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Author Topic: 2022 Additional Errata  (Read 8513 times)

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dane-m

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2022, 10:27:28 am »
+1

No longer will I be able to ask people the question "In what scenario can one spend the +$1 from Storyteller?"  Admittedly not the greatest loss in the world.
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jonaskoelker

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2022, 12:59:58 pm »
+1

Given this errata I guess Plan on Ruins became stronger vs. Cultist.

In what scenario can one spend the +$1 from Storyteller?

Black Market via either Crown or Capitalism
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LastFootnote

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2022, 01:16:59 pm »
0

No longer will I be able to ask people the question "In what scenario can one spend the +$1 from Storyteller?"  Admittedly not the greatest loss in the world.

Every time? If nothing else, you spent it automatically to draw a card.
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GendoIkari

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2022, 01:55:01 pm »
0

It seems very weird that Highway isn't on the list. Weird enough to make me think that it's about to be cut.
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spineflu

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2022, 02:05:17 pm »
0

with the new overpay, are we losing the "+" in the overpayable cards' costs? or is that a quirk of shuffle.it?
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LastFootnote

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2022, 02:10:36 pm »
+5

It seems very weird that Highway isn't on the list. Weird enough to make me think that it's about to be cut.

No Hinterlands errata is on this list. It's going to be on the last day of Hinterlands previews.
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Gherald

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2022, 02:26:45 pm »
+1

It always was weird that Storyteller gave 1 coin that would nearly always be spent by it on drawing; people remarked on this when it was first released.

Bonfire feels misnamed now that it only burns...Coppers? More of a "Smelt" event or something, sad to lose the flexibility.

Basilica not having a bought/buy phase qualifier is strange (and more swingy)

Exploration was a weak project that you could sometimes do interesting non-buy gains with, but no longer. Even more ignorable now generally.
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LastFootnote

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2022, 03:01:36 pm »
0

It always was weird that Storyteller gave 1 coin that would nearly always be spent by it on drawing; people remarked on this when it was first released.

Yeah, although this new version has its own awkwardness.

Bonfire feels misnamed now that it only burns...Coppers? More of a "Smelt" event or something, sad to lose the flexibility.

I strongly agree on both counts. The flavor is pretty bad now and it's sad to lose the interactions.

Exploration was a weak project that you could sometimes do interesting non-buy gains with, but no longer. Even more ignorable now generally.

Exploration is often worth buying and just getting the bonus once at that time, for what that's worth.
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spineflu

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2022, 05:10:33 pm »
+2

Bonfire feels misnamed now that it only burns...Coppers? More of a "Smelt" event

The flavor is pretty bad now

what, you don't like fish? :wandering_minstrel_art_closeup.jpg:
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Awaclus

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2022, 05:43:15 pm »
0

Exploration is often worth buying and just getting the bonus once at that time, for what that's worth.

If it's worth it to buy it just to get the bonus once, isn't it probably also worth it to skip buying something on a later $4 or worse turn to get it again? Sure, the first unspent Villager you have is more valuable than the second, so as long as it remains unspent, maybe the first one was only barely worth it and the second one isn't quite, and you could plausibly never have another $4 or worse turn for the rest of the game, so this could indeed be the right play — but there is also an obvious pitfall here because buying the Exploration feels like you're spending your money while skipping your buy phase without buying anything feels like you're wasting it, even though they're not actually substantially different.

(I'm not really disagreeing with you though, just bringing up a related point that feels worth mentioning)
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CaptainTheo

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2022, 05:57:24 pm »
+3

I'm puzzled by some of these changes, such as:
  • Hermit being heavily nerfed, as you can no longer exchange it for a Madman if you buy an Event that gains cards, or play a gainer like Horn of Plenty in your Buy phase. Nor can it use the Scheme or Prince trick to both top-deck it and gain a Madman. The only upside is that a Hermit who goes mad returns to the supply instead of being trashed, making it possible to have more of both cards.
  • This also nerfs Exploration significantly for similar reasons.
  • Bonfire being nerfed. This isn't such a big deal as I normally just use it to trash Copper anyway and it's still a good card but the rule change seems unnecessarily.
  • Normally errata in Dominion simplifies cards but this seems to have done the opposite with the presence of "non-Duration actions", which seems unnecessary to really refer to, along with "gain a card you bought", as I cannot see any problem with the original wording, which was the much simpler "buy" and means the same thing.
Prince is also nerfed marginally as it doesn't work with Band of Misfits any more (not that you could anyway without a discount) or the occasional edge case when it works with a Duration like Gear that you can get use out of without using its Duration effect. Modifying this one makes sense as as normally you don't want to set aside Durations with it, as does changing its type as it does function like a Duration and Command.

