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Author Topic: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards  (Read 4382 times)

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scott_pilgrim

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Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« on: August 12, 2022, 08:54:31 pm »
+8

This week's challenge:

Design a card/landscape that contains the names of two base cards in the body of its text.

Base cards include Copper, Silver, Gold, Estate, Duchy, Province, Curse, Potion, Platinum, and Colony. I recommend against using Platinum or Colony, as they won't be present in every game; but if you can find a way to make it work, they are options.

Official card-shaped things that would qualify include Count, Bandit Fort, and Explorer (explorer even names three!).

My judging will mostly be based on simplicity and novelty. I will allow things like split piles, but the more things I have to read the grumpier I will be and therefore you will be less likely to win. I will not be too concerned about balance, as long as I think the card is balanceable with reasonable changes.

Some other clarifications:
  • Naming the same base card twice is not sufficient.
  • If you use multiple cards (e.g. a split pile), at least one individual card must have two or more base cards named on it.
  • Designing a new doom card does not automatically qualify just because hexes have two or more base cards on them. But you could design a new hex (like Locusts) that has two or more base cards on it. Similarly for Fate cards/Boons.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2022, 02:13:57 pm by scott_pilgrim »
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Augie279

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2022, 09:50:24 pm »
+5



Simple but encourages buying Duchies a bit early, which... well, good luck pulling the second Gold off, I guess.

Edit: Cost changed from $5 to $6
« Last Edit: August 13, 2022, 04:16:57 pm by Augie279 »
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majiponi

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2022, 12:35:46 am »
+1

Midas
cost $8 - Project
When you trash a card, if it is a ...
Treasure card, exchange it for a Copper
Victory card, exchange it for a Silver
Action card, exchange it for a Gold

He protects you from trashing Attacks. Once I tried exchanging a card costing up to $4, but that was crazy with Highways and a Chapel.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2022, 12:42:47 am »
+4



A cheap way to gain Provinces without even needing to spend a buy! But at what cost...
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Builder_Roberts

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2022, 02:23:12 am »
+5

I don't expect to win this one.

Quote
Lure - Event - $3
+1 Buy
Gain a Gold and a Curse.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2022, 11:29:13 am »
+1

This looks too good compared to Explorer and Pirate. Pirate is only better as it can gain $5 Treasures but that does not compensate for the immediate hand-gaining.

Explorer's removed so I don't see a reason to care about that. Pirate's Reaction allows it to be non-terminal... not all the time, but a good amount of the time, where this will just never be.
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2022, 11:44:17 am »
+7

My Submission:


This looks too good compared to Explorer and Pirate. Pirate is only better as it can gain $5 Treasures but that does not compensate for the immediate hand-gaining.

Explorer's removed so I don't see a reason to care about that. Pirate's Reaction allows it to be non-terminal... not all the time, but a good amount of the time, where this will just never be.

1. I don't know how much you care about this, but Donald avoids making cards that are strictly better than existing cards even if said existing card has been removed. Pot of Gold is almost strictly better than Explorer.
2. Pirate's Reaction allows it to be non-terminal sometimes, and sometimes allows you to get the Gold immediately. Pot of Gold always allows you to get the Gold immediately, at the cost of always being terminal; I'd argue that always being terminal is worth always being able to use it immediately. There are also other Gold gainers to compare Pot of Gold to; I don't think any of the benefits the other Gold gainers get over gaining a Gold are on the same level as gaining it to hand; Pirate is delayed, Soothsayer gives out Curses but also a one-time Lab effect to your opponents, Bandit has an okay attack, Courtier requires collision with a multi-type card to get further benefit out of it, Treasure Trove is non-terminal, but produces $2 instead of $3 and junks you with a Copper, and Governor is non-terminal but also gives opponents a benefit, and doesn't even gain the Gold to hand. Gaining the Gold to hand is a better benefit over just gaining Gold than any other Gold gainer (except maybe Governor, which is S-tier anyway)--and that's just the gain to hand part, not even taking the ability to gain a 2nd Gold to hand into account!
Pirate sometimes having a benefit over Pot of Gold doesn't justify making Pot of Gold outclass it otherwise.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2022, 11:45:39 am by Gubump »
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arowdok

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2022, 01:38:37 pm »
+1

Judge to be clear we are to make a card(s) that uses 2 or more named base cards or exactly 2 named base cards?

Also might be useful for other people here is the full lists of official cards that reference Base Cards

Names 6 Base cards
Alliance

Names 4 Base cards
Castles

Names 3 Base cards
Explorer, Palace

Hexes(Bad Omens, Envious, Greed, Locusts, Plague) - I don't want to count this but the deck of Hexes reference 3 base cards, so all Doom cards reference at least 3.

Names 2 Base cards
Apothecary, Aqueduct, Augurs, Bandit, Bandit Fort, Beggar, Corsair, Count, Enclave, Fool's Gold, Governor, Hunting Grounds, Ill-Gotten Gains,  Mountebank, Noble Brigand, Quest, Soothsayer, Tournament(Prizes) Transmute, Treasure Trove

Boons (The Mountain's Gift + The Sea's Gift) - I don't want to count this but the deck of Boons reference 2 base cards, so all Fate cards reference at least 2.

Names 1 Base card
Alchemist, Amulet, Annex, Banquet, Barbarian, Baron, Black Cat, Blockade, Bonfire, Bureaucrat, Cache, Camel Train, Cauldron, Charlatan, Circle of Witches, Commerce, Conquest, Coppersmith, Courtier, Counting House, Coven, Cursed Gold, Cutpurse, Defiled Shrine, Delve, Desperation, Devil's Workshop, Dismantle, Distant Shore, Dominate, Ducat, Duchess, Duke, Embargo, Embassy, Encampment, Familiar, Feodum, Fortune, Fortune Teller, Fountain, Giant, Grand Market, Groom, Hideout, Hoard, Idol, Inheritance, Jack of All Trades, Jester, Legionary, Leprechaun, Lucky Coin, Market Square, Merchant, Miser, Monastery, Moneylender, Mountain Pass, Old Witch, Pasture, Raid, Reap, Replace, Rocks, Royal Blacksmith, Sauna, Scrap, Sea Hag, Sea Witch, Settlers, Silos, Skulk, Sorcerer, Squire, Swamp Hag, Territory, Torturer, Town Crier, Trade, Trader, Trading Post, Treasure Chest, Treasure Hunter, Treasure Map, Triumph, Tunnel, Vagrant, Way of the Camel, Way of the Worm, Wayfarer, Weaver, Wedding, Wild Hunt, Windfall, Witch, Witch's Hut, Young Witch
« Last Edit: August 13, 2022, 03:26:21 pm by arowdok »
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2022, 02:13:16 pm »
0

Judge to be clear we are to make a card(s) that uses 2 or more named base cards or exactly 2 named base cards?

It can use two or more base cards.

Some other clarifications (I'll update the OP):
  • Naming the same base card twice is not sufficient.
  • If you use multiple cards (e.g. a split pile), at least one individual card must have two or more base cards named on it.
  • Designing a new doom card does not automatically qualify just because hexes have two or more base cards on them. But you could design a new hex (like Locusts) that has two or more base cards on it. Similarly for Fate cards/Boons.

Names 3 Base cards
Bandit Fort

I'm not sure how you counted 3 base cards for Bandit Fort?
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Marpharos

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2022, 02:50:16 pm »
+1

 Here's my submission:

Crone
Action-Attack-Reaction
$5
+2 Cards
Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand gains a Curse.
-
When another player plays an attack, you may first reveal this to discard a Copper or a Curse.


Edits. Updated price from $3 to $5
« Last Edit: August 18, 2022, 12:08:31 pm by Marpharos »
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arowdok

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2022, 03:24:46 pm »
0

Names 3 Base cards
Bandit Fort
I'm not sure how you counted 3 base cards for Bandit Fort?

My mistake I will update previous post.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2022, 03:25:50 pm by arowdok »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2022, 03:42:10 pm »
+2

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Builder_Roberts

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2022, 03:48:37 pm »
0

Quote
Lure - Event - $3
+1 Buy
Gain a Gold and a Curse.
I like this but wonder whether this is intentionally not conditional like Desperation.
Yeah, it's intentionally not conditional so that once the curses are gone Golds cost $3 for everyone. I think that's more interactive and fun.
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nyxfulloftricks

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2022, 03:58:32 pm »
+5



Quote
Ledger
$5
Action
+1 Action
Reveal your hand, +$1 per revealed Copper, +1 Card per revealed Estate.
Gain a Copper and an Estate.
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arowdok

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2022, 04:26:06 pm »
+1



If both Curse and Estate piles are empty or either pile is empty, do players still get the +3VP?
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arowdok

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2022, 04:52:37 pm »
+1

This looks too good compared to Explorer and Pirate. Pirate is only better as it can gain $5 Treasures but that does not compensate for the immediate hand-gaining.

