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Author Topic: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)  (Read 188980 times)

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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1050 on: December 27, 2015, 03:10:57 pm »
0

Thanks for testing the cards, guys! Certainly I can believe that Committee is too weak on the average board. Two options I can think of there are:

• Requiring you to reveal a Duchy from your hand, rather than discard it.
• Up it to +3 Cards and raise the price to $5.

Or both. Of course I can also change what the options are. I do like having the vanilla bonus of +Cards, since you might draw a Duchy and it helps a lot of the potential options (+1 Action, trash a card, etc.).
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1051 on: December 27, 2015, 03:23:43 pm »
+2

I'm not saying it's to weak, although I think having you reveal, rather than discard, a Duchy would also be fine. I'm against raising the cost to $5. It's good enough as a potential Lab and with revealing a Duchy it should work well enough in engines.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1052 on: December 29, 2015, 07:13:29 pm »
+2

I didn't notice the "up to" on Wishing Ring. Making it a Silver is probably fine in that case as its going to be used quite sparingly (probably to help with greening most of all) rather than every time it's played.

I think the "procession" effect is more interesting. An idea that could be the "procession" to Scheme's "throne room" (and General's "King's Court")

Royal Assent
Treasure - $2
Worth $1
You may trash an Action you have in play. Gain an Action card costing exactly $1 more than it, putting it on top of your deck.

(Exactly $1 more so it can't be used to run down piles, and $2 because it's far more niche and non spammable)

Up to your design philosophy how often you want any given card to be useful. I've grown to love cards that are only occasionally very good like Coppersmith but they can be a hard sell. Wishing Ring (Silver, "up to", and no self trashing) has something that looks like it could be useful in most games (turning $4 actions into Duchies as you're finishing up), but also has more interesting uses, and at the very least you've got a Silver so you never have huge buyers remorse.

Using the Scheme wording to make it an action (something simple like a Peddler or even a Village) might also work well
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1053 on: January 09, 2016, 02:15:43 pm »
+1

Two games last night with Co0kieL0rd, using his cards, my cards, and published cards.

The first game had Wanderer, Charlatan, Profiteer (w/Armament), and Study.

There were no extra buys and Charlatan's attack never mattered, but we nevertheless bought out the Charlatans because they had combos with Study and Armament. So uh, not a complete loss there. All ten Wanderers were also gained. I opened Orphanage/Horn of Plenty and we both had Benefits, so Wanderer was a nice pickup when we needed a $2 card. I believe we each got a Profiteer, although I regretted mine, since I was primarily going for a Study deck. Finally, Study itself combos nicely with Orphanage and CHarlatan. Often we were able to get 3 cards out of Study, though once we played a Wanderer, that was it for Study's usefulness that turn. Still it seems strong overall. If it's too strong, probably I will reduce it to +$2, but I'll need to play several more games to get a handle on it.

The second game had Dignitary, Bladesmith, Fund, and Wheelwright.

It was a close game despite me losing the Curse split 8 to 2. I had a couple of Dignitaries that helped me trash a few Curses, and were otherwise good for helping me line up my terminal Actions with my villages. I am torn on whether I prefer this new reaction (Once per turn, when another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal a Dignitary from your hand, to trash a card from your hand) or the old one (When another player plays an Attack card, you may discard this, to trash a card from your hand, then draw 2 cards). I'm leaning slightly toward the old version. Bladesmith was good. I like that it's terminal, but I wonder if it's too weak now. It certainly seems weak once the Curses are gone, and potentially even before that. I bought one Fund, but never had a good reason to activate it. Co0kieL0rd got at least 2 Wheelwrights, and I gained Coppers to hand pretty frequently near the end of the game. Fund and Wheelwright still seem good, though Fund may someday die (*sniff*) because it's not bought terribly often.
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minovsky

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1054 on: January 16, 2016, 11:06:14 am »
+1

Kingdom card .xcf documents!

