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Author Topic: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3  (Read 10577 times)

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faust

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Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« Reply #75 on: July 18, 2022, 08:31:39 am »
0

"When you discard this" is a reaction so that it works when the card could be otherwise hidden (if something else was discarded on top of it) as well as to remind players about it (same as with patron)

How does it help that it's blue if it's hidden?

Patron is presumably blue because it's easy to miss the below-the-line stuff when you're just revealing it. "When-gain" is not so easy to miss, because you would usually look more closely at a card you're gaining. But discarding and trashing seem pretty similar; both could involve several cards at once.
Maybe I'm simply trying to engineer a sensible solution, but a central difference between "when-trash" and "when-discard" is that "when-trash" does something while the card is not yours. You should clearly only be able to react with a Reaction if the Reaction is actually yours, so in this view it make sense to have "when-discard" be a Reaction but "when-trash" not.
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Donald X.

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Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« Reply #76 on: July 18, 2022, 01:20:12 pm »
+3

It was a question back when, should I color when-gain and when-trash.

The key thing for me is to draw your attention to a card you're not paying attention to. Moat isn't involved in anything when you get attacked; it has to draw your attention. Well. Gaining a card means you're already paying attention to it. You can argue that you're also paying attention to the card you're discarding, but it can be e.g. "your hand" due to Minion.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« Reply #77 on: July 18, 2022, 01:59:48 pm »
+2

It was a question back when, should I color when-gain and when-trash.

The key thing for me is to draw your attention to a card you're not paying attention to. Moat isn't involved in anything when you get attacked; it has to draw your attention. Well. Gaining a card means you're already paying attention to it. You can argue that you're also paying attention to the card you're discarding, but it can be e.g. "your hand" due to Minion.

But now someone like me is going to point out that Count can trash "your hand", and if Fortress is in it, you still have to know to deal with that.

There's also something of a consistent explanation about public vs non-public locations. A card being trashed is moved to a public place. A card being gained is moving from a public place. A card being discarded may be going from a private place to another private place.
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Jeebus

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Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« Reply #78 on: July 18, 2022, 02:10:23 pm »
0

But now someone like me is going to point out that Count can trash "your hand", and if Fortress is in it, you still have to know to deal with that.
And me, in my previous post.  :P

There's also something of a consistent explanation about public vs non-public locations. A card being trashed is moved to a public place. A card being gained is moving from a public place. A card being discarded may be going from a private place to another private place.
Not really, since all the when-discard cards have rules saying that you have to reveal them.

joefarebrother

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Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« Reply #79 on: July 18, 2022, 02:11:37 pm »
+3

right but you're revealing them *from* a private zone
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« Reply #80 on: July 18, 2022, 02:15:04 pm »
+2

"When you discard this" is a reaction so that it works when the card could be otherwise hidden (if something else was discarded on top of it) as well as to remind players about it (same as with patron)

How does it help that it's blue if it's hidden?

Patron is presumably blue because it's easy to miss the below-the-line stuff when you're just revealing it. "When-gain" is not so easy to miss, because you would usually look more closely at a card you're gaining. But discarding and trashing seem pretty similar; both could involve several cards at once.

Another thing to consider is that on-gain effects are already depleted by the first time you have the card in hand, so the blue color would be misleading.

And with regards to trashing, well, trashing already mandates paying big attention to the card as you loose it. Discarding less so. Especially Tunnel as that is a Victory card. And on top of that, the trash effect only occurs once, while the discard effect could occur every shuffle.

But it is also just historically determined.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« Reply #81 on: July 18, 2022, 02:58:14 pm »
0


And with regards to trashing, well, trashing already mandates paying big attention to the card as you loose it. Discarding less so.