Explorer's removed so I don't see a reason to care about that. Pirate's Reaction allows it to be non-terminal... not all the time, but a good amount of the time, where this will just never be.

I agree with segura this card is a bit too pushed as Pirate is the only card the gains Gold to hand and is much more compare able to Swamp Hag as it is a duration effect. Courtier basically gains a Gold to hand, with its +$3 and gain a Gold, if they have 2+ typed card. Even comparing this card to the other just Terminal +$3 cards this card is quite a bit stronger. See bellow
Stronghold - Cost $6 but does some very uncomparable stuff
Giant - Only trigger half the time
Poor House/Souk - Needs a small hand
Mandarin/Horse Traders - self discard
Wine Merchant - Self kills after use
Sacred Grove - Help opponents quite often
Galleria/Guildmaster/Livery - these require doing something to get there bonus and there bonus is a much smaller reward then a Gold.
And all these comparisons are assuming player never uses the Duchy clause, just Gain a gold to hand for $5 is far too strong.

Overall I like your simple Gold gainer but the floor is too strong. You might try a card that gains the 1st Gold to the discard pile, but if a Duchy is discarded put the 2nd Gold into the hand.

Also if possible to reword the card to make it clear that the player gains 2 Golds as I misread the card the first time and I assumed only 1 Gold was to be gained and the Discarded Duchy just moved the 1 gained Gold into hand.
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kru5h

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2022, 05:13:21 pm »
+5

Financier

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2022, 05:14:46 pm »
0

If both Curse and Estate piles are empty or either pile is empty, do players still get the +3VP?

You do as much as you can, but you must gain both an Estate AND a Curse for you to fulfill the +3 condition
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n_sanity

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2022, 12:06:31 am »
+6



A Nocturne-inspired card. Based on Werewolf, but I tried to capture the "weakness to Silver" feeling that a Werewolf normally has. Maybe a bit too wordy.

I think the early Silver for opponents, plus the fact that it's conditional make it balanced, although it being non-terminal Curser for $4 might be a bit too much. Let me know what you all think.

EDIT: Added "Attack" type.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2022, 11:34:14 am by n_sanity »
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Marpharos

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2022, 03:21:43 am »
0

Here's my submission:

Crone
Action-Attack-Reaction
$3
+2 Cards
Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand gains a Curse.
-
When another player plays an attack, you may first reveal this to discard a Copper or a Curse.
Never ever a $3, otherwise you will double open without even thinking.
Looks even too strong at $4. Sure, Young Witch is weakish but it makes the attacker discards two whereas here the defender needs to discard one.

With it reacting to itself, I thought if both players open with it then you're not as likely to receive a curse at the beginning of the game and you'll draw into probably money at first too. I was on the fence on it being 3 or 4 cost though,
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Xen3k

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2022, 08:20:11 am »
0



A Nocturne-inspired card. Based on Werewolf, but I tried to capture the "weakness to Silver" feeling that a Werewolf normally has. Maybe a bit too wordy.

I think the early Silver for opponents, plus the fact that it's conditional make it balanced, although it being non-terminal for $4 might be a bit too much. Let me know what you all think.

This does need the Attack type. Otherwise nice concept.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2022, 09:01:31 am »
+3


Quote
Old City
+2 Cards
+2 Actions


When you gain this, gain an Estate or 2 Copper.
Simple Lost City variant that junks the buyer rather than helping all other players. Assuming you draw your new junk with this card (which likely isn't the case), you have a choice between a village or a festival without the buy.
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n_sanity

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2022, 09:48:37 am »
+1



A Nocturne-inspired card. Based on Werewolf, but I tried to capture the "weakness to Silver" feeling that a Werewolf normally has. Maybe a bit too wordy.

I think the early Silver for opponents, plus the fact that it's conditional make it balanced, although it being non-terminal for $4 might be a bit too much. Let me know what you all think.

This does need the Attack type. Otherwise nice concept.

Thanks, good catch, fixed in my post.
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Xen3k

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2022, 09:49:12 am »
+2



Quote
Coin Press $4
Action
You may gain a Silver to your hand. If you didn't, trash 2 Treasures from your hand (or reveal you can't). If both are Silver, gain a Gold to your hand. If both aren't Silver, gain a Silver.

A Silver gainer that either nets $2 that turn or trashes 2 copper from hand. It can also trash 2 Silver later on to gain a Gold to hand. I want this to cost $4, but I am not sure if it should or not. Feedback is appreciated.

Edit: Adjusted wording. Should be functionally the same. You cannot only trash 1 Treasure from your hand.

Edit 2:Changed the wording again. Should have fixed the accountability issue now. Slight functional change where the second half should only trigger when 2 treasures are actually trashed. Shouldn't have to big an impact on use. Thanks goes to Gubump for helping point out the accountability issue.

Old Versions

« Last Edit: August 15, 2022, 01:04:31 pm by Xen3k »
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2022, 12:44:31 pm »
0



Quote
Coin Press $4
Action
Choose one: Gain a Silver to your hand; or trash 2 Treasures from your hand to gain a Silver; or trash 2 Silvers from your hand to gain a Gold to your hand.

A Silver gainer that either nets $2 that turn or trashes 2 copper from hand. It can also trash 2 Silver later on to gain a Gold to hand. I want this to cost $4, but I am not sure if it should or not. Feedback is appreciated.

As worded, this has accountability issues. I'd have a good reason to trash a Copper from my hand with no other Treasures in hand, which this allows you to do but lacks accountability for.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2022, 01:11:23 pm »
0



Quote
Coin Press $4
Action
Choose one: Gain a Silver to your hand; or trash 2 Treasures from your hand to gain a Silver; or trash 2 Silvers from your hand to gain a Gold to your hand.

A Silver gainer that either nets $2 that turn or trashes 2 copper from hand. It can also trash 2 Silver later on to gain a Gold to hand. I want this to cost $4, but I am not sure if it should or not. Feedback is appreciated.

As worded, this has accountability issues. I'd have a good reason to trash a Copper from my hand with no other Treasures in hand, which this allows you to do but lacks accountability for.

That is true, but you would not gain a Silver from it, so it would be playing an Action to trash a Copper. I don't think that is very powerful for a $4 cost card, but that does add to the flexibility of the card. Do you think that is something that needs fixing?

Edit: On second thought I understand better the issue. I will try and rework the wording on for the second option, but I really don't want this to be more wordy... May just modify the design.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2022, 01:22:29 pm by Xen3k »
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n_sanity

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2022, 02:41:23 pm »
+1



Quote
Coin Press $4
Action
Choose one: Gain a Silver to your hand; or trash 2 Treasures from your hand to gain a Silver; or trash 2 Silvers from your hand to gain a Gold to your hand.

A Silver gainer that either nets $2 that turn or trashes 2 copper from hand. It can also trash 2 Silver later on to gain a Gold to hand. I want this to cost $4, but I am not sure if it should or not. Feedback is appreciated.

Maybe something like this is better? I think the original is quite strong. Compare your version to stuff like Moneylender or Taxman for $4, which need to have Treasures in hand to use. Moneylender is useless later on, whereas your version can permanently gain you a Silver to hand every turn if you want, as well as trashing Treasures for you.
Quote
Coin Press $4
Action
Choose one: Trash 2 Coppers from your hand to gain a Silver to your hand; or trash 2 Silvers from your hand to gain a Gold to your hand.

Maybe this isn't the right power-level anymore, but I think for $4 you should require a Treasure in hand in order to use the card.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2022, 03:09:17 pm »
+4



Crook is an Attack card that offers the player a choice of thinning two cards or gaining a Silver to hand, while turning a card in each other player's hand into a Copper. Early on, the attack won't hurt much and may actually help if they trash Estates or Curses, but it will get more painful as the game goes on and players trash their starting cards. Since the Coppers gained to hand can be repeatedly trashed, the attack usually won't stack more than once. Especially brutal if you can hit opponents with a discard attack beforehand.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2022, 04:54:00 pm »
+1

Here's my submission:

Crone
Action-Attack-Reaction
$3
+2 Cards
Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand gains a Curse.
-
When another player plays an attack, you may first reveal this to discard a Copper or a Curse.
Never ever a $3, otherwise you will double open without even thinking.
Looks even too strong at $4. Sure, Young Witch is weakish but it makes the attacker discards two whereas here the defender needs to discard one.

With it reacting to itself, I thought if both players open with it then you're not as likely to receive a curse at the beginning of the game and you'll draw into probably money at first too. I was on the fence on it being 3 or 4 cost though,

For finding a fair price, I would mainly look at the non-mirror. (A curser that can only be countered by mirroring it is rather uninteresting.) And in the non-mirror, this is usually a vanilla Witch, which costs $5.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2022, 08:15:10 pm »
+2



Quote
Sprite ē $4 ē Action - Attack - Duration
Each other player may discard a Silver from their hand, revealed; if they do not, they gain a Copper to their hand.

