the opening like this does, and neither of them have broken the game...

The difference with Baker/Cursed Gold over a Silver is that they both allow you to guarantee a $5 hand on one of your opening turns (and even then Cursed Gold is still kind of annoying). But with a Silver one player could gain a big starting lead by lining up the Silver with enough Coppers and having their opponent miss the same opportunity due to pure chance. This does happen normally with 5/2 vs 4/3 but 5/3 vs 4/4 is worse in that regard.
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n_sanity

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2022, 11:15:05 am »
0

Moray


Worth 1 VP per 2 coppers
Heirloom: Silver
$7 Victory

Like Feodum and Counting house, this card will alternate between a powerhouse, and useless. But unlike those cards this Moray will always had a large impact on the start of each game by replacing one of the starting coppers with a silver.

I'm not sure if you're allowed to use a non-Heirloom card as an Heirloom. At the very least, it's inconsistent with the rest of the Heirloom cards. Although I understand why it's done for this contest.

I do think it's a little weak for $7 and could probably cost $5 or $6. In almost all games this is going to feel under-powered. Compare with Feodum which counts (3) Silvers, and consider the fact that you count (2) Coppers instead, which are much weaker than Silver. In games with Beggar or something similar, this is going to be busted no matter what you cost it at, so I'd focus more on giving this a reasonable cost for the vast majority of games where there is no good combo with Copper gainers.


I fear this will only be a powerhouse with Beggar (and possibly Banquet), and be useless at least 95% of the time.
In the absence of Beggar, I'd try this at $4, so it would at least be a cheaper Duchy (with the potential to get extra VPs from late-game copper buys) in games where you can't trash coppers. You already need to buy three Morays to get the same 15 VP with 10 coppers that Fountain gives you for free.

Replacing a starting Copper by Silver is problematic because a 5/3 opening is usually much stronger than a 4/4 opening. And Moray would be stronger without an Heirloom attached...

Stuff like "Baker" or "Cursed Gold" already changes the opening like this does, and neither of them have broken the game...

The difference with Baker/Cursed Gold over a Silver is that they both allow you to guarantee a $5 hand on one of your opening turns (and even then Cursed Gold is still kind of annoying). But with a Silver one player could gain a big starting lead by lining up the Silver with enough Coppers and having their opponent miss the same opportunity due to pure chance. This does happen normally with 5/2 vs 4/3 but 5/3 vs 4/4 is worse in that regard.

Fair point, I missed that when thinking about the opening.
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AJL828

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2022, 11:21:16 am »
+6



Forest Village

Action ($4)

+1 Card
+2 Actions

Reveal your hand. If you revealed no Coppers, Silvers, or Golds, +1 Card.

A village+ that can be a Lost City if you have no Copper, Silver, or Gold in your hand. I thought about a few different iterations of this card ($3 vs $4 for a cantrip vs Village, and also whether or not the condition should be the reverse; reveal at least 1 of each Treasure) and this one stuck out as being the best. It rewards players who trash heavily while still being at least a Village if that isn't possible. It also encourages newer players to try out engine strategies and Kingdom Treasures.
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