Many cards have been buffed, such as all the cards whose effect now applies when the card is gained in any way, not just bought, ie Port, Hovel, Basilica, Defiled Shrine, Forum, Plan. I don't have a problem with this, but it's weird that the opposite was done with Hermit/Exploration.

The other big set of cards to be buffed are the discounters, making them all Throne-Room-able, which is fine as it is consistent with Bridge and we'd been told that this was happen. It's not strictly a buff as they can't feasibly be played as Ways any more.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2022, 05:59:00 pm by CaptainTheo »
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Donald X.

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2022, 07:30:53 pm »
+2

There was no goal of buffing or nerfing any cards; that was simply not a factor. In all cases the goal was fixing problems.

  • Hermit being heavily nerfed, as you can no longer exchange it for a Madman if you buy an Event that gains cards, or play a gainer like Horn of Plenty in your Buy phase. Nor can it use the Scheme or Prince trick to both top-deck it and gain a Madman. The only upside is that a Hermit who goes mad returns to the supply instead of being trashed, making it possible to have more of both cards.
What you call "heavily nerfed" I would call "identical in most games." Most games do not have an Event that gains cards to use with Hermit.

Whereas, every game with Hermit has the Hermit pile, so Hermit now returning to the pile and so not limiting you to 10 Madman plays per game is a significant change.

But again, the point wasn't to nerf Hermit (a super-strong card); the point was to have a better wording for it.

  • This also nerfs Exploration significantly for similar reasons.
Again most games Exploration is not paired with an Event that gains cards.

  • Bonfire being nerfed. This isn't such a big deal as I normally just use it to trash Copper anyway and it's still a good card but the rule change seems unnecessarily.
Trashing arbitrary cards from play breaks the game. That's why I changed it; to not break the game. Going into play uses up a card for the turn; taking it out of play lets you reuse it and generate loops.

In this particular case I could fix this while having almost no effect on the card's gameplay; you were already trashing Coppers with it.

  • Normally errata in Dominion simplifies cards but this seems to have done the opposite with the presence of "non-Duration actions", which seems unnecessary to really refer to, along with "gain a card you bought", as I cannot see any problem with the original wording, which was the much simpler "buy" and means the same thing.
"When you buy this" and "When you gain this, if you bought it" are in fact not the same functionally. They happen at different times.

And that's why those cards changed; because so many players conflate buy and gain, and are confused when Workshop on Ports doesn't gain them one, or when a when-buy trigger happens before a when-gain instead of letting them order it, and so on. In a few cases I could not just use "gain" as it generated loops or other problems, and so those have that awful wording, "when you gain a card you bought." A few of those are "When you gain a card in your Buy phase" instead, which is simpler but was again not always usable.
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Donald X.

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2022, 07:31:53 pm »
+1

Bonfire feels misnamed now that it only burns...Coppers? More of a "Smelt" event or something, sad to lose the flexibility.

I strongly agree on both counts. The flavor is pretty bad now and it's sad to lose the interactions.
Flavor was not a consideration, for sure, since this was fixing a published card rather than making a new one.

I continue to be happy to have fixed this broken card, despite your objections.
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CaptainTheo

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2022, 07:54:37 pm »
+1

Thankyou for these explanations, appreciated.
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tk9077

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2022, 08:44:54 am »
+2

I have a random, maybe silly question, but was still curious on any thoughts from the community. How are folks thinking of incorporating these errata into the physical games? Should we continue to play the cards as printed, or ignore the printed text and imagine they have the new text, or get crafty and print stickers with the new text to place on existing cards? I am trying to get ideas on if/how I can update my physical copies, or if I should just not worry about it.
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Imrahil3

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2022, 09:37:49 am »
+1

I have a random, maybe silly question, but was still curious on any thoughts from the community. How are folks thinking of incorporating these errata into the physical games? Should we continue to play the cards as printed, or ignore the printed text and imagine they have the new text, or get crafty and print stickers with the new text to place on existing cards? I am trying to get ideas on if/how I can update my physical copies, or if I should just not worry about it.

Donald’s general take is that we can play however we want IRL. Personally, I think it’s best to use general errata (ie Coffers can be spent at any time during Buy phase) and ignore card-specific errata (changes to Bonfire). Easier to remember what’s written on the card in front of you than what’s written on the forums, or Reddit, or wait where did I see that errata again?

But, if your group plays online a lot as well, I’d go with all official errata.
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vidicate

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2022, 10:21:02 am »
+1

I have a random, maybe silly question, but was still curious on any thoughts from the community. How are folks thinking of incorporating these errata into the physical games? Should we continue to play the cards as printed, or ignore the printed text and imagine they have the new text, or get crafty and print stickers with the new text to place on existing cards? I am trying to get ideas on if/how I can update my physical copies, or if I should just not worry about it.

