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Author Topic: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.  (Read 2510 times)

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ClouduHieh

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Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« on: June 08, 2022, 09:01:15 pm »
+3

I wanted to make this post before another one of my copper strategy cards gets replaced. Something tells me Iíll gotten gains is next on the chopping block. As everyone knows counting house was replaced and even though it was a fairly weak copper strategy especially since there werenít any other cards in that expansion that really worked well with it, it was to fun to pull off and see some jaws drop occasionally.

Now Iíll gotten gains is likely to be next. However Iíll gotten gains is one of the best copper strategies in the game, sure it gives out minus point cards, but the fact that it acts like a silver when played has been very useful. Sure since most people are trying to get rid coppers, most would probably prefer Iíll gotten gains gave you 2$ instead, but of course that would make the card a little too overpowered. At least the gaining copper is optional. And of course if you are playing with other copper strategy cards then Iíll gotten gains becomes even more useful.

Now to be perfectly honest in order for a copper strategy to be most effective there needs to be more than one card that works well with copper strategies. And that does rarely happen, which is why many people donít consider a copper strategy to be a real strategy. And that is understandable. Thatís why I consider myself the worlds only copper strategist, although if you like copper strategies donít be afraid to step up and join the copper strategy club. Until then Iíll consider myself the only one.

Now obviously coppersmith was the very first copper strategic card. And now counting house has joined it with Iíll gotten gains to probably join them next.

However it also helps if there is another card in the same expansion that works with a copper strategy and in hinterlands there is, there is a lot of synergy between stables and Iíll gotten gains. And thereís synergy with trader and Iíll gotten gains. Getting rid of Iíll gotten gains will be like ruining the web of life! Letís say if there was an endangered animal that everyone loved, and it only ate one animal. So obviously most people would also try to protect its prey too. However they completely forgot about what the prey only eats and itís prey becomes extinct, then like a chain reaction everything else also goes extinct too. Now that might be overly dramatic for the cards in dominion, but that would still break up a synergy. And distort the expansion some. Unless he replaces Iíll gotten gains with a card that still has synergy with trader and stables.

Now what do I consider a card to be considered a copper strategy? Well if you play it and it gains you coppers, letís you draw coppers you already own, if it rewards you for having coppers, if you can discard a copper for a reward then itís a copper strategy card. Hereís the cards that I consider a copper strategy and yes some of these cards can work well with other treasures too.

Apothecary
Iíll gotten gains
Stables (are you going to discard a silver for three cards probably not and a gold definitely not)
Plaza (are going to discard a silver for a coffer probably not)
Beggar (since dark ages has so many trashing effects you can really mitigate the damage beggar does while having some really early powerful turns)
Storyteller (yes you may pay a gold to draw 3 cards, but most likely you will pay coppers to draw cards)
Miser (if you can get at least 4 coppers on your mat the miser becomes really useful)
Settlers/bustling village

Landmark-
Fountain
Palace (you need copper to score points. So if you have 7 coppers 7 silvers and 7 golds your going to get 24 victory points at the end of the game just from the palace,which would give someone an advantage if they kept most of there coppers over someone who got rid of all of them.)

Project-
Silos

Removed cards
Coppersmith
Counting house

So yeah thereís not many cards out there for a co-op strategist like myself. Iím probably the only one left.


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Awaclus

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2022, 09:47:18 pm »
+10

Stables (are you going to discard a silver for three cards probably not and a gold definitely not)
You are definitely going to discard a Silver to draw three cards, and you are definitely going to discard a Gold to draw three cards. Cards are way better than dollars.

Plaza (are going to discard a silver for a coffer probably not)
But are you going to discard a Copper? Still probably not. You discard to Plaza when you have overdraw or when you would have more dollars than you can use otherwise. In the first case, it doesn't matter which Treasure you discard because you're just going to draw it back anyway. In the second case (which is not something you want to happen; Plaza just makes it less bad if it happens anyway), it does matter what Treasure you discard, but not because worse Treasures are better discard to Plaza, but because they are worse to have in your hand.

Beggar (since dark ages has so many trashing effects you can really mitigate the damage beggar does while having some really early powerful turns)
That's not a good idea, adding the Coppers to your deck early means you'll be playing your trashing less often, and playing your trashing often is super important. What you can sometimes do is the exact opposite, i.e. trash early and buy Beggar on your penultimate turn to generate more dollars on your final turn when it's too late for the Coppers to hurt you at all. You can also use it to generate more gains when you need to trash something for e.g. Spice Merchant or Mercenary (in which case you don't want it until you have already trashed all the junk you start out with), and Beggar/Guildhall and Beggar/Gardens are legitimate competitive strategies.

