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Author Topic: Ways but for Treasures  (Read 611 times)

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Builder_Roberts

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Ways but for Treasures
« on: July 26, 2022, 12:53:37 pm »
+5

So, I've tried to do this a couple times, but I actually succeeded a little this time.
These work exactly like Ways, but for Treasures. You play a treasure, but instead of following it's instructions, you follow the "Path" or what have you.
I called them Paths, but honestly all that matters is Mechanics right now.

The main pitfall here is that you start with 7 Treasures right away, and excluding coppers, while not a bad way to make these, is kinda sad.
I also want to avoid messing up the start at all, but for some things it's inevitable. It's cool to change the start in interesting ways, I think.


Does anyone have any ideas for more of these?
They can exclude coppers or mess with the start; I don't care, I just want some more ideas.

concepts by arowdok:


Updates:
7/26/2022
Clean Boulevard now requires a Discard to work.
Gold-paved road has been exchanged for Paved road (removed the +$1 for trashing)
Footpath uses emtzalex's wording now.
8/14/2022
thank you arowdok for the new concepts! these are great!
« Last Edit: August 14, 2022, 10:23:06 am by Builder_Roberts »
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Re: Ways but for Treasures
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2022, 01:15:46 pm »
+4

Gold-Paved Road is way too automatic, everyone just trashes all their Coppers in the opening and still buys what they want normally. What would be more interesting is if it didn't give the +$1, and you had to decide if you wanted the economy or to trash it. You still can trash all your Coppers, but players will need to think more about when.
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Builder_Roberts

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Re: Ways but for Treasures
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2022, 01:21:15 pm »
0

Gold-Paved Road is way too automatic, everyone just trashes all their Coppers in the opening and still buys what they want normally. What would be more interesting is if it didn't give the +$1, and you had to decide if you wanted the economy or to trash it. You still can trash all your Coppers, but players will need to think more about when.

Yeah, That would work! Since the main thing is that we don't want Coppers to give +$ for trashing them, perhaps I could even make it affect Silvers and Golds by giving it a Salvager effect!
"Trash this. +$1 per $1 it costs."
that would be fine, right?
No it would not, treasure-thrones give too much. hopefully "if you did" reduces that.

[Removed image]
« Last Edit: July 27, 2022, 02:47:02 pm by Builder_Roberts »
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emtzalex

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Re: Ways but for Treasures
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2022, 03:46:46 pm »
+2

I have played with this a little, but it's extremely challenging, especially because of the issue of starting with 7 Coppers.

I agree with segura on Clean Boulevard. While it doesn't affect turns 1 and 2 (absent certain Heirlooms), it massively accelerates your start after that, turning many of your Coppers into Silvers, then Golds, and (I would guess) making BM (or something close to it) the only viable strategy.

I also think Footpath is way too good. If you play a deck with only Treasures in it, it turns every non-Copper Treasure into a card strictly better than a Laboratory (since it can also be used for $). While foregoing Action cards may not be worth it for Silver-->Lab, with Ducat it's completely busted. You start Ducat-Ducat (thinning 2 Coppers), then use the Ducats' +Buy to rush the pile and get a bunch of $2 Labs (and access to +Buys). I'd suggest changing it to "+1 Card per $3 this costs (round down)."
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Builder_Roberts

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Re: Ways but for Treasures
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2022, 04:20:50 pm »
0

Gold Paved Road is too good in the endgame, you blow up all your yellow. I would stick with the simpler trash version, that is already pretty good.

Pier is problematic for reasons similar to converting Coins into Coffers.
"simpler trash version" I assume you just mean "Trash this" and that's it. I'd be okay with that. kinda sad, but probably the right call.
Good point about Coins into Coffers.

I have played with this a little, but it's extremely challenging, especially because of the issue of starting with 7 Coppers.

I also think Footpath is way too good. If you play a deck with only Treasures in it, it turns every non-Copper Treasure into a card strictly better than a Laboratory (since it can also be used for $). While foregoing Action cards may not be worth it for Silver-->Lab, with Ducat it's completely busted. You start Ducat-Ducat (thinning 2 Coppers), then use the Ducats' +Buy to rush the pile and get a bunch of $2 Labs (and access to +Buys). I'd suggest changing it to "+1 Card per $3 this costs (round down)."
Woah, you played with these? Thank you so much! I like your suggestion!
Yeah, it's pretty hard to come up with good versions of these.

