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Author Topic: Fan Mechanics Week 38: In Sickness and in Health  (Read 2320 times)

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infangthief

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week 38: In Sickness and in Health
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2022, 04:22:38 am »
+1

Here are some wacky things that could happen if you combine official cards:
  • Scepter combined with an Action card could replay itself forever.
  • Madman or Spoils combined with anything could cause Combination cards to end up in Madman or Spoils piles. (Would this prevent future gains from these piles?)
  • Patron+Moat could give you unlimited Coffers (since the ruling is you can reveal Moat multiple times to a single Attack).
  • Falconer+Falconer is a double-Province gainer (or double-Platinum, to your hand).

Also, I've updated Magnet (post #12) so you have to actually buy a Treasure, not gain it some other way.
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infangthief

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week 38: In Sickness and in Health
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2022, 05:22:49 am »
+1

I went and made a knights-esque unique pile for this.
Sorry in advance. I'll include some commentary about how each one is different.
It should only need 10 Combination cards, since I think I effectively locked out recursion.

General overview:
Each farmer allows terminally* combining of two* differently-named* Action cards*, which lets you take the respective combination card. The farmer stays in your deck and acts as a BoM-esque command card for specifically the cards it* set aside; the cards set aside do not change or shift once set aside*.

Things with an asterisk aren't on every card - that's one of the parameters I played with.

How do you keep track of which Combination was created by which Farmer?
Or by "the respective combination card" do you mean that you have Combination cards called "Combination James" etc, rather than "Combination 1" etc? And also tokens with the names rather than the numbers.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2022, 05:24:37 am by infangthief »
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spineflu

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week 38: In Sickness and in Health
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2022, 08:57:48 am »
+1

I went and made a knights-esque unique pile for this.
Sorry in advance. I'll include some commentary about how each one is different.
It should only need 10 Combination cards, since I think I effectively locked out recursion.

General overview:
Each farmer allows terminally* combining of two* differently-named* Action cards*, which lets you take the respective combination card. The farmer stays in your deck and acts as a BoM-esque command card for specifically the cards it* set aside; the cards set aside do not change or shift once set aside*.

Things with an asterisk aren't on every card - that's one of the parameters I played with.

How do you keep track of which Combination was created by which Farmer?
Or by "the respective combination card" do you mean that you have Combination cards called "Combination James" etc, rather than "Combination 1" etc? And also tokens with the names rather than the numbers.

yep, exactly: "James's Combination", "Sam's Comination", etc.
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Galaxi

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week 38: In Sickness and in Health
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2022, 10:24:15 am »
+2

Initially I really tried to make some kind of card which combines cards of your choosing. But I kinda feel like that has a lot of issues like balancing, specific card combinations as pointed out by others, and also many ideas really just turn into variations of the example card. Then I tried some simpler ideas like for instance victory cards which combines with stuff when you buy them, but it's really not that interesting. So my conclusion was that combining specific cards was the route I wanted to take. This also allows for creating multiple different cards using the mechanic that can all be interesting on the same board, which I feel is important when creating a new mechanic(why create a mechanic just for 1 card you know). So here's what I made:



With say 30 Examiners in its pile.

Edit: Realized now that I put a * instead of + on Overseer, but I'm to lazy to fix it  ;D
« Last Edit: May 28, 2022, 08:03:10 am by Galaxi »
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Joxeft

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week 38: In Sickness and in Health
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2022, 09:40:14 am »
0

(My submission has been updated so it doesn't have movement problems.)
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emtzalex

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week 38: In Sickness and in Health
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2022, 03:56:46 pm »
+4

My Submission:

Quote
Serfdom • $4 • Event
Combine a non-Action Victory card in your hand with 1 Serf you have in play per $2 it costs (round down).


Setup: Add the Serf pile to the Supply.