I'm pretty sure I remember Donald basically saying this exact thing about why Fortress wasn't a reaction; that trashing is already something you pay close attention to.
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pate

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Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« Reply #82 on: July 26, 2022, 01:49:58 am »
0

So has any one got a physical copy of hinterlands yet?  If so when?
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Jeebus

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Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« Reply #83 on: July 26, 2022, 04:54:48 am »
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Fair point about cards you pay attention to. (You pay more attention to cards you're trashing than cards you're discarding maybe.) But the following is still not a valid point, although people seem to think so:

There's also something of a consistent explanation about public vs non-public locations. A card being trashed is moved to a public place. A card being gained is moving from a public place. A card being discarded may be going from a private place to another private place.
Not really, since all the when-discard cards have rules saying that you have to reveal them.
right but you're revealing them *from* a private zone

And you're trashing cards from a private zone; you're most often trashing cards from your hand. Both discarding and trashing can be from your hand or from somewhere else, and both are pretty normal for both.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 03:28:06 pm by Jeebus »
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faust

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Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« Reply #84 on: July 26, 2022, 05:04:40 am »
+1

Fair point about cards you pay attention to. (You pay more attention to cards you're trashing than cards you're discarding maybe.) But the following is still not a valid point, although people seem to think so:

There's also something of a consistent explanation about public vs non-public locations. A card being trashed is moved to a public place. A card being gained is moving from a public place. A card being discarded may be going from a private place to another private place.
Not really, since all the when-discard cards have rules saying that you have to reveal them.
right but you're revealing them *from* a private zone

And you're trashing cards from a private zone; you're most often trashing cards from your hand. Both discarding and trashing can be from your hand or from somewhere else, and both are pretty normal for both.
But by the time the when-trash effect takes place, the card is in the (public) trash, no?
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Jeebus

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Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« Reply #85 on: July 26, 2022, 05:08:36 am »
0

But by the time the when-trash effect takes place, the card is in the (public) trash, no?
Yes, we discussed that already in the posts you're quoting. You're moving a card being trashed to a public place, but that is also the case for a card being discarded.

Holger

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Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« Reply #86 on: July 26, 2022, 05:52:12 am »
+4

But by the time the when-trash effect takes place, the card is in the (public) trash, no?
Yes, we discussed that already in the posts you're quoting. You're moving a card being trashed to a public place, but that is also the case for a card being discarded.

GendoIkari is right, not all discards happen publicly: e.g. discarding your hand to Minion, where other players only see the top card you discarded. So the other hand cards go from a private place (hand) to a completely hidden place (discard pile), without being revealed before discarding.
Same with Cartographer from this expansion when you discard several cards - though in this case, since you have carefully chosen which cards to discard, you'll rarely miss a discard reaction anyway.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 06:02:17 am by Holger »
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Jeebus

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Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« Reply #87 on: July 26, 2022, 08:07:29 am »
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But by the time the when-trash effect takes place, the card is in the (public) trash, no?
Yes, we discussed that already in the posts you're quoting. You're moving a card being trashed to a public place, but that is also the case for a card being discarded.

GendoIkari is right, not all discards happen publicly: e.g. discarding your hand to Minion, where other players only see the top card you discarded. So the other hand cards go from a private place (hand) to a completely hidden place (discard pile), without being revealed before discarding.
Same with Cartographer from this expansion when you discard several cards - though in this case, since you have carefully chosen which cards to discard, you'll rarely miss a discard reaction anyway.

I guess you're agreeing that "revealing from a private zone" is not a valid argument.
Ok, so now we're back to revealing discarding to a private zone. As I said: "Not really, since all the when-discard cards have rules saying that you have to reveal them."
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 11:51:13 am by Jeebus »
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AJD

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Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« Reply #88 on: July 26, 2022, 11:28:05 am »
+1

But by the time the when-trash effect takes place, the card is in the (public) trash, no?
Yes, we discussed that already in the posts you're quoting. You're moving a card being trashed to a public place, but that is also the case for a card being discarded.

GendoIkari is right, not all discards happen publicly: e.g. discarding your hand to Minion, where other players only see the top card you discarded. So the other hand cards go from a private place (hand) to a completely hidden place (discard pile), without being revealed before discarding.
Same with Cartographer from this expansion when you discard several cards - though in this case, since you have carefully chosen which cards to discard, you'll rarely miss a discard reaction anyway.

I guess you're agreeing that "revealing from a private zone" is not a valid argument.

No? The discard pile (other than the top card) is a private zone. If you discard a few cards, no one will ever know what the third one from the top is unless you reveal it. If you reveal that the third one is a Tunnel, you're revealing it from a private zone. Similarly, if you have a bunch of cards in your hand, no one will know that the third one is a Moat unless you reveal it. I'm not sure what you're objecting to in that analysis.

