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Author Topic: Prosperity 2E  (Read 6228 times)

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dz

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Prosperity 2E
« on: May 04, 2022, 10:00:05 pm »
+7

After 2021 had no new Dominion content, I guess it makes sense that 2022 would pick up the pace. Hey VP token cards were tried out in Allies, this really shouldn't be that shocking.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgameexpansion/362517/dominion-prosperity-second-edition
(The front cover's also cute: https://boardgamegeek.com/image/6849008/dominion-prosperity-second-edition)

"Dominion: Prosperity (Second Edition) contains nine new types of Kingdom cards, which will be released on their own as an update pack for those who own the first edition of this expansion. A few cards will receive minor errata, but these will not appear in the update pack."

What's getting kicked out for the 9 cards? Well I can tell you that unlike Seaside 1E, Prosperity 1E doesn't have 11 blanks in it. I also predict that everyone will complain that card X got removed and card Y survived, but that's to be expected.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 10:07:25 pm by dz »
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BBobb

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2022, 10:08:32 pm »
0

Cards I think will be removed:
Trade Route
Goons
Royal Seal
Counting House
Mountebank
Forge
Contraband
Loan
Talisman
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Hand - King's Court, Ruined Village, Estate, Copper, Possession
Turn -
BBobb plays King's Court
… and plays a Ruined Village.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined Village again.
… … getting +1 Action
… and plays the Ruined village a third time.
… … getting +1 Action.
BBobb plays a Copper.
BBobb buys a Poor House.
(BBobb draws: 2 King's Courts and 3 Possessions)
BBobb=GOD

spineflu

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2022, 10:28:14 pm »
0

I think it's going to be (* replaced with something similar that works in a "this turn" rather than a "while this is in play" sense)
Venture
Royal Seal
Trade Route
Mountebank
Hoard*
Quarry
Goons*
Talisman*
KC
« Last Edit: May 05, 2022, 11:38:05 am by spineflu »
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Hockey Mask

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2022, 11:45:19 pm »
+1

When? When?! WHEN!!!
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Cuzz

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2022, 12:17:50 am »
+6

nine new types of Kingdom cards

seems like a lot of new types
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Donald X.

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2022, 12:37:39 am »
+10

When? When?! WHEN!!!
We expect it a few weeks after Seaside 2E; I can't pin it down more just yet.
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4est

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2022, 11:18:21 am »
+6

Personally, I hope Loan stays. I never got the Loan hate, I think it's honestly one of the better Copper trashers in Dominion. It's often a $3 Junk Dealer in the early game and helps cycle through your Estates. And it can even do a Chancellor thing in the late game if you have no other Treasures. Yes, it plays worse on boards without $ from Actions and the classic Loan hitting Silver and Loan hitting Loan opening fails are always funny, but I still think it's easily the best Kingdom Treasure in Prosperity apart from Quarry.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2022, 06:24:23 pm »
+1

Royal Seal: Obvious Dud #1.
Trade Route: Obvious Dud #2.
Venture: Less interesting than it seemed #1.
Contraband: Less interesting than it seemed #2.
Loan: One of the best trashers when you're building a Treasureless engine, but... you're not always building a Treasureless engine. The annoyance factor will probably doom it, and a card that seeks out Treasures and trashes them doesn't really fit in with a set that's all about gaining Treasures.
Hoard: Outclassed by Haggler.
Goons: Will probably have the same change as Merchant Guild, and maybe the Attack will be removed.
Counting House: Might be replaced with "You may put your deck into your discard pile and put up to 3 Coppers from it into your hand."
Mountebank: Maybe "Each other player gains a Curse, and gains a Copper if they didn't."
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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2022, 10:18:41 pm »
+3

I predict that Trade Route will be removed (no need for coin tokens) and we will get more +VP cards to make use of the VP tokens. Although that raises the question of whether the update pack will have tokens in it. Probably not because it's assuming you already have Prosperity 1E.

Oyvind

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2022, 04:29:38 am »
0

My guesses for removed cards are:

Contraband
Counting House
Goons
King’s Court
Mountebank
Royal Seal
Trade Route
Venture
Worker’s Village
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GendoIkari

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2022, 10:34:01 am »
+4

I can't begin to imagine a Dominion in which King's Court has been removed.
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Imrahil3

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2022, 10:48:14 am »
+14

I’m getting to be a little disappointed with how eager people are to axe cards. Dominion and Intrigue benefited greatly from update packs, but to me it’s getting to the point where the criteria for update is no longer “This is a terrible card that makes the game worse for everyone” but rather “This is a card that is not useful in my hyper-optimized megaturn engine that buys 17 Provinces in a turn.”