Storyteller (yes you may pay a gold to draw 3 cards, but most likely you will pay coppers to draw cards)
If you are playing Storytellers and Coppers, you are not actually drawing cards, you are spinning your wheels. For example, if your hand is Province + Storyteller + 3 Coppers and you play the Storyteller and the Coppers to draw four cards, and you happen to draw another Storyteller and another 3 Coppers, your hand is still Province + Storyteller + 3 Coppers and you haven't gained anything. Even if the cards are something different, you've lost four cards from your hand to draw four cards, which is exactly the same result as if you didn't have those first four cards in your deck at all in the first place.

Storytellers with Golds do actually draw cards and this is what you want to be doing with Storyteller. In fact, Storyteller has a pretty considerable anti-synergy with Copper because of how much you want to be connecting the Storytellers with Golds and Silvers and how much connecting it with Coppers instead is just a waste of time.

Palace (you need copper to score points. So if you have 7 coppers 7 silvers and 7 golds your going to get 24 victory points at the end of the game just from the palace,which would give someone an advantage if they kept most of there coppers over someone who got rid of all of them.)
You're only getting 21 VP in that case, and it takes an enormous number of Silvers and Golds. You also don't have to keep your starting Coppers, you can trash them and buy a few for free with spare +buys in the late game which is the only stage where the points make any difference.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2022, 02:21:52 am »
0

Well you have definitely have had a different experience with beggar. I have won every game with beggar as long as there is a decent trasher. And if you forget if youíre playing with rats you are constantly trashing cards with rats, the beggar gives you powerful turn and gives your rats plenty of cards to chew on. Basically any trasher with a +1 action on it works well with beggar.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2022, 02:29:47 am »
0

Stables I rarely discard a silver with it and I have never discarded a gold with it. Just because you have doesnít mean I will. And so that leaves copper. Besides if you had a copper and a silver in your hand itís not like your going to choose to discard the silver over the copper anyways. No because that would be foolish. Which proves my point stables is better off as a copper strategy. Simply because itís the better treasure to discard.

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ClouduHieh

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2022, 02:37:46 am »
0

Well of course Iím going to draw other cards. When I focus on a copper strategy I buy lots of actions and a few golds too. You seem to think that just because Iím a copper strategist that I ignore other treasures. Well thatís wrong I, I just like to keep them around if thereís a decent copper strategy in the kingdom. I have beaten by a huge amount of victory points people who went with chapel while I went with apothecary.

Copper strategy works for me a lot. If I lost all the time, I wouldnít bother with copper strategies. Maybe Iím just lucky. I all I know is I win a lot and have fun knowing I did something that most players ignore.
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kieranmillar

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2022, 02:52:34 am »
+3

If you enjoy decks filled with Coppers then more power to you, Dominion has lots of ways to have fun with it, it's why the game is so great.

However, if you want to make claims about the effectiveness of these copper strategies its important to state who your opponents are. Do you play IRL with casual players? If you play ranked online, what level are you? If your opponents are weaker, more strategies become viable because you have more leeway to get away with building a worse deck because your opponents underperform.

If these strategies can't compete at a higher level, then they are simply ineffective strategies. And its fine to build and enjoy playing weak decks, but they are weak decks. There is a reason why you might be the only so-called "copper strategist", because copper-heavy stategies tend to be weak and underperform against many other decks a lot of the time.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2022, 04:49:43 am »
+2

Stables I rarely discard a silver with it and I have never discarded a gold with it. Just because you have doesnít mean I will. And so that leaves copper. Besides if you had a copper and a silver in your hand itís not like your going to choose to discard the silver over the copper anyways. No because that would be foolish. Which proves my point stables is better off as a copper strategy. Simply because itís the better treasure to discard.
Copper is the better treasure to discard there, yes, but not because it's any better intrinsically in that role - all treasures are equal there - but because it's really bad in any other role.

