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Jeebus

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Urchin "while in play"?
« on: July 17, 2022, 05:35:07 am »
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An old question that I suddenly realized could be relevant in a corner-case. Is Urchin equivalent to "while you have this in play, when you play another Attack"?

If you play an Attack, and gain a copy via Kiln "first", and play Urchin then (via Sheepdog>Mouse>Vassal), does Urchin trigger?

Donald X.

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Re: Urchin "while in play"?
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2022, 01:51:58 pm »
0

An old question that I suddenly realized could be relevant in a corner-case. Is Urchin equivalent to "while you have this in play, when you play another Attack"?

If you play an Attack, and gain a copy via Kiln "first", and play Urchin then (via Sheepdog>Mouse>Vassal), does Urchin trigger?
I'm going with, no, because you didn't play another Attack card with the Urchin in play.

Obv. Urchin should be "this turn"; it's not something getting emergency errata errata though.
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AJD

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Re: Urchin "while in play"?
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2022, 04:25:50 pm »
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Does it even need "this turn"? "When you play another Attack card, you may trash this from play" would seem to have it covered.
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vidicate

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Re: Urchin "while in play"?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2022, 09:15:22 pm »
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If Dark Ages is getting a 2E, and Urchin is being removed (hence no recent wording update for the printers), I really hope we get another trasher-Attack to replace Mercenary. It’s a rare ability, Catapult being the only other straight trasher Attack.

For the same reason I was stoked to see Berserker join Vampire as a straight gainer Attack.

Does it even need "this turn"? "When you play another Attack card, you may trash this from play" would seem to have it covered.
Yes, it does. “This turn” tells you how long the ongoing trigger is in effect for. And for consistency your example would still have the dividing line. A re-write would probably look something like this (with no dividing line):

“This turn, when you play an Attack, you may first trash this from play to gain a Mercenary.”

But I don’t really see the percentage with this change for Urchin, tbh.
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AJD

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Re: Urchin "while in play"?
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2022, 09:23:47 pm »
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Does it even need "this turn"? "When you play another Attack card, you may trash this from play" would seem to have it covered.
Yes, it does. “This turn” tells you how long the ongoing trigger is in effect for.

In what circumstance would the presence of absence of "this turn" make a difference, though? (I agree that the version without "this turn" would probably want a dividing line, but I'm not asking about whether the dividing line would make a difference just the "this turn".)
« Last Edit: July 17, 2022, 09:25:06 pm by AJD »
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vidicate

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Re: Urchin "while in play"?
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2022, 09:46:52 pm »
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Does it even need "this turn"? "When you play another Attack card, you may trash this from play" would seem to have it covered.
Yes, it does. “This turn” tells you how long the ongoing trigger is in effect for.

In what circumstance would the presence of absence of "this turn" make a difference, though? (I agree that the version without "this turn" would probably want a dividing line, but I'm not asking about whether the dividing line would make a difference just the "this turn".)
I don’t think it would make much difference, like my last sentence indicated.

But my response was given under the premise that “this turn” is replacing “while this is in play” effects in general, and you in fact removed “with this in play” (an equivalent expression) in your example. The “this turn” makes that removal valid. (Otherwise the trigger could just be ongoing forever, making the card a bastardized Duration or something.)
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Jeebus

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Re: Urchin "while in play"?
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2022, 12:24:21 am »
+1

Does it even need "this turn"? "When you play another Attack card, you may trash this from play" would seem to have it covered.
Yes, it does. “This turn” tells you how long the ongoing trigger is in effect for.

In what circumstance would the presence of absence of "this turn" make a difference, though? (I agree that the version without "this turn" would probably want a dividing line, but I'm not asking about whether the dividing line would make a difference just the "this turn".)
I don’t think it would make much difference, like my last sentence indicated.

But my response was given under the premise that “this turn” is replacing “while this is in play” effects in general, and you in fact removed “with this in play” (an equivalent expression) in your example. The “this turn” makes that removal valid. (Otherwise the trigger could just be ongoing forever, making the card a bastardized Duration or something.)

AJD's suggestion works fine. It's equivalent to Reactions like "when x, you may reveal this from your hand" etc. Neither "this turn" or "while you have this in play" is needed, because the trigger is always active. (The only problem is that it doesn't specify that "from play" only refers to your play area, which was also the case with old Lighthouse etc., but nowadays Donald has changed it to "when you have this in play".)

