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Author Topic: Prosperity 2E  (Read 7774 times)

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Oyvind

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2022, 03:55:57 am »
0

I just want to explain what I meant. I donít wish for the nine cards I mentioned to be removed, but it seems like several people believe that. I just stated which nine cards I think would be removed, assuming, hopefully erroneously, that the number of cards would remain at 300. I like Holgerís idea to just include the nine new cards without subtracting any existing ones. Iím crossing my fingers for that.
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Imrahil3

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2022, 09:30:46 am »
+3

Oh, Iím sorry man, I didnít mean to call out anyone in particular. I just meant that I donít like people saying ďFinally! We can get rid off X terrible card,Ē and then itís something fun and useful that just happens to not always be the best card for optimal play.

I donít have any issues with guessing whatís gonna go or being excited for new cards
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Awaclus

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2022, 09:45:00 am »
0

I don't think it's too unlikely the expansion is just getting bigger you might even say that it's expanding... you might even say that it's Expanding, based on what we know about Seaside 2E.
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Donald X.

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2022, 01:35:02 pm »
+12

Prosperity 2E has 300 cards, like Prosperity 1E.
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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2022, 03:20:42 pm »
0

The first eight cards that will be cut seem reasonably clear to me, most of which are typically quite weak: Loan, Trade Route, Talisman, Contraband, Counting House, Mountebank, Royal Seal, and Venture.

Among the three most powerful cards in the set, only Mountebank seems likely to go. The other two, Goons and Kingís Court, tend to make for interesting games even if they are dominant. Loan is fine power level wise but it can feel bad such as when it hits a treasure you wanted to draw instead.

I think Mint is a likely ninth card that gets cut: even though it makes for interesting strategy, there are few other cards that can destroy your whole deck with a single buy if you are not careful, and sometimes drawing a five copper hand early (but usually not in the opening) is a huge advantage with Mint.

Donald has not used earlier second editions to do errata that completely changes how a card plays in typical situations (e.g., the Masquerade errata stopped the "pin" but had little other impact). So, I do not expect to see that happen here either.
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2022, 06:14:15 pm »
+6

9 cards is pretty excessive and just like with Seaside, the cuts also include cards that aren't turning the games into 9-card kingdoms 99.99% of the time. Not sure how I feel about this, but we will see when the 2nd editions actually release.

Anyway, my predictions from most likely to least likely. The first three are cards that we can miss easily without replacements that replicate those cards. For the rest, removing seems a pretty bold move.
1. Royal Seal: This is just a boring card that is extremely unreliable at being anything more than just a $5 costing Silver. While this was always weak, Way of the Seal and Bauble make this thing look incredibly stupid.
2. Trade Route: A very poor trasher, very poor source of +Buy, and Forager does whatever this card tries to achieve insurmountably better. It also doesn't help that this card is super wordy and requires additional tokens.
3. Contraband: This card has a penalty that makes this card borderline unusable in pretty much any board, unless your opponent is really missing your strategy. As a source of +Buy, it is also pretty much the worst as its penalty completely negates the ability to bypass the dreaded one-province-per-turn limit. (and generally, a $5 gold just isn't interesting these days)
4. Venture: This is a card that used to be regarded quite fondly, but just has no place anymore these days. It is completely useless with draw, and it is also pretty bad without Copper trashing. And even outsite of these cases, it is still rather unimpressive. And of course, comparing favorably to Adventurer no longer counts.
5. Loan: This card isn't too bad, but becomes pretty luck based as soon as a second Treasure that you don't wanna get rid of enters your deck. And what does this trasher bring on table that other trashers don't? It is also the card that Donald X originally considered as "the only dud of Prosperity".
6. Hoard: It is a fine card, albeit on the uninteresting side. The real kicker against this card is that it is almost exclusively useable in Province games; a really bad feat for a Prosperity card.
7. Counting House: It is part of the utterly obscene combo called Counting House + Travelling Fair, which some consider to be the strongest synergy within the entirety of Dominion. But does it ever get used outside of that scenario? Prior to Adventures, the answer is yes (but very sparsely), and it was satisfying to massacre unsuspecting players with this, but nowadays it really doesn't seem to be.
8. Goons: This card is a pretty frustrating to play against, as the handsize attack causes makes it difficult to come back when falling behind. Another thing to consider is that fact that Donald X wants to retcon the use of "While this is in play" out of existence. While the solution is trivial in most cases, Goons's in-play effect really shouldn't be Throneable.
9. Mountebank: I've never really had much problems with this card. But it is not very Prosperity-y and if there is another Curser in store for 2E, then this one should go. And yes, handing out 2 junk cards on a singular play is excessive, as is being able to junk even when the Curse pile is depleted.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2022, 06:27:45 pm by grrgrrgrr »
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2022, 07:05:58 am »
0

Well if goons gets replaced Iíll just throw out the entire prosperity expansion, itís the only card I like from that expansion. Okay Iím going overboard, I do like a lot of cards in the expansion. But goons is in my top 10 most favorite dominion cards. And honestly Iím just not big on the big money strategy. I have no problems getting 24$ and several buys in the dark ages expansion on its own and itís much more fun to combo your way from the ground up then it is throwing a couple platinums and a bank instead. Personally these are the cards I want to see replaced.