I trust Donald’s game design and I know he wouldn’t pull cards if he wasn’t going to replace them with other cool cards. I’m excited to see what we get in the update packs!

But gosh, some people have some awful takes about what should be removed.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2022, 11:04:19 am »
+8

I’m getting to be a little disappointed with how eager people are to axe cards. Dominion and Intrigue benefited greatly from update packs, but to me it’s getting to the point where the criteria for update is no longer “This is a terrible card that makes the game worse for everyone” but rather “This is a card that is not useful in my hyper-optimized megaturn engine that buys 17 Provinces in a turn.”

I trust Donald’s game design and I know he wouldn’t pull cards if he wasn’t going to replace them with other cool cards. I’m excited to see what we get in the update packs!

But gosh, some people have some awful takes about what should be removed.

Absolutely. There's only 2 reasons things should ever be considered for removal. The card is so weak that it just never gets bought by anyone other than complete beginners, and those beginners end up losing because they bought the card. Or the card has an issue of being too confusing or long to resolve in which case it's replaced with a better version of the same thing.

And even then, "removed" might mean something to some people, especially those who play online and can't use them anymore, or those who don't own 1st edition sets. But for me, Woodcutter is always going to be a Dominion card, it's in my Dominion box and everything!
« Last Edit: May 06, 2022, 11:05:28 am by GendoIkari »
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2022, 11:37:38 am »
+4

Absolutely. There's only 2 reasons things should ever be considered for removal. The card is so weak that it just never gets bought by anyone other than complete beginners, and those beginners end up losing because they bought the card. Or the card has an issue of being too confusing or long to resolve in which case it's replaced with a better version of the same thing.
There's also "this card dominates in an unfun way when it's present", but Prosperity doesn't really suffer from that - King's Court and Goons may be dominant cards, but they make for interesting deck-building decisions.
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trivialknot

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2022, 12:09:36 pm »
+5

Donald X's previous comments on Prosperity:

With my Dominion Time Machine...
Prosperity:

Prosperity got more testing than any other set, due to being pushed back for Alchemy. It did not need even more testing; whatever cards could be improved, it would not be worth spending time improving them. That's time that could be spent improving other expansions or working on other games. That's how I see it.

That said, Loan is easily the dud for me. I knew this during that extra testing period but decided to keep it. Looking at it in the set, it's okay. It has basically the same issues as Lookout, only not as bad; less experienced players are terrified of flipping over a Platinum that they now don't get to draw on this pass, while experienced players know that Loan is fine but not the best trasher ever; sometimes it's exciting because you are not buying any other treasures this game. I buy it more than Lookout, but whatever, in general this flipping over of cards thing has to come paired with something like "and get the good ones" in order to not bum people out too much. I don't think Venture makes people not buy it because maybe they'll flip over their good actions, although they will sometimes. But Loan, not a star. Anyway I kept it in knowing this.

Talisman would be a lot more exciting if it could get VP cards somehow, but some people do like it as is. There might have been a good tweak there, dunno. Counting House is narrow but a set can have a narrow card, some people love winning with narrow cards in the games where they are good enough. I just beat FTL's turn-two Mountebank with it so there you go.

What cards would you remove if later sets had an actual 2E overhaul?
Quote
Prosperity: Trade Route, Talisman, Contraband, Mountebank, Venture, Royal Seal. Yes I'd keep Counting House as a narrow card that's sometimes fun. Mountebank would go for being strong and making the game less fun, the rest include some nice concepts but want to be better.
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trivialknot

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2022, 12:21:30 pm »
+1

Kind of funny that in 2012, DXV thought Loan was the dud, but in 2020 doesn't even include it in the list of cards he'd remove.  Loan has probably benefited from shifts in the meta over time.

Assuming DXV hasn't changed his mind on those six (Trade Route, Talisman, Contraband, Mountebank, Venture, Royal Seal), that still leaves possibly 3 others to remove.  I'd bet on Counting House even if DXV said he wanted to keep it.  I'd like to see Goons be replaced with something that's a bit less dominating.  Vault and Hoard are probably the next weakest cards, so maybe we'd see one of those go.
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infangthief

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2022, 02:37:54 pm »
+9

I can't begin to imagine a Dominion in which King's Court has been removed.