At the start of your next turn, you may trash a Treasure from your hand to gain a Gold.

I started with 'what if rumplestiltzkin was a card' and went from there. I guess he's technically an imp, but that's already a card. and the effects are in the wrong order for rumplestiltzkin. oh well.
One draft of this had opponent silver-flooding as the attack, but then a reverse coppersmith effect for silvers as the duration attack. I figured that was too annoying, especially in multiples.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2022, 05:42:26 am »
+1

Copper Mine
Action - Duration - Attack
$3

$1

At the start of your next turn +2 Cards. Until then when any other player plays a Silver or Gold, they gain a Copper.


My thoughts and reasons behind the card.
- Before thinking about the card I had been talking about a video game arcade I used to go to when growing up. That was called The Copper Mine, so decided that is what I wanted to call the card.
- Obviously such a card has to give out Coppers, but ways that are beneficial to the player are tricky. I then thought it could be an attack that gave out Coppers.
- To make it thematic I felt it had to interact with the other treasures. I had the idea of the effect happening when you play a Silver or Gold. Something different, that could impact strategy by being in the kingdom regardless of whether it is bought or not.
- The card is now a duration attack in the same family as Haunted Woods or Swamp Hag. The next question is what benefits will it give the player. o mix it up I decided to split the benefits between the current and next turns and to split them between draw and money. I also thought it would be thematic if the card gave $1 on the current turn when played.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2022, 09:25:45 am by xyz123 »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2022, 10:48:45 am »
0

Copper Mine
Action - Duration - Attack
$3

$1

At the start of your next turn +2 Cards. Until then when any other player plays a Silver or Gold, they gain a Copper.


My thoughts and reasons behind the card.
- Before thinking about the card I had been talking about a video game arcade I used to go to when growing up. That was called The Copper Mine, so decided that is what I wanted to call the card.
- Obviously such a card has to give out Coppers, but ways that are beneficial to the player are tricky. I then thought it could be an attack that gave out Coppers.
- To make it thematic I felt it had to interact with the other treasures. I had the idea of the effect happening when you play a Silver or Gold. Something different, that could impact strategy by being in the kingdom regardless of whether it is bought or not.
- The card is now a duration attack in the same family as Haunted Woods or Swamp Hag. The next question is what benefits will it give the player. o mix it up I decided to split the benefits between the current and next turns and to split them between draw and money. I also thought it would be thematic if the card gave $1 on the current turn when played.

I'm kind of confused, is this card supposed to be a Treasure or an Action (because it says its worth 1$ but the typing is Action - Duration - Attack). Also if it's an Action, I think you made a copper junking attack that actually works, gj!
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2022, 11:08:30 am »
+1

[

Quote
Coin Press $4
Action
You may trash 2 Treasures from your hand. If both are Silver, gain a Gold to your hand. If no more than one is Silver, gain a Silver.

If you didn't trash anything, gain a Silver to your hand.

A Silver gainer that either nets $2 that turn or trashes 2 copper from hand. It can also trash 2 Silver later on to gain a Gold to hand. I want this to cost $4, but I am not sure if it should or not. Feedback is appreciated.

Edit: Adjusted wording. Should be functionally the same. You cannot only trash 1 Treasure from your hand.

You can if you only have 1 Treasure in hand. Like how you can choose to discard 2 cards with Mill even if you only have 1 card to discard (you wouldn't get the +$2). This still has the same accountability issue as before, for the same reason as before.



Quote
Sprite ē $4 ē Action - Attack - Duration
Each other player may discard a Silver from their hand, revealed; if they do not, they gain a Copper to their hand.

At the start of your next turn, you may trash a Treasure from your hand to gain a Gold.

This doesn't need the "revealed," that's only necessary when multiple cards can be discarded at once. Discarding a single card is public information, otherwise e.g. Cutpurse would need to say "revealed."



Crook is an Attack card that offers the player a choice of thinning two cards or gaining a Silver to hand, while turning a card in each other player's hand into a Copper. Early on, the attack won't hurt much and may actually help if they trash Estates or Curses, but it will get more painful as the game goes on and players trash their starting cards. Since the Coppers gained to hand can be repeatedly trashed, the attack usually won't stack more than once. Especially brutal if you can hit opponents with a discard attack beforehand.

This attack looks really swingy. One opponent gets to trash a Curse and another has to trash something good. Sure, this is true of e.g. Barbarian, but Barbarian gives some compensation when you trash something good instead of junking you on top.
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Xen3k

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2022, 12:22:30 pm »
0

[

Quote
Coin Press $4
Action
You may trash 2 Treasures from your hand. If both are Silver, gain a Gold to your hand. If no more than one is Silver, gain a Silver.

If you didn't trash anything, gain a Silver to your hand.

A Silver gainer that either nets $2 that turn or trashes 2 copper from hand. It can also trash 2 Silver later on to gain a Gold to hand. I want this to cost $4, but I am not sure if it should or not. Feedback is appreciated.

Edit: Adjusted wording. Should be functionally the same. You cannot only trash 1 Treasure from your hand.

You can if you only have 1 Treasure in hand. Like how you can choose to discard 2 cards with Mill even if you only have 1 card to discard (you wouldn't get the +$2). This still has the same accountability issue as before, for the same reason as before.

I was under the impression that if is says "you may", then you either do all of what it says or you don't. It says to trash 2 treasures from your hand, not up to 2. I understand how opting to discard 2 cards does not care how many cards you have in hand, but I was under the impression you would either trash two treasures or fail to do so.

I will try and change this again to avoid this ambiguity. Thanks for the feedback.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2022, 12:30:01 pm »
+1

[

Quote
Coin Press $4
Action
You may trash 2 Treasures from your hand. If both are Silver, gain a Gold to your hand. If no more than one is Silver, gain a Silver.

If you didn't trash anything, gain a Silver to your hand.

A Silver gainer that either nets $2 that turn or trashes 2 copper from hand. It can also trash 2 Silver later on to gain a Gold to hand. I want this to cost $4, but I am not sure if it should or not. Feedback is appreciated.

Edit: Adjusted wording. Should be functionally the same. You cannot only trash 1 Treasure from your hand.

You can if you only have 1 Treasure in hand. Like how you can choose to discard 2 cards with Mill even if you only have 1 card to discard (you wouldn't get the +$2). This still has the same accountability issue as before, for the same reason as before.

I was under the impression that if is says "you may", then you either do all of what it says or you don't. It says to trash 2 treasures from your hand, not up to 2. I understand how opting to discard 2 cards does not care how many cards you have in hand, but I was under the impression you would either trash two treasures or fail to do so.

I will try and change this again to avoid this ambiguity. Thanks for the feedback.

If it says "you may," you can choose to try to do so and do as much as you can. You can't trash just 1 Treasure if you have 2 Treasures, but you can try unsuccessfully to trash 2 Treasures even if you only have 1 Treasure in hand.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2022, 02:29:11 pm »
+7

I updated my submission: Beachcombers


Quote
Beachcombers - Ally
At the start of your Buy phase, spend up to 3 Favors.
Per Favor spent, gain a Copper or an Estate to your hand.

I like this prompt a lot. It's tricky to come up with something that really adds something, after all the thought DXV has put into the base cards over the years. My mind quickly went to attack territory (as many others', it seems), but ultimately I didn't like what I made there.

Beachcombers is the kind of Dominion I like: situational and hard to optimize. It should fit quite nicely into any Copper- or Estate related strategies, and will give you a quick buck otherwise.

Update: After the following discussion, I decided to limit the gaining to 3 times per turn. Should still be enough to keep Beachcombers useful without breaking the game.

Old version:

« Last Edit: August 16, 2022, 01:31:06 pm by Dubdubdubdub »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2022, 04:18:43 pm »
+1

This is good in a Gardens game. This can be good in a Shepherd game. This would potentially be OKish in a Silk Road game if Silk Road were any good.
I donít see any other situation in which this is any good.

A card doesn't need to be always "good" to be interesting or create interesting decisions. Beggar is not "good" most of the time but it is definitely interesting. Gang of Pickpockets is objectively harmful, but it's still a really fun Ally that makes games more interesting and brings something different to Dominion. This Ally leads to interesting decisions like taking the Copper in the opening to hit $5 (Banquet, Borrow, and Desperation all do a similar thing) or trying to earn Favors for a bunch of free Estates in the late game. Personally, I'm not sold on the "Repeat as desired" clause here as there a few Liaisons that could allow for instapiling the Estates which I don't like, but aside from that, it's definitely an interesting Ally.

If the goal of card design was always to only make cards that were always objectively good in all situations, Dominion would be a very boring game.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2022, 05:00:40 pm »
0

This is good in a Gardens game. This can be good in a Shepherd game. This would potentially be OKish in a Silk Road game if Silk Road were any good.
I donít see any other situation in which this is any good.
It's good on any last turn of the game because it gives you 8 VP and +$8 and an empty pile for just 8 Favors.