(This is also, incidentally, the reason a lot of local club chess is played on weekday evenings. It's not that weekday evenings are especially well-suited to local club chess, rather that they're really bad for any other form of competitive OTB chess.)
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MrHepp

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2022, 07:32:25 am »
+2

It would be great if copper strategies could be competitive. It seems like Donald X. tried to make copper more valuable in the early expansions, with cards like Coppersmith, Counting House and Apothecary, but later gave up on it. That probably means that copper strategies do not work.
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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2022, 09:40:41 am »
+3

You should, by the way, usually be willing to discard Gold to a Stables if the average card in your deck is better than a Copper. Which it tends to be except right at the start of the game.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2022, 10:57:30 am »
0

Yeah Iím not quite sure where I was in the level system for dominion online, I pretty sure I was above the average level. However a few months ago i had to completely change my username and password, meaning I was back at the bottom. For some reason the password Iíve entered in millions of times was considered invalid, and when I tried to change my password it said my username was invalid. So I had to create a brand new one. Fortunately i was able to remember one of the friends that I played against lots of times. Now Iím just waiting till he gets on. Unfortunately sometimes heís on, but falls asleep while playing. So I find him but realize heís in match with rattington and it just sits there mid game for hours. He always talks about how sleepy he is and sometimes falls asleep while we play, despite that my win ratio against lavaÖÖ. Is still just 50%. So now Iíve got work my way back to the top.

As for in real life, I have over a dozen friends that I get together with to play board games all real good friends of mine. Dominion is one of the game we play, and one of my friends likes dominion more than me, I own almost 100 board games, so for me dominion is just a good game and I even enjoy many other games more than dominion. Still I tend to win 4 out 5 games of dominion in real life. I win so much that Iíve cooled off with dominion. Still whenever I play a copper strategy their jaws literally drop no joke, In much the same way when my friends see me climb every tower in that Zelda breath of the wild game without attacking a single enemy, even with those guardians firing at me. I also did that extra area underneath a labyrinth with all those guardians in the room and was able to get treasure chests without fighting a single guardian. And I do remember dodging dozens of attacks without getting hit once, which surprised even me. The point is I sometimes donít even try to win, and just get carried away playing cool combos I like and still win. Maybe Iím just the luckiest gamer who knows. But like I said I have won nearly every game when A copper strategy was available, both online and IRL.

Which is why Iím spending more time playing ark nova, Everdell and dale of merchants (which is another deck building game)

I also teach how to play board games. And do unboxing videos and some reviews. And I recently did the reviews for the dominion expansions I own, as well as Allies which my friend bought. Iíve got a YouTube channel. Iíve got over 130 subscribers right now. And I have over 50 videos with over 100 views and Iíve got like 10 videos with over 1,000 views and 3 videos with over 2,000 views!
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Awaclus

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2022, 12:00:21 pm »
+1

Yeah Iím not quite sure where I was in the level system for dominion online, I pretty sure I was above the average level.

Your rating stats are easy to recover, fortunately (and this is all publicly available info from DomBot). Looks like the last time you played actively on the ClouduHieh account was around June 2019, when your Ķ (estimated skill) was -0.44. Your highest ever Ķ was 0.04, as you can see from the picture.



My own stats are nothing to brag about, but here they are just for perspective. I think this might be pretty much about what you might expect from a typical f.ds poster, although a bunch of people here are substantially better players than I am. At the moment, my Ķ is 1.51.

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GendoIkari

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2022, 12:55:53 pm »
+5

If Stables and Storyteller are Copper strategy cards then so is Chapel... they're cards that help you deal with the Coppers; not cards that make you want Coppers.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2022, 01:01:29 pm »
+3

And if you forget if youíre playing with rats you are constantly trashing cards with rats, the beggar gives you powerful turn and gives your rats plenty of cards to chew on.

Rats isn't a trasher.

*Edit* and even if it were, your statement would be basically the same as saying "if Chapel is in the Kingdom, you want to be able to gain lots of Coppers so that your Chapel has something to Trash".
« Last Edit: June 09, 2022, 01:07:41 pm by GendoIkari »
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Gherald

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2022, 01:13:21 pm »
+1

Very few cards actually benefit from copies of Copper (specifically) in your non-tavern deck: Apothecary, Settlers, Fountain.  To some extent Palace though it's more a matter of aiming for a number of Gold+Silver and keeping (or later regaining) the right number of coppers to correspond.

In general as we all know the best thing to do with coppers that start or make their way into your deck is to get rid of them as soon as possible. It simply is a junk card, whose initial purpose is to afford some good or slightly-better-junk card such as Silver.

