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Author Topic: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)  (Read 191457 times)

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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1025 on: December 17, 2015, 06:23:08 pm »
+1

I guess Wishing Ring could say: "When you play this, choose a card you have in play. If you discard it from play this turn, trash it and gain a card costing up to $1 more than it."

It's still more words, but probably it's clearer. It's mostly functionally the same, though if you play e.g. Bank after it, you can't upgrade the Bank.

I was indeed misguided by Wishing Ring's current wording so I welcome this suggestion. With those few cards where play oder matters you'd just have to be more careful.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1026 on: December 17, 2015, 07:00:30 pm »
+2

Couldn't Wishing Ring just do its effect when it itself is discarded from play? Like:

"When you discard this from play, you may trash it or a card you have in play. Gain a card costing $1 more than the trashed card."

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1027 on: December 17, 2015, 07:03:32 pm »
+1

Couldn't Wishing Ring just do its effect when it itself is discarded from play? Like:

"When you discard this from play, you may trash it or a card you have in play. Gain a card costing $1 more than the trashed card."

1) Counterfeit can't double that.

2) This recreates the whole duration-tracking problem.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1028 on: December 17, 2015, 07:24:44 pm »
+1

Couldn't Wishing Ring just do its effect when it itself is discarded from play? Like:

"When you discard this from play, you may trash it or a card you have in play. Gain a card costing $1 more than the trashed card."

1) Counterfeit can't double that.

2) This recreates the whole duration-tracking problem.

1) Counterfeit is only a single card. It's not like you can double Hoard or Talisman with it.

2) Bonfire comes from a set with Durations and does the same. Allthough i admit Bonfire doesn't give an incentive to trash, e.g. Hireling for a King's Court. Thinking of it, i agree that it's worth trying to avoid this.

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1029 on: December 17, 2015, 07:30:08 pm »
+1

1) Counterfeit can't double that.

It can if that text is not under a dividing line.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1030 on: December 17, 2015, 07:36:50 pm »
+1

Man, you show me a good piece of art that better communicates "racketeer" and I will be happy to use it. This is the best I could find!
Maybe calling it something like extortionist or arsonist will make it more easy to find good art for? I also think it would fit better into Dominion's general theme. Racketeer sound very modern to my non-native ears.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1031 on: December 17, 2015, 07:54:49 pm »
+2

Have you recently thought about renaming your set? Because there are quite a lot of cards that seem to not fit very well thematically, either by name or by image; like Conclave, Floodgate, General, Racketeer, Wanderer, Redistrict, Wishing Ring, Armorsmith. Rather, you seem to have some military sub-theme going on.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1032 on: December 17, 2015, 08:15:14 pm »
0

1) Counterfeit can't double that.

It can if that text is not under a dividing line.

It would be under a dividing line, though, because "this" can only be discarded from play once, just like how it could only be in play once.
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1033 on: December 18, 2015, 07:58:51 am »
+1

It would be under a dividing line, though, because "this" can only be discarded from play once, just like how it could only be in play once.

It doesn't have to be under a dividing line. "This" can only be discarded from play once, but multiple effects can be triggered by a single event (in this case, those effects would be "You may trash it or a card you have in play. Gain a card costing $1 more than the trashed card." and "You may trash it or a card you have in play. Gain a card costing $1 more than the trashed card.").
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1034 on: December 18, 2015, 09:39:55 am »
0

Counterfeit will trash Wishing Ring, and thus prevent it from being discarded from play, so the number of effects it tried to create don't matter.

Awaclus

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1035 on: December 18, 2015, 09:57:14 am »
0

Counterfeit will trash Wishing Ring, and thus prevent it from being discarded from play, so the number of effects it tried to create don't matter.

Well, it did successfully create those effects, too. The effects just won't ever do anything unless there's a way to discard it from play regardless of Counterfeit.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1036 on: December 18, 2015, 10:28:00 am »
+1

I don't think I understand Redistrict. Could someone explain?

Is this the correct way to handle it?