1. Trade route - At first I liked it, probably because of the mat.  but now I donít.

2. Mint- Iíve always hated this card. Most hated card. Besides there are other expansions that do this without the buy penalty.

3. Royal seal - thereís several cards like this but better. And Iím not fond of it.

4. Venture - reminds me of adventurer from the base game, and they of course removed that a long time ago, itís time for this one to join its predecessor. This is my second most hated card.

5. Forge- I just think this card is so-so

I guess I could also see them replacing these as well but I would hate to see them go.

6. Loan - I absolutely hated this at first, but now I do enjoy playing with it.

7. Counting house - itís a weaker copper strategy to be sure. But I can see them replacing since it doesnít work with most of the synergies in this expansion. It only works with forge, itís only real synergy. I guess itís okay with the bank, but then so are most of the other cards.

8. Talisman - itís a good one. But thereís lots of other cards like this so itís nothing special. Not that they can all be special.

9. Contraband - I really like this itís an interactive card. No attack involved. But it can really hinder you if play this several times in the same turn. And so you likely wonít empty this pile out.
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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2022, 09:05:45 am »
+5

I'll be sad to see Contraband go, that is a fun piece of interaction. It should probably have gone into a set that had Events though, the presence of Events makes Contraband much more usable.
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2022, 01:40:31 pm »
+6

The obvious Loan/Venture solution is to just combine the two cards. Their wording is already almost identical. Just switch it to "discard, trash or play it".

This fixes basically all the issues brought up about Loan. And it can make Venture useful even in a treasureless engine.
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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2022, 03:31:55 pm »
+10

2. Mint- Iíve always hated this card. Most hated card. Besides there are other expansions that do this without the buy penalty.

The below-the-line thing is not a penalty, it's the effect. You get to trash five Coppers for $5, that's a very strong effect. The penalty is that the effect comes with a junk card you have to take as well (the Mint).
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ClouduHieh

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2022, 01:23:37 am »
0

Mint isnít just about the trashing. I also am not fond of the action too. Even without the trashing effect I still wouldnít bother playing it very often, maybe one per game, however the trashing effect to gain completely lowers its usefulness. And itís not like you would buy it using golds or playing golds now would you? No because itís not worth it. However if the action gave you something useful like victory tokens or it was worth victory points then yeah Iíll trash any treasures to obtain it. But for an action that I consider mediocre and then the trashing effect to is like adding poison to a plain old loaf of bread. Like I said there are other cards similar to mint but without that trashing effect. In fact thereís one in menagerie thatís ten times better. Kiln. It has the same cost. But it gives you 2$ and you can gain a copy of any card the next time you play it. And wait it doesnít have that awful trashing effect either.  And if you really like the trashing effect so much the count from dark ages can trash with basically the same effect, and you can even mitigate what you do as well as choose another option, plus itís also way more rewarding trashing cards in the dark ages expansion.

So the way I see it. Both kiln and count make mint obsolete! They both do it 10 times better. They both cost the same and they both give better rewards! I absolutely love the count and as for kiln itís a good card. But itís time for mint to join the removed cards list. If they are serious about making changes to prosperity, then mint needs to go, and make way for newer ideas kind of like they did with the Allies and menagerie expansions. New ideas galore!

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GendoIkari

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2022, 01:46:09 am »
+10

Mint isnít just about the trashing. I also am not fond of the action too. Even without the trashing effect I still wouldnít bother playing it very often, maybe one per game, however the trashing effect to gain completely lowers its usefulness. And itís not like you would buy it using golds or playing golds now would you? No because itís not worth it. However if the action gave you something useful like victory tokens or it was worth victory points then yeah Iíll trash any treasures to obtain it. But for an action that I consider mediocre and then the trashing effect to is like adding poison to a plain old loaf of bread. Like I said there are other cards similar to mint but without that trashing effect. In fact thereís one in menagerie thatís ten times better. Kiln. It has the same cost. But it gives you 2$ and you can gain a copy of any card the next time you play it. And wait it doesnít have that awful trashing effect either.  And if you really like the trashing effect so much the count from dark ages can trash with basically the same effect, and you can even mitigate what you do as well as choose another option, plus itís also way more rewarding trashing cards in the dark ages expansion.

So the way I see it. Both kiln and count make mint obsolete! They both do it 10 times better. They both cost the same and they both give better rewards! I absolutely love the count and as for kiln itís a good card. But itís time for mint to join the removed cards list. If they are serious about making changes to prosperity, then mint needs to go, and make way for newer ideas kind of like they did with the Allies and menagerie expansions. New ideas galore!

My most hated card in existence!