--
I did play against someone last week who used Beggar/Monastery as their engine payload.. it was not effective, but it was hilarious :D
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2022, 02:16:04 pm »
+1

Rats isnít a trasher? Huh? Now your confusing me? When you play rats, you must trash a card from your hand. How is a card that trashes cards not a trasher?
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Awaclus

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2022, 02:22:01 pm »
+3

Rats isnít a trasher? Huh? Now your confusing me? When you play rats, you must trash a card from your hand. How is a card that trashes cards not a trasher?

If you have 10 junk cards in your deck and you play Rats, after you have finished doing everything Rats does, you still have 10 junk cards in your deck.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2022, 02:22:22 pm »
+1

Your also all assuming that there is a way to trash cards in every set up. Then if there isnít a way to trash but at least one of the cards I mentioned, then the copper strategy becomes even important.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2022, 02:25:21 pm »
0

Wait you consider rats a junk card? You guys do know that rats is Donald x vaccarino s favorite card right? Do you really want to call it junk? 😂. Yeah I donít consider silver or rats junk in anyway. Honestly only ruins, shelters and minus point cards I consider junk. So with that said in my eyes rats is a trasher.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2022, 02:41:13 pm »
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Thanks awaculus for clarifying that. Although Iím still not sure on how all that works. I just wished it was more like leveling up in a video game, where you can lose your level.  So if Iím 0.44 whatís the highest you can go and the Lowest you can go.

Oh got to play 3 player with lavaÖÖ. Today. I won! I bought every action card, kept an estate only bought like 2 provinces and bought a few fairgrounds. The other 2 players each skipped a couple of the action cards, so when they couldnít afford to buy Provinces anymore they went for fairgrounds. They also didnít trash very many coppers either. I think I trashed 2 with priest. Priest and rat catcher, capital city, specialist, Corsair (Corsair kept us on our toes), haunted woods, (haunted woods was definitely making it harder to buy victory cards towards the end the game, but I didnít have too much trouble because fairgrounds was giving me 6 victory points.) blockade, walled village, fairgrounds and I canít remember the last one. Specialist was a big help they both ignored it, but then at the end the other two started buying specialist.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2022, 02:52:09 pm »
0

Probably most of the time but not always. After all one of the first times I played online I went straight for apothecary and ignored chapel, my opponent was of course trashing his coppers and about half way through the game, he couldnít understand why I wasnít trashing coppers. I told him apothecary is a copper strategy. He said if you want to lose thatís your choice. However I won! But he was nice about and said he wouldnít disrespect apothecary again. Like you said players who accept coppers as junk will usually win. However always is untrue. Thereís always a chance a copper  strategy will win. And for me winning with a copper strategy is way more fun, because itís different from what the crowd is doing. I like to play uniquely. And if I lose, oh well! I play dominion to try out different combinations and find new card synergies, for me thatís the fun of game, with that said I do my best, but in my own way.
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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2022, 03:30:55 pm »
0

If you want to talk about Apothecary being an undervalued card, that might be an interesting conversation to have. Someone might even care enough to update the 2012 article.  But the interesting conversation to be had is about Apothecary and what it makes possible, not Copper per se.
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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2022, 04:05:24 pm »
+4

I feel like you're a bit irrationally attached to this "copper strategy", both as a useful category, and as a viable strategy.  I think it would be more useful to think about broader categories of strategies that:

- Don't thin your starting deck.  For example, if the thinning isn't available, or isn't very strong, or if you only have trashers like Hermit or Moneylender that can't thin all your starting cards.
- Produce additional value from your starting deck, or mitigate its downsides.  For example, Baron makes use of those Estates; Settlers make use of those Copper.
- Deliberately gain additional junk.  For example, you might buy a bunch of Estates with Groundskeeper or Copper with Gardens.