Let's say my hand is Copper, Copper, Copper, Estate,  Redistrict

I play Redistrict and trash my Estate to gain a Silver. Then, I can trash Redistrict to gain a four cost?

BTW: Fantastic Fan Expansion LastFootnote
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 10:29:03 am by A Ladder »
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Gubump

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1037 on: December 18, 2015, 10:53:19 am »
+1

I don't think I understand Redistrict. Could someone explain?

Is this the correct way to handle it?

Let's say my hand is Copper, Copper, Copper, Estate,  Redistrict

I play Redistrict and trash my Estate to gain a Silver. Then, I can trash Redistrict to gain a four cost?

BTW: Fantastic Fan Expansion LastFootnote

Correct.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1038 on: December 18, 2015, 12:43:44 pm »
0

Firstly, i think the claim that the line alone makes the difference is a "Cum ergo propter" fallacy. The line is always accompanied by a specific wording, usually beginning with "when". Saying that one of both, the line or the wording, on its own "causes" the effect to be set-up different than by play, neglects the fact that Dominion is a game, and information might be intentionally presented in a redundant way to ease understanding.

That said, second: Wishing Ring could use Scheme's wording, to set up its effect for the start of cleanup: "At the start of cleanup this turn, you may choose a card you have in play. If you discard it from play this turn, trash it and gain a card costing $1 more."
(Note how this above-line wording decidedly avoids the word "when", using "at" and "if" instead)

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1039 on: December 18, 2015, 01:33:54 pm »
+2

Firstly, i think the claim that the line alone makes the difference is a "Cum ergo propter" fallacy. The line is always accompanied by a specific wording, usually beginning with "when". Saying that one of both, the line or the wording, on its own "causes" the effect to be set-up different than by play, neglects the fact that Dominion is a game, and information might be intentionally presented in a redundant way to ease understanding.

That said, second: Wishing Ring could use Scheme's wording, to set up its effect for the start of cleanup: "At the start of cleanup this turn, you may choose a card you have in play. If you discard it from play this turn, trash it and gain a card costing $1 more."
(Note how this above-line wording decidedly avoids the word "when", using "at" and "if" instead)

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13966.msg528081#msg528081
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Gubump

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1040 on: December 18, 2015, 01:40:41 pm »
+1

Firstly, i think the claim that the line alone makes the difference is a "Cum ergo propter" fallacy. The line is always accompanied by a specific wording, usually beginning with "when". Saying that one of both, the line or the wording, on its own "causes" the effect to be set-up different than by play, neglects the fact that Dominion is a game, and information might be intentionally presented in a redundant way to ease understanding.

That said, second: Wishing Ring could use Scheme's wording, to set up its effect for the start of cleanup: "At the start of cleanup this turn, you may choose a card you have in play. If you discard it from play this turn, trash it and gain a card costing $1 more."
(Note how this above-line wording decidedly avoids the word "when", using "at" and "if" instead)

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13966.msg528081#msg528081

While we're on the subject of that logical fallacy (somebody agreeing with you is not proof or even evidence), here's a quote two posts later, which says the opposite: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13966.msg528109#msg528109

The only way I'll agree with you is if Donald X Vaccarino himself confirms what you've been saying.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 01:44:26 pm by Gubump »
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1041 on: December 18, 2015, 01:44:29 pm »
+1

Firstly, i think the claim that the line alone makes the difference is a "Cum ergo propter" fallacy. The line is always accompanied by a specific wording, usually beginning with "when". Saying that one of both, the line or the wording, on its own "causes" the effect to be set-up different than by play, neglects the fact that Dominion is a game, and information might be intentionally presented in a redundant way to ease understanding.

