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Author Topic: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"  (Read 7129 times)

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dbclick

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Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« on: June 04, 2022, 01:34:44 pm »
+15

The rule book for Seaside Second Edition dropped and the recommended sets show new Hinterlands cards:

https://www.riograndegames.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Seaside2nd.pdf

The new cards known as of now are named as follows:

  • Cauldron
  • Berserker
  • Guard Dog
  • Nomads
  • Souk
  • Wheelwright

AFAIK, we don't have any details yet as to what these do or what cards they replace.

Assuming the 9 cards allowable for replacements in Update packs, then there are only up to 3 other cards that we don't know about up to this point. Obviously we don't know when these drop, but I would assume soon since the set is likely finalized.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2022, 02:27:08 pm »
+9

I suppose that also means that we have a good idea of some cards that are not leaving: Cartographer, Crossroads, Farmland, and Stables.
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Donald X.

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2022, 02:34:18 pm »
+33

Hinterlands 2E will follow a few weeks or so after Prosperity 2E. I don't have a more precise expectation yet. It will have 9 new cards and an update pack with them, like Seaside and Prosperity.

It seemed fun to let some people find out from the Seaside 2E rulebook.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2022, 05:21:48 am »
0

Hinterlands 2E will follow a few weeks or so after Prosperity 2E. I don't have a more precise expectation yet. It will have 9 new cards and an update pack with them, like Seaside and Prosperity.

It seemed fun to let some people find out from the Seaside 2E rulebook.

Do you have plans for when Hinterlands 2E will be previewed yet?
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Holger

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2022, 06:31:04 am »
+2

9 new cards will likely mean that 9 existing cards will be removed, as Hinterlands 1E only has 8 blanks.

In principle two VP cards could be replaced by Actions/Treasures to make room for a 27th card. But with Farmland staying this seems very unlikely - I don't expect Tunnel and Silk Road to both leave.
Or Cache could become an Event, but that would mean "retroactively" introducing an extra mechanics just for one "card".
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2022, 06:35:43 am »
0

I'm also curious to what the fate of Haggler will be when its set will be revisited. That card has while-in-play effect that really shouldn't be throneable (though I also believed that with Merchant Guild). I kinda suspect that this card will get a stronger on-play effect, but only gains one extra card per play.

Also, when is Highway getting the throneable glory it deserves?

It seems that this mystery is going to be solved soon :p
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2022, 06:51:42 am »
+1

I suppose there is the option of bringing in eight Events, one of them a reskinning of Cache. Not very likely, I'll admit, but possible.
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2022, 08:14:07 am »
+2

Alright, so let's predict the 9 drops, from most likely to least likely. It went pretty well for Prosperity, so lemme try this again.

1. Cache: Very weak and very outdated by design. If the community really cannot live without this card, I'm pretty sure there will be an Event that says "Gain a Gold and 2 Coppers."
2. Duchess: The concept of making Duchies come with a bonus is neat and all, but I'm pretty sure there are better ways to accomplish this than with a terminal Silver whose extra effect is more beneficial to you than your opponent.
3. Noble Brigand: It is horribly weak; even worse than Navigator according to the last Qvist rankings. The fact that it only steals Gold or Silver was originally meant to ensure it's not 100% better than Thief, but nowadays makes the card just look stupid. And if this card would stay, it'd probably need errata. As the errata-free rewording it got is quite ambiguous.
4. Mandarin: This card has the most shenanigan-heavy on-gain effect ever, and is unlikely to ever be beaten in this regard. This doesn't mean much, however, as its in-game usage is almost as narrow as Counting House. Being a terminal Gold with a mostly-detrimental onplay-effect makes it look rather sucky comparing to stuff like Treasurer, and the on-gain effect is no enough to make up for that.
5. Ill-gotten gains: This is not a poorly designed card by any means, but it is still quite obvious that it's an unwanted stepchild of the designing team. You either ignore this card, or ignore the rest of the kingdom. Which is undesired, even when it is usually not overly obvious which strategy is the best choice. (It is also considered to be too complicated, to which I disagree)
6. Margrave: This card pretty obnoxious, and is kinda in the same boat as the outtake-Attacks from Seaside and Prosperity. It is pretty annoying when your opponent has a 5/2 opening and is continuously able to attack you (thanks to the fast cycling this card provides). It also undeservingly gives +Buy, and Seaside 2E kinda prove that this is not the stuff that is going to be errata'd out.
7. Trader: Probably a textbook case of cool on paper but poor in practice. It is almost always outclassed as a trasher and against junking Attacks, hand-reactions aren't so great in general. In the end, it exclusively stands out as a Silver gainer, to which it compares pretty unfavorably to Groom.
8. Oracle: This card is underpowered and brings very little to the table that other sources of draw don't. The attacking part makes it slow to resolve, too. Didn't Donald X say that he hates this card?
9. Haggler: The development team has assigned themselves the mission to phase out the use of "while in play" and "when you buy". Among the cards that still exist, Haggler is the biggest roadblock by far - its effect shouldn't be Throneable and it obviously must be restricted to buying. My hypothesis is that this will be replaced by a variant that is restricted to a singular gain per play.

My predictions on the errata are:
Highway: Cost reduction is part of the on-play effect of the card.
Farmlands: Only the first Farmland you gain in a turn gets the Remodel effect.
Fool's Gold: Looses the Reaction part.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2022, 08:33:43 am »
+1

Alright, so let's predict the 9 drops, from most likely to least likely. It went pretty well for Prosperity, so lemme try this again.

1. Cache: Very weak and very outdated by design. If the community really cannot live without this card, I'm pretty sure there will be an Event that says "Gain a Gold and 2 Coppers."
2. Duchess: The concept of making Duchies come with a bonus is neat and all, but I'm pretty sure there are better ways to accomplish this than with a terminal Silver whose extra effect is more beneficial to you than your opponent.
3. Noble Brigand: It is horribly weak; even worse than Navigator according to the last Qvist rankings. The fact that it only steals Gold or Silver was originally meant to ensure it's not 100% better than Thief, but nowadays makes the card just look stupid. And if this card would stay, it'd probably need errata. As the errata-free rewording it got is quite ambiguous.
4. Mandarin: This card has the most shenanigan-heavy on-gain effect ever, and is unlikely to ever be beaten in this regard. This doesn't mean much, however, as its in-game usage is almost as narrow as Counting House. Being a terminal Gold with a mostly-detrimental onplay-effect makes it look rather sucky comparing to stuff like Treasurer, and the on-gain effect is no enough to make up for that.
5. Ill-gotten gains: This is not a poorly designed card by any means, but it is still quite obvious that it's an unwanted stepchild of the designing team. You either ignore this card, or ignore the rest of the kingdom. Which is undesired, even when it is usually not overly obvious which strategy is the best choice. (It is also considered to be too complicated, to which I disagree)
6. Margrave: This card pretty obnoxious, and is kinda in the same boat as the outtake-Attacks from Seaside and Prosperity. It is pretty annoying when your opponent has a 5/2 opening and is continuously able to attack you (thanks to the fast cycling this card provides). It also undeservingly gives +Buy, and Seaside 2E kinda prove that this is not the stuff that is going to be errata'd out.
7. Trader: Probably a textbook case of cool on paper but poor in practice. It is almost always outclassed as a trasher and against junking Attacks, hand-reactions aren't so great in general. In the end, it exclusively stands out as a Silver gainer, to which it compares pretty unfavorably to Groom.
8. Oracle: This card is underpowered and brings very little to the table that other sources of draw don't. The attacking part makes it slow to resolve, too. Didn't Donald X say that he hates this card?
9. Haggler: The development team has assigned themselves the mission to phase out the use of "while in play" and "when you buy". Among the cards that still exist, Haggler is the biggest roadblock by far - its effect shouldn't be Throneable and it obviously must be restricted to buying. My hypothesis is that this will be replaced by a variant that is restricted to a singular gain per play.

