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Author Topic: Prosperity 2E Preview 3  (Read 15380 times)

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LastFootnote

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Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« Reply #75 on: June 10, 2022, 11:30:45 am »
0

It was a known issue, but what’s your suggested solution? Would it be better for Collection to have a confusing, hard-to-remember wording? It would be be great if the combo never came up in random sets online.

A possible solution could be to change the wording for Collection to "..., when you gain an Action card from the Supply, ...".

That was considered, I believe. Is that worth losing all the other non-Supply combos with Collection though? And will casual players remember that clause when it comes up so seldom?
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trivialknot

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Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« Reply #76 on: June 10, 2022, 12:10:21 pm »
+1

Even more nuts than Collection + Stampede: Collection + Cavalry + Academy + Way of the Butterfly. 

Yes, this actually happened.

I just got into a game that was completely broken because of Collection + Stampede. It would be an endless game if the other player wouldn't resign. I think that's broken game design.

It was a known issue, but what’s your suggested solution? Would it be better for Collection to have a confusing, hard-to-remember wording? It would be be great if the combo never came up in random sets online.
Is that an invitation to post fan variants here?  That's what it sounds like.

Oh, how about a rule that there are a finite number of VP chips available.  Automatically resolves all the VP-chip related stalemate problems.  Easy to house-rule IRL because you do, in actual fact, have a finite number of VP chips.
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silverspawn

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Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« Reply #77 on: June 10, 2022, 12:15:28 pm »
+1

Even more nuts than Collection + Stampede: Collection + Cavalry + Academy + Way of the Butterfly. 

Yes, this actually happened.

I just got into a game that was completely broken because of Collection + Stampede. It would be an endless game if the other player wouldn't resign. I think that's broken game design.

It was a known issue, but what’s your suggested solution? Would it be better for Collection to have a confusing, hard-to-remember wording? It would be be great if the combo never came up in random sets online.
Is that an invitation to post fan variants here?
No
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kieranmillar

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Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« Reply #78 on: June 10, 2022, 12:29:39 pm »
0

The real solution is horses trash themselves on-use instead of being an infinitely large source of action gains, but the time for that is long gone.
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weretheruler

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Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« Reply #79 on: June 10, 2022, 04:46:40 pm »
0

Goons was the best engine payload in the game.

Collection is weaker, but also easier to get and play.

Not sure which is "better" but seems like Collection is relevant in more games. Plus goons BM was not a fun strategy (especially if one person locked the other out of getting one with the attack.)

I like Collection better - while Goons was powerful (and the watchtower goons combo was fun to pull off in the ONE game I ever got to do it in - but my opponent just sat there and was bored - he never let me play with that combo in the kingdom again) I never really thought it was fun.

I think it was a good choice to replace Goons with something this crazy. I might actually buy the update pack just for this card. (I buy about 1 expansion per year, that's about how often I get to play, more than that and I never really get comfortable with the new cards before there are more new cards.)
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Titus

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Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« Reply #80 on: June 10, 2022, 07:36:14 pm »
0

Even more nuts than Collection + Stampede: Collection + Cavalry + Academy + Way of the Butterfly. 

Yes, this actually happened.

I just got into a game that was completely broken because of Collection + Stampede. It would be an endless game if the other player wouldn't resign. I think that's broken game design.

It was a known issue, but what’s your suggested solution? Would it be better for Collection to have a confusing, hard-to-remember wording? It would be be great if the combo never came up in random sets online.

What if Collection said:

-This turn, when you gain an action card, +1vp, unless you gained another copy of it already.-

No pegasusstampede and overall collection wouldn't be that centralizing at all.
It somewhat is a must buy like goons used to be in most games..

« Last Edit: June 10, 2022, 07:38:38 pm by Titus »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« Reply #81 on: June 10, 2022, 08:33:37 pm »
0

I haven't seen mentions of Collection + Populate. I suppose because Populate is just so expensive compared to something like Stampede. But still, seems a bit nuts.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« Reply #82 on: June 10, 2022, 08:34:43 pm »
+7

I haven't seen mentions of Collection + Populate. I suppose because Populate is just so expensive compared to something like Stampede. But still, seems a bit nuts.