FloodgateCombo.xcf
2 Auction
2 Redistrict
3 Floodgate
4 Craftsman
4 Terrace
5 Axeman
5 Cathedral
5 Conclave

MillTownCombo.xcf
2 Clerk
3 Gambler
3 Mill Town
4 Committee
4 Dignitary
5 Barrister
5 Barter
5 Wheelwright

GeneralCombo.xcf
2 Jubilee
3 Convoy
3 Refurbish
4 Profiteer
4 Vendor
5 Barracks (put Conscripts in hand version)
5 Fund
5 General

i am interested in printing this set. is this *.xcf still the most updated? (or is there an updated pdf?) i am sure this gets ask a million times so pls excuse me.
and pls pardon my ignorance, is there a way to see the history of a post so I can follow what are the edits made to the set?
thanks and can't wait to try this!
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1055 on: January 16, 2016, 11:20:47 am »
0

No, those are quite old. I'll post again today with more recent versions.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1056 on: January 16, 2016, 12:01:48 pm »
+1

Now is a bit of a transitional period for Enterprise; many of these cards have less testing than I would like. But in order to have a good mix of cards, I put in some of those newer ones as well.

You need GIMP to open and print these, I believe. It's freeware, which you can find here: http://www.gimp.org/

The important thing to remember is that, when you print these, set the height of the image to 236mm (and the width should automatically become 182.09mm or thereabouts). You should be able to do so in your printer dialog, and that seems to be the most reliable place to set it.

EDIT: Print just one test page first to make sure the cards are the size of actual Dominion cards! If not, you can adjust the printing parameters accordingly.

1Basic.xcf has 8 cards that don't use Trade tokens (Fund, Redistrict, Dignitary, Wanderer, General, Gambler, Charlatan, and Harbor). You'll need to print 10 copies of it so that you'll have 10 of each card.

2Tokens.xcf has7 cards that use Trade tokens (Jubilee, Convoy, Tinker, Terrace, Trade Goods, Racketeer, and Vendor), plus one extra card (Wheelwright). You'll need to print 10 copies of it so that you'll have 10 of each card.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2016, 12:08:39 pm by LastFootnote »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1057 on: January 16, 2016, 12:07:35 pm »
+1

3aMisc.xcf has the two cards that use Armaments (Profiteer and Bladesmith), so you'll need to print out 3b as well if you want to use them. It also has two other cards (Study and Auction). You'll need to print only 5 copies of it so that you'll have 10 of each card.

3bArmamentFloodgate.xcf has Armaments (for use with Bladesmith and Profiteer) and Floodgate (a Kingdom card). You'll need to print only 3 copies of it so that you'll have 12 of each card.

4Outtakes.xcf has four cards that are no longer in Enterprise due to not fitting in, etc., but have been popular cards that you may enjoy (Mill Town, Refurbish, Clerk, and Conclave). If you want to use these, you'll need to print only 5 copies of it so that you'll have 10 of each card.

Please let me know if you need any help or if there's a particular card you had your eye on that isn't in these files. Thanks!
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minovsky

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1058 on: January 18, 2016, 09:26:05 am »
+1

You need GIMP to open and print these, I believe. It's freeware, which you can find here: http://www.gimp.org/

The important thing to remember is that, when you print these, set the height of the image to 236mm (and the width should automatically become 182.09mm or thereabouts). You should be able to do so in your printer dialog, and that seems to be the most reliable place to set it.

thanks! this is my first time using gimp, pls bear with me.. when you say set the height, do you mean go to "Image" then "Print Size"?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1059 on: January 18, 2016, 09:46:10 am »
+1

You need GIMP to open and print these, I believe. It's freeware, which you can find here: http://www.gimp.org/

The important thing to remember is that, when you print these, set the height of the image to 236mm (and the width should automatically become 182.09mm or thereabouts). You should be able to do so in your printer dialog, and that seems to be the most reliable place to set it.

thanks! this is my first time using gimp, pls bear with me.. when you say set the height, do you mean go to "Image" then "Print Size"?