In fact, that is so good that I think it's broken.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2022, 06:05:32 pm »
+2

This is good in a Gardens game. This can be good in a Shepherd game. This would potentially be OKish in a Silk Road game if Silk Road were any good.
I don’t see any other situation in which this is any good.
It's good on any last turn of the game because it gives you 8 VP and +$8 and an empty pile for just 8 Favors.

In fact, that is so good that I think it's broken.

It says "a Copper or an Estate" so with 8 Favors you could either get 8VP or $8, but not both.

Why (for me) it's busted is that all you have to do is play Guildmaster in order to be able to pile out both Coppers and Estates into your hand. (Each time you use a Favor to gain a card, Guildmaster gives you another Favor). Now we're talking 2 empty piles, +8VP, and +$46 (less in multiplayer games). There are a lot of scenarios where that's a guaranteed win, from playing a single card.

You can fix the Guildmaster problem by changing the wording to something like, "At the start of your Buy phase, spend any number of Favors. For each Favor spent, gain to your hand a Copper or an Estate." To the extent it's still busted for the reasons faust said, this doesn't help.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2022, 06:10:25 pm by emtzalex »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2022, 07:44:18 pm »
0



Quote
Sprite ē $4 ē Action - Attack - Duration
Each other player may discard a Silver from their hand, revealed; if they do not, they gain a Copper to their hand.

At the start of your next turn, you may trash a Treasure from your hand to gain a Gold.


This doesn't need the "revealed," that's only necessary when multiple cards can be discarded at once. Discarding a single card is public information, otherwise e.g. Cutpurse would need to say "revealed."


i figured there'd be griping if i included it or if i didn't, so, its there. it doesn't hurt anything, its fine.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2022, 03:10:31 am »
+4

Gilders Guild
Ally
When you gain a Silver, you may spend 2 Favors to exchange it for a Gold
« Last Edit: August 17, 2022, 10:42:17 am by NoMoreFun »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2022, 03:42:47 am »
0

Why (for me) it's busted is that all you have to do is play Guildmaster in order to be able to pile out both Coppers and Estates into your hand. (Each time you use a Favor to gain a card, Guildmaster gives you another Favor). Now we're talking 2 empty piles, +8VP, and +$46 (less in multiplayer games). There are a lot of scenarios where that's a guaranteed win, from playing a single card.

You can fix the Guildmaster problem by changing the wording to something like, "At the start of your Buy phase, spend any number of Favors. For each Favor spent, gain to your hand a Copper or an Estate." To the extent it's still busted for the reasons faust said, this doesn't help.

Ah, failed to consider Guildmaster again. Not my first time!

Thanks for your thoughts on this one! I agree the card(-shaped thing) needs some limit. I originally found it interesting that this could piledrive the Estates. In a mirror, it might not be a big issue - it's about who bites the bullet when, kind of like a Gathering pile. But outside of a mirror, I'm afraid it's a bit too much.

I'll update my submission now to limit the effect to 3 times per turn. This might seem arbitrary, but I think it's just right. +3 coppers to hand is just the amount of kick a player can use for a big move, and 3 per turn should still be enough for to be useful in any situation where you might want lots of Coppers or Estates.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2022, 12:45:11 pm »
+2

My Submission:



Quote
Amphitheater ē $5 ē Action
+3 Cards
Discard a card. If it was an...
Action card, +1 Action
Treasure card, +1 Buy
Curse, discard a card
Gold, +$1

My submission is Amphitheater a drawer/sifter that is conditionally non-terminal, and which both makes you consider whether you want to sift what you normally would (e.g. Victory cards) and somewhat lessens the sting when you can't (e.g. when you only have Treasures and Action cards). I've played with this concept before, with just the first two conditional effects (and, last time I submitted it, a fan mechanic effect). Adding the two additional effects for the base cards makes it a little more interesting. Getting $1 back from Gold makes discarding it no worse than discarding a Silver (and fits with the lessening the sting theme). Making you discard another card for discarding a Curse (effectively not letting a Curse be the card you sift) fits with the sift-something-different theme.1

One of the things I like about this is how its conditionally non-terminal. The reason Laboratory is so much better than Moat (and, therefore, costs way more despite Moat's useful Reaction) is that you can play the Action cards you draw after playing a Lab, but not (without a village) the ones you draw after playing a Moat. But, on any given play of one card or the other, the distinction only matters if you have Action cards in your hand afterwards. If you end up with no Action cards, Lab is no better than Moat. With Amphitheater, in order for it to be meaningfully non-terminal, you need to have at least 2 Action cards in your hand after you draw (you also need to give up the use of one of them unless it has an on-discard Reaction).

FAQ:
If you discard a Gold, you get both the +1 Buy (for discarding a Treasure card) and the +$1.
If you discard a Curse, the second card you discard does not give you any of the bonus effects. So, if you discard a Curse, then discard a Copper, you don't get +1 Buy.



1 There is at least one circumstance where this could be a benefit. If your opponent played a Haunted Woods and you've drawn both a Curse and a Victory card, you can discard the Curse to also rid yourself of the Victory card (and not have it go back on your deck when you buy a card during your Buy phase).
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2022, 12:51:03 pm »
+2

My Submission:



Quote
Amphitheater ē $5 ē Action
+3 Cards
Discard a card. If it was an...
Action card, +1 Action
Treasure card, +1 Buy
Curse, discard a card
Gold, +$1

My submission is Amphitheater a drawer/sifter that is conditionally non-terminal, and which both makes you consider whether you want to sift what you normally would (e.g. Victory cards) and somewhat lessens the sting when you can't (e.g. when you only have Treasures and Action cards). I've played with this concept before, with just the first two conditional effects (and, last time I submitted it, a fan mechanic effect). Adding the two additional effects for the base cards makes it a little more interesting. Getting $1 back from Gold makes discarding it no worse than discarding a Silver (and fits with the lessening the sting theme). Making you discard another card for discarding a Curse (effectively not letting a Curse be the card you sift) fits with the sift-something-different theme.1

One of the things I like about this is how its conditionally non-terminal. The reason Laboratory is so much better than Moat (and, therefore, costs way more despite Moat's useful Reaction) is that you can play the Action cards you draw after playing a Lab, but not (without a village) the ones you draw after playing a Moat. But, on any given play of one card or the other, the distinction only matters if you have Action cards in your hand afterwards. If you end up with no Action cards, Lab is no better than Moat. With Amphitheater, in order for it to be meaningfully non-terminal, you need to have at least 2 Action cards in your hand after you draw (you also need to give up the use of one of them unless it has an on-discard Reaction).

FAQ:
If you discard a Gold, you get both the +1 Buy (for discarding a Treasure card) and the +$1.
If you discard a Curse, the second card you discard does not give you any of the bonus effects. So, if you discard a Curse, then discard a Copper, you don't get +1 Buy.



1 There is at least one circumstance where this could be a benefit. If your opponent played a Haunted Woods and you've drawn both a Curse and a Victory card, you can discard the Curse to also rid yourself of the Victory card (and not have it go back on your deck when you buy a card during your Buy phase).

Since the discarding is mandatory, this honestly looks weaker than vanilla Smithy imo.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2022, 11:09:27 pm »
+4

Moray


Worth 1 VP per 2 coppers
Heirloom: Silver
$7 Victory

Like Feodum and Counting house, this card will alternate between a powerhouse, and useless. But unlike those cards this Moray will always had a large impact on the start of each game by replacing one of the starting coppers with a silver.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2022, 08:46:50 am »
+3

Moray


Worth 1 VP per 2 coppers
Heirloom: Silver
$7 Victory

Like Feodum and Counting house, this card will alternate between a powerhouse, and useless. But unlike those cards this Moray will always had a large impact on the start of each game by replacing one of the starting coppers with a silver.

I fear this will only be a powerhouse with Beggar (and possibly Banquet), and be useless at least 95% of the time.
In the absence of Beggar, I'd try this at $4, so it would at least be a cheaper Duchy (with the potential to get extra VPs from late-game copper buys) in games where you can't trash coppers. You already need to buy three Morays to get the same 15 VP with 10 coppers that Fountain gives you for free.

Replacing a starting Copper by Silver is problematic because a 5/3 opening is usually much stronger than a 4/4 opening. And Moray would be stronger without an Heirloom attached...
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2022, 10:57:40 am »
+1

Moray


Worth 1 VP per 2 coppers
Heirloom: Silver
$7 Victory

Like Feodum and Counting house, this card will alternate between a powerhouse, and useless. But unlike those cards this Moray will always had a large impact on the start of each game by replacing one of the starting coppers with a silver.

I'm not sure if you're allowed to use a non-Heirloom card as an Heirloom. At the very least, it's inconsistent with the rest of the Heirloom cards. Although I understand why it's done for this contest.