Jeebus

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Re: Urchin "while in play"?
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2022, 12:29:37 am »
0

An old question that I suddenly realized could be relevant in a corner-case. Is Urchin equivalent to "while you have this in play, when you play another Attack"?

If you play an Attack, and gain a copy via Kiln "first", and play Urchin then (via Sheepdog>Mouse>Vassal), does Urchin trigger?
I'm going with, no, because you didn't play another Attack card with the Urchin in play.

Obv. Urchin should be "this turn"; it's not something getting emergency errata errata though.

I'm prettty sure that according to the ruling about Goons entering play in the when-buy window when you have bought a card (and other rulings like that), Urchin should trigger. That is, if Urchin is indeed "while you have this in play", which it sounds like you're saying. When you play Urchin, you're still in the "before resolving" window of the played Attack card, which is when Urchin triggers.

GendoIkari

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Re: Urchin "while in play"?
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2022, 10:38:19 am »
+1

Does it even need "this turn"? "When you play another Attack card, you may trash this from play" would seem to have it covered.
Yes, it does. “This turn” tells you how long the ongoing trigger is in effect for.

In what circumstance would the presence of absence of "this turn" make a difference, though? (I agree that the version without "this turn" would probably want a dividing line, but I'm not asking about whether the dividing line would make a difference just the "this turn".)

Not having "this turn" would be super awkward, even if the outcome would be the same. You'd have to do this:

1. Play Urchin.
2. Discard Urchin like normal in clean-up.
3. On a later turn, play an attack.
4. Urchin triggers. Follow the instruction "trash this to gain a Mercenary".
4a. Fail to trash Urchin due to the stop-moving rule.

Every time throughout the entire game that you play an attack card, repeat steps 4 and 4a.
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AJD

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Re: Urchin "while in play"?
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2022, 10:53:06 am »
+1

Does it even need "this turn"? "When you play another Attack card, you may trash this from play" would seem to have it covered.
Yes, it does. “This turn” tells you how long the ongoing trigger is in effect for.

In what circumstance would the presence of absence of "this turn" make a difference, though? (I agree that the version without "this turn" would probably want a dividing line, but I'm not asking about whether the dividing line would make a difference just the "this turn".)

Not having "this turn" would be super awkward, even if the outcome would be the same. You'd have to do this:

1. Play Urchin.
2. Discard Urchin like normal in clean-up.
3. On a later turn, play an attack.
4. Urchin triggers. Follow the instruction "trash this to gain a Mercenary".
4a. Fail to trash Urchin due to the stop-moving rule.

Every time throughout the entire game that you play an attack card, repeat steps 4 and 4a.

4a would be "fail to trash Urchin because it's not in play"; the stop-moving rule is never invoked. (Recall my wording is "you may trash this from play".)

Just like how it's already the case that every time throughout the game that you play an Attack card, every other player's Diplomat triggers, the follow the instruction "you may reveal this from your hand", and then fail to reveal it when it's not in their hand.
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Donald X.

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Re: Urchin "while in play"?
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2022, 01:29:42 pm »
0

An old question that I suddenly realized could be relevant in a corner-case. Is Urchin equivalent to "while you have this in play, when you play another Attack"?

If you play an Attack, and gain a copy via Kiln "first", and play Urchin then (via Sheepdog>Mouse>Vassal), does Urchin trigger?
I'm going with, no, because you didn't play another Attack card with the Urchin in play.

Obv. Urchin should be "this turn"; it's not something getting emergency errata errata though.

I'm prettty sure that according to the ruling about Goons entering play in the when-buy window when you have bought a card (and other rulings like that), Urchin should trigger. That is, if Urchin is indeed "while you have this in play", which it sounds like you're saying. When you play Urchin, you're still in the "before resolving" window of the played Attack card, which is when Urchin triggers.
It resembles the Livery stuff that's gone back and forth.

The wording on Urchin makes my ruling seem clear. Really the problem is that you don't want to word Urchin that way.
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Jeebus

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Re: Urchin "while in play"?
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2022, 01:32:55 pm »
0

An old question that I suddenly realized could be relevant in a corner-case. Is Urchin equivalent to "while you have this in play, when you play another Attack"?