That used to work for me, but for later versions of GIMP, my printer ignored those settings. I had to set them in the printer's dialog itself. So when I went to Print, there's a place for image size settings and I set it there. You can try "Image" then "Print Size" and see if it prints the right size, but if it doesn't, you'll need to adjust the settings when you actually print. And those print settings are different for each printer.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 09:47:15 am by LastFootnote »
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1060 on: January 21, 2016, 10:54:05 pm »
+1

Would you be willing to update the first page of the thread to show the current version of the cards AND any cards that were once in the set but removed due to non-play balance issues?
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1061 on: January 22, 2016, 03:41:57 pm »
0

Would you be willing to update the first page of the thread to show the current version of the cards AND any cards that were once in the set but removed due to non-play balance issues?

Done.

I played part of a 4-player game with Racketeer today and it was very clear that it was just making the game awful. So we quit and put in another card instead. I will try a version that reveals the top 2 cards of each other player's deck, so it'll be like a cheap Dame Sylvia, but with the Trade token protection. I will also decide on a version of Wishing Ring to try, which I will name "Trade Goods" (having renamed Trade Goods to "Stockpile"). Until then there is no version of either card in the OP. Likewise, I'd like to try Committee at least once before adding it to the OP.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2016, 03:43:12 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1062 on: January 22, 2016, 04:18:10 pm »
+1

Two Intrigue/Enterprise games today.

• Redistrict wasn't a big player. I worry that the $0 price tag makes it unattractive. "This costs $0, it must be weak." But probably I try this version a while longer. It's been fine in other games.

• The new Auction (with Reaction) was popular. Early on I used it to discard 3 Estates after playing Harbor, which was nice. It was a Minion game and the Reaction got used a lot. The top three of the final four scores were 32, 31, and 30. The winning player had zero Minions. I (at 31 VP) had three, and I think the 3rd place player had 6 of them.

• Jubilee was bought a bit, despite there being a lack of +Buy in the kingdom. Seaway was available, but only one player (the winning player) bought it. I hadn't printed out the new version, so we were using the version that went back to its pile immediately, but that wasn't a factor this game.

• Floodgate was mostly bought toward the end of its game, though I got one once earlier to put a dead Nobles into my next hand, along with a Copper.

• One new player liked Gambler. Man it remains a popular card. Guess I'm keeping it around for a while.

• Tinker seemed good and was popular, though I didn't get any myself, choosing to trash with Dignitaries (it was the Minion game, so no shortage of Attacks played).

• Dignitary still seems fine in its current state. I briefly tried a [once-per-turn trash a hand card] version of the reaction, but I like this [discard this, trash a hand card, draw 2] version fine and I think it's less confusing.

• My first IRL game with Stockpile. Seemed strong, but of course it's a Copper when you're not paying a token. I think it's stronger than e.g. Talisman, but that's totally fine. It's definitely not strictly better. It got weaker once the Nobles ran out.

• Harbor seems solid, and that's the best thing I can say about it. I don't think most people find it exciting, but it pays the bills, so to speak. If I eventually have enough good cards, probably I replace it someday.

• Vendor got bought. One of my regular playtesters still thinks it's no good without other ways to amass tokens, but man I like it fine so far.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1063 on: January 22, 2016, 07:54:13 pm »
+2

Whenever I played a game with Asper or Fragasnap recently we also included some Enterprise cards so I got a lot of insight into many cards from your set. I'll try to recollect my memories here:

If you want cursing, Bladesmith gets the job done but I think it compares poorly to other cursers due to its delayed cursing. Amassing Armaments is probably usually not what you want in a game. It worked out fine in our latest games because those were using other attack cards. Bladesmith really benefits from those, otherwise it seems a little weak to me.

I already mentioned this but Committee is a very interesting card with some strategical depth. You should give it a try!