If you particularly like things that specifically interact with Copper, okay, that's an aesthetic.  But you only mentioned like 9 kingdom cards--some of which are dubious, and 2 of which are already removed--and that's simply not very much.  If you think about it more broadly, you might find more to like.
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Chappy7

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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2022, 04:27:15 pm »
+4

Buying and using cards that interact with coppers doesn't make you a copper strategist.....it's not even a strategy.  It's just using some cards that may or may not be in the kingdom.  Do I use spice merchant? Absolutely.  Do I gain copper with count? Sometimes.  Do I think fountain is very interesting? totally.  This doesn't make me a copper strategist, it just means I'm playing dominion and using one of the 10+ cards in the kingdom.  A strategy is going to be more like general gameplay methods, such as starting to buy green later than your opponent, or winning a split of a key card.  Since you can't guarantee what is in a kingdom, copper is not a strategy.  Your whole schtick doesn't even make sense. Sometimes copper oriented cards are good.  Sometimes they are not.  Many of them are very often bad, like beggar, many of them can be super boring, like IGG, many of them can be super good, like Goons-->buying heaps of copper on your last turns.
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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2022, 04:59:55 pm »
+5

Upvoted the original post just for the sheer audacity of the "copper strategist" phrase. ClouduHieh, if that's the way you enjoy playing the game, then all the more fun to you!
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Re: Am I the only copper strategist? Probably.
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2022, 06:19:49 pm »
+4

Wait you consider rats a junk card? You guys do know that rats is Donald x vaccarino s favorite card right? Do you really want to call it junk? 😂.

Yeah. Here's some more context to it being Donald X.'s favorite card:

Rats is my favorite Dominion card. Now you know that about me. You give your kingdom a rat problem. Sure, you get rid of some garbage, but now you've got Rats, and they don't get rid of themselves. Isn't the solution worse than the problem?

The point of Rats is that it replaces your junk cards with other junk cards, specifically ones that cost $4 and give you +1 card when trashed. You'd much rather Apprentice a Rats than a Copper, for example. But if you don't have any way of getting rid of the Rats, they're literally just junk cards ó after you have trashed your 10 starting cards, every Rats you play will trash a good card, which means you have to stop playing them, which means you have 10 cards you can't play instead of the 10 cards that did at least a little bit of something. Gaining more junk cards to feed the Rats isn't a good idea either, because the Rats are handsize-decreasing cantrips.

The not-immediately-obvious thing about draw in Dominion is that +1 card is not actually drawing cards. If you have five cards in hand and one action, and you play a card with +1 card +1 action, you still have five cards in hand and one action, so unless the card also did something else, nothing changed. This is relevant to both Rats and Storyteller. In order to meaningfully draw cards, you have to end up with a larger handsize than you started with, and this doesn't happen when you play a Rats or play a Storyteller with just Copper. (Playing Coppers with Storyteller is still useful, if a bit weak for $5, because it lets you sift through the Coppers in your deck, but deliberately having Coppers so that you get to sift through them with Storyteller is not.)

Thanks awaculus for clarifying that. Although Iím still not sure on how all that works. I just wished it was more like leveling up in a video game, where you can lose your level.  So if Iím 0.44 whatís the highest you can go and the Lowest you can go.

It is a pretty complicated system and I don't understand the details either, but the big picture is easy enough to understand. The point is to measure your skill level relative to the average player, so being able to lose points when you lose games necessarily has to be a part of it, otherwise people who play the most would have the most points even if they're not the best players.

You're -0.44, not 0.44 (or were on June 1 2019 ó you're -1.63 now but that estimation could be inaccurate because you haven't played a lot of games recently). You start at 0 and you go up when you win games and down when you lose, and how much it changes by depends on what the skill difference is between you and the opponent and in which direction. I don't think there is a hard limit for how high or low you can go, but currently f_____t_ is the only player with a Ķ above 3 (theirs is 3.197) and probably the lowest Ķs are somewhat lower than -3 because it's easier to be way worse than average than it is to be way better than average.

So the Ķ is the system's best estimate for your skill level relative to the average, but it's just an estimate. Then there is also a φ which is always positive and measures how much uncertainty there is in the estimate ó it generally goes down the more you play, and increases every day if you don't ó and the system is 95% confident your skill level is somewhere between Ķ-2φ and Ķ+2φ. This is why the main rating on the site is based on Ķ-2φ, because even though you are probably better than that, it's almost sure you're at least that good. And the Ķ-2φ value is multiplied by 7.5 and then 50 is added to it to make it a bigger number, which makes it nicer to look at, which is why the average displayed rating is probably more like 45Ė50 than -0.5Ė0. But as a result of this, two people at the same skill level will have different ratings based on how much they play, so just the Ķ is a better estimate of skill. You can find out people's Ķ values if you look them up on the leaderboard and click them, or more easily by private messaging DomBot on Discord if you're there.
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