I do think it's a little weak for $7 and could probably cost $5 or $6. In almost all games this is going to feel under-powered. Compare with Feodum which counts (3) Silvers, and consider the fact that you count (2) Coppers instead, which are much weaker than Silver. In games with Beggar or something similar, this is going to be busted no matter what you cost it at, so I'd focus more on giving this a reasonable cost for the vast majority of games where there is no good combo with Copper gainers.


I fear this will only be a powerhouse with Beggar (and possibly Banquet), and be useless at least 95% of the time.
In the absence of Beggar, I'd try this at $4, so it would at least be a cheaper Duchy (with the potential to get extra VPs from late-game copper buys) in games where you can't trash coppers. You already need to buy three Morays to get the same 15 VP with 10 coppers that Fountain gives you for free.

Replacing a starting Copper by Silver is problematic because a 5/3 opening is usually much stronger than a 4/4 opening. And Moray would be stronger without an Heirloom attached...

Stuff like "Baker" or "Cursed Gold" already changes the opening like this does, and neither of them have broken the game...
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2022, 11:13:02 am »
+2

Moray


Worth 1 VP per 2 coppers
Heirloom: Silver
$7 Victory

Like Feodum and Counting house, this card will alternate between a powerhouse, and useless. But unlike those cards this Moray will always had a large impact on the start of each game by replacing one of the starting coppers with a silver.

I'm not sure if you're allowed to use a non-Heirloom card as an Heirloom. At the very least, it's inconsistent with the rest of the Heirloom cards. Although I understand why it's done for this contest.

I do think it's a little weak for $7 and could probably cost $5 or $6. In almost all games this is going to feel under-powered. Compare with Feodum which counts (3) Silvers, and consider the fact that you count (2) Coppers instead, which are much weaker than Silver. In games with Beggar or something similar, this is going to be busted no matter what you cost it at, so I'd focus more on giving this a reasonable cost for the vast majority of games where there is no good combo with Copper gainers.


I fear this will only be a powerhouse with Beggar (and possibly Banquet), and be useless at least 95% of the time.
In the absence of Beggar, I'd try this at $4, so it would at least be a cheaper Duchy (with the potential to get extra VPs from late-game copper buys) in games where you can't trash coppers. You already need to buy three Morays to get the same 15 VP with 10 coppers that Fountain gives you for free.

Replacing a starting Copper by Silver is problematic because a 5/3 opening is usually much stronger than a 4/4 opening. And Moray would be stronger without an Heirloom attached...

Stuff like "Baker" or "Cursed Gold" already changes the opening like this does, and neither of them have broken the game...

The difference with Baker/Cursed Gold over a Silver is that they both allow you to guarantee a $5 hand on one of your opening turns (and even then Cursed Gold is still kind of annoying). But with a Silver one player could gain a big starting lead by lining up the Silver with enough Coppers and having their opponent miss the same opportunity due to pure chance. This does happen normally with 5/2 vs 4/3 but 5/3 vs 4/4 is worse in that regard.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2022, 11:15:05 am »
0

Moray


Worth 1 VP per 2 coppers
Heirloom: Silver
$7 Victory

Like Feodum and Counting house, this card will alternate between a powerhouse, and useless. But unlike those cards this Moray will always had a large impact on the start of each game by replacing one of the starting coppers with a silver.

I'm not sure if you're allowed to use a non-Heirloom card as an Heirloom. At the very least, it's inconsistent with the rest of the Heirloom cards. Although I understand why it's done for this contest.

I do think it's a little weak for $7 and could probably cost $5 or $6. In almost all games this is going to feel under-powered. Compare with Feodum which counts (3) Silvers, and consider the fact that you count (2) Coppers instead, which are much weaker than Silver. In games with Beggar or something similar, this is going to be busted no matter what you cost it at, so I'd focus more on giving this a reasonable cost for the vast majority of games where there is no good combo with Copper gainers.


I fear this will only be a powerhouse with Beggar (and possibly Banquet), and be useless at least 95% of the time.
In the absence of Beggar, I'd try this at $4, so it would at least be a cheaper Duchy (with the potential to get extra VPs from late-game copper buys) in games where you can't trash coppers. You already need to buy three Morays to get the same 15 VP with 10 coppers that Fountain gives you for free.

Replacing a starting Copper by Silver is problematic because a 5/3 opening is usually much stronger than a 4/4 opening. And Moray would be stronger without an Heirloom attached...

Stuff like "Baker" or "Cursed Gold" already changes the opening like this does, and neither of them have broken the game...

The difference with Baker/Cursed Gold over a Silver is that they both allow you to guarantee a $5 hand on one of your opening turns (and even then Cursed Gold is still kind of annoying). But with a Silver one player could gain a big starting lead by lining up the Silver with enough Coppers and having their opponent miss the same opportunity due to pure chance. This does happen normally with 5/2 vs 4/3 but 5/3 vs 4/4 is worse in that regard.

Fair point, I missed that when thinking about the opening.
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AJL828

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2022, 11:21:16 am »
+6



Forest Village

Action ($4)

+1 Card
+2 Actions

Reveal your hand. If you revealed no Coppers, Silvers, or Golds, +1 Card.

A village+ that can be a Lost City if you have no Copper, Silver, or Gold in your hand. I thought about a few different iterations of this card ($3 vs $4 for a cantrip vs Village, and also whether or not the condition should be the reverse; reveal at least 1 of each Treasure) and this one stuck out as being the best. It rewards players who trash heavily while still being at least a Village if that isn't possible. It also encourages newer players to try out engine strategies and Kingdom Treasures.
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Chappy7

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #50 on: August 17, 2022, 12:48:51 pm »
+1



It's like a Mine, but backwards, and kinda different.
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emtzalex

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #51 on: August 17, 2022, 12:55:19 pm »
+1

My Submission:



Quote
Amphitheater ē $5 ē Action
+3 Cards
Discard a card. If it was an...
Action card, +1 Action
Treasure card, +1 Buy
Curse, discard a card
Gold, +$1

Since the discarding is mandatory, this honestly looks weaker than vanilla Smithy imo.

Smithy is always terminal. In a deck with some Smithies and some villages, you always have to play a village before playing a Smithy (and play one village per Smithy, unless it's a Bustling Village) or else the Smithy is terminal and any Action cards you draw (or other Smithies you have in hand) are dead cards. In a Kingdom with no village (or equivalent), Smithy is always terminal, and always draws not only other Smithies, but all other Action cars (including Peddler variants, trashers, gainers, etc.) dead. Amphitheater gives you options. If you've played some villages, you can discard an Estate or a Copper (with a +Buy bonus). But if you need the Action (and have at least 2 Action cards) you can discard one and keep going.

It effectively lets you retroactively play one of your Action cards using Way of the Ox. While WotO is generally not that great, it tends to shine in Kingdoms with terminal draw cards, especially when there aren't villages. And, it's potentially better than WotO, because if you have a good engine going, you can get the discarded card back and still play it (especially if you're near the shuffle).


I donít think that it is weaker, ActionStables alone is probably a weakish $4 and this has more options. But it is definitely no $5 and I think it needs a Victory card option instead of the Gold option which really does nothing (if you got a Silver, you discard the Silver or Copper anyway; it only matters in the rare situation of only Golds).

While a literal ActionStables (e.g. an Action that said "You may discard an Action card, for +3 Cards and +1 Action.") would be a generally weakish $4, this isn't that. If a card said "+3 Cards. Discard a card. If it was a Treasure, +1 Action." It would be massively better than Stables for several reasons. First, by drawing before you discard, you get to choose the discarded card from 7 rather than 4 cards (if played from a 5 card hand). More choices nearly doubles the chance that you will get to discard what you want, and don't end up discarding a Silver to draw a Copper (making you wish you had a Lab instead). It also doesn't require you to discard a Treasure. If you don't need the +Action you can discard a dead card instead. This also avoids the non-zero risk of getting a Stables in a hand with no Treasures and no non-terminal draw cards, making Stables itself a dead card. And, you get to make that decision with the full knowledge of what is being drawn. Thus, this design is far better than Stables.

Obviously, that isn't this, and discarding an Action card is worse than discarding a Treasure. Players start each game (absent Heirlooms) with seven little pieces of junk in the form of Coppers. Unless there's really good trashing, at least some will tend to stick around for use by Stables. By contrast, Action cards almost always need to be actively gained by a player (at some opportunity cost). Thus, there are many cards/landscapes that presume having an Action card is good, and giving it up is a significant cost (e.g. Witch's Hut, Graverobber, Haunted Mirror, Advance, Arena, etc.). However, all of the benefits the draw-then-discard setup provides apply as much if not more to Amphitheater.

By drawing before discarding, players playing Amphitheater with one Action left know whether they have two Action cards that would compel them to discard one to play the other. They also know what the two cards are, and can choose which of the two is better to discard. If they're done playing Action cards, they also have their full payload in front of them to decide whether to discard a dead card for no bonus or trade some of their payload (hopefully a Copper) for a Buy--creating a sort of (potentially discounted) Travelling Fair effect (without the topdecking). And a player never needs an additional Action (or any specific card) to play Amphitheater, which will can always be played for a net +1 Card benefit (unless you end up with a hand that is literally only Curses, in which case you have much bigger problems).