My predictions on the errata are:
Highway: Cost reduction is part of the on-play effect of the card.
Farmlands: Only the first Farmland you gain in a turn gets the Remodel effect.
Fool's Gold: Looses the Reaction part.

I agree with all of these except haggler; i think the 9th card to get swapped out will be Nomad Camp, on the same criteria as Woodcutter.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2022, 09:21:03 am »
+2

I'd pick Develop and Nomad Camp as the goners instead of Haggler and Trader. Develop is a really niche card that I think is out for the same reasons as Counting House. Nomad Camp isn't that bad but isn't really worth a slot, and I think a better card could explore the way that card affects the early and late game.

Haggler can get a "This turn" wording and either the "if you bought it" wording from Hoard, or it gains you cards at the end of your buy phase based on cards you gained during it (like the new Merchant Guild). The latter is harder to track but not too hard. Even "once this turn" would be a fun enough card. Farmland being "the first time you gain" is fine.

Trader is one of my favourite cards so wishful thinking
that it stays more than anything. I like how it turns the tables on junkers and self junkers.

Hinterlands would really suit "introducing" Events (as the set focusing on "things happening immediately when you buy") and 8 blanks seems like too many, so I hope it has a set of events, though 9 new cards makes it a bit awkward to do that (update pack would need to be 107 cards)

Hoping for a lot more when gain effects as there were surprisingly few in original Hinterlands and several are on bad cards.
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Imrahil3

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2022, 09:47:40 am »
+2

Again with the hot takes! Trader is a great card that just so happens to not be Chapel. Itís not a thinner, itís a Silver gainer.

My worthless hot take is that Hinterlands doesnít need any brand new cards. It needs a few mild rebalancing for sure (I.e. Cache needs +1 Buy and probably cost 1 less). A major theme of Hinterlands was dealing with bulky, large decks, so kicking out cards because they donít promote thin engines is a non-starter for me.
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2022, 11:22:11 am »
+2

I'd pick Develop and Nomad Camp as the goners instead of Haggler and Trader. Develop is a really niche card that I think is out for the same reasons as Counting House. Nomad Camp isn't that bad but isn't really worth a slot, and I think a better card could explore the way that card affects the early and late game.

Yeah, these two make sense as well.

Quote
Haggler can get a "This turn" wording and either the "if you bought it" wording from Hoard, or it gains you cards at the end of your buy phase based on cards you gained during it (like the new Merchant Guild). The latter is harder to track but not too hard. Even "once this turn" would be a fun enough card. Farmland being "the first time you gain" is fine.

You're right, but just imagine the wording nightmare this is going to be:
Quote
Haggler ($5, Action)
+$2
If this is the first time you played Haggler this turn, then, when you gain a card this turn, if you bought it, gain a cheaper non-Victory card.
Ok, it's maybe not that bad
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2022, 11:27:17 am »
+4

Develop is amazeballs. Trader is cool. Very much a silver gainer not a trasher as Imrahil3 said. Would bet against either card disappearing.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2022, 12:06:59 pm »
+4

Would bet against either card disappearing.

At what odds?

Trader is a cool card, but it is not great to introduce exchange in Hinterlands just for one card, it's not strong enough to be worth buying most of the time, Donald X. has mentioned before that he would simplify Trader if he had a time machine (which seems like a horrifyingly irresponsible use for a time machine, but I digress), and the base probability of any given card leaving is about 35% if they're randomly chosen. Plus we know we're getting a card called Guard Dog which is probably a Reaction because dogs are blue. I wouldn't say I think it's likely to get replaced, but I would give it maybe a 10-15% chance, and with the (which I think is lower but still non-zero) chance of Develop getting replaced on top of that, I might take you up on that bet depending on the odds.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2022, 12:21:47 pm »
0

Not betting against that, I don't think I'm more confident than you. 10-15% sounds right.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2022, 01:30:03 pm »
+1

Would bet against either card disappearing.

At what odds?

Trader is a cool card, but it is not great to introduce exchange in Hinterlands just for one card, it's not strong enough to be worth buying most of the time, Donald X. has mentioned before that he would simplify Trader if he had a time machine (which seems like a horrifyingly irresponsible use for a time machine, but I digress), and the base probability of any given card leaving is about 35% if they're randomly chosen. Plus we know we're getting a card called Guard Dog which is probably a Reaction because dogs are blue. I wouldn't say I think it's likely to get replaced, but I would give it maybe a 10-15% chance, and with the (which I think is lower but still non-zero) chance of Develop getting replaced on top of that, I might take you up on that bet depending on the odds.

On the other hand, maybe some of the replacement cards also use exchange and it becomes the "introduce exchange" expansion, since when-buy is getting phased out for when-gain. For example, I could see a replacement IGG that lets opponents also exchange curses for coppers, to be less stifling.
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Donald X.

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2022, 01:57:40 pm »
+6

Do you have plans for when Hinterlands 2E will be previewed yet?
No date yet, but I'll let people know ahead of time this time.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2022, 04:50:16 pm »
+9

Trader getting swapped out for a blue dog would be very appropriate.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2022, 05:02:17 pm »
+1

I can think of eight cards at most that would be suitable candidates for removal but apparently at least one of them (Farmland) is staying, so I tried to categorise them into tiers depending on how "safe" the existing cards were. I wonder if only eight cards are being removed as although there are already 26 cards in the set, it includes some blank cards, and I recall hearing something about 27 cards in new sets.

Probably going: Mandarin, Duchess, Cache, Noble Brigand, Farmland. Some of these have some interesting effects but are generally considered weak, and Noble Brigand is a bit tedious.

Likely removal: Develop, Ill-Gotten Gains, Silk Road. I'm particularly unsure about Silk Road leaving as no other card gives you points for Victory cards but as a certain number are being removed...

Uncertain: Oracle, Nomad Camp, Inn. I would have expected them to stay but it looks like even if those above are all going, at least one more would need to be removed. Oracle is a bit tedious and the other two have interesting/unique effects even if they aren't that strong.

Probably safe: Margrave, Tunnel, Trader, Cartographer. I do find Margrave an annoying attack but it offers quite a lot and enough similar attacks (Goons, Ghost Ship) have already been removed recently. I've always liked Trader, the additional reaction is an added benefit and Tunnel has a nice reaction too.

Safe: Border Village, Haggler, Crossroads, Scheme, Fool's Gold, Stables, Spice Merchant, Oasis, Jack, Embassy, Highway. I'd be stunned if any of these are removed.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2022, 05:06:14 pm by CaptainTheo »
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2022, 06:11:37 pm »
+2

The 7 obvious ones are Mandarin, Duchess, Cache, Noble Brigand, IGG, Oracle, Nomad Camp.  Oracle is only bad because it's slow to resolve, some other draw replacement will be better.

Hard to guess what the other two of 9 might be, nothing else in the set has clear issues.  I suppose Develop is too weak if you look at it as just a trasher, but it's more of a weird gainer like Dismantle.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2022, 07:12:47 pm »
+1

I think Spice Merchant is secretly one of the least interesting cards ever printed since you just get it on T1/2 every time. I still don't expect it to go, but I do think there is a strong case, theoretically.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2022, 08:25:59 pm »
+5

I think Spice Merchant is secretly one of the least interesting cards ever printed since you just get it on T1/2 every time. I still don't expect it to go, but I do think there is a strong case, theoretically.

I don't think that makes it inherently uninteresting. You always get Cursed Gold on T0 every time, but the fact that it's there and changes how the game plays out makes it interesting. Spice Merchant makes it a lot easier to build an engine, and it creates some remarkably interesting decisions sometimes when it's the only +buy.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2022, 10:17:28 pm »
0

What on earth is the argument for getting rid of Develop?
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2022, 10:42:03 pm »
+1

What on earth is the argument for getting rid of Develop?

It's usually weak, that's reason enough for some people. I don't think it's reason enough for Donald, though.