Convoy was used in one game for great benefit by Asper. But he might be able to tell your more about it.

We have been using Dignitary with the "once per turn" clause because that's the version you gave me. The reaction was used once, I think. The action is good as-is.

Floodgate is awesome and gets used frequently.

Profiteer seems quite good. We had some games where your early decision-making revolved around Profiteer, one where Gold was unattractive and one where giving other players Armaments was beneficial. This was due to other, very particular fan cards though.

I don't know why the price should play any role in deciding whether you buy Redistrict or not. When you want a trash/remodel-type of card you get it. Maybe your game didn't have the right board for it. In our game we bought several of them.

Tinker is great and the Trade token effect often useful.

Trade Goods (Stockpile) seems pretty good, way better than I expected.

Wishing Ring (Trade Goods) is even better! Although we had two games with it that had other cards than Gold costing $6 you wanted. In that case it's very good but should also do fine in other games.

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1064 on: January 23, 2016, 04:37:24 pm »
+1

I made a new Racketeer to try. Here's the image, but I'm going to test it before putting it in the OP.

« Last Edit: January 23, 2016, 04:38:55 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1065 on: January 31, 2016, 01:53:17 am »
+2

Two Enterprise/Empires games yesterday (nice to finally be able to say that). And also some Intrigue/Enterprise games on Tuesday.

Wanderer: As I feared, I am the only one who is buying this in my real-life games. Although in an online game with Co0kieL0rd (and I think Asper too), we all bought it. Anyway, I won the IRL games in which I bought Wanderer, so it doesn't seem too weak. But if there are enough games where nobody wants it, I'll have to cut it.

Bladesmith: I'm sure Barracks was this way too, but man, Bladesmith hands out Curses fast. There's a pretty big delay before it does, which may or may not be enough to save it. I'm optimistic.

Conclave: I finally tested the version that puts the undrawn cards back on your deck (which you can see in the OP), and I'm actually pretty optimistic! It stood toe-to-toe with other card-drawing, but wasn't dominating. Often I had to put back a Copper or Province, and occasionally I put back a Gold. I'm glad I tested it, and will soon be moving it from the Outtakes section of the OP to the Kingdom Cards section!

Lots of other old cards still seem good. Jubilee, Gambler, Tinker, and Wheelwright are still loved (by some). Terrace, Fund, and Vendor at least got bought.

I think I need to rename Wheelwright to something that links thematically to the Copper-gaining penalty. Right now it's too easy to forget that part is there.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1066 on: February 02, 2016, 01:12:08 pm »
+5

Two changes:

• Conclave is now back in the set, at least for now. The new version that puts back the cards you didn't draw seems promising after a few games. I also reworded it a bit so that I could use a larger font.

• I've decided to move Fund's +1 Buy to the top, such that you always get +1 Buy when you play it, whether or not you trash it. It just gets bought too seldom in my games, and this change is meant to make it look more attractive. I wanted to keep the +1 Buy in the one-shot portion so that you'd have another reason to activate that ability, but I'm hoping the +$2 will be enough of a reason. I guess we'll see.

« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 01:13:33 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1067 on: February 02, 2016, 04:30:07 pm »
+1

I made a new Racketeer to try. Here's the image, but I'm going to test it before putting it in the OP.



So I belatedly realized that—using this wording—Racketeer gives the victim a Trade token in the event that they reveal no trashable cards. This was not the intent. Here then is a new version that fixes that. It works differently, since a card is trashed and then re-gained, rather than just being discarded. That makes it interact with on-gain triggers and on-trash triggers, which I think is all to the good.

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Nic

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1068 on: February 02, 2016, 09:42:36 pm »
+3

Played a few games with some of the new cards in the last few days. Now that I'm living at home, I can rope my mom and brother into a three-player game without too much difficulty. Even better, a UPS store opened up down the street, and my mom has paper cutters and corner clippers, so I can get new cards ready with very little work.