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GendoIkari

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2022, 03:10:14 pm »
+2

I can't begin to imagine a Dominion in which King's Court has been removed.

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I almost included this exact idea in my post lol.
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Imrahil3

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2022, 03:53:19 pm »
+4

Kind of funny that in 2012, DXV thought Loan was the dud, but in 2020 doesn't even include it in the list of cards he'd remove.  Loan has probably benefited from shifts in the meta over time.

I think I’d agree with that. If Treasure is desirable, Loan is a dangerous play, but if even Gold is seen as an inconvenient stop card, then the risk of playing Loan almost vanishes. Kinda explains why other Treasures have fared so poorly; Donald was careful that alternate Treasure didn’t devalue base Treasure too much, but then the meta shifted away from Treasure anyways and some of the early alternate Treasures are a tough sell. Contraband and Cache are fun “bargain Gold,” but Gold is sometimes hard to take over another $5 Action, so they end up being “Gold at market price but with a penalty.”

Cards that rely on Gold or compete with it didn’t fare well either. Compare the high opportunity cost of Mint, Explorer, Mandarin or Harvest with cards like Specialist, Kiln, or Legionary. You used to have to do a lot of work to earn a free Gold or +$3; now it comes packaged with bonuses/other options rather than handicaps. Heck, Legionary actually incentivizes you to buy Gold despite also being a Gold.
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Holger

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2022, 04:13:02 am »
+1

Absolutely. There's only 2 reasons things should ever be considered for removal. The card is so weak that it just never gets bought by anyone other than complete beginners, and those beginners end up losing because they bought the card. Or the card has an issue of being too confusing or long to resolve in which case it's replaced with a better version of the same thing.
There's also "this card dominates in an unfun way when it's present", but Prosperity doesn't really suffer from that - King's Court and Goons may be dominant cards, but they make for interesting deck-building decisions.

Well, Goons can be somewhat unfun if one player gets attacked with it before being able to buy a copy themself.

But I agree with GendoIkari and Imrahil3 that cards should only be removed if they're really bad or unfun. I really can't see 9 current Prosperity cards fulfilling this. But maybe Prosperity gets new cards by increasing the total number of cards, without removing old ones, or removing fewer than are added? After all, the blurb posted above doesn't talk about removing cards, and newer "big" expansions tend to have more than 300 cards in total...
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spineflu

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2022, 08:13:33 am »
+1

I can't begin to imagine a Dominion in which King's Court has been removed.
i can. the card was always real good, but as the general strength level of the general action card increased, so too did the comparative strength of a/several KCs. The comparative strength of a KC now eclipses the "interesting decision of whether to scoop that or a try to speedrun provinces while your opponent does KCs", and replacing it with something that comes with a Snow Condition (ignoring amy +whatevers) or other limitation puts it back on a more equal footing that preserves the original race condition. It's a centralizing, ignore-at-your-own-peril card.
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Holger

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2022, 09:56:19 am »
+4

I can't begin to imagine a Dominion in which King's Court has been removed.
i can. the card was always real good, but as the general strength level of the general action card increased, so too did the comparative strength of a/several KCs. The comparative strength of a KC now eclipses the "interesting decision of whether to scoop that or a try to speedrun provinces while your opponent does KCs", and replacing it with something that comes with a Snow Condition (ignoring amy +whatevers) or other limitation puts it back on a more equal footing that preserves the original race condition. It's a centralizing, ignore-at-your-own-peril card.

I think a reasonable but simple nerf could be to just forbid KC to play another copy of itself. This would prevent stacking KC's, which is insanely stronger than e.g. stacking Throne Rooms (playing TR on TR only gives you + 1 Action compared with playing the 2 TR's separately, it doesn't increase the number of other Action cards you can play with it like KC-KC does).
« Last Edit: May 07, 2022, 09:57:30 am by Holger »
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segura

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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2022, 11:46:26 am »
+2

While KC is crazy strong, it leads to fun play. The reason for that is perhaps it being a combo card.
Goons on the other hand is, at least to me, no fun. Is it due to the Attack or it not being a combo card? No idea, it is just less fun than KC.
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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2022, 04:28:35 pm »
0

I really don't see how 9 cards could be removed. Of course there are lot of weak cards in Prosperity but the fact that they are weak doesn't make them uninteresting.
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Re: Prosperity 2E
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2022, 04:34:46 pm »
+5

I can't begin to imagine a Dominion in which King's Court has been removed.

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