I think Cartographer should go. It's never good or interesting. Night Watchman is what this card wanted to be.

I'm surprised to see some semi-defense of Nomad Camp here. I think it would be worse than Woodcutter even if it cost the same, because it's something you pretty much never want on top of your deck.

I actually think IGG is worth keeping. Games where the rush is good are games that weren't going to be interesting anyway. If the rush isn't good, it can still be worth getting if your deck has become stuffed with green or you can remodel it.

I wouldn't be surprised if Donald said he hated Oracle, for the same reason he hated Spy. It's weak and slow to resolve.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2022, 11:04:22 pm »
+3

I wonder how far these second editions will go? Will Dark Ages get one? It'd be nice to finally see Rebuild and Cultist go, but I'm not sure there are enough other cards to be replaced. Adventures? I hope not, I'd hate to see Miser replaced. Or is Hinterlands it?

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2022, 12:16:09 am »
0

Alright, so let's predict the 9 drops, from most likely to least likely. It went pretty well for Prosperity, so lemme try this again.

1. Cache: Very weak and very outdated by design. If the community really cannot live without this card, I'm pretty sure there will be an Event that says "Gain a Gold and 2 Coppers."
2. Duchess: The concept of making Duchies come with a bonus is neat and all, but I'm pretty sure there are better ways to accomplish this than with a terminal Silver whose extra effect is more beneficial to you than your opponent.
3. Noble Brigand: It is horribly weak; even worse than Navigator according to the last Qvist rankings. The fact that it only steals Gold or Silver was originally meant to ensure it's not 100% better than Thief, but nowadays makes the card just look stupid. And if this card would stay, it'd probably need errata. As the errata-free rewording it got is quite ambiguous.
4. Mandarin: This card has the most shenanigan-heavy on-gain effect ever, and is unlikely to ever be beaten in this regard. This doesn't mean much, however, as its in-game usage is almost as narrow as Counting House. Being a terminal Gold with a mostly-detrimental onplay-effect makes it look rather sucky comparing to stuff like Treasurer, and the on-gain effect is no enough to make up for that.
5. Ill-gotten gains: This is not a poorly designed card by any means, but it is still quite obvious that it's an unwanted stepchild of the designing team. You either ignore this card, or ignore the rest of the kingdom. Which is undesired, even when it is usually not overly obvious which strategy is the best choice. (It is also considered to be too complicated, to which I disagree)
6. Margrave: This card pretty obnoxious, and is kinda in the same boat as the outtake-Attacks from Seaside and Prosperity. It is pretty annoying when your opponent has a 5/2 opening and is continuously able to attack you (thanks to the fast cycling this card provides). It also undeservingly gives +Buy, and Seaside 2E kinda prove that this is not the stuff that is going to be errata'd out.
7. Trader: Probably a textbook case of cool on paper but poor in practice. It is almost always outclassed as a trasher and against junking Attacks, hand-reactions aren't so great in general. In the end, it exclusively stands out as a Silver gainer, to which it compares pretty unfavorably to Groom.
8. Oracle: This card is underpowered and brings very little to the table that other sources of draw don't. The attacking part makes it slow to resolve, too. Didn't Donald X say that he hates this card?
9. Haggler: The development team has assigned themselves the mission to phase out the use of "while in play" and "when you buy". Among the cards that still exist, Haggler is the biggest roadblock by far - its effect shouldn't be Throneable and it obviously must be restricted to buying. My hypothesis is that this will be replaced by a variant that is restricted to a singular gain per play.

My predictions on the errata are:
Highway: Cost reduction is part of the on-play effect of the card.
Farmlands: Only the first Farmland you gain in a turn gets the Remodel effect.
Fool's Gold: Looses the Reaction part.

I'd really prefer Highway not to have the cost-reduction be on-play, but given that while-in-play is unfortunately being phased out, I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case

I'm curious why you think Fool's Gold will lose the reaction
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Gherald

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2022, 12:25:56 am »
+5

I wonder how far these second editions will go?
Alchemy will become a full-sized set
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2022, 06:43:58 am »
0

You're right, but just imagine the wording nightmare this is going to be:
Quote
Haggler ($5, Action)
+$2
If this is the first time you played Haggler this turn, then, when you gain a card this turn, if you bought it, gain a cheaper non-Victory card.
Ok, it's maybe not that bad

I was thinking something like

Quote
Haggler
Action - $5
+$2
This turn, when you gain a card, if you bought it, gain a cheaper non-Victory card.

Or for something crazier,
Quote
Haggler
Action - $5
+$2
At the end of your Buy phase this turn, for each card you gained during it, gain a cheaper non-Victory card.

Or for something more toned down but still interesting,
Quote
Haggler
Action - $5
+$2
Once this turn, when you gain a card, you may gain a cheaper non-Victory card.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2022, 07:10:35 am »
0

On the other hand, maybe some of the replacement cards also use exchange and it becomes the "introduce exchange" expansion, since when-buy is getting phased out for when-gain. For example, I could see a replacement IGG that lets opponents also exchange curses for coppers, to be less stifling.

Exchange goes nicely with "when gain" as it allows you to receive the when gain effect without actually gaining the card (and vice versa, though that's less fun). Sometimes you'd prefer a Silver and a $5 to a Border Village and a $5. Maybe a new card could lean into this.

If Trader is lonely, Fool's Gold's reaction could be changed to an exchange effect.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2022, 07:34:04 am »
+1

What on earth is the argument for getting rid of Develop?

It's very situational (like Counting House). "Top deck a $3" isn't too bad for an early game Estate trashing effect. But it's not fun to trash a $3 to gain a $4 onto your deck... and an Estate. Sometimes there isn't even a $4 in the kingdom, let alone a $7. A card that really feels like it "doesn't work properly" and I think would get some buyer's remorse (like Counting House)

When it works well it feels awesome, and I'm sure it will be more missed than Thief and Scout. But I'm sure a simpler card could capture that fun. Armory is a better topdeck gainer (better=I like the design more). Replace is a better topdeck Remodel. Procession is more fun at making use of card cost sequences in the kingdom. Dismantle is a less janky card that involves trashing a card for something cheaper and something (likely) better.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2022, 08:22:24 am »
+2

I think Cartographer should go. It's never good or interesting. Night Watchman is what this card wanted to be.
Is Night Watchman ever good or interesting?
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2022, 09:08:01 am »
+3

I think Cartographer should go. It's never good or interesting. Night Watchman is what this card wanted to be.
Is Night Watchman ever good or interesting?

It is interesting when you realize that it guarantees $5 on turn 3/4. It's not that interesting after you're done realizing that.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2022, 09:23:39 am »
+6

Cartographer is good and I would say interesting with conditional draw such as Wishing Well, Vagrant, Will-o-Wisp, etc. I do, however, have bad memories of trying to teach people the game and putting Cartographer, a seemingly innocent card, and the kingdom. They would play it and just sit there staring at their 4 cards for a few minutes, then do it all over again.

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2022, 11:13:13 am »
+1

cartographer's good for getting performance out of otherwise sloggy decks. The trick is you gotta have a couple of them.
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trivialknot

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2022, 12:22:10 pm »
+2

DXV on Hinterlands in 2012:

Quote
Odds are I wasn't going to be so unhappy with this one either, given how recent it is. The one thing I can say is, I thought the set was simpler than people think it is, and I would be strongly tempted to simplify it a little given that I know people think it's complex. Basically make it a little more like the standalone it didn't end up being. To that end the obv. changes are to drop the reactions from Fool's Gold and Trader, to drop the above-line text on Duchess (just leave it +$2), and make a version of IGG that just has $1 or $2 on the top. Possibly either Inn or Mandarin could change, I like them both as-is but they would be some of the wordiest cards left at that point. Noble Brigand is wordy but it needs those words. Probably all of these changes sound awful to you, dear reader, but that's the way of the world. It's hard to see the value in the simplicity I'd gain, but there really is value there. Anyway I went with the more complex versions and it's not so bad that I did.