Well Populate moves the game toward a conclusion. Collection/Stampede is a golden deck.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« Reply #83 on: June 10, 2022, 08:36:21 pm »
0

I haven't seen mentions of Collection + Populate. I suppose because Populate is just so expensive compared to something like Stampede. But still, seems a bit nuts.

Well Populate moves the game toward a conclusion. Collection/Stampede is a golden deck.

Ah I see.

Also, Cost reduction + Forum + new Trader... this lets you gain every Silver + every Forum, right? With a couple Collections in play...
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jomini

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Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« Reply #84 on: June 10, 2022, 10:07:38 pm »
0

It was a known issue, but what’s your suggested solution? Would it be better for Collection to have a confusing, hard-to-remember wording? It would be be great if the combo never came up in random sets online.

A possible solution could be to change the wording for Collection to "..., when you gain an Action card from the Supply, ...".

A far better solution would be just excluding horses. You can set up some version of Golden deck with just about any good horse gainer. Supplies, Paddock, Livery, and Ride all can generate golden setups without much trouble (e.g. Ride just sets up a turn or two slower and does the same thing as Stampede once you have 5 or more Collections). Sleigh and Cavalry just need some village support and they can also manage the endless golden deck.

All of them revolve around quickly getting a deck that uses horses to draw through and then getting as many Collections as one can before repeating ad infinitum. Livery is the only thing that requires a push toward game end, but any sort of trashing can make that an epic slog through the gold pile.

Stampede is the quickest and most fraught offender, but if this really is game breaking, may as well just house rule out horses.

Certainly, there are far worse edge cases. For instance, you can generate infinite points off a single Collection and a single Villa with Seaway, any cost reduction barring Princess, and Way of the Butterfly. Once you get villa to zero cost with the +buy token on it, just buy (return to Action phase), Butterfly it for every $5 left in the game, and then fail to gain $5s until you get bored of generating VP.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« Reply #85 on: June 11, 2022, 05:43:41 am »
+2

Villa + cost reduction is fun times in general. I remember one game where Villa, Quarry and Pathfinding were all present, and I was the first to get two Quarries in the same hand. By the end of that turn, my deck was now full of Bazaarkets.
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« Reply #86 on: June 11, 2022, 06:26:51 am »
0

I personally would suggest to reduce the price of Horse to $2 and to change Collection into "when you gain an Action card costing $3 or more, +1 VP" (or just restricting Collection to cards costing $4 or more). Another idea is to add a below-the-line clause to Horse that states "Gaining this cannot make you gain other cards or tokens", so that horses also aren't busted with Merchant Guild. But both of these ideas have their own ramifications, of course.

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Imrahil3

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Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« Reply #87 on: June 11, 2022, 08:57:58 am »
+11

Guys, just let the game have wild combos.

There are plenty of cards in the game that warp it so much your usual strategies go out the window.  Both players have equal access to the Collections and the Horses. If both show up at the same time, guess what? You get to contest a pile of good cards, just like every other game of Dominion.

If you’re playing for fun, there are exactly 0 people forcing you to use this combo. Replace Collections or replace the Horse gainer. If you’re playing ranked, the whole point of that game mode is to test your skills against other players in a variety of circumstances and see who is better able to adapt to unusual strategies.

No more errata. No more replacements or rules changes. Let the game be. If there’s a combo you don’t like, don’t put it on the board.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« Reply #88 on: June 11, 2022, 03:33:30 pm »
+5

Guys, just let the game have wild combos.

There are plenty of cards in the game that warp it so much your usual strategies go out the window.  Both players have equal access to the Collections and the Horses. If both show up at the same time, guess what? You get to contest a pile of good cards, just like every other game of Dominion.

If you’re playing for fun, there are exactly 0 people forcing you to use this combo. Replace Collections or replace the Horse gainer. If you’re playing ranked, the whole point of that game mode is to test your skills against other players in a variety of circumstances and see who is better able to adapt to unusual strategies.

No more errata. No more replacements or rules changes. Let the game be. If there’s a combo you don’t like, don’t put it on the board.

I would say there's a difference between wild combos and game-breaking combos. What I mean by that is, Collection-Stampede lets all players get into a stalemate by racking up VP forever. That's not just a wild combo.

But in general I prefer some craziness to awful clauses like "$3 or more", which seemed fine at the time but in retrospect is awful especially on Band of Nomads.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« Reply #89 on: June 11, 2022, 03:35:47 pm »
+2

Is that an invitation to post fan variants here?  That's what it sounds like.