Clean Boulevard, making Coppers into Treasure Thrones, is too good. It should come with some cost, like discarding a card, or a non-Copper clause.
I agree with segura on Clean Boulevard. While it doesn't affect turns 1 and 2 (absent certain Heirlooms), it massively accelerates your start after that, turning many of your Coppers into Silvers, then Golds, and (I would guess) making BM (or something close to it) the only viable strategy.
Well that's too bad. I thought I had a pretty nice thing going. I guess I do have to add some cost to it, discarding sounds good. non-copper feels too sad.
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scolapasta

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Re: Ways but for Treasures
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2022, 04:48:29 pm »
+1

I have played with this a little, but it's extremely challenging, especially because of the issue of starting with 7 Coppers.

I do think this is the big challenge with "Ways for Treasures."

Not exactly sure how this would impact things - i.e. you'd have to see how each of the above designs would have to change for this - but what if you had to spend a Buy to go down a Path? (or some cost, but using a buy fits with it being your buy phase / treasures)

So the original gold paved road (Trash this for $1) could work since also uses a buy.

In some ways this might make them too similar to events though? (I guess the different might be that they would all refer to "this" so it would be more of a variable costing event)

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Wizard_Amul

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Re: Ways but for Treasures
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2022, 06:09:14 pm »
+2

I have played with this a little, but it's extremely challenging, especially because of the issue of starting with 7 Coppers.

I do think this is the big challenge with "Ways for Treasures."

Not exactly sure how this would impact things - i.e. you'd have to see how each of the above designs would have to change for this - but what if you had to spend a Buy to go down a Path? (or some cost, but using a buy fits with it being your buy phase / treasures)

So the original gold paved road (Trash this for $1) could work since also uses a buy.

In some ways this might make them too similar to events though? (I guess the different might be that they would all refer to "this" so it would be more of a variable costing event)

Just like how Donate and some Heirlooms can be game-warping, the same could be said of a game with a Path. It just becomes a different paradigm for that particular game, which I think is fine.

The obvious but non-elegant solution is to make coppers exempt, so make a "Path" only apply to any non-copper treasure.
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emtzalex

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Re: Ways but for Treasures
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2022, 02:11:29 pm »
+1

I have played with this a little, but it's extremely challenging, especially because of the issue of starting with 7 Coppers.

I also think Footpath is way too good. If you play a deck with only Treasures in it, it turns every non-Copper Treasure into a card strictly better than a Laboratory (since it can also be used for $). While foregoing Action cards may not be worth it for Silver-->Lab, with Ducat it's completely busted. You start Ducat-Ducat (thinning 2 Coppers), then use the Ducats' +Buy to rush the pile and get a bunch of $2 Labs (and access to +Buys). I'd suggest changing it to "+1 Card per $3 this costs (round down)."
Woah, you played with these? Thank you so much! I like your suggestion!
Yeah, it's pretty hard to come up with good versions of these.

Sorry, that was a misleading choice of words. I have not playtested this kind of card. I had the idea for a Way-but-for-Treasures, tried coming up with designs, made what you named Market Street, then didn't like anything else I came up with so dropped the idea. I had decided there wasn't enough of a design space to make exploring this worthwhile, but you've changed my mind. These actually seem like they have some real potential.

For Pier, you might be able to make it more reasonable by double nerfing it, in limiting a player both to one copy of a Treasure set aside, and one treasure played per turn. That might say something like:

Quote
Pier ē Path
Set this aside. Discard any copies of it you set aside using Pier.

At the start of each turn, play a card you set aside using Pier.

This will have some impact on the opening, but nothing game-altering (that I can think of). Mainly, it'll let a player who opened $3/$4 and wants 2 Silvers to keep one of their Coppers out of the shuffle and add it to their T3 hand. In some narrow circumstances ($2/$5) it lets a player open with a Gold, but so do Baker and Wedding do as well (more easily).

The one-of-each keeps it from being a dumping ground for Coppers, and limiting it to one Treasure makes it harder for players to use it to build a mega-turn.
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arowdok

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Re: Ways but for Treasures
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2022, 05:32:46 pm »
+1

These seemed fun at first as I spent an evening designing quite a few Path cards. Unfortunately I woke up the next morning converted most of them into low costed Events and they worked much cleaner. Also looking at these as Events made it more clear how powerful these cad be like the Paved Road one you posted is way too strong compared to the Event Bonfire or How your Dark Alley is Toil but costs less and can combos much easier. These are the few Path cards I made that might still be worth the rules effort

Quote
+$1
When you discard this from play this turn, put it onto your deck.
Quote
+1 Card
Take a card from your hand and put it anywhere in your deck.
Somewhat useful deck manipulators, the other 3 are basically using conditional effects to turn Coppers into Silvers temporarily
Quote
Gold produces an extra $1 this turn.
Quote
If youíve played 3 or more Actions this turn, +$2.
Quote
If you have exactly 7 cards in play, +$3.
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Joxeft

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Re: Ways but for Treasures
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2022, 08:26:09 pm »
0

I think that foot path is too good. Silvers are now labs and golds are now double labs.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2022, 10:18:44 pm by Joxeft »
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arowdok

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Re: Ways but for Treasures
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2022, 09:37:46 pm »
+2

I think that foot path is to good. Silvers are now labs and golds are now double labs.

