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Author Topic: Emissary and Order of Masons  (Read 1347 times)

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dz

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Re: Emissary and Order of Masons
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2022, 12:29:44 pm »
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I think if Order of Masons shenanigans means that you shuffled nothing, then that should also apply to Astrologers, Star Chart, and Stash too. It seems clear to me that you're not shuffling the Stash, you're just Secret Passaging it into the cards you're shuffling.
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majiponi

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Re: Emissary and Order of Masons
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2022, 12:45:56 pm »
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I think if Order of Masons shenanigans means that you shuffled nothing, then that should also apply to Astrologers, Star Chart, and Stash too. It seems clear to me that you're not shuffling the Stash, you're just Secret Passaging it into the cards you're shuffling.

Unlike Order of Masons, Stash creates a new deck.
Quote
When you shuffle, you may put this anywhere in your deck. (Stash 1st Edition)
1E Stash is repositioned after shuffling. Is 2E different? That is the question.
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dane-m

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Re: Emissary and Order of Masons
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2022, 01:50:38 pm »
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While I've been following this discussion I've found myself being convinced first by one argument and then the other.  I've now decided to try some original thinking instead.

I was contemplating suggesting that a shuffle has occurred if a shuffle is required and an empty deck is transformed into a non-empty deck before cards are drawn.  But then I realised that while that could have worked for the 1E shuffling rules, it wouldn't work for the 2E shuffling rules.  Instead it would have be "A shuffle has occurred if a shuffle is required and the number of cards in the deck is increased before cards are drawn."

In the Emissary and Order of Masons scenario that has been being discussed, this definition would result in a shuffle being deemed not to have taken place (so in accord with Jeebus, Ingix, and Donald's tentative ruling).

In the scenarios involving Stash and other mechanisms for stacking the deck this definition would result in a shuffle being deemed to have taken place.
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Jeebus

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Re: Emissary and Order of Masons
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2022, 02:24:23 pm »
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I think if Order of Masons shenanigans means that you shuffled nothing, then that should also apply to Astrologers, Star Chart, and Stash too. It seems clear to me that you're not shuffling the Stash, you're just Secret Passaging it into the cards you're shuffling.

Unlike Order of Masons, Stash creates a new deck.
Quote
When you shuffle, you may put this anywhere in your deck. (Stash 1st Edition)
1E Stash is repositioned after shuffling. Is 2E different? That is the question.

It's true that Emissary should work the same for Star Chart, Order of Masons and Order of Astrologers.

I always thought of Stash as triggering after you shuffle. You take out the Stashes and reposition them. Stash said "when you shuffle", so that made sense, and worked technically.

(Stash v.2 says "when shuffling," but the card is not supposed to have changed functionally. Star Chart says "when you shuffle", the Orders say "when shuffling". I don't think these wording differences mean anything.)

Then Star Chart came out. It had to trigger before shuffling, unlike Stash. If you use it then (before shuffling), picking a card, it sets up the effect that you place the card on top after shuffling.

The Orders are of course similar to Star Chart.

Stash can also be interpreted in the same way. For Stash it makes no difference, both ways work (unlike for the other 3 cards). But now with Emissary, of course it does make a difference when Stash triggers.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2022, 03:21:54 pm by Jeebus »
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dz

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Re: Emissary and Order of Masons
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2022, 02:52:01 pm »
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It's true that Emissary should work the same for Star Chart, Order of Masons and Order of Astrologers.

I always thought of Stash as triggering after you shuffle. You take out the Stashes and reposition them. Stash said "when you shuffle", so that made sense, and worked technically.

(Stash v.2 says "when shuffling," but the card is not supposed to have changed functionally. Star Chart says "when you shuffle", the Orders say "when shuffling". I don't think these wording differences mean anything.)

Then Star Chart came out. It had to trigger before shuffling, unlike Stash. If you use it then (before shuffling), picking a card, it sets up the effect that you place the card on top after shuffling.

The Orders are of course similar to Star Chart.

Stash can also be interpreted in the same way. For Stash it makes to difference, both ways work (unlike for the other 3 cards). But now with Emissary, of course it does make a difference when Stash triggers.

If you look at the latest Renaissance rulebook, Star Chart now says "when shuffling." That rulebook still has outdated wordings for Citadel and Patron, and well we can just ignore that.

I'm not so convinced that Stash is an exception. I think Donald X. always intended that Stash isn't being shuffled, and you just Secret Passage the Stashes into the shuffled cards.

Notice that this wording that's supposed to maintain Stash 1E's functionality says "set this aside." (And the reason this wording wasn't used is because it's just so wordy for no real gain.)

To maintain the old functionality, [Stash] would be something silly like

$2
Before shuffling cards that include this, set this aside, look at any cards not being shuffled but about to be seen, and after shuffling, put this anywhere in the shuffled cards.

I'd argue that Stash 1E and 2E aren't actually different from each other (just like how Nomad Camp in 2011 is the same as Nomad Camp in 2017), but it's pretty hard to put effort into figuring out how Stash works.
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majiponi

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Re: Emissary and Order of Masons
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2022, 07:47:34 pm »
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Notice that this wording that's supposed to maintain Stash 1E's functionality says "set this aside." (And the reason this wording wasn't used is because it's just so wordy for no real gain.)

To maintain the old functionality, [Stash] would be something silly like

$2
Before shuffling cards that include this, set this aside, look at any cards not being shuffled but about to be seen, and after shuffling, put this anywhere in the shuffled cards.

I'd argue that Stash 1E and 2E aren't actually different from each other (just like how Nomad Camp in 2011 is the same as Nomad Camp in 2017), but it's pretty hard to put effort into figuring out how Stash works.

Oh, I didn't know that thread. What I thought 1E Stash does is,

1. shuffle all cards in my discard pile,  including Stash
2. find Stashes from the new shuffled deck, looking at backs
3. reposition found Stashes.

I admit nobody does like this, but this is what I understood Stash literally.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Emissary and Order of Masons
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2022, 09:35:18 pm »
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Notice that this wording that's supposed to maintain Stash 1E's functionality says "set this aside." (And the reason this wording wasn't used is because it's just so wordy for no real gain.)

To maintain the old functionality, [Stash] would be something silly like

$2
Before shuffling cards that include this, set this aside, look at any cards not being shuffled but about to be seen, and after shuffling, put this anywhere in the shuffled cards.

I'd argue that Stash 1E and 2E aren't actually different from each other (just like how Nomad Camp in 2011 is the same as Nomad Camp in 2017), but it's pretty hard to put effort into figuring out how Stash works.

Oh, I didn't know that thread. What I thought 1E Stash does is,

1. shuffle all cards in my discard pile,  including Stash
2. find Stashes from the new shuffled deck, looking at backs
3. reposition found Stashes.

I admit nobody does like this, but this is what I understood Stash literally.

Whereas I always interpreted it as something that happens during the very act of shuffling; due to the fact that you can see the card back, you can "cheat" the shuffle be putting your marked cards wherever you want. The rules text just gives you permission to do what you would naturally be able to do due to them being marked cards.

Though that interpretation was back when it was only Stash. The same thing doesn't work for any of the other cards now being talked about, since they aren't marked in the same way.
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