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Author Topic: Fan Mechanics Week #33: Trial By Fire  (Read 4115 times)

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Aquila

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Fan Mechanics Week #33: Trial By Fire
« on: March 29, 2022, 06:58:50 am »
+8

Here's an idea that I've termed burn abilities. Only playable portrait cards can have burn abilities. While a card with one is in play, its burn ability can be activated at any time for an extra effect; in exchange, the card is set aside a la Encampment (no longer 'in play', but still there to help tracking) to be trashed at Clean-up. All these rules are indicated by a below-line flame symbol.
So like this:


Quote
Mining Village - Action, cost.
+1 Card
+2 Actions

-
[flame]: +
You could play this exactly like the official Mining Village, using the burn ability straight away. Or you could wait and see if that + will be necessary to hit the desired price point, using the burn ability at the Buy phase after your Treasures are played. It's strictly better than the official card, so costs .

Two design points that came to mind:
  • Putting a burn ability on a Duration expands the time window and available effect options nicely. Outside of turn, similarly to Reactions, the Duration will be set aside then trashed at the next Clean-up. Later turn on-play effects should always check the burn ability hasn't been used though, to keep tracking clean; so you choose between which effect you want. On the other hand, the non-Duration window limited to your turn can be simpler and more interesting.
  • The above example can feel a bit easy to play, and the official Mining Village is probably the more interesting card. So a good burn ability might be one that creates a challenging decision.
I haven't delved much into this design space myself, but I will do as I consider your entries.

As usual I won't require mock-ups, but if you want to, here is the generator set up with the flame symbol.

Please don't feel restricted to fiery, combustible flavour, the flame can just be a generic symbol on any theme of card.

I guess since the next weekly contest started just before this, I should extend the time a bit. I will close the contest for entries on Wednesday 6th April 02:30pm forum time.

Edit: other points raised;
  • A burn ability can be used in the middle of resolving the card's on-play effects; they carry on being resolved afterwards, and are not stopped (unless they're later turn Duration effects). So an on-play effect that checks it's in play or trashes itself for benefit won't work.
  • A Duration burn ability won't work with the trash-at-next-Clean-up rule, creating confusion.
  • Added making mandatory checking burn abilities haven't been used to on-play Duration effects.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2022, 08:46:47 am by Aquila »
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infangthief

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #33: Trial By Fire
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2022, 10:19:03 am »
+1

Nice idea. Let's try this out:

Quote
Slum $3 Action

+2 Actions
+1 Buy
----
[flame]: Discard your hand. +4 Cards.

EDITED to change cost $4->$3 and add +Buy.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2022, 04:51:47 am by infangthief »
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Augie279

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #33: Trial By Fire
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2022, 10:27:40 am »
+2


Another card in my long line of cards I think would be interesting as the only card that gives their resource on the board.
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emtzalex

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #33: Trial By Fire
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2022, 12:49:38 pm »
+5

My Submission:





Quote
Slush Fund • $5 • Action - Duration
Until you use this card's , at the start of each of your turns, if you have 2 Buys or fewer, +1 Buy.


: +$4
(This stays in play.)

                 

I really like this idea for a mechanic. There is a ton of possibilities and I can definitely see myself designing several cards. I have come up with one to submit, but I might replace it later.

For my submission I decided to take the whole Duration extends the time you can use it thing a step further, by making a Hireling style stays in play card. When played, Slush Fund is terminal and gives no immediate benefit. Thereafter, it provide a non-cumulative +1 Buy as long as you have one in play at the start of your turn until you use the burn ability. More importantly, it's burn effect will refund you most of its original cost, letting you hit much higher price point (but only once per copy).

You can burn Slush Fund the turn you use it, and may want to. But if you do, you don't get the +1 Buy that comes with it. The reason I wanted to make the +1 Buy non-cumulative is so a player can't (without some other source of +Buys) just put a bunch of these in play then rush Provinces all at once.

I kind of think of Slush Fund like a reverse Capital. Instead of a big payload one turn and a deficit later, this makes you pay first and get the benefit later. While that is (conceptually) worse, the burn ability means you can get Slush Fund's payout at any time, and don't need to rely on it coming out of your deck at the right time. Similarly, while it seemingly a 1-shot Wine Merchant for the same cost, this flexibility is a huge advantage over WM (which only pays out the turn you get it).

Originally I had it cost $4 and burn for $3, but I thought that was too good for a $4 card. At $5 you are (generally) foregoing some pretty strong Actions (that can be played ore than once). Plus, at $4 players could get it with gainers.