If you play an Attack, and gain a copy via Kiln "first", and play Urchin then (via Sheepdog>Mouse>Vassal), does Urchin trigger?
I'm going with, no, because you didn't play another Attack card with the Urchin in play.

Obv. Urchin should be "this turn"; it's not something getting emergency errata errata though.

I'm prettty sure that according to the ruling about Goons entering play in the when-buy window when you have bought a card (and other rulings like that), Urchin should trigger. That is, if Urchin is indeed "while you have this in play", which it sounds like you're saying. When you play Urchin, you're still in the "before resolving" window of the played Attack card, which is when Urchin triggers.
It resembles the Livery stuff that's gone back and forth.

The wording on Urchin makes my ruling seem clear. Really the problem is that you don't want to word Urchin that way.

Ok, I guess I see what you're saying. "With this is play" is part of the trigger. Which means Urchin is not "while this is in play, when...".

EDIT: It's not a very satisfying interpretation though, because it means that the trigger is "when you have this in play and play another Attack card", which is supposed to be meaningfully different from a card saying "while you have this in play, when you play another Attack card". In other words, having "when you have this is play" be part of a trigger is pretty messy.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2022, 02:15:41 pm by Jeebus »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Urchin "while in play"?
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2022, 01:33:53 pm »
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Does it even need "this turn"? "When you play another Attack card, you may trash this from play" would seem to have it covered.
Yes, it does. “This turn” tells you how long the ongoing trigger is in effect for.

In what circumstance would the presence of absence of "this turn" make a difference, though? (I agree that the version without "this turn" would probably want a dividing line, but I'm not asking about whether the dividing line would make a difference just the "this turn".)

Not having "this turn" would be super awkward, even if the outcome would be the same. You'd have to do this:

1. Play Urchin.
2. Discard Urchin like normal in clean-up.
3. On a later turn, play an attack.
4. Urchin triggers. Follow the instruction "trash this to gain a Mercenary".
4a. Fail to trash Urchin due to the stop-moving rule.

Every time throughout the entire game that you play an attack card, repeat steps 4 and 4a.

4a would be "fail to trash Urchin because it's not in play"; the stop-moving rule is never invoked. (Recall my wording is "you may trash this from play".)


Indeed I missed the "from play" part.

Quote
Just like how it's already the case that every time throughout the game that you play an Attack card, every other player's Diplomat triggers, the follow the instruction "you may reveal this from your hand", and then fail to reveal it when it's not in their hand.

This seems different to me, because the text on Urchin is something you do when you play the card (the thing you do is to set up a future trigger). Reactions in general already have special text that applies at special times, they aren't when-play abilities.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Urchin "while in play"?
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2022, 01:37:22 pm »
0

An old question that I suddenly realized could be relevant in a corner-case. Is Urchin equivalent to "while you have this in play, when you play another Attack"?

If you play an Attack, and gain a copy via Kiln "first", and play Urchin then (via Sheepdog>Mouse>Vassal), does Urchin trigger?
I'm going with, no, because you didn't play another Attack card with the Urchin in play.

Obv. Urchin should be "this turn"; it's not something getting emergency errata errata though.

I'm prettty sure that according to the ruling about Goons entering play in the when-buy window when you have bought a card (and other rulings like that), Urchin should trigger. That is, if Urchin is indeed "while you have this in play", which it sounds like you're saying. When you play Urchin, you're still in the "before resolving" window of the played Attack card, which is when Urchin triggers.
It resembles the Livery stuff that's gone back and forth.

The wording on Urchin makes my ruling seem clear. Really the problem is that you don't want to word Urchin that way.

Ok, I guess I see what you're saying. "With this is play" is part of the trigger. Which means Urchin is not "while this is in play, when...".

I remember back in a somewhat recent Livery rules discussion thread, I argued for a similar interpretation of Livery, that "this turn" could be interpreted as "from now until the end of turn", and that it would be part of the triggering condition itself, not just a time limit during which the thing could trigger.
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Re: Urchin "while in play"?
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2022, 02:07:18 pm »
+1

This seems different to me, because the text on Urchin is something you do when you play the card (the thing you do is to set up a future trigger). Reactions in general already have special text that applies at special times, they aren't when-play abilities.