As for the +$1 bonus from the Gold not making much of a difference, while that is generally true, in a really good engine a player may be in the position to discard a Gold (1) not needing the +1 Action because they played a village and (2) being reasonably certain that they will ultimately draw their whole deck, getting the Gold back while also having gotten the +$1 and +1 Buy bonus.

Put another way, I don't think the presence of some of its most obvious comparators (Lab, Stables, Smithy) in a Kingdom would lead a player to forego getting Amphitheater. You might want Labs initially, but if you had a solid engine going (especially if there were villages) the sifting and additional choices on-play that Amphitheater offers would lead you to want to add it as an engine component. The same is true with Stables, especially if the ratio of Actions to Treasures started risking a Stables with no Treasure. Or, consider Hamlet. Individually, none of its options on-play are very good: a sifting disappearing Copper; a sifting non-terminal Ruined Market; a net +1 Action, +1 Buy, -2 Cards (with sifting); or a cantrip (which is literally the same as nothing). But the flexibility to choose when you play it makes it a useful card in many decks. Thus, while a true ActionStables would be pretty weak, the multitude of options it provides makes Amphitheater (imo) a solid $5 in most Kingdoms.
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #52 on: August 17, 2022, 02:08:24 pm »
+4

This is a $4 and far from $5 strength.

It is mainly useful as mandatory ActionStables which is a weak $4. That it draws before discarding is nice for consistency but you are still discarding the good stuff.


The other options are weaker than Smithy. A Smithy that converts the Coin of a Copper into an extra Buy? Well, can be useful. Discarding Curses hurts, discarding green is no option (although it should be if you want this to become a $5) and discarding Gold is only useful in very rare cases.

The option to not use this as ActionStables but as Smithy- (net drawing 1 and getting an extra Buy is weaker than Smithy) donít push this into $5 territory.

Iíd try this with the option to discard green for a Horse or an extra card and IĎd get rid of the Curse and Gold options to give this Iron-family clarity and symmetry. Then it would be a $5 (albeit likely still weaker than Lab and other $5 Lab variants).

The Curse and Gold options are necessary for the card to qualify for the contest. That said, if you have to add unnecessary features just to make it qualify, it's probably not a great fit for the contest imo.
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CaptainReklaw

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #53 on: August 18, 2022, 01:18:26 am »
0

Moray


Worth 1 VP per 2 coppers
Heirloom: Silver
$7 Victory

Like Feodum and Counting house, this card will alternate between a powerhouse, and useless. But unlike those cards this Moray will always had a large impact on the start of each game by replacing one of the starting coppers with a silver.

I fear this will only be a powerhouse with Beggar (and possibly Banquet), and be useless at least 95% of the time.
In the absence of Beggar, I'd try this at $4, so it would at least be a cheaper Duchy (with the potential to get extra VPs from late-game copper buys) in games where you can't trash coppers. You already need to buy three Morays to get the same 15 VP with 10 coppers that Fountain gives you for free.

Replacing a starting Copper by Silver is problematic because a 5/3 opening is usually much stronger than a 4/4 opening. And Moray would be stronger without an Heirloom attached...

Let me explain my logic here: In any game with extra buys (ex: any game with market or workers village) it is insanely easy to mass coppers at the end of the game because coppers have zero cost. 1 VP per 2 zero cost cards can be heavy. In games without extra buys or copper gaining cards, it's basically useless. That is why it has an heirloom so it always has a meaningful and exciting impact on the game. In games with extra buys, and you didn't trash your starting coppers it'll be easy to make the Moray worth more than a province.

I understand the opening could be unfair, but it puts a nice twist that I think is fun. Dominion has always had an element of luck, that being said I have whined when my friend gets a 5/2 start with certain kingdom cards.

Moderator: Sorry if having silver as an heirloom seemed cheeky, but I always thought starting with a silver would be interesting. (We've tried giving my nephew a starting silver to give him a chance: he still lost horribly.)
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #54 on: August 18, 2022, 09:28:07 pm »
+4

24 hour warning

These are the submissions I have so far. Please let me know if I missed yours:

Pot of Gold by Augie279
Midas by majiponi
Offering by Gamer3000
Lure by Builder_Roberts
Burglar by Gubump
Crone by Marpharos
Homestead by segura
Tyranny by X-tra
Ledger by nyxfulloftricks
Financier by kru5h
Lycantrope by n_sanity
Old City by J410
Coin Press by Xen3k
Crook by 4est
Sprite by spineflu
Copper Mine by xyz123
Beachcombers by Dubdubdubdub
Gilders Guild by NoMoreFun
Amphitheater by emtzalex
Moray by CaptainReklaw
Forest Village by AJL828
Decay by Chappy7
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Joxeft

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #55 on: August 18, 2022, 10:21:07 pm »
+1

Writer
Action - Cost:4
Trash any number of coppers from your hand, then gain a Silver per 2 cards trashed this way (rounded up).
Feedback is appreciated.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2022, 09:05:59 am by Joxeft »
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Augie279

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #56 on: August 18, 2022, 10:48:58 pm »
+4

Writer
Action - Cost:4
Trash any number of cards from your hand, then gain then half that many silvers.

Feedback is appreciated.

Should probably be reworded to match Bishop [Trash any number of cards from your hand, then gain a Silver per 2 cards trashed this way (rounded down/up).]

Edit: ...Wait, this only mentions one base card (Silver) so it wouldn't be eligible for this anyway.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2022, 10:51:01 pm by Augie279 »
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arowdok

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #57 on: August 18, 2022, 11:13:56 pm »
+3

Here is my entry

Quote
Serenity
$10
Event
You may trash a Province, a Duchy, and an Estate from your hand for +20%.
Just to be clear the player must trash all 3 cards to get the +20%. This card is a fun quest for players to accomplish. Like Colonies and the Events Alliance and Dominate or any powerful Green card pile, this new card should reward players to go big and make a strong engine decks that can draw through Green cards and double their score. I really enjoy this idea as many slow engine decks get running then find their is not enough Green card left in the supply to catch up and this presents a method to help catch up. But does not stale out the game as player still need to collect this Green cards from the supply pushing the game toward an end state, except when they card pull from the trash but that feels a bit narrow.

Here are my other cards I made this week but they felt not as great but others might enjoy using them or improving on them later. I really enjoyed this contest as many cards want to reward players with game objects and Base cards are a great thing to reference as every game uses them and players don't have to fish out other piles.


Quote
Prestige
$5
Treasure
+1 Buy
+1 Coffers
This turn, when you gain an Estate, gain a Gold onto your deck.
This turn, when you gain a Duchy, Queue a Silver and a Copper from the Supply.
This turn, when you gain a Province, you may Exile it.
I tried to make a card that mentions the 6 common base cards and this card does a lot because of that. Frist, it is a treasure as it is not strong enough to be a terminal Action and being a Treasure saves space no having the +1 Action. Second, it gives a Coffers due +$1 how felt weak it that effect is and to reduce text size which saves spaces for the important bits. Third, the +1 Buy opens the door for multiple purchases of Green cards doubling this cards effectiveness. Fourth, the Estate bonus is mostly to get players decks started. Fifth the Duchy line requires the use of a Fan machinic with is linked below but should help Midrange Big money decks keep the money flowing but also Junking themselves up with low powered cards. Last the effect to Exile Provinces helps players Green earlier without much punishment other then playing this card with is a stop card and only generates +$1 money.
Also an easy reminder for Queue rules
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20894.msg875641#msg875641

Quote
Capital Spending
$3
Event
Choose one: Gain a Copper and Exile a Gold from the Supply; or Exile a Duchy from your hand to gain a Gold onto your deck.
This card does a few things, first the the majority of the card Camel is the early gain effect, as buying Camel or this new card rewards rushing multiple Golds. Second this card helps midrange Big money decks clean out Duchies and set up for a Province. Third if player Buys this a few times early for the Exiled Golds they can get $5 money to snag an early Duchy to help get to Gold instead of just hoping to get to $6 which a Camel start can make much harder.

Quote
Lofty Pursuits
$5
Project
At the start of your Buy phase, you may discard an Duchy to look through your discard pile. You may reveal a Gold from it and put it into your hand.
This card is like turning the 1st Duchy into a Harem like card.

Quote
Recover
$5
Event
Once per turn: +1 Buy. Look through your discard pile, reveal up to one of each of these cards from it: A Colony, a Province, a Duchy, an Estate, a Platinum, a Gold, a Silver, a Copper, and/or a Curse, and set them aside. If you did, then at the start of your next turn, put them into your hand.
This card does a lot and was the best card I could make that uses all 9 Base cards (except Potion). It is quite a long test box but feels like the effect is easy to understand and shouldn't need to much rereading.