EDIT: It occurred to me that a player will keep getting the +1 Buy even after they trash their Slush Fund (and don't replace it). I'm probably going to change the card so that doesn't work, but I haven't decided that for sure.

EDIT 2: I changed it so it doesn't keep giving the +Buy after it is burned. I didn't make the condition that it be in play, because I think there is sort of a (rules lawyer-y) issue with a Duration card that's later turn abilities are conditional on it being in play (in that, the rule for Durations says they stay in play if they are going to do something; so at Clean up you'd ask "should this stay in play?" and answer "if it's going to do something" then ask "is it going to do something" and answer "if it stays in play", creating a sort of closed loop). If someone wants to trash it with Bonfire and keep getting the +1 Buy, that's Donald's problem.



Old version:


Quote
Slush Fund • $5 • Action - Duration
At the start of each of your turns, if you have 2 Buys or fewer, +1 Buy.[/font][/size]

: +$4
(This stays in play.)
                 
« Last Edit: March 30, 2022, 11:53:19 am by emtzalex »
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Carline

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #33: Trial By Fire
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2022, 07:57:17 pm »
+1

May you trigger burn abilitie during an action playing before it be fully resolved?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2022, 08:04:56 pm by Carline »
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Aquila

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #33: Trial By Fire
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2022, 03:54:48 am »
+3

May you trigger burn abilitie during an action playing before it be fully resolved?
Good question, I guess this would come down to how much tracking is an issue for people. If I were Donald having to consider everybody, I would say no for simplicity. Because we're fans, I might make things a bit more open:
A burn ability can be used in the middle of resolving the card's on-play effect, but the rest of the on-play effect is resolved afterward; it is not stopped. So I wouldn't try any "if this is in play" or "trash this. If you do" on-play effects on a card with a burn ability, as that would be unnecessarily confusing.

My Submission:





Quote
Slush Fund • $5 • Action - Duration
At the start of each of your turns, if you have 2 Buys or fewer, +1 Buy.


: +$4
(This stays in play.)

                 
...
EDIT: It occurred to me that a player will keep getting the +1 Buy even after they trash their Slush Fund (and don't replace it). I'm probably going to change the card so that doesn't work, but I haven't decided that for sure.
This would need an "if this is in play" clause, otherwise would be like an invisible Fair everyone has to remember they bought.


I did mention putting a burn ability on a Duration, but only had on-play Duration effects in mind. Sorry I wasn't clear. Duration burn abilities like this would twist the rules I described a bit, in that this would have to be both set aside and tracking the next-turn +Action at the same time, to be trashed at that turn's Clean-up. I suppose with the on-play not being a Duration tracking isn't too hard here; but it still wouldn't be a card in play for something like Emporium.
So, this does just about work and won't be disqualified, but I don't think I would rate it highly.

I've added these issues to the OP.
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emtzalex

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #33: Trial By Fire
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2022, 11:57:39 am »
+1

My Submission:





Quote
Slush Fund • $5 • Action - Duration
At the start of each of your turns, if you have 2 Buys or fewer, +1 Buy.


: +$4
(This stays in play.)

                 
...
EDIT: It occurred to me that a player will keep getting the +1 Buy even after they trash their Slush Fund (and don't replace it). I'm probably going to change the card so that doesn't work, but I haven't decided that for sure.
This would need an "if this is in play" clause, otherwise would be like an invisible Fair everyone has to remember they bought.

Thanks. I updated my submission (see above for full-size):



I went with "Until you use this card's " instead of while-in-play, as I think putting the latter on a Duration creates an unnecessary rules issue.
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scolapasta

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #33: Trial By Fire
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2022, 01:53:49 pm »
+2



Quote
Relocate - Action - $2
+1 Card
+1 Action
-
: +1 Action and +$1

A simple card, that just replaces itself, until you're ready to burn it. Sometimes you'll want to do that to make it a Village (hence the relocate theme), sometimes a Peddler. In a way, it's a Villager / Coffers combo.

Feedback always welcome. (and encouraged!)
« Last Edit: March 30, 2022, 02:23:44 pm by scolapasta »
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Carline

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #33: Trial By Fire
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2022, 07:32:21 pm »
+1



Quote
Relocate - Action - $2
+1 Card
+1 Action
-
: +1 Action and +$1

A simple card, that just replaces itself, until you're ready to burn it. Sometimes you'll want to do that to make it a Village (hence the relocate theme), sometimes a Peddler. In a way, it's a Villager / Coffers combo.