As I understood it, AJD's suggestion was with a dividing line, so not a when-play ability.

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Re: Urchin "while in play"?
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2022, 02:54:04 pm »
+2

This seems different to me, because the text on Urchin is something you do when you play the card (the thing you do is to set up a future trigger). Reactions in general already have special text that applies at special times, they aren't when-play abilities.

As I understood it, AJD's suggestion was with a dividing line, so not a when-play ability.

Ah, yeah I completely misread it. Then his suggestion changes the card far less than using the new "this turn" wording would. It remains a "while this is in play" ability but without actually using those specific words. I guess whether that's good or not depends on the very specifics of why Donald wants to get rid of "while this is in play". Things like people thinking Throne Room should work with it when it doesn't, like old Goons, don't end up mattering, though only because you can't trash a card twice. And the types of people who think that Throne Room worked with old Goons aren't the types of people to thinking about things like "well technically it triggered twice because you played the card twice, it's just that you can only successfully trash it with 1 of those 2 triggers, you could choose either one but not both".
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Re: Urchin "while in play"?
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2022, 04:42:05 pm »
0

Does it even need "this turn"? "When you play another Attack card, you may trash this from play" would seem to have it covered.
Yes, it does. “This turn” tells you how long the ongoing trigger is in effect for.

In what circumstance would the presence of absence of "this turn" make a difference, though? (I agree that the version without "this turn" would probably want a dividing line, but I'm not asking about whether the dividing line would make a difference just the "this turn".)
I don’t think it would make much difference, like my last sentence indicated.

But my response was given under the premise that “this turn” is replacing “while this is in play” effects in general, and you in fact removed “with this in play” (an equivalent expression) in your example. The “this turn” makes that removal valid. (Otherwise the trigger could just be ongoing forever, making the card a bastardized Duration or something.)

AJD's suggestion works fine. It's equivalent to Reactions like "when x, you may reveal this from your hand" etc. Neither "this turn" or "while you have this in play" is needed, because the trigger is always active. (The only problem is that it doesn't specify that "from play" only refers to your play area, which was also the case with old Lighthouse etc., but nowadays Donald has changed it to "when you have this in play".)

Interesting. Does any card exist that sets up a trigger on play that doesn’t specify when or how long that trigger is active?
We can talk about how this goofy “trigger always active” version of Urchin would work, but that discussion, while fun for theory-crafting, was beyond the scope of what I was addressing—consistency with Dominion’s other cards and wordings.


An old question that I suddenly realized could be relevant in a corner-case. Is Urchin equivalent to "while you have this in play, when you play another Attack"?

If you play an Attack, and gain a copy via Kiln "first", and play Urchin then (via Sheepdog>Mouse>Vassal), does Urchin trigger?
I'm going with, no, because you didn't play another Attack card with the Urchin in play.

Obv. Urchin should be "this turn"; it's not something getting emergency errata errata though.

I'm prettty sure that according to the ruling about Goons entering play in the when-buy window when you have bought a card (and other rulings like that), Urchin should trigger. That is, if Urchin is indeed "while you have this in play", which it sounds like you're saying. When you play Urchin, you're still in the "before resolving" window of the played Attack card, which is when Urchin triggers.
It resembles the Livery stuff that's gone back and forth.

The wording on Urchin makes my ruling seem clear. Really the problem is that you don't want to word Urchin that way.

Ok, I guess I see what you're saying. "With this is play" is part of the trigger. Which means Urchin is not "while this is in play, when...".

EDIT: It's not a very satisfying interpretation though, because it means that the trigger is "when you have this in play and play another Attack card", which is supposed to be meaningfully different from a card saying "while you have this in play, when you play another Attack card". In other words, having "when you have this is play" be part of a trigger is pretty messy.