Quote
Serf • $1 • Action
+1 Card
+1 Action


FAQ:
In games using Serfdom, add the Serf pile to the Supply. There are 24 copies of Serf, all of which are used.
Serf is a Kingdom card, but there is no randomizer for it. You only play with it when using Serfdom.
When you Buy this, you combine a Victory card (which is not also an Action card) from your hand with one Serf you have in play for each $2 the Victory card costs, rounding down. Thus, an Estate (costing $2) would combine with one Serf, while a Duchy (costing $5) would combine with two Serfs.
Serfdom only works with Serfs you have in play, not ones in your hand or discard pile.
In order to combine a Victory card with Serfs, you must combine the right number, so need to at least that many in play. Thus, if you buy Serfdom with three Serfs in play, you could not combine a Province (costing $8), as you do not have enough Serfs. However, you could combine an Estate (costing $2) with one of the Serfs you have in play.



Congratulations on the marriage, faust!!! Here's wishing you both many years of happiness.

My submission is Serfdom. It's an Event which lets you combine copies of Serf--a pure cantrip costing $1, a 24-card pile of which is added in games using Serfdom--with Victory cards. This can turn Estates into cantrips, Duchies into Lost Cities, and Provinces into crazy triple-LCs (if you can successfully collide 4 Serfs in play with one of them one).

I am aware that there is technically an accountability issue, as a player could buy Serfdom and lie, saying they don't have a VC in hand when they really do. However, a player never has to buy Serfdom, so there's really no point in deceptively doing so (as opposed to, for example, the OG Throne Room, which might get involuntarily played by Golem or Herald, and could force a player to play a harmful Action card from their hand.
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infangthief

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week 38: In Sickness and in Health
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2022, 03:27:00 pm »
+2

New submission (I've withdrawn my previous entry, Magnet).

EDIT 29th May - Changed name because Mule was already taken, and added "discard your hand" after a small amount of playtesting.
EDIT 1st June - Changed "discard your hand" to "return this to its pile".


Quote
Way of the Turkey
Way

You may combine two differently named Action cards from your hand. Return this to its pile.
FAQ: The Action cards you combine must be differently named from each other. It does not matter whether either has the same name as the card you are playing as Way of the Turkey.

Turkey because of the turkey in "The Owl and the Pussy-cat" poem.

Previous:
« Last Edit: June 01, 2022, 05:00:54 am by infangthief »
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Galaxi

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week 38: In Sickness and in Health
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2022, 03:45:08 pm »
+2

"Way of the Mule" is an official card. Was this an oversight?
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infangthief

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week 38: In Sickness and in Health
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2022, 04:23:35 pm »
+2

"Way of the Mule" is an official card. Was this an oversight?
Oops. I thought it was familiar, but couldn't see it when I checked the Ways!
I will come up with another hybrid animal. Yakalo?
Thanks.
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fika monster

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week 38: In Sickness and in Health
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2022, 02:49:22 am »
+2

hi sorry i was  on a camping trip and couldnt respond/update

ill will update the card later today
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fika monster

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week 38: In Sickness and in Health
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2022, 11:29:04 am »
0

Beep boop


V2 with improved wording

Quote
Fallen City
Action Duration Attack, $5
At the start of your next turn, +2 Cards +1 Action.

Until then, Until then, at the start of each other player's Clean-up phases, you may have them combine a Burden and an Action they would discard from play.


Quote
Burden
Action, $1*
+1 Card
Discard two cards.

(this card is not in the supply)

There are Thirty Burdens in the Non-supply, +10 for each additional player

Improved wording on fallen city

Non-relevant Note: Burden draws 1 card and then discards 2 cards, cause that seemed a bit more fun then just "discard a card". That way, in some games, You get sifting or can discard the cards you dont want for Draw to X engines, and maybe thats good for you! so Fallen city becomes more situational. altough its still a strong attack i think.
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Galaxi

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week 38: In Sickness and in Health
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2022, 12:05:38 pm »
+2

Fallen City
Action Duration Attack, $5
At the start of your next turn, +2 Cards +1 Action.

Until then, Until then, at the start of each other player's Clean-up phases, you may have them combine a Burden and an Action they would discard from play.

Says "Until then" twice, phases -> phase. With the current wording it's also a bit unclear who chooses the action to get combined with Burden. Without further context I would assume that they choose which action.