I printed out Auction, Charlatan, Study, Tinker, Trade Goods Stockpile, Wanderer, and all the Armaments cards, and tomorrow I think I'll put in an order for Dignitary and Harbor, and replace my copies of Redistrict and Conclave with the up-to-date versions.

I wrote up some vague thoughts on what I saw in those games, but my main takeaway was that it's about time to drop '(Beta)' from the title. You have 25+ good-to-great cards to choose from; what's left is deciding which of them will make up the set. I admit I'd rather see what your next boardgame project will be, for purely selfish reasons. Honestly, I'd be willing to PnPlay-test any goofy idea that came into your head, based solely on the strength of these cards.
  • The Armament cards were great. A serious attack, but because of the gating, it doesn't feel oppressive. My brother generally vetoes any cursing attacks, but he didn't mind this one so much.
  • Profiteer was a big hit. In one game, we managed to run down the curses with Charlatan as the only other attack card, and everybody opened Profiteer in the next one. With everyone getting Golds on their deck, the game was over before very many curses came out.
  • Does General topdeck Duration cards? We weren't sure. (Also, we were playing with the version that topdecked on trash, and I was having entirely too much fun with General/Gambler.)
  • Wanderer was out in three or four games, and it was bought pretty often. Of course, I was trying to showcase these cards, so I didn't want to put out other terminal draw.
  • We weren't able to parse Study. Does 'first do this' mean 'when you play a card, draw up to 5 before resolving the first line of the card'? Or does it mean 'when you would play an action, draw to 5 and then take the card out of your hand'? I skimmed over the earlier posts and it sounds like the second interpretation is correct,  If your deck is full of cantrips, it would be substantially worse than a gold.
  • Everybody loved how Tinker combos with other trade token cards, especially the cheap ones. Trash two Estates, pay a token, gain a Terrace, regain the token.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1069 on: February 02, 2016, 09:59:07 pm »
0

Nice! Thanks for the testing and feedback, Nic!

General absolutely topdecks Duration cards. Conveniently, it stays in play as long as the Duration card does, in order to track that you played it twice. I'm glad you like the old version, but I'm probably not going back to it. It was just too crazy to track with Gambler, etc.!

Your first interpretation of Study was actually correct. You play an Action card from your hand, then draw until you have 5 cards in hand, then follow the Action card's instructions. It's worded like the Adventures bonus tokens. I was strongly considering adding an explanatory parenthetical to Study, and your comment pushed me over the edge toward doing it. How does this sound?

"During your next turn, when you play an Action card, first draw until you have 5 cards in hand (before following its instructions)."

Would that have been enough to make it clear, or should I word it differently?

I wonder if Profiteer makes games too fast. Well, I'll test it more. I'm glad it was so popular!

I don't quite have 25+ cards in the set yet, unless you're including the outtakes. But I can't just include the outtakes; I need more $5 cards! Having Conclave back in the set proper does help with that goal.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1070 on: February 02, 2016, 10:39:58 pm »
0

Profiteer was a big hit. In one game, we managed to run down the curses with Charlatan as the only other attack card, and everybody opened Profiteer in the next one. With everyone getting Golds on their deck, the game was over before very many curses came out.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but it seems like when you played with Charlatan you were assuming players have to spend their spare buys on curses when they could just get coppers as their worst choice.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1071 on: February 02, 2016, 10:55:50 pm »
+1

Profiteer was a big hit. In one game, we managed to run down the curses with Charlatan as the only other attack card, and everybody opened Profiteer in the next one. With everyone getting Golds on their deck, the game was over before very many curses came out.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but it seems like when you played with Charlatan you were assuming players have to spend their spare buys on curses when they could just get coppers as their worst choice.

