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Author Topic: Sailor/Blockade  (Read 590 times)

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AJD

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Sailor/Blockade
« on: July 26, 2022, 03:54:39 am »
+1

Okay so I play Sailor, and then I play Blockade, gaining Caravan. Caravan is gained directly to set-aside-cards-land (no visiting!), which means Sailor can put Caravan into play immediately. Since the Caravan isn't set aside anymore, Blockade won't make anyone gain Curses. Fine and dandy.

My question is: does Blockade stay in play anyway? Does it still have to try (and fail) to put Caravan in my hand at the start of the next turn? Or does it already "know" that the Caravan is gone and that it won't do anything next turn?

(This is conceptually different from a Gear with nothing set aside, since in this case a Blockade has a specific set-aside card that it's trying to put in your hand; it just can't find it.)

(I suspect the answer is that Blockade is discarded this turn, but I'm not totally certain!)
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AJD

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Re: Sailor/Blockade
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2022, 03:59:33 am »
0

Ah, I see this is already answered on the wiki. Good work, everyone!
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vidicate

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Re: Sailor/Blockade
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2022, 04:33:23 pm »
+2

Ah, I see this is already answered on the wiki. Good work, everyone!
You tease! Just going to leave us hanging? :P ;)
The answer for anyone reading is Blockade is discarded in Clean-up.
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AJD

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Re: Sailor/Blockade
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2022, 12:44:30 am »
+1

Hmm, okay, the wiki also says that if you Band of Misfits / Conjurer, the Band of Misfits stays in play till the next turn. How is that different from the Blockade scenario in my first question? In both situations, a Duration card is supposed to put something in your hand in the next turn, but you already know before Clean-up that the stop-moving rule is going to prevent that from happening. In the case of Blockade, that makes you discard the Blockade during Clean-up (you don't wait for it to try and fail to put the Caravan in your hand), but in the case of Band of Misfits / Conjurer, knowing that you're not going to be doing anything next turn because the targeted card isn't available apparently isn't enough to overrule the card staying play, and you do wait for it to try and fail to put the Conjurer in your hand. Why is that?

I suppose the answer must be because the rule is, Band of Misfits stays in play as long as the Duration card it plays would stay in play if it were in play; and if the Conjurer were in play then it would be going to do something on the next turn because it wouldn't lose track of itself in that situation... but that seems like one too many counterfactuals to really be how the cards are supposed to work, doesn't it?
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kieranmillar

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Re: Sailor/Blockade
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2022, 03:02:42 am »
0

The way I see it, Blockade's duration effect is conditional, if you don't set aside a card on it, no duration effect activates. This is not the case for conjurer, you'll always get a duration effect, and BoM's "leaving it there" stopping it going into your hand next turn doesn't stop the duration effect from activating. Neither Blockade of Conjurer+BoM has anything to do with the stop moving rule.
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AJD

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Re: Sailor/Blockade
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2022, 04:07:29 am »
+1

In the Blockade scenario I described, you do set a card aside with it—you set aside a Caravan (but then after it was set aside it got moved to the play area). The stop-moving rule prevents that Caravan from moving into your hand on the next turn. In the BoM/Conjurer scenario, the stop-moving rule is also what prevents the Conjurer from moving to your hand on your next turn (from the supply). In both cases, there is a specific card that they're supposed to move at the beginning of the next turn, but will be predictably blocked from moving by the stop-moving rule.
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Ingix

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Re: Sailor/Blockade
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2022, 04:14:14 am »
0

The way I see it, Blockade's duration effect is conditional, if you don't set aside a card on it, no duration effect activates.

But that isn't the case here, you did set aside a card with it Blockade. It just didn't stay there for long. Which is different from Gear and not setting any cards aside to begin with.

I think it simply has to be acknowledged that, like many other rules, the rules what Duration cards know about themselves were formed at a time when there were much wider gaps between what "clearly would work" and what "clearly wouldn't work". Situations like with Conjurer, where the next turn effect explicitely depends on the card to be in play to have a meaningful effect just didn't exist then. So intuitons about how Band of Misfits/Conjurer should work out are different.

A Conjurer played normally always stays in play unless it is removed by some external effect (which get fewer and fewer). To me that means a Band of Mistfit playing Conjurer should also stay in play for a turn, even though it is known that the next turn effect will fail.
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Jeebus

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Re: Sailor/Blockade
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2022, 05:34:08 am »
+1

It seems to me that the rulings for these two cards are inconsistent with each other. In both cases, Blockade/Conjurer is tracking a specific card, and then loses track of it before setting up the next-turn ability. The only reason why it wouldn't set up the next-turn ability would be that it lost track of the card, and that is the case for both Blockade and Conjurer.

I suppose the answer must be because the rule is, Band of Misfits stays in play as long as the Duration card it plays would stay in play if it were in play; and if the Conjurer were in play then it would be going to do something on the next turn because it wouldn't lose track of itself in that situation... but that seems like one too many counterfactuals to really be how the cards are supposed to work, doesn't it?

Hmm, yeah I don't think that is a good reason. The rule about not staying in play when losing track is a new rule introduced with Blockade. On the face of it, the same rule applies to BoM + Conjurer, since Conjurer also loses track of the card it's supposed to move next turn. In order to say that BoM does stay in play, we have to add yet another rule as an exception to the first rule, saying that even though we have failed to set up a next-turn ability with Conjurer according to this rule, we wouldn't have failed if we had played Conjurer without using BoM.

Donald X.

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Re: Sailor/Blockade
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2022, 03:38:18 pm »
+5

"Duration cards are not discarded in Clean-up if they have something left to do; they stay in play until the Clean-up of the last turn that they do something."

- A Duration card stays in play until the clean-up of a turn in which it has nothing left to do. So, if Blockade has nothing left to do, it goes away. This has been an issue with e.g. Cargo Ship, where stuff can happen after clean-up. Blockade isn't contributing new behavior here though. If there's no card on it, it has nothing left to do.

"Leave Band of Misfits in play until the Clean-up of the turn the card it played would have left play. Normally that means you'll discard it that turn, but if Band of Misfits plays a Duration card (Duration cards are in other expansions), it will stay out like the Duration card would have, and if Band of Misfits plays a card like Throne Room that plays a Duration card twice, it will stay out in the same way the Throne Room would have."

- A card that plays a Duration card without putting it into play stays in play as long as the Duration card would have. Conjurer normally stays in play until your next turn. It's kind of nonsensical to talk about whether or not a Conjurer not in play "would" stay in play. If you Band of Misfits a Fishing Village, it's not in play, so it wouldn't stay in play; except, we all know, it would stay in play if you played it normally, and that's what the Band of Misfits rule is talking about. Conjurer is unusual here in that what it does next turn involves the Conjurer card itself. If it's not in play it can't do that; if you old-Procession a Conjurer, it won't have anything left to do, and so wouldn't stay in play, even though this is because it's not in play and so no-one would ever ask that and it's a weird nonsensical question. Anyway it's the same here; Conjurer wouldn't actually stay in play, since its conditions fails, confusingly due to it not being in play. So Band of Misfits shouldn't stay in play.
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