Quote
Reduction
$3
Event
Trash a card from your hand. If it's anÖ
Copper, +2 Coffers
Estate, Gain 2 Horses
Otherwise, +2 Villagers
This card slowly cleans out the player's decks of start cards or other junk and gives some small rewards much like the action card Sacrifice.
Quote
?
$10
Event
Gain a Gold onto your deck. Gain a two Duchies.
This card reward players who hit $10 with the % of a Province and helps set up the next turn but the Double Duchies might start to hurt. Sorry no image this idea was scrapped before I made a mock up.

Quote
Trawling
$5
Action
Reveal the top 5 cards of your deck. From those cards, put a Copper, a Silver, a Gold and a different Treasure card into your hand. Discard the rest.
FAQ: This card can draw at most 1 Copper, 1 Silver, 1 Gold, and 1 other Treasure (such as a Potion or a Spices) but this last Treasure card cannot be a Copper, a Silver, or a Gold.
This card has the potential to draw a lot of money but is terminal and requires players to fill there deck with targets and get lucky.

Quote
Wellspring
$4
Action
Choose one: Look through your discard pile. You may reveal a Copper, a Silver, and/or a Gold from it and put them into your hand or +1 Card and +1 Action.
This card has replacement mode because as with Counting House, it sucks far too much to draw this right after the shuffle.
This card has a very high ceiling to generate lots of money but may take a while to get working as the players must acquire the Treasures and a large enough deck for them to be in the discard pile reliably.

Quote
DI
$5
Action
+3 Cards then discard a card. If it was an...
Estate or Copper, +$1
Duchy or Silver, +1 Coffers
Province or Gold, gain a DI
Curse or Ruins, Exile it
This card was based on emtzalex's Amphitheater, which I liked but disliked the punishment for Discarding Curses. Also only mentioning Curse and Gold by name felt wrong and mostly tacked on it felt better to me to doubled down on references and pair them up to save space.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #58 on: August 19, 2022, 04:08:28 am »
+1

Writer
Action - Cost:4
Trash any number of cards from your hand, then gain then half that many silvers.

Feedback is appreciated.

As noted by another user above, this does not have two base cards in it, so would not qualify.
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binbag420

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #59 on: August 19, 2022, 05:43:40 am »
+1

Empire - Event

Cost: 8Debt

Move your empire token to a non-Victory supply pile costing up to $4.
ó
Setup: Place your Empire on the Curse pile. (When you gain a Province gain a card from the pile with your Empire token.)



An old event concept. not as centralising as it seems but pretty powerful. Helps to maintain an engine while greening, if ur willing to pay the price.
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Joxeft

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #60 on: August 19, 2022, 09:06:35 am »
0

Writer
Action - Cost:4
Trash any number of cards from your hand, then gain then half that many silvers.

Feedback is appreciated.

As noted by another user above, this does not have two base cards in it, so would not qualify.
Fixed, thank you.
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binbag420

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #61 on: August 19, 2022, 03:20:44 pm »
0

Quote
think this needs to be able to gain $5s. Workshopping while greening is not very impressive


Note that that the token starts on the Curse pile. Iíd buy this extremely often whenever i wanted to go for provinces. I donít want it to be a total autobuy anyway
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binbag420

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #62 on: August 19, 2022, 04:13:57 pm »
0

No? I didnít claim the reason it was good was because it hurt you. I just clarified it started on the curse pile since i thought you missed that since you were arguing it was too weak.

I donít think itís too automatic in games without cursers, sometimes you go for three-piles or alt VP or just green late enough that Empire isnít worth gaining. Ofc itíll be strong in a lot of boards but hardly as automatic as many other powerful events. And yes itíll be weaker in games with cursers. I donít see the issue with this.
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binbag420

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #63 on: August 19, 2022, 04:27:48 pm »
0

I personally prefer it on the curse pile, seems more interesting. I donít see it being that much less swingy in power with your changes.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #64 on: August 19, 2022, 09:19:35 pm »
+5

Contest Closed

Judgment coming soon!
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #65 on: August 19, 2022, 10:30:36 pm »
+9

Weekly Design Contest 160: Judging

There were a lot of really creative entries this week! Pretty much every card-shaped thing had something to like about it, and a lot seemed to me like they could pass as official card-shaped things (and particularly interesting ones at that!). Below are my comments on each card:

Pot of Gold by Augie279

I like the simplicity. I like things that reward you for getting Duchies. My only issue with it is that I feel like the ďalwaysĒ-effect is too strong and the ďbonusĒ-effect too weak (not in terms of power level, just in terms of interestingness). Iím not sure of a nice fix off the top of my head. A solid entry though.

Midas by majiponi

This is an interesting idea, but Iím not sure how well it works in practice. The treasure-trashing penalty just means you wait until your Coppers are gone before you buy it, which you were probably going to do anyway because it costs $8. But I guess it nerfs the obvious TfB combos that have you trash actions and then fuel the TfB with all the Gold you got. Actually, that initially seemed like the main use to me, but the fact that you junk yourself with Copper when you do it might make it not worth getting at all. Iím not quite sure what to think about this oneÖ

Offering by Gamer3000

I like this one a lot. Itís a really unique idea and itís still pretty simple. My feeling is that itís overpriced, but I donít have anything to base that on and Iím not too concerned with balance anyway. This is definitely a contender.

Lure by Builder_Roberts

I really like the simplicity. I think itís probably rarely (if ever) worth getting without trashing, but with trashing it becomes an interesting choice whether to take Lure or Silver.

Burglar by Gubump

I like the attack a lot, it is creative, novel, and like Bandit Fort, punishes you for using Silver and/or Gold. Itís not enough to completely shut down a player using lots of Silver/Gold, but thatís fine because it costs $3 and doesnít need to have a dominating effect. It accentuates other kingdom-dependent sources of coin, which is good design. This is a contender.

Crone by Marpharos

Itís a weaker Witch that defends against itself. Thatís sort of an interesting concept, but I think thereís a problem inherent to it. If it appears in the same kingdom as Witch, youíll always take Witch because itís basically just better. But as others pointed out, it canít cost less than Witch, because in the non-mirror itís the same as Witch. Maybe you could work around this with a Potion or Debt cost, but Iím not sure that does much to fix the issue.

Homestead by segura

This is really neat. I think itís underpriced, but I donít care much about balance, it would be easy to adjust with playtesting, and the concept is really good. This is going on my top n list.

Tyranny by X-tra

This is very clean and simple. Itís like a Duchy, but two cards instead of one, but they can both be trashed (or just the Curse can be trashed, if itís near the end of the game). I like that itís so similar to Duchy while still being neither clearly better nor clearly worse, though I imagine on a lot of individual boards it will be either clearly better or clearly worse. I like it overall.

Ledger by nyxfulloftricks

I love this. Itís like a super-ultra Peddler, or a non-terminal Coppersmith with maybe some draw, or something; but then it junks you with more of the fuel that it drives on. I canít even begin to wrap my head around whether itís balanced, but itís definitely game-warping. I think it will be most interesting in engines with some trashing but not a lot, where you can sort of keep up with the junk youíre getting but still keep some around for the Ledgers. This is definitely a strong entry.

Financier by kru5h

So either itís the 3 terminal options from Courtier, or else itís a mini Silver-flooder that produces a lot of coin right now. I like the simplicity and this feels like it could be a real published card. Iím guessing which option you choose will generally depend on whether you need exactly $4 right now. Nice card.

Lycantrope by n_sanity

I love the attack, and I love how the on-gain effect hands out a defense for the attack, and how that deters you from opening with it. Iím not so sure about it being a Night-Action with the +2 cards effect; it seems to me like maybe there could have either been a simpler or a more interesting effect to go along with the attack, but thereís nothing particularly wrong with it. I think this is going in my top n list.

Old City by J410

I like this, itís very simple and it makes sense in terms of playability: the extra card draw compared to Village cancels out with the extra junk card(s), but then you trash those junk cards and now youíre left with just this powerhouse card. So it takes some effort, but in the end youíve got a Lost City. This seems like what Cache/Banquet should have been (a strong top half thatís not already available in every game), and what I like in comparison to Lost City is that it doesnít just accelerate everyone, but has an accelerating effect that slows you down to make up for it. I think this deserves to be on the top n list.

Coin Press by Xen3k

So I understand the wording changes, but it wound up as something thatís hard to grok just from reading it. Essentially the effect is get a Silver to hand, or turn two Silvers into a Gold (in-hand), or turn two Coppers into a Silver (or trash other stuff into Silver but thatís uncommon). I think this card is doing a little too much all at once, though I recognize all the effects are all sort of on the same theme. I donít think itís a bad card, just not for me. I do kind of like the idea of ďmeldingĒ treasures into stronger treasures though.