Feedback always welcome. (and encouraged!)

I think it gives you once pratically what Coin of the Realm could give you every other turn. I suggest add something to on play effect.
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Aquila

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #33: Trial By Fire
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2022, 08:33:48 am »
+1

I went with "Until you use this card's " instead of while-in-play, as I think putting the latter on a Duration creates an unnecessary rules issue.
This is an excellent fix for all forms of Durations! I didn't twig that they could all be set aside and tracking next turn effects at once, but this solves the problem neatly. I'll add this to the OP:
If you make a Duration card with a burn ability, always make later turn effects check the hasn't been used.
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Xen3k

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #33: Trial By Fire
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2022, 06:38:02 pm »
+4



Quote
Lumber Pile - $5
Treasure
$2
+1 Buy
----
§: Trash up to 4 cards from your hand.

Simple Silver+ with a Chapel effect if you choose to burn it. Tried it with a Bonfire effect instead, but it seemed a little too weak. This also makes you hold back Coppers if you want to trash them. Was going to originally call it "Chamber Pot", but having that act as a Silver just didn't seem right. Feedback is welcome.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2022, 09:20:39 am by Xen3k »
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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #33: Trial By Fire
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2022, 10:54:18 pm »
0

If a card has a burn ability and is also a Duration card with a normal next-turn effect, can you use the burn ability when it's someone else's turn?
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Timinou

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #33: Trial By Fire
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2022, 12:50:55 am »
+4



Quote from: Overgrown City
Action-Victory - $4
You may trash a card from your hand.
§: +2 Cards and +2 Actions
-
Worth 1VP per 3 Victory cards in the trash.

You can burn down the forest to reveal a Lost City...
« Last Edit: April 01, 2022, 01:13:33 am by Timinou »
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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #33: Trial By Fire
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2022, 02:19:14 am »
+1

Quote
Witch Trials
$5 - Action - Attack
+$2
+1 Buy
Each other player gains a Curse.
-
Burn: Return up to 2 Curses from your hand or from the trash to the Supply.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2022, 02:20:49 am by LibraryAdventurer »
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Aquila

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #33: Trial By Fire
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2022, 04:19:52 pm »
0

If a card has a burn ability and is also a Duration card with a normal next-turn effect, can you use the burn ability when it's someone else's turn?
If by normal next-turn effect you mean not having "...if you didn't use this card's " then I can't see how it could work cleanly. So I'd think it just can't be done.

If you meant like Wharf instead of Hireling, then yes, for the turn it's out it can work, to be trashed at the next Clean-up.
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Joxeft

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #33: Trial By Fire
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2022, 01:56:46 pm »
+1


Feedback appreciated. Nice big hand killer.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2022, 01:58:10 pm by Joxeft »
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Joxeft

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #33: Trial By Fire
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2022, 02:20:24 pm »
0

It is a strong handsize Attack, stronger than Legionary ... but do you really want to blow up your terminal draw for it?
Its not terminal draw however I agree but it really depends because it makes your hands biger.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2022, 02:32:12 pm by Joxeft »
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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #33: Trial By Fire
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2022, 05:18:21 pm »
+1

It is a strong handsize Attack, stronger than Legionary ... but do you really want to blow up your terminal draw for it?
I think it could also use a thematic improvement. Is there a reason an assassin draws cards? Gives you a buy? (Other cards with this theme, thief, saboteur, cutpurse, etc., do none of these things). An assassin presumably kills for money, and so the card's benefit should be in nabbing treasure, or something along those lines. Perhaps be less concerned about filling design space, and more on coming up with a thematically tight and innovative card.
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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #33: Trial By Fire
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2022, 02:52:10 am »
+1



my submission: A weak village with a Burn ability that enables you to get another turn, turning it into a smithy or a bustling village depending on choice.

I still feel like its missing something, but im not sure what.
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UltimateGeek

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #33: Trial By Fire
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2022, 08:41:10 am »
0

County Fair - a rotating split pile



$2 Action: Park & Ride
+1 Card
You may trash up to two cards from your hand.
You may rotate the County Fairs.

$3 Action - County Fair: Ticket Booth
+1 Action
+$1
You may spend $1 to gain a Treasure costing up to $5.

$4 Treasure - County Fair: Ride Ticket
+$1
+$1 per differently named Victory card in the trash.