I like your name btw :3
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infangthief

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week 38: In Sickness and in Health
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2022, 02:51:42 am »
+1

I think you've now updated the wording again, and it is back to the wrong player doing the combining again. My understanding is that the player who does the combining is the one who ends up with the Combination card in their deck.
Quote
Fallen City
Action Duration Attack, $5
At the start of your next turn, +2 Cards +1 Action.

Until then, at the start of each other player's Clean-up phases, you may choose an action they would discard from play and combine it with a Burden.
Just change the "and" to a ". They" and you should be fine.
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fika monster

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week 38: In Sickness and in Health
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2022, 03:21:29 am »
0

asdasd me and grammar
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faust

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week 38: In Sickness and in Health
« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2022, 01:13:35 pm »
+2

It is time for the 24 hour warning!
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fika monster

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Xen3k

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week 38: In Sickness and in Health
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2022, 06:33:21 pm »
+4



Quote
Profane Grafting - $3+
Event
When you buy this, you may overpay. You may discard a card costing up to the amount you paid. Gain a cheaper card with different card types as it, Combining them.

An event that allows Combining cards that do not share types. I tried to make it so you could not avoid the cost of the card you gain and prevent upgrading the starter cards. There will still be bonkers combinations that can be made, but it will still require some work. Feedback is appreciated.
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infangthief

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week 38: In Sickness and in Health
« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2022, 05:01:57 am »
0

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navical

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week 38: In Sickness and in Health
« Reply #43 on: June 01, 2022, 06:28:19 am »
+5



Quote
Way of the Buffalo
Way
Combine this with a Buffalo.



Quote
Buffalo
Action, $1*
+1 Action
(This is not in the Supply.)

Effectively, apart from all the ways in which it's different, Way of the Buffalo terminally gains a Village. And it makes your card cost $1 more, sometimes you'll be able to do interesting things with that.
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scolapasta

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week 38: In Sickness and in Health
« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2022, 10:33:22 am »
+5

@faust, when are you getting married? Congratulations! I am also having a wedding in late June! :)

On to my entry:

From when the contest started, it was clear that combinations could become very strong, so the way to temper is to make sure you can only with weak cards - what weak card can we make available in every game? Ruins!

I wasn't sure how exactly to best make this work until I saw Way of the Buffalo, above. I hope this entry is different enough, I think it is, since it's only the same when the top ruin is Ruined Village.

So basically, you can sacrifice a play of your Action card in order to make that copy a little stronger for the future. And it should be fun to figure out which of your action cards pairs best with the top Ruin.




Quote
Way of the Vulture - Way-Looter
Combine this with a Ruins from the Supply.
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faust

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week 38: In Sickness and in Health
« Reply #45 on: June 01, 2022, 01:09:09 pm »
+6

This fan mechanic had a bit more pitfalls than I imagined. But I hope everyone still had fun. I won't subtract points if there are infinite combos due to the implementation of the mechanic.

It is time for the results!

Augie279: Renaissance Man
This seems very strong. I would maybe avoid allowing Treasures, Silver is always a good addition and makes Renaissance Man nonterminal. Seems fun to build these up though.

emtzalex: Serfdom
It's fun to think how this can turn Duchies into Lost Cities and Provinces into unholy abominations. But it's quite a lot of work to do so. I think it evens out at "if there is spammable +Buy, this will be strong; otherwise ignorable". I feel like you'd only want to get Serf if you have exactly $1 or $2 to spend, and in the absence of lots of +Buy that doesn't happen all that often.

fika monster: Fallen City
I love the idea of using Combinations as an Attack! It might be good if the order of Burden/other card was somehow predetermined, that seems like a decision that is just annoying to make and only has a minor effect most of the time. But it's hard to fit into the text. Otherwise, this is cool. Maybe it favors Big Money too much? But I think probably not.

Galaxi: Overseer
There is value to restricting to a specific card to combine with I think, but I'm not convinced that Examiner is it. Spy was removed for a reason, and these will be even slower.