That said, second: Wishing Ring could use Scheme's wording, to set up its effect for the start of cleanup: "At the start of cleanup this turn, you may choose a card you have in play. If you discard it from play this turn, trash it and gain a card costing $1 more."
(Note how this above-line wording decidedly avoids the word "when", using "at" and "if" instead)

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13966.msg528081#msg528081

While we're on the subject of that logical fallacy (somebody agreeing with you is not proof or even evidence), here's a quote two posts later, which says the opposite: http://http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13966.msg528109#msg528109

I could link my response to that post one post later, which has well-grounded arguments that show why your linked post is wrong, but I think everyone can just read the entire thread without us linking it here post by post.
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Gubump

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1042 on: December 18, 2015, 01:47:08 pm »
+3

Firstly, i think the claim that the line alone makes the difference is a "Cum ergo propter" fallacy. The line is always accompanied by a specific wording, usually beginning with "when". Saying that one of both, the line or the wording, on its own "causes" the effect to be set-up different than by play, neglects the fact that Dominion is a game, and information might be intentionally presented in a redundant way to ease understanding.

That said, second: Wishing Ring could use Scheme's wording, to set up its effect for the start of cleanup: "At the start of cleanup this turn, you may choose a card you have in play. If you discard it from play this turn, trash it and gain a card costing $1 more."
(Note how this above-line wording decidedly avoids the word "when", using "at" and "if" instead)

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13966.msg528081#msg528081

While we're on the subject of that logical fallacy (somebody agreeing with you is not proof or even evidence), here's a quote two posts later, which says the opposite: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=13966.msg528109#msg528109

I could link my response to that post one post later, which has well-grounded arguments that show why your linked post is wrong, but I think everyone can just read the entire thread without us linking it here post by post.

EDIT: Okay, after reading some of Donald's posts in that thread, I agree with you.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 09:09:40 pm by Gubump »
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1043 on: December 18, 2015, 03:24:54 pm »
+1

Today, a game with Wishing Ring, Redistrict, Floodgate, and Harbor.

I printed the "once this turn" version of Wishing Ring, and although everybody guessed how it worked correctly, nobody was 100% sure. People still find Redistrict's wording confusing, too, and I am once again considering changing it to always trash itself. "Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it and a card costing exactly $2 more than it. Trash this." Hopefully that's at least clear.

Wishing Ring was almost exclusively used as a Feast for Gold, which is not ideal, but I'm willing to give it another shot before changing it. It was also used to turn a dead Throne Room (played without other Action cards) into a $5 card.

Redistrict was popular. Sometimes it was bought with $1 hands, so the cost change was significant. In addition to trashing Estates, it was used to trash e.g. Bureaucrat for a $5 and a $6 card.

I bought three Floodgates, one early (that I Redistricted next turn), and two late. It was nice for moving two otherwise dead Throne Rooms to my next hand.

Only I bought Harbor this game. It's strong, but I was pretty far behind.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1044 on: December 18, 2015, 05:01:23 pm »
+1

I just realized that with the change, there's a great symmetry between Conclave and Harbor. Both deal with the top three cards of your deck, put some of them into your hand, and put the rest back in any order. They still feel different, but it's another cool connection.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1045 on: December 18, 2015, 05:40:22 pm »
0

Yes, it appears Donald X and the rulebook go d'accord with Awaclus.

Either way, i think the wording with a line is better. Also, you could try the card at $3, producing $0. As you can't trash Estates with it, i don't think it's too strong.

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1046 on: December 20, 2015, 03:31:45 am »
+1

IIRC after playtesting "Cargo", which is Wishing Ring as it is now with "trash in play" wording, it just didn't seem right. That game had Hoard and I remember lamenting having too many cards costing $6 in my hand to make use of the effect other than to gain more "annoying" Golds and Hoards. Probably not the ideal playtesting game, and I wasn't playing particularly seriously, but I didn't enjoy the card anywhere near as much as I thought I would.

Most recently IIRC I changed it to "Degree", a card costing $4 that could only gain Action cards and produced $0, but I never playtested that version. The idea was to make it more distinct from Counterfeit, and have there be a real decision point between using it to trash Coppers and trashing itself.

There's probably a good card with some combination of effects.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1047 on: December 20, 2015, 01:50:01 pm »
+2

IIRC after playtesting "Cargo", which is Wishing Ring as it is now with "trash in play" wording, it just didn't seem right. That game had Hoard and I remember lamenting having too many cards costing $6 in my hand to make use of the effect other than to gain more "annoying" Golds and Hoards. Probably not the ideal playtesting game, and I wasn't playing particularly seriously, but I didn't enjoy the card anywhere near as much as I thought I would.

