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Author Topic: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.  (Read 1889 times)

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pacovf

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2022, 04:59:55 pm »
+5

Upvoted the original post just for the sheer audacity of the "copper strategist" phrase. ClouduHieh, if that's the way you enjoy playing the game, then all the more fun to you!
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Awaclus

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2022, 06:19:49 pm »
+3

Wait you consider rats a junk card? You guys do know that rats is Donald x vaccarino s favorite card right? Do you really want to call it junk? 😂.

Yeah. Here's some more context to it being Donald X.'s favorite card:

Rats is my favorite Dominion card. Now you know that about me. You give your kingdom a rat problem. Sure, you get rid of some garbage, but now you've got Rats, and they don't get rid of themselves. Isn't the solution worse than the problem?

The point of Rats is that it replaces your junk cards with other junk cards, specifically ones that cost $4 and give you +1 card when trashed. You'd much rather Apprentice a Rats than a Copper, for example. But if you don't have any way of getting rid of the Rats, they're literally just junk cards — after you have trashed your 10 starting cards, every Rats you play will trash a good card, which means you have to stop playing them, which means you have 10 cards you can't play instead of the 10 cards that did at least a little bit of something. Gaining more junk cards to feed the Rats isn't a good idea either, because the Rats are handsize-decreasing cantrips.

The not-immediately-obvious thing about draw in Dominion is that +1 card is not actually drawing cards. If you have five cards in hand and one action, and you play a card with +1 card +1 action, you still have five cards in hand and one action, so unless the card also did something else, nothing changed. This is relevant to both Rats and Storyteller. In order to meaningfully draw cards, you have to end up with a larger handsize than you started with, and this doesn't happen when you play a Rats or play a Storyteller with just Copper. (Playing Coppers with Storyteller is still useful, if a bit weak for $5, because it lets you sift through the Coppers in your deck, but deliberately having Coppers so that you get to sift through them with Storyteller is not.)

Thanks awaculus for clarifying that. Although I’m still not sure on how all that works. I just wished it was more like leveling up in a video game, where you can lose your level.  So if I’m 0.44 what’s the highest you can go and the Lowest you can go.

It is a pretty complicated system and I don't understand the details either, but the big picture is easy enough to understand. The point is to measure your skill level relative to the average player, so being able to lose points when you lose games necessarily has to be a part of it, otherwise people who play the most would have the most points even if they're not the best players.

You're -0.44, not 0.44 (or were on June 1 2019 — you're -1.63 now but that estimation could be inaccurate because you haven't played a lot of games recently). You start at 0 and you go up when you win games and down when you lose, and how much it changes by depends on what the skill difference is between you and the opponent and in which direction. I don't think there is a hard limit for how high or low you can go, but currently f_____t_ is the only player with a µ above 3 (theirs is 3.197) and probably the lowest µs are somewhat lower than -3 because it's easier to be way worse than average than it is to be way better than average.

So the µ is the system's best estimate for your skill level relative to the average, but it's just an estimate. Then there is also a φ which is always positive and measures how much uncertainty there is in the estimate — it generally goes down the more you play, and increases every day if you don't — and the system is 95% confident your skill level is somewhere between µ-2φ and µ+2φ. This is why the main rating on the site is based on µ-2φ, because even though you are probably better than that, it's almost sure you're at least that good. And the µ-2φ value is multiplied by 7.5 and then 50 is added to it to make it a bigger number, which makes it nicer to look at, which is why the average displayed rating is probably more like 45–50 than -0.5–0. But as a result of this, two people at the same skill level will have different ratings based on how much they play, so just the µ is a better estimate of skill. You can find out people's µ values if you look them up on the leaderboard and click them, or more easily by private messaging DomBot on Discord if you're there.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2022, 07:19:26 pm »
0

Thanks awaculus for clarifying that. Although I’m still not sure on how all that works. I just wished it was more like leveling up in a video game, where you can lose your level.  So if I’m 0.44 what’s the highest you can go and the Lowest you can go.

It is a pretty complicated system and I don't understand the details either, but the big picture is easy enough to understand. The point is to measure your skill level relative to the average player, so being able to lose points when you lose games necessarily has to be a part of it, otherwise people who play the most would have the most points even if they're not the best players.
If you go to the online client and go to the Leaderboard tab, there are a couple of buttons in the upper right. "Implementation" goes to a Shuffle IT forum post and "Glicko-2" goes to a PDF; I figure those are where you go if you want to learn more about how the system actually works.
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spineflu

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2022, 08:19:19 pm »
+2

Rats isn’t a trasher? Huh? Now your confusing me? When you play rats, you must trash a card from your hand. How is a card that trashes cards not a trasher?

rats is a remodel, not a trasher.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2022, 10:12:19 pm »
+3

It would be great if copper strategies could be competitive. It seems like Donald X. tried to make copper more valuable in the early expansions, with cards like Coppersmith, Counting House and Apothecary, but later gave up on it. That probably means that copper strategies do not work.

Fountain encourages you to keep all your starting copper and acquire 3 more (one single play of Beggar). If you do, it's worth a Dominate, or 2 Provinces and a Duchy. Or to put it another way, each of those additional coppers is worth nearly a Province, for $0, and it helps your economy (more than a Province), and all it asks is you keep your starting Copper. I think that goes to show how much you need to do to make not trashing Copper worth it
« Last Edit: June 09, 2022, 10:13:22 pm by NoMoreFun »
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2022, 10:26:12 pm »
+11

What's the best way to say this? A Dominion player who chooses not to trash and calls themselves a "Copper Strategist" is like a Chess player who chooses not to promote their pawns and calls themselves a "Pawn Strategist." They might be able to win some games, but they're missing an enormous strategic aspect of the game. You can play however you like, but the comparison is still worth noting.