Quote
Ok, so now we're back to revealing to a private zone. As I said: "Not really, since all the when-discard cards have rules saying that you have to reveal them."

The reason you have to reveal them is because the discard pile is a private zone. Catacombs doesn't say "when you trash this, reveal it and gain a cheaper card"; you don't have to reveal it because the trash is already visible. Tunnel doesn't say "when you discard this, you may gain a Gold"; you have to reveal it, for the same reason Trader doesn't say "while this is in your hand, when you gain a card, you may exchange the gained card for a Silver."
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Jeebus

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Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« Reply #89 on: July 26, 2022, 11:57:27 am »
+2

Sorry! I've been reading and writing the wrong verb several times.
When Joefarebrother wrote "right but you're revealing them *from* a private zone" I misread and thought he was talking about discarding, not revealing. (The emphasis on "from" confused me.) And then in my last post, I even wrote "reveal" when I meant "discard". :p

So I have to start again. Yes, now the argument makes more sense. Hmmm. I guess I was thinking that there's a special rule for when-discard cards that you have to reveal them, even Village Green, Weaver and Trail, which are moved to play for all to see. There's no such rule for Sheepdog etc.

Donald X.

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Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« Reply #90 on: July 26, 2022, 02:48:36 pm »
+1

So has any one got a physical copy of hinterlands yet?  If so when?
Mine showed up Saturday.
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Holger

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Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« Reply #91 on: July 26, 2022, 04:02:31 pm »
+1

Sorry! I've been reading and writing the wrong verb several times.
When Joefarebrother wrote "right but you're revealing them *from* a private zone" I misread and thought he was talking about discarding, not revealing. (The emphasis on "from" confused me.) And then in my last post, I even wrote "reveal" when I meant "discard". :p

So I have to start again. Yes, now the argument makes more sense. Hmmm. I guess I was thinking that there's a special rule for when-discard cards that you have to reveal them, even Village Green, Weaver and Trail, which are moved to play for all to see. There's no such rule for Sheepdog etc.

Actually, Tunnel is the only "when discard" card with an explicit "reveal", for accountability reasons. The other "when discard" cards (Trail, Weaver, Village Green and Faithful Hound) do not have it, since they already become public by being played/set aside when you use their "when discard" ability, just like Fortress becomes public when trashed (for a single moment).

So discarding in general is different from gaining/trashing in terms of "publicness",  though it's debatable whether this is a good reason for deciding what should be a Reaction - as discussed, all "when discard" Reactions specifically make themselves public while reacting. There's also the case of Patron's "when reveal" - it's triggered from a public position by definition, yet it is a Reaction.
 
I do think that without the colouring, it would be easier to miss e.g. Weaver's ability with a Minion discard, than to miss Fortress' ability when trashing it. But that's unrelated to public/private information; like Donald said, the point is "to draw your attention to a card you're not paying attention to".

FWIW, I wish Scheme was a Reaction, for that same reason. In RL games, I forget to use its clean-up ability about half the time I've played it... :-[
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Jeebus

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Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« Reply #92 on: July 26, 2022, 04:51:25 pm »
0

Actually, Tunnel is the only "when discard" card with an explicit "reveal", for accountability reasons. The other "when discard" cards (Trail, Weaver, Village Green and Faithful Hound) do not have it
It's in the Hinterlands rulebook.

Spookyverse

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Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« Reply #93 on: August 29, 2022, 07:32:40 am »
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All together, the three update packs amount to 27 new cards - a full expansion, out of nowhere.

Thanks for the new cards and the explanations. If those 27 cards really were a full expansion by themselves, then there would be recommended kingdoms containing the new cards from across Seaside, Prosperity and Hinterlands, right? So any chance for some recommended kingdoms containing more than 2 expansions?
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Donald X.

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Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« Reply #94 on: August 29, 2022, 01:10:32 pm »
+2

All together, the three update packs amount to 27 new cards - a full expansion, out of nowhere.

Thanks for the new cards and the explanations. If those 27 cards really were a full expansion by themselves, then there would be recommended kingdoms containing the new cards from across Seaside, Prosperity and Hinterlands, right? So any chance for some recommended kingdoms containing more than 2 expansions?
Making recommended sets is work I am not especially interested in doing. Other people make them though, for example Kieran Millar has a site with a bunch, and the Dominion Reddit has a kingdom of the week.
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