Most recently IIRC I changed it to "Degree", a card costing $4 that could only gain Action cards and produced $0, but I never playtested that version. The idea was to make it more distinct from Counterfeit, and have there be a real decision point between using it to trash Coppers and trashing itself.

There's probably a good card with some combination of effects.

For me, the fun of the card should be trashing good cards for better cards. So I very intentionally made Wishing Ring not able to meaningfully trash Copper (without Poor House, Redistrict, cost reduction, etc.). Now I'm wondering if I should remove the self-trashing as well, even though it's on-theme in the set. "When you discard this from play, you may trash another card you have in play and gain a card costing up to $1 more than it." Probably at that point I try it giving +$2.

EDIT: Also, if this card survives, I will probably name it "Trade Goods" and rename Trade Goods to something else.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1048 on: December 26, 2015, 08:26:13 pm »
+4

Asper and I played a game with four of the shiny new Enterprise cards and it was quite fun and very tense in the end.
Quote
Redistrict, Coin of the Realm, Wanderer, Hermit, Committee, Magpie, Nomad Camp, Council Room, Wine Merchant, Study
Asper opened with a Committee and I, reckless trasher and engine-enthusiast that I am, made him gain green junk before I realised that Magpie might be a pretty good enabler for a Duchy-based strategy. Consequently, with two Duchies in his deck, Asper committed to Committee (see what I did here?) and went for a Duchy-Magpie-rush, trying to pile drive the CotR pile for a surprise ending. Meanwhile I struggled to make the engine work, drew my deck frequently but was lacking payload ($8 per turn max).
When Asper was starting to choke on green, I had to surmount his huge lead with 8 Duchies and 2 Provinces (30 points). I was threatening a surprise Province by Redistricting a Study but never found the right time for it. We both played suboptimally and I managed to take the tie with 5 Provinces (or else I would have lost).
I only bought the Study for the sake of curiosity and it wasn’t any more useful to me than Gold. Still I realise the card has potential with the right synergistic cards on the board. They just weren’t there this time. We both bought a Wanderer and kept passing them back and forth until in the late game we were reluctant to pass it. Although I think it was even less useful to me than to him in the end. I bought Redistrict for $2 in the opening and only once spent a spare buy on it so a cost of $0 seems to work out very well for it. OTOH, I think I could have used it better.

Committee was the most interesting card here because the first two times you play it you give your opponent some control over what kind of deck you are going to get. If he gives you Duchies, you might have to adapt your strategy to that. But since the other options of Committee (Masquerade or Laboratory) are so good you can hardly ever ignore the card when it’s on the board. And when you evaluate it you always have to ask yourself two questions: “What would I do if I get a Duchy?” and “Would I give my opponent a Duchy?” And that makes this card very interesting and actually one of the most cleverly designed fan cards I’ve ever seen.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2015, 08:27:22 pm by Co0kieL0rd »
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1049 on: December 27, 2015, 06:59:46 am »
+1

Some more things: I also needed Coin of the Realm so my Committees could chain into other cards while still gaining Duchies. The Magpies picked up the Coins and Coppers, the Duchies made me gain Magpies, the Coins enabled the Committee. A 3-card interaction, so to speak.

That said, i think Committee is worthwile only if gaining Duchies benefits you on the overall board. The reward of lining your only Duchy up with Committees is too little, and if gaining Duchies is bad for you the other bonuses won't make up for it. This was a fun board to play Committee, though, but even there i only made a draw. Mostly i was lacking the +buy to pick up the remaining CotRs in the end, and totally missed i could have had them quickly with Nomad Camp. Co0kie had a Committee of his own. I always had him trash because i didn't want to share the Duchies with him and it lowered his buying power overall (he was drawing his deck either way)

When picking cards, i figured Council Room would interact interestingly with Study, as an opponent's Study wouldn't benefit him after my Council Room. As only CL bought them, we ccouldn't check on this.
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