For me personally, the occasional Copper game can be fun, but if not getting rid of your starting cards was a good strategy a lot of the time, the game would be a lot more boring.
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Gherald

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2022, 02:36:49 am »
+8

Rats isn’t a trasher? Huh? Now your confusing me? When you play rats, you must trash a card from your hand. How is a card that trashes cards not a trasher?
rats is a remodel, not a trasher.
not this again.. ;)

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ClouduHieh

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2022, 05:05:41 am »
+1

Wow that’s quite the debate over one card. Wether it’s a trasher or a remodel, it’s a card that trashes cards. So for now on I’ll just call it a card that trashes cards. So I just called it a trasher because the other title is a little long.
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Oyvind

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2022, 05:36:03 am »
0

Wow that’s quite the debate over one card. Wether it’s a trasher or a remodel, it’s a card that trashes cards. So for now on I’ll just call it a card that trashes cards. So I just called it a trasher because the other title is a little long.

The thing is that you trash a card AND receive a card (unless the Rats pile is empty, in which case you’re probably in a world of hurt). That’s what a remodel variant does. A trasher reduced the number of cards you «own». Rats doesn’t do that.
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silverspawn

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2022, 07:39:12 am »
0

did this thread actually exist or is the tweet just making it up? I also feel like it's pretty trivial that rats is a remodeler -- until the pile runs out, at which point it becomes a trasher.
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Awaclus

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2022, 07:57:30 am »
0

I also feel like it's pretty trivial that rats is a remodeler -- until the pile runs out, at which point it becomes a trasher.

By default, I would say that remodelers are trashers. Normal Remodel variants let you get rid of a bad card without having to gain another bad card.
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infangthief

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2022, 09:01:04 am »
0

did this thread actually exist or is the tweet just making it up? I also feel like it's pretty trivial that rats is a remodeler -- until the pile runs out, at which point it becomes a trasher.
It is hard to take it seriously when the date is about a year before Dark Ages was released.
Maybe it is referring to some other game with Rats in?
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Imrahil3

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2022, 09:08:59 am »
+1

I’ve spent a lot of time trying to clinically classify each Dominion card and there’s a ton of nuance to the word “trash” that can basically only be resolved by deciding beforehand what you want it to mean. Whatever a trasher is, Chapel definitely has to be one, right? But Bandit trashes cards, but you can’t use it on yourself. Remodel trashes cards but you still end up with the same number of cards in your deck. Trader trashes cards but you end up with more cards than before you played it! Which of these is a “trasher” and which is not?

I generally use the terms “thinner” to refer to cards that reduce your deck size and “remodeler” to refer to cards that trash cards but don’t reduce deck size. I save the word “trasher” for trashing attacks like Knights. When I’m being extra-detailed I add “trash-for-benefit” which, for the sake of usefulness, excludes remodelers, and this refers to cards like Moneylender - even though Chapel trashing four coppers out of your deck is technically a benefit.

I’d either call Rats a remodeler or a trash-for-benefit, as it just isn’t helpful enough to call it a “trasher.”

Feel free to disagree, but if anyone has a different classification I’d like to see how you navigated having four different types of cards go by the same moniker.
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anordinaryman

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2022, 09:30:05 am »
+2

did this thread actually exist or is the tweet just making it up? I also feel like it's pretty trivial that rats is a remodeler -- until the pile runs out, at which point it becomes a trasher.
It is hard to take it seriously when the date is about a year before Dark Ages was released.
Maybe it is referring to some other game with Rats in?

It’s a meme template. Here’s the original:

https://mobile.twitter.com/dril/status/107911000199671808?lang=en

That being said, the rats a remodel variant is my favorite dominion meme it’s so good.
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vidicate

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2022, 02:05:51 pm »
0

did this thread actually exist or is the tweet just making it up? I also feel like it's pretty trivial that rats is a remodeler -- until the pile runs out, at which point it becomes a trasher.
It is hard to take it seriously when the date is about a year before Dark Ages was released.
Maybe it is referring to some other game with Rats in?

It’s a meme template. Here’s the original:

https://mobile.twitter.com/dril/status/107911000199671808?lang=en

That being said, the rats a remodel variant is my favorite dominion meme it’s so good.

Thank you, @Gherald for the laugh. Not just the meme, but the people who haven’t seen it before. I was talking to my screen, “oh no. Guys, it’s not a real Tweet.”  :-[ ;D
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2022, 05:17:45 pm »
0

I think the "Wrong! Rats isn't a trasher!" attitude comes from the fact that when new players first see it they often don't realize what it's doing. If somebody on here called Remodel a trasher, I don't think people would immediately pounce with "Wrong! Remodel isn't a trasher!"
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Awaclus

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2022, 05:41:38 pm »
0

I think the "Wrong! Rats isn't a trasher!" attitude comes from the fact that when new players first see it they often don't realize what it's doing. If somebody on here called Remodel a trasher, I don't think people would immediately pounce with "Wrong! Remodel isn't a trasher!"

For me, it comes from the fact that when you want a trasher for your deck, Remodel does the job (at least partially) but Rats doesn't.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2022, 05:51:25 am »
+1

Rats isn't trash-for-benefit, either (the "benefit" is completely independent of what card you actually trash), but it's a trash-for-benefit enabler.
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