Gubump: Chimerism
You just get a mighty Action! I like the simplitcity. It has been pointed out that comining non-terminal cards with terminal draw is very good. Too good for this to exist? Well, Lost Arts also exists, so I think it's fine.

infangthief: Way of the Turkey
It seems like Way of the Turkey makes cards without piles very useful (Necropolis?! Or Black Market cards). Maybe it should be contingent on successfully returning the card. It's also not clear to me whether you card return a Combination, and what happens if you do. Other than that, it seems fine. It's interesting that Ways kind of antisynergize with Combinations, so the cost of combining stuff goes up.

jakav: Grow
This lets you get rid of Estates... and then some. Once you have combined some Estates with other stuff, you can keep going! This is starting the get scary... I think a nonterminal $2 is quite too generous for this effect.

Joxeft: Trapper
I'm not sure exactly how to parse this; I assume it wants to prevent combinations with any card that could self-trash or similar. I think the condition is a bit unclear but let's roll with it. The main potential issue I see here is that you might condense your deck down to like 5 Combinations that just do everything you ever want, and any extra cards that you gain are gobbled up. It's costly to begin with, but I assume this resolves itself quickly. An issue that I have is that it seems like you want this early so you can get powerful combinations, but if you get it too early you won't be able to use it. Maybe that means it evens out? It's hard to tell. Also this requires nonterminal Actions in the kingdom or it's just dead, which is a bit of an issue.

LibraryAdventurer: Partnership
I'm unsure what the "other" means here. Other than Partnership? Other than the card you trashed? Anyways, this seems reasonably strong. It's less exciting than some other entries but maybe that means it's also less broken. I would suggest allowing this to also trash Coppers (but not giving the combine benefit when you do), just so it has something to do when you draw it with like 3 Coppers. Also, Durations should probably not be valid targets for either effect.

navical: Way of the Buffalo
You can put a +Action on any Action. Neat! How many Buffalos are there though? 30 to match the 30 Combinations?

scolapasta: Way of the Vulture
THis is much like the above but I think I like it less. Part of that is the problem of what happens when Ruined Market is the only +buy. And on the other hand there are duds; like it doesn't seem very appealing to forgo an Action play just to tack a Survivors on.

spineflu: Farmers
I think using this mechanic with a Knights-style pile is just a bit much for me in terms of complexity. Also it seems like these are pretty slow; you have to be able to reliably draw them with 2 other Actions and by the time you are able to do so how much use will you even get out of the Combination?

Xen3k: Profane Grafting
From the card text it's not quite clear to me that the cards may not share types, but it's explained in the post, so that's fine. This could be pretty good on Silvers if you have cheap $2 Actions. And of course you can alway turn your Estates into VP Coppers, but that's kind of expensive. I think this is solid, the balance seems to work.

Lots of fun ideas here that I would love to try!

Runner-up: Chimerism by Gubump

Winner: Fallen City by fika monster
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faust

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week 38: In Sickness and in Health
« Reply #46 on: June 01, 2022, 01:09:59 pm »
+1

@faust, when are you getting married? Congratulations! I am also having a wedding in late June! :)
Congratulations to you as well! You'll be first then, my wedding is on July 2!
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fika monster

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week 38: In Sickness and in Health
« Reply #47 on: June 01, 2022, 03:37:55 pm »
+1

nice! thanks, ill whip something up quickly
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infangthief

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week 38: In Sickness and in Health
« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2022, 11:24:17 pm »
0

Good contest.

It's also not clear to me whether you card return a Combination, and what happens if you do.
Good catch, I hadn't thought about that.

But actually, it is a more general point that would need clarifying about the combine mechanism. As things are written it would seem that Combination cards can be returned to their pile (and not just by Way of the Turkey, but also by WotHorse, WotButterfly, Swap and any Combination involving a Horse, a Wish or a traveller). But then what happens to the corresponding token and set aside cards? I guess it's ok for them to remain as they are? Then if later in the game a new Combination is made, the token moves to the new set aside cards and the old ones remain set aside without a token.

So, er, all ok perhaps.