Well, that commentary seems fairly out of date.  And here's from 2020:

Quote
Hinterlands: The problem here is that mostly I want to tweak cards but keep them, which results in an update pack we can't really sell. So e.g.: move +Buy from Margrave to Cache; drop the Reactions from Fool's Gold and Trader; make Ill-Gotten Gains a $6 that makes $2 and Curses on-gain. There are still cards to replace too though: Noble Brigand (weak), Mandarin (weak, rare weird issues), Oracle (so slow).

And here's the 2021 Thunderminion rankings from best to worst:

Quote
Margrave
Border Village
Highway
Spice Merchant
Stables
Haggler
Inn
Scheme
Jack of All Trades
Crossroads
Fool's Gold
Ill-Gotten Gains
Develop
Oracle
Tunnel
Embassy
Oasis
Farmland
Cartographer
Nomad Camp
Trader
Silk Road
Duchess
Noble Brigand
Mandarin
Cache
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trivialknot

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2022, 12:29:23 pm »
0

The Seaside 2E rulebook seems to confirm Farmland, Crossroads, Stables, Cartographer.  So if 9 will be removed, I'm going to guess they're from among:

The bottom 7 ranked cards (by the Thunderminion list above)
Oracle (very slow to play with)
Embassy (dominant and monolithic in multiplayer)
Ill Gotten Gains (DXV could probably make a better version today)
Margrave (I guess if we're killing powerful attacks?)

Personally, I don't hate any of these cards, but some of them I'd love to see better versions of them.  I like the ideas of IGG, Silk Road, Trader, Duchess, Mandarin, Cache, but they don't see much play.  It was pointed out on Discord that a new victory card seems unlikely because that would kick the update pack from 99 to 101 cards.  If so, that's a bit disappointing to me.
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urza

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2022, 12:32:10 pm »
+9

For what it's worth, I think we have pretty strong evidence that Nomad Camp is out: one of the new cards is called Nomads.  Not only would that be kind of confusing, but there's a precedent with Seaside: Pirate Ship was taken out, and we got a card that was just called Pirate.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2022, 07:41:17 pm »
0

I think Cartographer should go. It's never good or interesting. Night Watchman is what this card wanted to be.
Is Night Watchman ever good or interesting?

It is interesting when you realize that it guarantees $5 on turn 3/4. It's not that interesting after you're done realizing that.

And when you realize you can use it to top deck cards you just bought. And when you realize you can play it right after you buy it. And when you realize it's not competing with $5 cards like Cartographer is.
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Oyvind

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2022, 02:27:18 am »
0

I think these nine are leaving:
- Cache
- Foolís Gold
- Ill-gotten Gains
- Mandarin
- Margrave
- Noble Brigand
- Nomad Camp
- Oracle
- Trader

But to be honest with you, I hope both Silk Road and Tunnel are among the cuts. This way they can remove eight kingdom cards and add nine. 92 physical cards would then be removed and 99 will be added, meaning both the new set and the update pack would have only one blank card each.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2022, 05:09:24 pm »
0

I wonder how far these second editions will go? Will Dark Ages get one? It'd be nice to finally see Rebuild and Cultist go, but I'm not sure there are enough other cards to be replaced. Adventures? I hope not, I'd hate to see Miser replaced. Or is Hinterlands it?

I assume that Dark Ages 2E is ready and waiting to be announced.  In past musing about second editions, DXV has listed a number of things that he would like to see changed.  So I am sure that it will be part of this binge of releases. Beyond that:
  • Alchemy 2E:  No way.  DXV has made remarks like "Ideally, Alchemy would be allowed to go out of print".  He will not touch it.
  • Cornucopia & Guilds: Maybe, but it is not a given that there is enough wrong with them to justify an update.  Also, Guilds is a more recent release and that may argue against doing an update at this time.
  • Everything else is recent enough that doing an update probably is not a good idea.  Those sets have also benefited from the lessons learned for the past sets, but lessons have now been learned from the newer mechanics that these sets have.
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CaptainTheo

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2022, 05:34:58 pm »
+1

I'm wondering why Dark Ages needs a second edition. That feels like a solid set with almost no duds. I'm struggling to think of a single card in the set that feels like it needs replacing actually, despite it being a very large set.

Cornucopia feels like a very solid set with the only card that could be potentially considered a dud being Fortune Teller.

The only one in Guilds I can think of that is considered particularly weak is Taxman and I like the art on that card.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2022, 05:53:48 pm »
0

I'm wondering why Dark Ages needs a second edition. That feels like a solid set with almost no duds. I'm struggling to think of a single card in the set that feels like it needs replacing actually, despite it being a very large set.
Rebuild is pretty much guaranteed to go away if there is a 2E.

Quote
Cornucopia feels like a very solid set with the only card that could be potentially considered a dud being Fortune Teller.
A Cornucopia 2E could, potentially, just add cards, turning it from a small set into a normal-sized set. (If that happened, it would presumably have to be done at the same time as something similar happening to Guilds.) I'll bet some Prizes would be replaced, though.
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Oyvind

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2022, 06:01:27 pm »
+1

I'm wondering why Dark Ages needs a second edition. That feels like a solid set with almost no duds. I'm struggling to think of a single card in the set that feels like it needs replacing actually, despite it being a very large set.

I can see these cards leaving, as DXV has actually called them out as design mistakes, could be improved upon or bad-to-print cards:

- Band of Misfits
- Cultist
- Procession
- Rebuild
- Sage
- Storeroom
- Urchin

In addition, do we really need Beggar and Pillage? Will you really miss these cards? Thatís nine cards in total, just saying.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2022, 06:25:33 pm »
+5

- Procession

You can take my Processions over my dead Fortresses. ;D
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2022, 08:45:07 pm »
+2

I don't think Ruins add that much to the game considering how much space they take up. "Slightly less bad Curse" isn't that interesting and Charlatan opens up better ways to do that. Death Cart is a very clever design so if Ruins stay I hope there are more cards that interestingly draw on the fact that Ruins are Actions - but I wouldn't miss it that much.

Shelters are nice but they don't really impact the game that much unless Necropolis is the only village, or there's a Way.

With both of them, there's space taken up to account for 5 and 6 player games. Is it worth it?

Losing those 2 frees up 68 cards of space - 6 new cards.

In general I'd like to see non supply cards be more general (like Spoils or Horses) and less an extension of one card (like Mercenary).

500 card Dark Ages seems to add less to the game than 400 Card Menagerie, and even 300 Card Renaissance and Empires. Dark Ages is an advanced enough expansion in terms of rules to handle Landscapes.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2022, 09:08:28 pm »
+2

Cornucopia definitely has duds (Harvest), overpowered cards (Hunting Party), and irritatingly swingy cards (Tournament - though I'd miss the "Prize" concept).

Guilds is fine. Masterpiece is weak and could be an Event but it's fine. I actually like Taxman. I just wish there was more of its core mechanics (Overpay and Coffers), especially more "fee for service" cards like Butcher, one of my favourite designs. Overpay may be awkward with phasing out "When you buy", but "When you gain, you may pay $ to..." would make Herald much more fun.

The 2 sets could be formally combined, which is an opportunity for Harvest to be replaced with a card that uses Coffers (though update packs may preclude that), or Overpay.
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Imrahil3

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2022, 09:50:54 pm »
0

There are a lot of cards that interact with Ruins in interesting ways. Most of them serve simply to nerf Looter cards (Way of the Pig, Way of the Horse, Swap), but theyíre also way more interesting than Curses with cards that care about what type a card is (Courtier, Transmute).

I agree that Dark Ages in general doesnít need a 2E.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2022, 10:01:56 pm »
+1

I'm wondering why Dark Ages needs a second edition. That feels like a solid set with almost no duds. I'm struggling to think of a single card in the set that feels like it needs replacing actually, despite it being a very large set.
I agree that the set is very solid but there are two outliers: Rebuild and Cultist are ridiculously overpowered.