Donald’s general take is that we can play however we want IRL. Personally, I think it’s best to use general errata (ie Coffers can be spent at any time during Buy phase) and ignore card-specific errata (changes to Bonfire). Easier to remember what’s written on the card in front of you than what’s written on the forums, or Reddit, or wait where did I see that errata again?

Yeah the Don really isn’t going to care if, and even assumes, players will play they’re printed cards the same as always. That’s not the point of these changes.

Quote
But, if your group plays online a lot as well, I’d go with all official errata.

Even then, most cards it’s not going to make a huge difference. So if you have people who can’t remember all the changes, you’ll still be fine if you end up playing cards as written. (I’m not disagreeing with you, but just stating this for the benefit of the asker.)
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Imrahil3

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2022, 10:36:13 am »
+2

Good call - it’s probably most important to follow errata where it presents a jarring shift in what a card does rather than the “everything is the same except one edge case is slightly different” situations.
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dane-m

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2022, 12:12:21 pm »
0

How are folks thinking of incorporating these errata into the physical games? Should we continue to play the cards as printed, or ignore the printed text and imagine they have the new text, or get crafty and print stickers with the new text to place on existing cards? I am trying to get ideas on if/how I can update my physical copies, or if I should just not worry about it.
I have my cards sleeved, so for some time I had been contemplating inserting paper slips with the new text so that on the rare occasions that I shall play ftf in the future I wouldn't find myself misplaying cards by automatically using my memory of what they do in online play.

One concern I had was that maybe my ftf opponents would object to all the art work being hidden, though as they are all of a similar vintage to me, they might have considered that a small price to pay for having the instructions in a large font.

A more major concern was whether it would be possible by feel to detect whether a sleeve had a paper slip in it or not.  I wasn't concerned that players might deliberately seek to identify the top card of their deck – I have great faith in the integrity of my ftf opponents – but rather that they might accidentally identify it and then, because of their integrity, find themselves wondering how they should react to the knowledge.  With so many cards now having errata that concern is disappearing because there are likely to be several modified cards in any Kingdom, plus enough unmodified cards that it wouldn't even be possible to know by feel whether a card was one of the base Treasure and Victory ones.

Whether I can get off my backside long enough to do all the necessary printing and guillotining of sheets of paper to add the errata to all the cards in my collection is another matter.  :(
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LastFootnote

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2022, 12:26:31 pm »
0

I continue to be happy to have fixed this broken card, despite your objections.

Well that's unfair and misleading. I never objected to it being fixed. Just to it being restricted to Coppers.
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JW

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2022, 12:39:21 pm »
+1

I continue to be happy to have fixed this broken card, despite your objections.

Well that's unfair and misleading. I never objected to it being fixed. Just to it being restricted to Coppers.

Changing Bonfire to non-Duration is a clear fix. What else needs to be done to avoid potentially problematic rules interactions? A per turn limit to avoid loops?
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LastFootnote

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #46 on: June 28, 2022, 01:11:14 pm »
+1

I continue to be happy to have fixed this broken card, despite your objections.

Well that's unfair and misleading. I never objected to it being fixed. Just to it being restricted to Coppers.

Changing Bonfire to non-Duration is a clear fix. What else needs to be done to avoid potentially problematic rules interactions? A per turn limit to avoid loops?

It’s my understanding that “non-Duration” would have been a sufficient fix.
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Donald X.

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #47 on: June 28, 2022, 02:22:39 pm »
+2

I continue to be happy to have fixed this broken card, despite your objections.

Well that's unfair and misleading. I never objected to it being fixed. Just to it being restricted to Coppers.
It has always sounded like you do in fact object to me fixing the problem of Bonfire trashing arbitrary cards from play. It seems to me that you think of the Duration thing as a problem, but that's it; so, why not just non-Duration? But there was another problem and I fixed that one too.

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LastFootnote

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #48 on: June 28, 2022, 02:36:55 pm »
+1

I continue to be happy to have fixed this broken card, despite your objections.

Well that's unfair and misleading. I never objected to it being fixed. Just to it being restricted to Coppers.
It has always sounded like you do in fact object to me fixing the problem of Bonfire trashing arbitrary cards from play. It seems to me that you think of the Duration thing as a problem, but that's it; so, why not just non-Duration? But there was another problem and I fixed that one too.

Well I guess I forgot there was another problem, and that's on me. Sorry about that.
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Gherald

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Re: 2022 Additional Errata
« Reply #49 on: June 28, 2022, 04:06:27 pm »
+6

*idly wonders what the other mysterious problem was*
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