I think there's a big difference between "I wish this card worked this way instead" and "Hey Donald X., check out these fan cards I made!" I mean maybe there's not a specific line between the two, but I'm not worried at all about what's being discussed here.
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4est

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Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« Reply #90 on: June 11, 2022, 04:00:33 pm »
+1

Personally, I think Collection is fantastic as it is, and easily one of the best 2E changes. Yeah, it's got some bonkers combos, but man, bonkers games are fun sometimes, and Collection gets all the fun parts of Goons without the swingy parts of costing $6 and the Militia attack. It is indeed a very strong and often centralizing card, but it does so without being unfair or ignoring the rest of the kingdom, which is exactly what you want in a strong card--you still need draw and trashing and actual good Actions to gain for Collection to really help you.

I'll admit, Collection does compare very favorably to cards like Plunder, Spices, Groundskeeper, and Merchant Guild which I know some folks may not like. My one potential nerf isn't to limit the VP bonus (guys, that's the fun part, don't nerf that) but to actually just make it give $1 instead of $2. You'd still want these for the VP, but you'd then need other sources of $ to support it. You can still go nuts with Horses, but not quite as nuts. Again though, I still like Collection as it is, and am super happy it exists. (Also, the Stampede combo is super rare you guys, and if you're IRL, just uh pick a different card?).
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LastFootnote

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Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« Reply #91 on: June 11, 2022, 04:09:23 pm »
+3

Collection actually did make only $1 for a while, I believe. It got bumped up to $2.
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Imrahil3

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Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« Reply #92 on: June 11, 2022, 04:13:48 pm »
+2

But in general I prefer some craziness to awful clauses like "$3 or more", which seemed fine at the time but in retrospect is awful especially on Band of Nomads.

Totally agree.

I respect not wanting unending combos. I didn't at all mean to say I think Collections + Stampede is good for the game.

I don’t like limiting clauses on cards that only exist to stop hyper-optimized players from going too far with it but make life worse for the rest of us who are just having fun.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« Reply #93 on: June 11, 2022, 04:43:26 pm »
+3

I seem to remember reading this exact same conversation many years ago, when Prosperity first came out and people discovered KC+Goons+Masquerade.
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Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« Reply #94 on: June 11, 2022, 05:03:35 pm »
0

I seem to remember reading this exact same conversation many years ago, when Prosperity first came out and people discovered KC+Goons+Masquerade.

KC+Goons+Masquerade was fine because as soon as someone was doing that, you had a clear winner and the other player could resign. Collection+Stampede results in both players starving to death, unless one of them failed to do it.
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Gherald

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Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« Reply #95 on: June 11, 2022, 08:20:01 pm »
+3

Quote
Collection+Stampede results in both players starving to death
I don't know how it is for you but I can eat and play Dominion at the same time. Sleep deprivation will play a bigger factor ;)
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Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« Reply #96 on: June 12, 2022, 02:00:31 pm »
+3

Am I right that Collection + Stampede is only a starve-to-death if they split 5-5?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« Reply #97 on: June 12, 2022, 02:54:09 pm »
+3

What makes Collection + Stampede different than Fortress+Bishop, for example? Even if Collection gives far more points-per-turn, that shouldn't matter, should it? All that matters is that you've build a deck which generates any number of points per turn where you don't want to buy any card to add to the deck.
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Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« Reply #98 on: June 12, 2022, 03:46:42 pm »
+2

Am I right that Collection + Stampede is only a starve-to-death if they split 5-5?

Yes. It also might not be if a player isn't thin enough early enough.
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Re: Prosperity 2E Preview 3
« Reply #99 on: June 12, 2022, 03:51:32 pm »
+4

What makes Collection + Stampede different than Fortress+Bishop, for example? Even if Collection gives far more points-per-turn, that shouldn't matter, should it? All that matters is that you've build a deck which generates any number of points per turn where you don't want to buy any card to add to the deck.

The difference is that you can beat Fortress+Bishop by building an engine that uses Fortress and Bishop to score points faster than the golden deck can, whereas Stampede's 5-card limit prevents you from incorporating it in an engine, and nothing can beat 50 VP/turn.
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