Urchin is also OP - a very stupid and unfun card, if you ask me. And does anyone actually like the Knights?
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #48 on: June 08, 2022, 02:32:03 am »
+2

I'm wondering why Dark Ages needs a second edition. That feels like a solid set with almost no duds. I'm struggling to think of a single card in the set that feels like it needs replacing actually, despite it being a very large set.
I agree that the set is very solid but there are two outliers: Rebuild and Cultist are ridiculously overpowered.

Urchin is also OP - a very stupid and unfun card, if you ask me. And does anyone actually like the Knights?

If Rogue came out in a different set, I'd assume it was a "fixed" Knights.

But the pile named after Donald's family and friends is unlikely to be cut out.
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ehunt

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #49 on: June 08, 2022, 09:01:05 am »
+2

I'm wondering why Dark Ages needs a second edition. That feels like a solid set with almost no duds. I'm struggling to think of a single card in the set that feels like it needs replacing actually, despite it being a very large set.
I agree that the set is very solid but there are two outliers: Rebuild and Cultist are ridiculously overpowered.

Urchin is also OP - a very stupid and unfun card, if you ask me. And does anyone actually like the Knights?

knights are great!

re: cornucopia i think tournament could use a nerfing
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Cuzz

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #50 on: June 08, 2022, 09:07:26 am »
+3

I'm wondering why Dark Ages needs a second edition. That feels like a solid set with almost no duds. I'm struggling to think of a single card in the set that feels like it needs replacing actually, despite it being a very large set.
I agree that the set is very solid but there are two outliers: Rebuild and Cultist are ridiculously overpowered.

Urchin is also OP - a very stupid and unfun card, if you ask me. And does anyone actually like the Knights?

knights are great!

re: cornucopia i think tournament could use a nerfing

Re: Knights, I think this discussion is devolving into a kind of self-parody in which practically every card is deemed obviously problematic and worthy of removal.
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Imrahil3

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #51 on: June 08, 2022, 10:13:22 am »
+3

I'm wondering why Dark Ages needs a second edition. That feels like a solid set with almost no duds. I'm struggling to think of a single card in the set that feels like it needs replacing actually, despite it being a very large set.
I agree that the set is very solid but there are two outliers: Rebuild and Cultist are ridiculously overpowered.

Urchin is also OP - a very stupid and unfun card, if you ask me. And does anyone actually like the Knights?

knights are great!

re: cornucopia i think tournament could use a nerfing

Re: Knights, I think this discussion is devolving into a kind of self-parody in which practically every card is deemed obviously problematic and worthy of removal.

Yeah. If we accumulated all of the logic and reasoning in all these posts as to why any given card is bad for the game and applied it equally across every expansion, I think weíd be left with Workshop and possibly Market. No way that cards like Chapel or Recruiter survive the purge.
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Holger

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #52 on: June 08, 2022, 12:30:24 pm »
+6

I wonder how far these second editions will go? Will Dark Ages get one? It'd be nice to finally see Rebuild and Cultist go, but I'm not sure there are enough other cards to be replaced. Adventures? I hope not, I'd hate to see Miser replaced. Or is Hinterlands it?

I assume that Dark Ages 2E is ready and waiting to be announced.  In past musing about second editions, DXV has listed a number of things that he would like to see changed.  So I am sure that it will be part of this binge of releases. Beyond that:
[...]

I don't think so, since the recommended Seaside 2E/Dark Ages kingdoms in the rulebook only contain 10 existing DA cards. If DA 2E was about to be released, chances are that the recommended kingdoms would include some replaced DA cards, like they do for Base, Intrigue, Prosperity and Hinterlands. (I suppose Donald could intentionally have only used remaining DA cards in order to not spoil a DA 2E. But as I understand his post in this thread, he intentionally included lots of Hinterlands 2E cards in the rulebook as a "hidden" spoiler for careful readers to discover.  :D)

Also, Donald X. is only human - I wouldn't expect him to have two full expansions and three 2nd editions ready to publish in just one year. ;)
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vidicate

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #53 on: June 08, 2022, 04:02:18 pm »
+2

I don't think Ruins add that much to the game considering how much space they take up. "Slightly less bad Curse" isn't that interesting and Charlatan opens up better ways to do that. Death Cart is a very clever design so if Ruins stay I hope there are more cards that interestingly draw on the fact that Ruins are Actions - but I wouldn't miss it that much.

Shelters are nice but they don't really impact the game that much unless Necropolis is the only village, or there's a Way.

With both of them, there's space taken up to account for 5 and 6 player games. Is it worth it?

Losing those 2 frees up 68 cards of space - 6 new cards.

In general I'd like to see non supply cards be more general (like Spoils or Horses) and less an extension of one card (like Mercenary).

500 card Dark Ages seems to add less to the game than 400 Card Menagerie, and even 300 Card Renaissance and Empires. Dark Ages is an advanced enough expansion in terms of rules to handle Landscapes.

Nice. You have successfully gutted everything I enjoy about DA in one stroke ;D
Agreed with that last paragraph, though.

Fun fact about Charlatan- The design intent wasnít to have less-bad Curses, but an Attack that dishes out Coppers with reckless abandon while still scaling well with player count.
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CaptainTheo

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #54 on: June 08, 2022, 04:47:00 pm »
0

I have to say I concur with the poster/s who praised Knights. It's one of my favourite cards from Dark Ages. Unless you count Prizes, this is the first pile where each card is different and I love the variety, I find it a lot of fun.

Band of Misfits is another of my favourite cards from the set, and has even been adjusted to be less confusing. I wasn't aware of problems with this one either (in terms of the new version), especially with an extremely similar card (Overlord) in Empires.

I did accidentally overlook Harvest as being another card in Cornucopia that is considered a dud, in terms of being underpowered.
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #55 on: June 08, 2022, 07:40:12 pm »
+1

Well with the way things have been going, Donald has been replacing my favorite cards from the other expansions, so he will likely replace my favorite card from hinterlands too. Iíll gotten gains!

Oh why oh why does Donald always get rid of my favorites and keep my hated cards around. Actually for me there isnít really any cards from hinterlands I hate.

And Iíll gotten gains is only my second favorite. Cartographer is my favorite card from hinterlands. And since cartographer isnít an attack card and is probably the most used card in this expansion I doubt Donald is getting rid of it. But something tells me Iíll gotten gains is going to be killed. Iíll still keep it though.

Like I said I donít hate any of the cards from this expansion but I have noticed some cards are weaker than others. Farmland and duchess.

If Donald replaces any of the following cards Iíll still keep them. And play with them regularly.

Cartographer
Iíll gotten gains
Highway
Trader
Tunnel
Scheme
Stables
Oasis
Nomad camp
Noble brigand
Border village
Haggler
Margrave (if he replaces it with a different milita attack variant then Iíll replace it)

If he replaces any of the other cards then I wonít mind replacing them. And I donít mind if any of the other cards stay either.

Iím going to miss playing Iíll gotten gains online.

Hinterlands was the first expansion I ever bought. My friend had already bought intrigue and seaside and at the time we decided to buy different expansions. Of course now between 4 of my friends we have all the expansions and the only ones I never bought were intrigue, renaissance and Allies. And even though most of my friends have most of the expansions, Iím the only that got nocturne and alchemy.

I wonder if heís going to revise alchemy? I feel thatís the expansion that needs the most work. Possession is banned online, and half of the cards are hardly ever used. I feel like he should do it even if heís only replacing a few of them. Also if he created other cards that make the potions more useful. Or maybe even making the potion give you +1$ every time you play it. Thereís only like 16 of them, it wouldnít take much to change potion. I mean if heís already remastered 4 expansions he should remaster all of the expansions that came before adventures at the very least. Even dark ages has some cards, like rebuild that should be replaced.