$5 Victory - Action - County Fair: State Fair
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Buy per differently named Victory card in the trash.
-
1%
§: + 3%


v1.1 EDIT:
  • Park & Ride - Made it optionally trash two cards because that's better than one. Added +1 Card to help line up better with Estates. Made it terminal to balance its power per cost.
  • Ticket Booth - Swapped +1 Card with +1 Action since that was removed from Park & Ride.
  • State Fair - Added +1 Card, +1 Action, to increase its power.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2022, 08:17:27 am by UltimateGeek »
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emtzalex

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #33: Trial By Fire
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2022, 12:51:25 pm »
+1

It is a strong handsize Attack, stronger than Legionary ... but do you really want to blow up your terminal draw for it?
I think it could also use a thematic improvement. Is there a reason an assassin draws cards? Gives you a buy? (Other cards with this theme, thief, saboteur, cutpurse, etc., do none of these things). An assassin presumably kills for money, and so the card's benefit should be in nabbing treasure, or something along those lines. Perhaps be less concerned about filling design space, and more on coming up with a thematically tight and innovative card.

Highwayman gives +Cards on a subsequent turn (as does Warlord and Haunted Woods).
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UltimateGeek

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #33: Trial By Fire
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2022, 08:16:05 am »
0

County Fair - a rotating split pile
Park & Ride is far too similar to Student.
Ticket Booth looks very weak. Terminal sifting is not really a thing with only 1 Card and it does nothing in Kingdom without other Alt-Treasures for a long time (takes a long time until Ride Ticket is more than just a Silver).
I like State Fair though, that is some cool Forager style interaction. But the on-play effect has to be stronger.

Thank you for the feedback, segura.  8)
  • Park & Ride - Made it optionally trash two cards because that's better than one. Added +1 Card to help line up better with Estates. Made it terminal to balance its power per cost.
  • Ticket Booth - Simply adding +1 Action would make it more powerful than the same cost Oasis. Swapped +1 Card with +1 Action since that was removed from Park & Ride.
  • State Fair - Added +1 Card, +1 Action, to increase its power.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2022, 08:37:25 am by UltimateGeek »
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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #33: Trial By Fire
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2022, 10:49:58 am »
+2



Quote
Salt Collector • $4 • Action
If there are any empty supply piles, +1 Card and +1 Action.

Trash up to 2 cards from your hand. Gain a copy of any Action trashed this way.
-
§: Trash an Action from the Supply per Action in the Trash.
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Aquila

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #33: Trial By Fire
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2022, 02:13:21 pm »
+2

24 hours left
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Aquila

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Re: Fan Mechanics Week #33: Trial By Fire
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2022, 05:38:24 pm »
+4

Results

In my exploration of this mechanic, I echo emtzalex in feeling like there's a lot that could be done with it. Your ideas show diversity and that often simplicity works well. Putting burn abilities on Durations at first felt like more possibilities, but now it doesn't seem like too many more. Maybe instead of trashing the card at the next Clean-up, trashing it at your next Clean-up would have been better, doing something like turn the card diagonally or upside down for tracking?
I also see that this is similar to other fan mechanics on the forum, like LFN's Activation type. Incidentally, my inspiration came from Star Realms; cards that trash (scrap) themselves for extra benefit is a central mechanic there.

And that's my introductory spiel.

infangthief
Quote
Slum - Action, cost.
+2 Actions
+1 Buy

-
: discard your hand. +4 Cards.