I believe he was referring to the Curses given out by the Armaments. He mentions Charlatans because they expedite Armamaments by virtue of being Attack cards.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1072 on: February 02, 2016, 11:20:14 pm »
+1

General absolutely topdecks Duration cards. Conveniently, it stays in play as long as the Duration card does, in order to track that you played it twice. I'm glad you like the old version, but I'm probably not going back to it. It was just too crazy to track with Gambler, etc.!
Oh, I agree. I probably won't spend money to reprint it, but it was clearly overpowered. From playing with it, I got the feeling that its existence would actively prevent someone from designing strong one-shots.
Your first interpretation of Study was actually correct. You play an Action card from your hand, then draw until you have 5 cards in hand, then follow the Action card's instructions. It's worded like the Adventures bonus tokens. I was strongly considering adding an explanatory parenthetical to Study, and your comment pushed me over the edge toward doing it. How does this sound?

"During your next turn, when you play an Action card, first draw until you have 5 cards in hand (before following its instructions)."

Would that have been enough to make it clear, or should I word it differently?

It'd probably help, but the real bone of contention was whether you drew before or after the card left your hand. Its a meaningless difference, but ". . . when you play an Action card, first draw until you have 5 cards in hand, then follow its instructions" sounds better to me. I'll ask my brother what wording he prefers.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1073 on: February 03, 2016, 06:00:06 am »
+1

General absolutely topdecks Duration cards. Conveniently, it stays in play as long as the Duration card does, in order to track that you played it twice. I'm glad you like the old version, but I'm probably not going back to it. It was just too crazy to track with Gambler, etc.!
Oh, I agree. I probably won't spend money to reprint it, but it was clearly overpowered. From playing with it, I got the feeling that its existence would actively prevent someone from designing strong one-shots.
Your first interpretation of Study was actually correct. You play an Action card from your hand, then draw until you have 5 cards in hand, then follow the Action card's instructions. It's worded like the Adventures bonus tokens. I was strongly considering adding an explanatory parenthetical to Study, and your comment pushed me over the edge toward doing it. How does this sound?

"During your next turn, when you play an Action card, first draw until you have 5 cards in hand (before following its instructions)."

Would that have been enough to make it clear, or should I word it differently?

It'd probably help, but the real bone of contention was whether you drew before or after the card left your hand. Its a meaningless difference, but ". . . when you play an Action card, first draw until you have 5 cards in hand, then follow its instructions" sounds better to me. I'll ask my brother what wording he prefers.

That difference is as significant as the extra card you draw from playing a Laboratory versus playing a Page. If Study drew one fewer card per Action card you played (because it would still be in your hand while you draw), it would generally be much weaker.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1074 on: February 03, 2016, 12:12:07 pm »
0

General absolutely topdecks Duration cards. Conveniently, it stays in play as long as the Duration card does, in order to track that you played it twice. I'm glad you like the old version, but I'm probably not going back to it. It was just too crazy to track with Gambler, etc.!
Oh, I agree. I probably won't spend money to reprint it, but it was clearly overpowered. From playing with it, I got the feeling that its existence would actively prevent someone from designing strong one-shots.
Your first interpretation of Study was actually correct. You play an Action card from your hand, then draw until you have 5 cards in hand, then follow the Action card's instructions. It's worded like the Adventures bonus tokens. I was strongly considering adding an explanatory parenthetical to Study, and your comment pushed me over the edge toward doing it. How does this sound?

"During your next turn, when you play an Action card, first draw until you have 5 cards in hand (before following its instructions)."

Would that have been enough to make it clear, or should I word it differently?

It'd probably help, but the real bone of contention was whether you drew before or after the card left your hand. Its a meaningless difference, but ". . . when you play an Action card, first draw until you have 5 cards in hand, then follow its instructions" sounds better to me. I'll ask my brother what wording he prefers.

That difference is as significant as the extra card you draw from playing a Laboratory versus playing a Page. If Study drew one fewer card per Action card you played (because it would still be in your hand while you draw), it would generally be much weaker.

It would be one card weaker overall (per turn), but I think that's it. That's still really significant, though.
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