Except they can't combo into Action cards so a bit more limited still strong but less good then Laboratory on boards with powerful Action cards.
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Builder_Roberts

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Re: Ways but for Treasures
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2022, 09:50:06 am »
0

These are the few Path cards I made that might still be worth the rules effort
Thanks for the ideas! You're Awesome! I'll put my thoughts about them here.
Quote
+$1
When you discard this from play this turn, put it onto your deck.
Interesting. I've been trying to make "next turn" work, and topdecking is definitely it. I think I'll use Pier's theming for this. After that, though, I'm out of Ideas for Path Themes. I'll figure something out.

Quote
+1 Card
Take a card from your hand and put it anywhere in your deck.
That is a great deck manipulator. I like it! the +Card has a reason to exist, I really enjoy that. Moonlit road?

Quote
Gold produces an extra $1 this turn.
Interesting. Weirdly, this works quite well. only thing that I know people will complain about is the advanced counting they'll have to do, but Coppersmith was a thing so I think it's fine. Merchant Street? Commerce Cul-de-sac?

Quote
If youíve played 3 or more Actions this turn, +$2.
I like that. it turns your Coppers to silvers on boards that have villages. interesting.

Quote
If you have exactly 7 cards in play, +$3.
exactly one conditional gold. interesting, and would probably come up a bit, but feels just slightly too restricted. Still gonna make the card-thing though.
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IlstrawberrySeed

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Re: Ways but for Treasures
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2022, 09:21:04 pm »
+1

Gain a copy of this. Each other player may gain a cheaper card.

Helps others build when you use this to build.

Once per turn per differently named treasure: each other player with 4 or more cards in hand discards a card or reveals a hand of all coppers.

Attack that doesnít effect openings. Originally non-copper card, but it could discard a T1/2 buy. This way, they can discard a copper if they have their buy and 4 coppers. Also intices keeping a copper in deck in some games.

You may gain a copper to hand per [1] this costs.

[] is a fan denomination that is either: able to be paid with (coin), {debt}, (p), or another fan denomination; or the sum of all denominations.

Turns silver into junking golds and golds into junking platnum+, might pile coppers once greening starts.

Each other player may reveal a card from their hand. If all other players revealed a card, they discard them. Otherwise, once per turn, +(3)

1 card discarded from everyone, or a 1/turn gold. Not worth risking it unless you have extra coppers or your playing with a large group, because it wonít mess with openings unless someone has a 2/5. Not political in that all players or no players discard, but it is in that a player may not think that you are able to, ex, get the last province, and the next guy can.

Follow this cards instructions, getting +buy instead of +() and vice versa.

Might mess with 2/5s who want the 2s, or with poor house games as far as openings. Tiara is suddenly more attractive.

I too have your around with this idea before.
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BryGuy

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Re: Ways but for Treasures
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2022, 10:03:21 am »
0

This is interesting. The more i think about it the more they seam like Heirlooms, but more flexible although maybe too powerful. Maybe consider adding a general rule for their use that would be something like "One Path may be used for only one Treasure card per turn per differently name Treasure in play." This would allow more possibilities that would be less broken.

Then one could state "Worth 3; trash at the start of Clean-up." or "Trash a Treasure for +3"

Then one could state "Worth 1 Potion"

Then one could state "This is also a Night Card. During your Night phase +1 Coffer." Based upon Xen3k's "Ouija Board"

Then one could state "+[2 Coin]; At the start of Clean-up, put in left player's discard." Based upon naitchman's "Gift"

Then one could state "Play a non-Command Treasure from the Supply leaving it there. Each other player may gain a copy of it" Based upon Timinou's "Looking Glass"

Then one could state "+1 Buy; Discard your hand for +[1 Coin] per card discarded this way." Based upon LastFootnote's "Auction"

Then one could state "Trash this to gain a silver"

Then one could state "Trash this to gain a Treasure that cost less than [5 Coin]"

Also include in the rules something similar to other Horizontal cards "No more than 2 Horizontal cards used in any game."
« Last Edit: September 20, 2022, 10:38:14 am by BryGuy »
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BryGuy

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Re: Ways but for Treasures
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2022, 10:06:27 am »
0

consider changing Market Street to "If two different treasures in play, +1 Buy. If four different Treasures in play, +2 Buy."
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