Although I guess heís trying to forget he ever created the alchemy expansion in the first place. Although honestly if he made alchemy a little bigger would it be such a bad thing? Yes itís very different from other expansions but look at nocturne that expansion is way more different than alchemy and yet most people still like nocturne over alchemy. Plus night cards were never reintroduced into other expansions, same with reserve cards from adventures they were never reintroduced to other expansions either.  So why not make alchemy a bigger potion expansion. Thereís plenty of room in there for more cards. I like alchemy so much I made several of my own and even made some durations that utilize potions.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2022, 07:57:43 pm by ClouduHieh »
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #56 on: June 08, 2022, 08:56:29 pm »
+4

I wonder how far these second editions will go? Will Dark Ages get one? It'd be nice to finally see Rebuild and Cultist go, but I'm not sure there are enough other cards to be replaced. Adventures? I hope not, I'd hate to see Miser replaced. Or is Hinterlands it?

I assume that Dark Ages 2E is ready and waiting to be announced.  In past musing about second editions, DXV has listed a number of things that he would like to see changed.  So I am sure that it will be part of this binge of releases. Beyond that:
[...]

I don't think so, since the recommended Seaside 2E/Dark Ages kingdoms in the rulebook only contain 10 existing DA cards. If DA 2E was about to be released, chances are that the recommended kingdoms would include some replaced DA cards, like they do for Base, Intrigue, Prosperity and Hinterlands. (I suppose Donald could intentionally have only used remaining DA cards in order to not spoil a DA 2E. But as I understand his post in this thread, he intentionally included lots of Hinterlands 2E cards in the rulebook as a "hidden" spoiler for careful readers to discover.  :D)

Also, Donald X. is only human - I wouldn't expect him to have two full expansions and three 2nd editions ready to publish in just one year. ;)

Personally, I am surprised that Hinterlands 2E is being done at this time.  I saw it as a fairly well-done set, and enjoy Trader (although the reaction does not get used often).  From my standpoint, the case for doing a Dark Ages 2E is similar.  If DXV and RGG chose not to do it at this time, it would be a combination of feeling that 3 2E-s is enough for now and Dark Ages being a bit less than a decade old.

As for any hints:  Perhaps the Dark Ages hint is in what the new suggested sets do not use instead of what they use.  In that respect, there are 3 cards that were listed in the 1E suggested games for Seaside and Dark Ages but not in the 2E list:  Death Cart, Feodum, and Urchin.  it also is noteworthy that the cards in the suggested games which use Adventures and beyond the cards for the other sets have not been changed.  I cannot guarantee that these cards are being removed (and Death Cart would surprise me), but the possibility is there.

Otherwise, your remark that DXV is only human is one that I agree with.  I also think that RGG would worry about saturating the Dominion market with all of these new releases.  If Dark Ages 2E is in the pipeline, it almost certainly will be the last update for this year.  I also do not expect the next expansion to be released this year so as to keep the expansions spaced out.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2022, 09:42:35 pm by ems57fcva »
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #57 on: June 08, 2022, 10:20:57 pm »
+1

I was looking at the Allies suggested sets of 10.  The following cards are listed in the Allies & Hinterlands section: Farmland, Haggler, Jack of All Trades, Margrave, Tunnel, Border Village, Crossroads, Highway, Inn, and Spice Merchant.  Since DXV was already working on Hinterlands 2E as he was also working on Allies, I think that it is fair to say that those cards are definitely staying.

I won't speculate on what cards will be removed or added:  That will be made clear soon enough.  Based on past experience, it seems that DXV is asking 3 questions:  What does this do for the game?  What does this do to the game?  Can it be replaced with something better?  I see where the last question has driven some unexpected changes.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #58 on: June 08, 2022, 10:50:08 pm »
+8

I was looking at the Allies suggested sets of 10.  The following cards are listed in the Allies & Hinterlands section: Farmland, Haggler, Jack of All Trades, Margrave, Tunnel, Border Village, Crossroads, Highway, Inn, and Spice Merchant.  Since DXV was already working on Hinterlands 2E as he was also working on Allies, I think that it is fair to say that those cards are definitely staying.

This turned out not to be true for Prosperity. The recommended sets of 10 include references to Talisman and Trade Route, which were removed from Prosperity 2E.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #59 on: June 08, 2022, 11:21:02 pm »
+10

I also do not expect the next expansion to be released this year so as to keep the expansions spaced out.

It's public knowledge at this point that there is a whole new expansion planned for this year. There may be delays of course, but so far everything seems to be moving along swiftly. I'm normally pessimistic about releases and even I think it has a pretty decent shot at coming out this year.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #60 on: June 09, 2022, 03:11:41 pm »
+1

Logically, "Nomads" will set up a one-time effect you use the turn after you buy it.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #61 on: June 20, 2022, 09:54:53 am »
0

I suppose that also means that we have a good idea of some cards that are not leaving: Cartographer, Crossroads, Farmland, and Stables.

boo Cartographer blows, same with alchemist.  It almost doubles game-times and is boring AF when it's not your turn for 5 minutes. On my ban list.  My own personal hell would be an alchemist/cartographer game
« Last Edit: June 20, 2022, 01:40:00 pm by Honkeyfresh »
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #62 on: June 20, 2022, 01:40:54 pm »
0

Hinterlands 2E will follow a few weeks or so after Prosperity 2E. I don't have a more precise expectation yet. It will have 9 new cards and an update pack with them, like Seaside and Prosperity.

It seemed fun to let some people find out from the Seaside 2E rulebook.

Dominion Easter Eggs
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #63 on: June 20, 2022, 01:41:56 pm »
0

9 new cards will likely mean that 9 existing cards will be removed, as Hinterlands 1E only has 8 blanks.

In principle two VP cards could be replaced by Actions/Treasures to make room for a 27th card. But with Farmland staying this seems very unlikely - I don't expect Tunnel and Silk Road to both leave.
Or Cache could become an Event, but that would mean "retroactively" introducing an extra mechanics just for one "card".

I'd be sad to see tunnel or silk road join the ranks of the deprecated.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #64 on: June 20, 2022, 01:47:20 pm »
0

Would bet against either card disappearing.

Donald X. has mentioned before that he would simplify Trader if he had a time machine (which seems like a horrifyingly irresponsible use for a time machine, but I digress),

Golf Clap  8)
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #65 on: June 20, 2022, 01:50:26 pm »
0

I do find Margrave an annoying attack but it offers quite a lot and enough similar attacks (Goons, Ghost Ship) have already been removed recently.

Agree.  I think margrave is a little strong.  Maybe make it discard to 4 and not 3?
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #66 on: June 20, 2022, 01:55:35 pm »
0

Develop is amazeballs. Trader is cool. Very much a silver gainer not a trasher as Imrahil3 said. Would bet against either card disappearing.

The 7 obvious ones are Mandarin, Duchess, Cache, Noble Brigand, IGG, Oracle, Nomad Camp.  Oracle is only bad because it's slow to resolve, some other draw replacement will be better.

Hard to guess what the other two of 9 might be, nothing else in the set has clear issues.  I suppose Develop is too weak if you look at it as just a trasher, but it's more of a weird gainer like Dismantle.

I don't tend to ever play develop unless there is a real good reason (fortress, only trasher and junk etc).
If you think as a gainer more than a trasher are you trashing 3's/4's over coppers a lot?  Ever over estates since usually not a 1 card to gain maybe?

I usually trash estates unless there is a good reason to do something else, wonder if i'm not giving this card its due.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #67 on: June 20, 2022, 01:57:25 pm »
0

I think Spice Merchant is secretly one of the least interesting cards ever printed since you just get it on T1/2 every time. I still don't expect it to go, but I do think there is a strong case, theoretically.

It's like the woodcutter or trashing cards. Id like it more if it cave 3 cards and one action or 2 cards and 2 actions just to jazz  8) it up a bit.  8)
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #68 on: June 20, 2022, 02:01:06 pm »
0

What on earth is the argument for getting rid of Develop?
I think Cartographer should go. It's never good or interesting. Night Watchman is what this card wanted to be.

totally agree. And it's basically no time at all.  Whereas repeatedly drawing and then planning out the best permutations for your order is so damn time consuming/ boring for the opponent.