Non-drawing Village with +Buy that can be burned for mild draw-to-X.
+: the hand change is effective on a burn ability; it's a choice, and doing it later than when played can make more draw. Losing a Village and a +Buy can make a challenging decision.
-: Drawing a poor hand with the burn can feel awful.
Overview: a useful package for engines or big money (burning while playing Treasures to draw more). Likeable, but possibly it's worth .
Augie279Smithy that can be burned for now and next turn Village.
+: Draw that burns for +Actions is a simple and effective use of the mechanic.
-: As already mentioned, tracking the next turn burn effect is awkward.
Overview: if the gave +2 Villagers instead, that might make a compelling card.
emtzalex
Fair as a Hireling variant that can be turned off for a refund.
+: Carrying a lump of money over to a future turn is a good way to use the burn mechanic, being limited to cards in the Supply unlike Coffers.
-: nothing wrong really, I'm just not too excited by this.
Overview: very much a plan ahead card, since it's not the best for early +Buys. Because it's a , I guess players will almost always get this thinking ahead to Provinces/relevant win condition, and not to building. At giving less , it may help build too. I think this is what's boring me.
scolapastaA Coffers and Villager in one, as a card.
+: very simple, it can be used just like a Villager and/or a Coffers.
-: perhaps not too interesting because this almost already exists in more flexible forms; a Villager can let terminal draw be played first in a turn, but this needs to be played before terminal draw to work.
Overview: it can exist, a that never hurts the deck, but it won't add much excitement.
Xen3kOne-shot trasher and payload in one.
+: the adds an alternative early game function to an otherwise mid to late game card; a nice use of the mechanic. It has pleasing niches over other trashers.
-: with payload including +Buy and mass trashing, this may dictate the way every game it's in is played. With no other trashing, / openings are at a huge advantage.
Overview: perhaps a cheaper variant trashing fewer cards and giving would be less dictating and be accessible to everyone regardless of opening.
TiminouEngine support that may become alt VP later.
+: A tempting trasher that can disappear when it's done or if the burn boost is needed now, that can also have strong reason to keep around. It makes interesting decisions while being interactive.
-: the VP strength is affected by the number of players in the game, especially without Shelters.
Overview: somehow make the VP work around player number, and this could be interesting.
LibraryAdventurer
Quote
Witch Trials - Action Attack, cost.
+1 Buy
+

Each other player gains a Curse.
-
: return up to 2 Curses from your hand or the trash to the Supply.

A curser that can keep the pressure on a long time. Burning during the on-play effect could be relevant as Curses can be pulled out from the trash to give out should the pile be empty.
+: It's a much gentler Witch that has an interesting choice with its . Having to trash the card to put Curses back into the Supply stops cursing going on indefinitely.
-: behaviour will be a bit different with number of players; 2 returned Curses will be given out in one attack in 3-player, but not in 2.
Overview: I started out not liking this - returning Curses never seemed doable - but I've warmed to it. It appears to be a high skill curser, which not many of the official ones are, involving thought about having the fewest Curses long term.
JoxeftNext-turn hand size increaser or one-shot Attack with 3-card Minion. I assume the next turn +2 Cards +1 Buy first checks the hasn't been used.
+: The on-play can defend against the attack, if one doesn't use the .
-: the attack can be used politically in 3+ players; one can wait until the player to the left has had their turn. Yes their next turn will be weaker, but they may not get a next turn.
Overview: this card helped me see that a Duration attack isn't safe ground.
fika monsterWeak engine assistance that burns to grant the Cavalry effect.
+: There are several fun combos; like gaining and buying things to the top of the deck, drawing them with the and having the +Actions to play them.
-: nothing much can be wrong with this, only its similarity to Cavalry. Even then, the timing of the return to Action phase creates different play.
Overview: safe and interesting.
UltimateGeek
Rotating split pile focused on the powerful top trasher and the bottom VP card. As yet, I've had no play experience with rotating piles.
+: scaling payload in Ride Ticket could be interesting in a rotating pile.
-: The best Treasure Ticket Booth can get is often Silver; it helps to patch up economy loss from Park & Ride trashing, but is still a weak . There's no urgent rush to trash the State Fairs since they're cantrips, so Ride Ticket won't often do much.
Overview: Park & Ride is very desirable, so these County Fairs will likely rotate. Ticket Booth could easily be ignored unless a nice Treasure is in the game. Ride Ticket could become a cheap Gold later, and until then will be skipped. State Fair is a good pick-up worth contesting, an easier Distant Lands.
So, as is, the game flow with this pile seems quite scripted, and the two middle cards could be strengthened with more independent use.
spinefluDeck thinner that can be used later as a Supply emptier.
+: it makes large on the unconventional way to end the game while providing a constant self benefit.
-: it could put huge pressure on with explosive emptying potential. Several factors can make it crazy: more players; presence of certain cards like Cultist or Necromancer; if this is the only trasher.
Overview: a radical fan card that may spice up a few games, but I wouldn't think too many. Sometimes this won't be welcome on the table.

Based on what I think could be added to the official game the best, the shortlist:
Slum, Overgrown City, Witch Trials, Second Chance.

Now this is tough between my top two here. But I will say...

Runner-up: Witch Trials by LibraryAdventurer

Winner: Second Chance by fika monster

Second Chance demonstrates very nicely what a can do. It has different possible functions depending on when during the turn it's used, with a variable top part to help.

fika monster, the floor's all yours.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2022, 05:55:26 pm by Aquila »
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