Back to your original question, are you interpreting the “first” on Kiln to mean you haven’t actually started to play the card (Attack) yet? Clearly you have started to play it, but the official FAQ regarding Moat’s reaction does lend itself to your question. I think Moat’s reaction triggers, but then takes a back seat to what Kiln says (because of the “first”) before the Moat holder can act on that trigger. Meanwhile your Urchin shows up after the Attack was initially played. (Per another ruling, Kiln’s trigger has the same timing as the Adventures tokens.)
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GendoIkari

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Re: Urchin "while in play"?
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2022, 08:53:55 pm »
+2

Back to your original question, are you interpreting the “first” on Kiln to mean you haven’t actually started to play the card (Attack) yet? Clearly you have started to play it, but the official FAQ regarding Moat’s reaction does lend itself to your question. I think Moat’s reaction triggers, but then takes a back seat to what Kiln says (because of the “first”) before the Moat holder can act on that trigger. Meanwhile your Urchin shows up after the Attack was initially played. (Per another ruling, Kiln’s trigger has the same timing as the Adventures tokens.)

Pretty sure he used Kiln as the example because Urchin has a "first" and so does Kilk; he was picking something that had the same timing window. If Kiln didn't say "first", then there wouldn't be a question to ask, by the time Kiln triggers and lets you play the Urchin, it is clearly too late for Urchin to do anything, because it is no longer during the "when play, first" timing. Moat, Kiln, and Urchin all have the same timing, they trigger after the card is put into play, but before the on-play instructions of the card are followed. Yes you have started to play the card, but that's not really relevant to the question; what's relevant is that the trigger window is the same.
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Re: Urchin "while in play"?
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2022, 03:08:30 am »
+1

Interesting. Does any card exist that sets up a trigger on play that doesn’t specify when or how long that trigger is active?

That would be the same as saying it's active for the rest of the game (or beyond! (not really)).
There are three cards that do this: Champion, Hireling and Prince. But they do say "for the rest of the game", or in the case of Prince "each of your turns".

(in theory Prince could reach beyond the current game, but that would be the same as saying that "next turn" effects that are set up on the last turn would carry over into the next game, which is very silly indeed.)

Back to your original question, are you interpreting the “first” on Kiln to mean you haven’t actually started to play the card (Attack) yet? Clearly you have started to play it, but the official FAQ regarding Moat’s reaction does lend itself to your question. I think Moat’s reaction triggers, but then takes a back seat to what Kiln says (because of the “first”) before the Moat holder can act on that trigger. Meanwhile your Urchin shows up after the Attack was initially played. (Per another ruling, Kiln’s trigger has the same timing as the Adventures tokens.)
Donald has confirmed that all of those (Urchin, Kiln, Reactions, Adventures tokens) trigger before you start resolving the played card.

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Re: Urchin "while in play"?
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2022, 05:20:08 am »
+1

Some tangentially related thoughts on triggers in Dominion, when resolving other triggered abilities first...
The red ones don't currently exist in Dominion.

1) While this is in play, when you gain a card, +1 VP.
This triggers if it's in play, and also if it enters play from another when-gain ability. When you resolve it, you get +1 VP whether it's still in play or not.

2) When you gain a card, if this is in play, +1 VP.
This triggers whether it's in play or not. When you resolve it, you only get +1 VP if it's in play then.

3) When you gain a card with this in play, +1 VP.
This only triggers if it's in play right then. When you resolve it, you get +1 VP whether it's still in play or not.

Equivalent triggers for checking if you have $:

1) While you have $2, when you gain a card, +1 VP. [This is weird of course, but should work like this]
This triggers if you have $2 or if you get $2 from another when-gain. When you resolve it, you get +1 VP no matter what.

2) When you gain a card, if you have $2, +1 VP.
This triggers no matter what. When you resolve it, you only get +1 VP if you have $2 then.

3) When you gain a card with $2 left, +1 VP.
This only triggers if you have $2 right then. When you resolve it, you get +1 VP no matter what.

Equivalent triggers for checking the type (was relevant with old BoM and Inheritance):

1) While a card is an Action card, when you gain it, +1 VP. [Even weirder, but should work like this]
This triggers if you gain an Action or if you gain a card that gets the Action type from another when-gain. When you resolve it, you get +1 VP no matter what.

2) When you gain a card, if it's an Action, +1 VP.
This triggers no matter what. When you resolve it, you only get +1 VP if the gained card is an Action then.

3) When you gain an Action card, +1 VP.
This only triggers if you gain a card that is an Action right then. When you resolve it, you get +1 VP no matter if the card is still an Action.
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