I'd almost always rather buy a night watchman over a cartographer anyway just based on the difference in price points.  But i have it banned so I never see it anyway...
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #69 on: June 20, 2022, 02:04:13 pm »
0

I wonder how far these second editions will go? Will Dark Ages get one? It'd be nice to finally see Rebuild and Cultist go, but I'm not sure there are enough other cards to be replaced. Adventures? I hope not, I'd hate to see Miser replaced. Or is Hinterlands it?

My guess is they all do.  It's pretty easy money as it doesn't take an entire new set/concept and many people will buy the update.  Plus these cards are all theoretical concepts with light beta testing.  The Second edition is taking the cards out that weren't good/great/fun and replacing them with improved cards so each set is a big improvement and Donald wants to make each set as good as possible.  That german perfectionism/ocd in action  :P
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #70 on: June 20, 2022, 02:07:10 pm »
0

I wonder how far these second editions will go?
Alchemy will become a full-sized set

Please let this happen.  Then they can transmute transmute into a decent card.  I love potion cards.  It'd be nice if there were more of them in general. Plus I personally love when there are decks with 2 or even 3 potion cards in them, and we need more potion cards in general to make this happen more often.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #71 on: June 20, 2022, 02:10:45 pm »
0

I think Cartographer should go. It's never good or interesting. Night Watchman is what this card wanted to be.
Is Night Watchman ever good or interesting?

In junking decks without trashing it is.  For similar reason it is good for end games.  Also being able to assemble your engine parts to spike 5+ maybe with gains/+buys is often better than a silver.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #72 on: June 20, 2022, 02:11:57 pm »
0

cartographer's good for getting performance out of otherwise sloggy decks. The trick is you gotta have a couple of them.
precisely why these games take forever
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #73 on: June 20, 2022, 02:16:08 pm »
0

DXV on Hinterlands in 2012:

Quote
Odds are I wasn't going to be so unhappy with this one either, given how recent it is. The one thing I can say is, I thought the set was simpler than people think it is, and I would be strongly tempted to simplify it a little given that I know people think it's complex. Basically make it a little more like the standalone it didn't end up being. To that end the obv. changes are to drop the reactions from Fool's Gold and Trader, to drop the above-line text on Duchess (just leave it +$2), and make a version of IGG that just has $1 or $2 on the top. Possibly either Inn or Mandarin could change, I like them both as-is but they would be some of the wordiest cards left at that point. Noble Brigand is wordy but it needs those words. Probably all of these changes sound awful to you, dear reader, but that's the way of the world. It's hard to see the value in the simplicity I'd gain, but there really is value there. Anyway I went with the more complex versions and it's not so bad that I did.

Well, that commentary seems fairly out of date.  And here's from 2020:

Quote
Hinterlands: The problem here is that mostly I want to tweak cards but keep them, which results in an update pack we can't really sell. So e.g.: move +Buy from Margrave to Cache; drop the Reactions from Fool's Gold and Trader; make Ill-Gotten Gains a $6 that makes $2 and Curses on-gain. There are still cards to replace too though: Noble Brigand (weak), Mandarin (weak, rare weird issues), Oracle (so slow).

And here's the 2021 Thunderminion rankings from best to worst:

Quote
Margrave
Border Village
Highway
Spice Merchant
Stables
Haggler
Inn
Scheme
Jack of All Trades
Crossroads
Fool's Gold
Ill-Gotten Gains
Develop
Oracle
Tunnel
Embassy
Oasis
Farmland
Cartographer
Nomad Camp
Trader
Silk Road
Duchess
Noble Brigand
Mandarin
Cache

Wow! Thanks for the hinterlands through the years parts.

Color me surprised that Spice Merchant is so high on this list and that Silk Road is so low.  I think less experienced players don't understand the fun and power of silk road until they get clobbered a few times with it.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #74 on: June 20, 2022, 02:35:52 pm »
0

I'm wondering why Dark Ages needs a second edition. That feels like a solid set with almost no duds. I'm struggling to think of a single card in the set that feels like it needs replacing actually, despite it being a very large set.
I agree that the set is very solid but there are two outliers: Rebuild and Cultist are ridiculously overpowered.
I agree that both these are very strong, though I'm not sure I agree that rebuild is OP. I think rebuild is just fine.  Cultist is Op.  Maybe just play another cultist (as in 2 max) because an early 5 just creates more Cultists and slogs your opponent so fast. It's kind of like the goons pin effect in that way.

I think that these cards could be improved upon or at least tweaked a bit.

Storeroom. a lil weak though sometimes it shines.  Would like to see a + action or at least + card before you discard to give it just a lil bump in power.
Beggar.  Honestly this card should be sent to the counting house. it just sux.
Armory. I just find this card blah and boring.  Unless there are +action cards in a deck it's usually not worth getting absent edge case scenarios.
Wandering minstrel:  I actually think this is a little OP. Not really sure how i'd fix it, but it's almost worth 5 a lot of the time.  actions, sifting and hand setting is a really powerful combo.  Maybe if it didn't discard the coins it might be a little more in line with a 4 cost card IMHO?
Rebuild:  This card sux.  It's so OP you can't ignore it.  And then it's largely random as to who wins the rebuild mirror battle.  Just junk it.  A lot of people ban it, or in game ban it through agreement.
Altar: a great card especially in the beginning, but absent heavy draw by the end game it becomes a bloated stone in your deck.  Maybe add a +1 card draw for each pile that is empty?  I think it would make it more fun in the end game and also lead to more fun engines and games.
Hovel/Overgrown Estate: Bet you didnt think a ruin would make the list! I'd make this a victory card.  (in a related non dark ages note, I'd like to see Baron be able to discard these so maybe called them Ruined estates.  Never tried to discard an Overgrown estate by a baron, but my guess is it wouldn't work. also like to see them count for silk roads/shepherds etc



« Last Edit: June 20, 2022, 03:15:33 pm by Honkeyfresh »
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #75 on: June 20, 2022, 02:47:50 pm »
0

I'm wondering why Dark Ages needs a second edition. That feels like a solid set with almost no duds. I'm struggling to think of a single card in the set that feels like it needs replacing actually, despite it being a very large set.
Rebuild is pretty much guaranteed to go away if there is a 2E.

Quote
Cornucopia feels like a very solid set with the only card that could be potentially considered a dud being Fortune Teller.
A Cornucopia 2E could, potentially, just add cards, turning it from a small set into a normal-sized set. (If that happened, it would presumably have to be done at the same time as something similar happening to Guilds.) I'll bet some Prizes would be replaced, though.
Tournament would be SO MUCH BETTER If you allowed for a full prize for both players.  Whoever wins the first prize (usually follower's or steed depending on the board) wins the game usually.  I'd be interested in the stats on this.  Same thing with Black Market too. I've in fact made a thread with this at the heart of it (along with the deck parameters manipulation aspect)
Both are way to swingy and unfair.

Would it be possible to have a "Dominion Labs" section on the Dominion game
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20854.msg874615#msg874615

Quote
Anyone who has played with me has probably heard me throw in my philosophical opinions of certain aspects of dominions that I don't Like.  My most frequent is that I kind of hate Black Market and tournament because I find them fundamentally unfair.  The swings are so great with the prizes in Tournament that games are often almost over based on who gets the prize that is most useful in that particular kingdom (ie it lacks, actions, curses, buys, etc).  Same with Black market.  I once got a Fortune on t5.  That game was already over. Or a wall game where one person gets chapel and the other doesn't.  That game is essentially already over.  Because the uniqueness of the cards creates a wild imbalance.  IRL I rectified this by playing "Honkeyfresh's Black AF market" where I set up BM the same, but make TWO decks. One for each.  Then it truly is an easter egg game, where you start seeing cards appear in the other player's deck and get excited knowing what possibilities are out there.  I've also done this with tourney, but the prizes were just defaced coppersmiths that I turned into "Honkeyfresh's  Tourney for Two".  It is SOOOO much more fun and allows you to build the prizes to make a sweet engine, not by saying what do I have to get so that the other player doesn't first.  It would b really neat if somehow this tweak was added to the non rated games section to where you could play with two BM decks/prize piles, as it makes for a really fun, and eminently fairer game.
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Honkeyfresh

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #76 on: June 20, 2022, 02:49:17 pm »
0

I'm wondering why Dark Ages needs a second edition. That feels like a solid set with almost no duds. I'm struggling to think of a single card in the set that feels like it needs replacing actually, despite it being a very large set.