Are you under the impression that Chapel is a weak card unless the board happens to have a curser? You seem to be missing the whole point of what Awaclus said... trashing 5 Coppers at once is a very strong effect. Even if Mint did nothing at all when you played it, it would still be a good buy a lot of the time. Yes the on-play effect is bad, but it's just a tiny bonus to what is already a great on-buy effect. It's like saying Border Village is weak because Village already gives you the same effect for only instead of , and that the on-gain effect of Border Village just makes it worse because now you're forced to take another card and maybe you didn't want another card.
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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2022, 02:18:53 am »
+7

The play effect of Mint is situational but not weak. You often need payload after getting rid of those Coppers and besides Kiln and Treasurer, Mint is the only non-Remodel Platinum gainer in the game.
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Awaclus

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2022, 07:19:18 am »
+1

Even if Mint did nothing at all when you played it, it would still be a good buy a lot of the time.

That is honestly not even too far from being the case as it is. It happens that you buy Mint when you don't have the +actions to play it, and the effect is not worth adding the +actions, so you'll never play it. It also happens that you buy it when you don't have any Treasures that are better than nothing, and there's better stuff to do than to buy such Treasures, and again you'll never play the Mint. It also happens that you buy it when you potentially could use it for a small benefit like gaining a Gold, but before your draws line up that way, the Mint lines up with another trasher and you'd rather just take that opportunity to get rid of the Mint, so you do, and you never play it.

Just gaining a Gold is a very disappointing way to spend an action, and for Mint to do that, you first have to have a Gold which is a very disappointing way to spend $6 and a buy, and it needs to line up. If you do happen to have the extra action and the Gold in your hand, getting the free Gold is a nice small bonus, or even getting a Silver can sometimes be better than nothing, but generally you should be trying to do something better than that, even when you get the Mint for free alongside your underpriced two-and-a-half Bonfires.
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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2022, 07:29:12 am »
+1

7. Counting house - itís a weaker copper strategy to be sure. But I can see them replacing since it doesnít work with most of the synergies in this expansion. It only works with forge, itís only real synergy. I guess itís okay with the bank, but then so are most of the other cards.
I am curious, what's the Counting House + Forge synergy?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2022, 10:05:49 am »
+1

7. Counting house - itís a weaker copper strategy to be sure. But I can see them replacing since it doesnít work with most of the synergies in this expansion. It only works with forge, itís only real synergy. I guess itís okay with the bank, but then so are most of the other cards.
I am curious, what's the Counting House + Forge synergy?

Counting House can get a bunch of Coppers into your hand at once, so that Forge can trash them all at once.
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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2022, 10:15:01 am »
+7

The play effect of Mint is situational but not weak. You often need payload after getting rid of those Coppers and besides Kiln and Treasurer, Mint is the only non-Remodel Platinum gainer in the game.
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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #42 on: May 13, 2022, 10:16:46 am »
+7

7. Counting house - itís a weaker copper strategy to be sure. But I can see them replacing since it doesnít work with most of the synergies in this expansion. It only works with forge, itís only real synergy. I guess itís okay with the bank, but then so are most of the other cards.
I am curious, what's the Counting House + Forge synergy?

Counting House can get a bunch of Coppers into your hand at once, so that Forge can trash them all at once.

You could just buy a Mint.
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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2022, 11:38:26 am »
0

If it weren't so far from April 1st, I'd suspect ClouduHieh was trolling us. Honestly I'm still not sure that isn't the case.
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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2022, 12:00:00 pm »
+1

If it weren't so far from April 1st, I'd suspect ClouduHieh was trolling us. Honestly I'm still not sure that isn't the case.

I'm pretty sure he's serious. Given his thoughts a few years ago, it's not surprising he wouldn't be a fan of Mint for its on-buy ability:
Sure a lot of people like to get rid of there starting cards. Iím not one of them.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #45 on: May 13, 2022, 12:12:09 pm »
+3

If it weren't so far from April 1st, I'd suspect ClouduHieh was trolling us. Honestly I'm still not sure that isn't the case.

I'm pretty sure he's serious. Given his thoughts a few years ago, it's not surprising he wouldn't be a fan of Mint for its on-buy ability:
Sure a lot of people like to get rid of there starting cards. Iím not one of them.

Then what IS the Counting House + Forge synergy??

*Edit* Oh, I know! You play Forge, trashing nothing. This lets you gain a card costing exactly , so you can gain a Copper, which makes your Counting House better!
« Last Edit: May 13, 2022, 12:16:23 pm by GendoIkari »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #46 on: May 13, 2022, 12:52:01 pm »
+2

Oh man I did not remember that thread at all, even though I participated in it quite a bit. Having some serious Gunpowder flashbacks.
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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2022, 10:14:46 am »
+1

The play effect of Mint is situational but not weak. You often need payload after getting rid of those Coppers and besides Kiln and Treasurer, Mint is the only non-Remodel Platinum gainer in the game.
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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2022, 11:55:47 pm »
0

If it weren't so far from April 1st, I'd suspect ClouduHieh was trolling us. Honestly I'm still not sure that isn't the case.

I'm pretty sure he's serious. Given his thoughts a few years ago, it's not surprising he wouldn't be a fan of Mint for its on-buy ability:
Sure a lot of people like to get rid of there starting cards. Iím not one of them.

He also tried to make a card to replace Mint in the "design a card for a hypothetical 2E expansion" WDC.
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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #49 on: May 20, 2022, 12:37:01 am »
0

I wonder whether 2E will change the "recommended" method for deciding whether to use Platinum/Colony.
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