Crook by 4est

So itís like half a Trading Post, combined with a trashing/junking attack. I like the attack, but it might get nasty in conjunction with discard attacks. Itís neat that the attack can actually help other players in the beginning of the game, which is when the top half of the card is most appealing. Clever design.

Sprite by spineflu

This combines (perhaps not intentionally) some things I liked from previous entries (discarding Silver as an option to an attack, Copper-gaining-to-hand as an attack). Otherwise it seems weak, and not-obviously-fixably weak. Copper-to-hand seems like a weak attack to me, and even if it is strong in a particular game, they have another option to avoid it. Trashing a treasure to gain a Gold is reminiscent of Taxman, one of the weakest cards in the game, though this is better as it always gets Gold and doesnít top-deck it. But itís slower since itís a Duration. So thereís some nice ideas in this card but Iím not sure it really works.

Copper Mine by xyz123

I really like the attack on this, though it might be really nasty (itís hard for me to estimate since I canít think of any existing cards to compare it to). Not much else to say about it. Cool idea!

Beachcombers by Dubdubdubdub

I really like this card-shaped thing, because it really feels like it could have been an official Ally. The power level seems in line with existing Allies. ďSpend a favor for +$1Ē is too strong (and also just turns Favors into Coffers), but at the cost of gaining a Copper it gives you some interesting decisions. If you really need that $1 to push you over an important threshold, or if itís late in the game and you donít think youíre going to see the Copper again, it becomes really tempting, but with potentially a long-term cost (or maybe not if you have strong trashing). The option to pick up a few extra VP late in the game is nice too. My only complaint is that itís slightly awkward that itís limited to three times per turn; I donít see a way around that though. This is one of my favorite entries, well done!

Gilders Guild by NoMoreFun

Iíve noticed that I tend to like NoMoreFunís card-shaped things, and this is no exception. This is another Ally entry, and also another really compelling one that feels like it could be an official Ally. The power level seems about right. In some sense you get +$1.5 value out of each Favor spent, but itís very limited in what it can do. But there are often lots of ways to gain Silver, and you (pretty much) never wouldnít rather have a Gold, so it gives a nice boost to your deck if you can find ways to take advantage of it. This is another contender for my top n list.

Amphitheater by emtzalex

I like some of the ideas with this one, but I think the execution is a little off. For one thing, the Curse option feels awkward to me, and I almost get the feeling itís just there to make the card qualify for the contest. I think the most appealing idea with this card is the way that it can build up coin (by discarding and re-drawing Gold) if youíre overdrawing your deck (which you may well be, since it draws 3 cards semi-non-terminally). But I donít think +$1 is nearly enough of a reward for that to ever be worth building a strategy around. I also like conditionally non-terminal cards, and this is a neat way to do it, but I think itís weak at its price point. So I think with some changes this could be a really nice card, but as it is it doesnít quite do it for me.

Moray by CaptainReklaw

I like alt-VP and I like that this actually makes some sense balance-wise at $7, which is an awkward price to design alt-VP at. Unfortunately, I think itís terribroken as it is now. In the vast majority of games, itís just an expensive Duchy, but in the games where itís good, itís potentially worth a ton of VP. It has the problem though that if itís worth a lot of VP, itís nearly impossible to get, since a Copper-flooded deck wonít generally hit $7. Actually, I think that makes it a really interesting card. You have to get several of them first, then start flooding your deck with Copper. But unfortunately there wonít be many games where itís worth going for at all, and the extra awkwardness of being hard to get when itís strong just further nerfs an already weak card. I almost wonder if you could get away with 1 VP per Copper, instead of 1 VP per 2 CoppersÖit would be completely game-warping but maybe in a fun way?

Forest Village by AJL828

I really, really love this idea. Itís unique, simple, and different. I like how it slightly anti-combos with itself by making your hand size bigger after every play (and therefore more likely to have Copper/Silver/Gold in it). I also like how it encourages you to focus on kingdom cards and build a deck with alternative sources of coin. This really feels like it could be an official card. Definitely a top n card!

Decay by Chappy7

This is a pretty neat concept. I like the anti-Mine idea, and the handing out your -$1 token if you canít anti-Mine anything makes sense, since you ďshouldĒ (in some sense) lose a $1 from your hand. Itís a little wordy for a hex, but the idea is intuitive enough that I think itís okay.

Writer by Joxeft

This is actually a pretty cool idea: you compress Coppers into Silvers. You donít change the total coin your deck produces (unless you trash an odd number of Coppers), but you make them take up less space. I wonder if it might be better as an event that trashes from play, since you probably only use it once or twice anyway.

Serenity by arowdok

This is a neat one too, and pretty unique. It gives you an extra way to generate VP by set-collecting on the different types of VP cards. I think itís overpriced, comparing to Colony, but Iím not too concerned about pricing. I like the way this changes how the game plays. This is going on the top n list.

Empire by binbag420

I like the novelty, but I worry that the effect is underwhelming at any price point. Usually by the time youíre buying Provinces, youíre not going to see the cards you get much more. 8D seems way too much to me, but maybe the fact that it stops you from getting Curses justifies it in some games? Iím not quite sure what to think of this card overall, but I appreciate the idea.





So it turns out I had some difficulty restraining myself from putting things on the top n list, which I guess means you all did a really good job this week! Sorting the list required some really tough choices.

Runners Up
9. Burglar by Gubump
8. Lycantrope by n_sanity
7. Offering by Gamer3000
6. Serenity by arowdok
5. Old City by J410
4. Homestead by segura
3. Ledger by nyxfulloftricks
2. Gilders Guild by NoMoreFun
1. Beachcombers by Dubdubdubdub

Winner
0. Forest Village by AJL828
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Builder_Roberts

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #66 on: August 19, 2022, 10:49:18 pm »
0

Congrats to AJL828!

Quote
I think itís probably rarely (if ever) worth getting without trashing, but with trashing it becomes an interesting choice whether to take Lure or Silver.

That's fair. I might as well just add trashing to it.

makes it so that gold is essentially split into 2 easy payments of $3.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2022, 10:50:28 pm by Builder_Roberts »
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Builder_Roberts

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #67 on: August 20, 2022, 09:02:02 am »
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This is too automatic in the opening. See the entry about Hovel in the Secret History of Dark Ages.

I don't see the part you mean of the secret histories. http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Hovel
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #69 on: August 20, 2022, 10:09:40 am »
+2

Thank you for the win! :D I just posted the new contest as well!
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Builder_Roberts

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #70 on: August 20, 2022, 10:19:44 am »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #71 on: August 20, 2022, 10:42:22 am »
+2

I don't see the part you mean of the secret histories. http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Hovel

http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Shelters#Secret_History

Yeah, I read that. I'm asking what part he means. It doesn't seem related at all.

What they are referring to is how Lure allows people to trash their Estates/Shelters in the first two turns and that, according to the testing noted in that Secret History, this is too good to pass up. This would make the early game too automatic as the optimal play is to use Lure to trash yourself into a deck of all Copper straight away.
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Builder_Roberts

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #72 on: August 20, 2022, 01:08:36 pm »
+1

What they are referring to is how Lure allows people to trash their Estates/Shelters in the first two turns and that, according to the testing noted in that Secret History, this is too good to pass up. This would make the early game too automatic as the optimal play is to use Lure to trash yourself into a deck of all Copper straight away.

Oh! I  disagree. Might as well rework it anyway.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #73 on: August 20, 2022, 02:01:32 pm »
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You can "disagree" (translate: ignore) with the playtesting experiences of the designer. But it is highly unlikely that this leads to good cards. Especially when it is about elementary stuff like feasibility of trashing in the opening.

Don't misinterpret. It's rude. I meant what I said and I said what I meant.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #74 on: August 20, 2022, 02:48:55 pm »
+2

Passing up something in order to trash one of your starting 10 cards in your first two turns doesn't seem problematic to me - in fact, I think it sounds strategically interesting. There are effects in the game that already let you do that, and even more, like Doctor.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #75 on: August 20, 2022, 03:13:49 pm »
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Ooh so close! Thanks for judging, glad you liked Beachcombers. Now to start toiling at a rotating pile :o
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #160: Two Base Cards
« Reply #76 on: August 20, 2022, 06:49:59 pm »
+9

Except it really does not. Donald X goes back on his own design principles all the time. His design philosophy about what he thought was forbidden to make when he made Dark Ages, 10 years ago, does not have to """empirically""" apply today, as you've wrongly stated.

For instance, Donald X said he would never do a "now and later" Throne variant when he tested a weak iteration of it during the making of Seaside. You, yourself, have used this example before to shoot down a fan card idea (I can fetch a quote). It must have been disheartening to see Royal Galley then, oops.

The point is, don't be overly dismissive of so called "tried and true" ideas by Donald X. The man itself can very well go back on these ideas one of these days. His design references should be honoured as much as possible to create something well-put together, but shouldn't be read as biblical statements either.

And while Doctor does not auto-trash Estates, opening with Banish will. It even does something better for you.  ;) ;) ;)
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