I can see these cards leaving, as DXV has actually called them out as design mistakes, could be improved upon or bad-to-print cards:

- Band of Misfits
- Cultist
- Procession
- Rebuild
- Sage
- Storeroom
- Urchin

In addition, do we really need Beggar and Pillage? Will you really miss these cards? Thatís nine cards in total, just saying.

Oh I forgot Pillage.  Pillage is basically a slightly better Feast.  No one will miss this card.  We have archer now anyway for the hand attacking fans.

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"Rap game Julio Franco, Chuck Norris, Texas Ranger/ Ice on my fingers look like I slap-boxed a penguin." -- Riff Raff Proverbs 4:20

"Sometimes I say some things people may think are just outlandish, but I'm going to have the last laugh." -- Riff Raff  Exodus 6:66

Honkeyfresh

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #77 on: June 20, 2022, 02:50:05 pm »
0

- Procession

You can take my Processions over my dead Fortresses. ;D
Don't you mean Undead Fortress :P
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"Rap game Julio Franco, Chuck Norris, Texas Ranger/ Ice on my fingers look like I slap-boxed a penguin." -- Riff Raff Proverbs 4:20

"Sometimes I say some things people may think are just outlandish, but I'm going to have the last laugh." -- Riff Raff  Exodus 6:66

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #78 on: June 20, 2022, 02:55:31 pm »
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Or maybe even making the potion give you +1$ every time you play it.

I REALLY like this idea.  Would make for super fun games. But I almost prefer the potion to have a plus buy because it would help with the times where the only potion cards are 2 or 3 p and it'd be a nice way to not punish hitting 6p on a board with university or crying pool.
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"Rap game Julio Franco, Chuck Norris, Texas Ranger/ Ice on my fingers look like I slap-boxed a penguin." -- Riff Raff Proverbs 4:20

"Sometimes I say some things people may think are just outlandish, but I'm going to have the last laugh." -- Riff Raff  Exodus 6:66

Imrahil3

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #79 on: June 20, 2022, 03:08:23 pm »
+13

Did you really just respond 18 times?

You had me all excited, I thought new information had been posted.
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Awaclus

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #80 on: June 20, 2022, 03:10:18 pm »
+1

I think less experienced players don't understand the fun and power of silk road until they get clobbered a few times with it.

According to markus stats, which only take into account the games from the top ~1% of players, Silk Road gets completely ignored 63% of the time, and on average, being the only player to gain it lowers your win rate to about 42% when corrected for skill.

Less objectively, eyeballing the Thunderdominion votes, there's a bunch of people I don't recognize (which nowadays doesn't automatically mean they're newbies) but also a bunch of people that I do recognize because they're top players, and it seems like most of the names I'm familiar with agreed with the overall consensus on Silk Road votes.
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Honkeyfresh

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #81 on: June 20, 2022, 06:08:16 pm »
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I think less experienced players don't understand the fun and power of silk road until they get clobbered a few times with it.

According to markus stats, which only take into account the games from the top ~1% of players, Silk Road gets completely ignored 63% of the time, and on average, being the only player to gain it lowers your win rate to about 42% when corrected for skill.

Less objectively, eyeballing the Thunderdominion votes, there's a bunch of people I don't recognize (which nowadays doesn't automatically mean they're newbies) but also a bunch of people that I do recognize because they're top players, and it seems like most of the names I'm familiar with agreed with the overall consensus on Silk Road votes.

I can see that, and it really depends on the board.  But there is a lot of time where a sneaky silk road or hybrid late silk road barage can really do some damage.  But I agree it's not a must play/buy on any board. 
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"Rap game Julio Franco, Chuck Norris, Texas Ranger/ Ice on my fingers look like I slap-boxed a penguin." -- Riff Raff Proverbs 4:20

"Sometimes I say some things people may think are just outlandish, but I'm going to have the last laugh." -- Riff Raff  Exodus 6:66

Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #82 on: June 20, 2022, 09:16:43 pm »
+1

Silk Road always seemed weak to me. Would it be too good if it were 1 for every 3 instead of 1 for every 4?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #83 on: June 20, 2022, 10:07:17 pm »
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Silk Road always seemed weak to me. Would it be too good if it were 1 for every 3 instead of 1 for every 4?

I'm guessing that would be fine.
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faust

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #84 on: June 21, 2022, 12:53:00 am »
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Silk Road always seemed weak to me. Would it be too good if it were 1 for every 3 instead of 1 for every 4?

I'm guessing that would be fine.
I feel like then it would just be better than Duchy too often though. In a relateively normal game you expect to have 4 Provinces by the end of the game. If you also keep your Estates, it only takes 2 Silk Roads for them to be worth as much as Duchies.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #85 on: June 21, 2022, 01:45:49 am »
+1

Silk Road always seemed weak to me. Would it be too good if it were 1 for every 3 instead of 1 for every 4?

I'm guessing that would be fine.
I feel like then it would just be better than Duchy too often though. In a relateively normal game you expect to have 4 Provinces by the end of the game. If you also keep your Estates, it only takes 2 Silk Roads for them to be worth as much as Duchies.

Thatís a big if.
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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #86 on: June 21, 2022, 02:07:24 am »
+1

It's extremely common to get Gardens to also be worth at least 3VP by the end of the game, even when trashing. It's no big deal.
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faust

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #87 on: June 21, 2022, 02:57:27 am »
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Something that I feel would be balanced would a formula like (1 VP per 3 cards) - 1 VP; it scales better but takes time to get to Duchy level. But of course that is probably too awkward to word.
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Holger

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #88 on: June 21, 2022, 03:26:45 am »
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It's extremely common to get Gardens to also be worth at least 3VP by the end of the game, even when trashing. It's no big deal.
That does not match my experience. If the board supports engine play, it is not as if those Gardens are somehow automatically worth 3VPs. You gotta work for that and adapt your play.

To me it seems like Silk Road is currently too bad, but would be too good if the ratio got changed.

If the board supports engine play, you'll usually trash your Estates ASAP, and you'll usually prefer Provinces over $4 Duchies.

The only problem with an improved SR might be a rush: Gaining all SRs and all Estates uncontested (and emptying a third pile) results in 19 VP cards, and 6 VP per SR (instead of 4 VP) would probably make this the dominant strategy on boards with good gainers, about as strong as Beggar/Gardens.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2022, 06:23:21 am by Holger »
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Joxeft

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #89 on: June 26, 2022, 07:44:49 pm »
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Previews are starting tomorrow!
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Holger

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Re: Hinterlands Second Edition "leaked"
« Reply #90 on: June 27, 2022, 01:23:44 pm »
+1

Something that I feel would be balanced would a formula like (1 VP per 3 cards) - 1 VP; it scales better but takes time to get to Duchy level. But of course that is probably too awkward to word.

I think that formula would make SR even weaker as an occasional buy - it would only give more VPs than the original card if you have exactly 15, 18, 19 or ≥21 VP cards. Also, it reaches "Duchy level" at the same time as the original card, with ≥12 VP cards.

I think "1 VP per 3 VP cards that are not Estates" could work, essentially removing the SR/Estate rush strategy while making SR more interesting on boards with Estate trashing...
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