It's a sign of a good mechanism that things do seem to work themselves out ruleswise. But definitely an FAQ would be needed for stuff like this!
« Last Edit: June 01, 2022, 11:32:45 pm by infangthief »
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emtzalex

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week 38: In Sickness and in Health
« Reply #49 on: June 10, 2022, 06:43:06 pm »
+3

So, I have a number of thoughts on this mechanic, and designed several additional cards. I've been slammed at work, which is why I didn't post any of this sooner, and I'm actually going to break this into multiple posts.

One big question I had about this mechanic, in terms of design for it, is how strong is the capacity to combine cards (and, in particular, to combine Action cards). My first impression is that combining Action cards is incredibly strong. It is not hard to think of 2 card combinations that are extremely powerful. There are obvious examples:

Smithy
+
Village

and some less obvious, but very strong examples, like

Tactician
+
Watchtower

Highwayman
+
Tide Pools

Even if you put some kind of a cumulative price limit on the combo, you can still get incredibly powerful combos with cheap cards, like...

Moat
+
Scheme

...which is a double-Lab you get every turn, and gives you complete protection from attacks (that is even stronger than Champion as, unlike Champion, you have the option to hold back Moat + Scheme when you want to be affected by the attack), or...

Courtyard
+
Native Village

... a net-LC which thins from your deck (while keeping for scoring purposes) a card each turn (by topdecking it, then setting it aside with NV).

Now, these are specific combos, but some obvious patterns emerge: pairing non-terminal cards (especially cantrips) with terminal cards (especially terminal draw), you get the added strength that terminal cards provide with no risk of a terminal collision. Combining cards that move themselves with cards that you benefit from always/usually having can allow you to have that other card far more than you otherwise would.

Taking a step back to think more analytically, there are three ways in which combining Action cards provides a huge boost to their power:

Two-for-one: When you think about Action cards and what they do, one useful tool is to imagine that every Action card (when played normally from your hand) has a hidden “-1 Card, -1 Action” on it; you play the card from your hand (reducing your handsize by one) and spend an Action to play the card. Thus to the extent a card is a “cantrip” (e.g. gives “+1 Card, +1 Action”) it leaves you in the same position as if you hadn’t played the card, and anything you get in excess of that (+1 Action from Village, +1 Card from Lab, +$1 from Peddler) can be said to be the “net” effect of the card. When you combine two Action cards, the hidden effect of playing both of them from your hand goes from being “-2 Card, -2 Actions” to being a regular “-1 Card, -1 Action.” That means the net-effect of combining any two Action cards is +1 Card, +1 Action, or a Lost City. Lost City is underpriced at $5 (which is why it gives you a penalty in the form of a bonus for your opponents), so it should almost always cost at least $5 to combine two Action cards (this is an oversimplification, because the LC you get from combining cards can only be played together with those 2 cards, as opposed to an LC that goes into your deck and can combine with any cards for extra Cards/Actions).

Collisions – Once two cards are combined, they will always be played together, in order. This can be incredibly powerful. The most obvious examples are to combine terminal cards (especially terminal draw) with non-terminal cards. Because of the hidden LC, they don’t even have to be villages, anything that gives +1 Action makes the whole package non-terminal, and quickly turns into an incredibly powerful card.

Following cards played not from your hand – the last advantage is a somewhat more obscure one, and only helps in a limited number of contexts. In almost every other case, when you play an Action card, you have to play it from your hand. That means it has to be in your hand immediately before you play it. By combining cards, you can play subsequent cards not from your hand. This means that even if the first card empties your hand (i.e. with Tactician) or works better without Action cards in your hand (e.g. Shanty Town), you can play them, and play another Action right after them. The only way to do this will official cards is with Golem (which gives you almost no control over what the 2 cards will be) with a Throne variant and a Way (which only lets you play the Way and the card you Throne as the different options), and by setting up multiple cards to be played at the start of your turn (using Delay, Way of the Turtle, certain Durations, etc.) which is limited both in needing those cards to enable it, and in happening at the start of your turn (so you can't first play the cards you have, which is what you'd want to do for, say, Tactician + DtX).

All of this suggests that combining cards, especially Action cards, needs to be subject to some important limitations. It either needs to be expensive (at least $5), or it what is being combined needs to be subject to some important limitations. I tried to keep that in mind when I was designing my cards.
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