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Author Topic: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)  (Read 190155 times)

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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1000 on: December 05, 2015, 04:47:36 am »
+1

Oh I didn't notice you had a new version of Committee. The one in the post above, I like the idea. Although there's potential it doesn't work out in practise. But I would definitely test it.

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1001 on: December 14, 2015, 03:01:12 pm »
+5

Things are getting rolling. I tested a new card, Charlatan, last week. Since then I've printed and sleeved the new Redistrict (costs $0) and another new card.

Here is how a Treasure version of Conscripts might look:



Quote
Armament: Treasure–Attack, $4*
Worth $2
When you play this, if you have another Attack card in play, return this to the Armament pile and each other player gains a Curse.

It's a bit easier to activate than Conscripts, since you can e.g. play a Margrave, draw this with it, and still play it (for the attack, even). On the other hand, because this is a Treasure rather than an Action, the Barracks equivalent doesn't need +1 Action anymore.



Quote
Bladesmith: Action, $5
Gain an Armament from the Armament pile, putting it into your hand.

I think I prefer this, especially since so many of the $5 Action cards in Enterprise are non-terminal already. What do you all think, both about Conscripts vs. Armament, and the corresponding change to Barracks/Bladesmith?
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1002 on: December 14, 2015, 03:06:51 pm »
+2

I like the change a lot. I can't explain why, but it looks aesthetically so much better. (and getting rid of the +action makes it simpler, which is good)
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tristan

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1003 on: December 15, 2015, 03:15:47 am »
+1

The obvious comparison is Explorer. Explorer is better than a mere Silver hand-gainer as you can sometimes hand-gain a Gold whereas Bladesmith is better as you can sometimes liquidate the Silver in order to curse.
The bonuses sounds roughly similiar to me and as Explorer is not a particularly strong 5$ card (on the other hand it is often underrated, perhaps because its strength is fairly deck-dependent) Bladesmith is probably balanced.

I like the idea of a Treasure attack.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 03:18:34 am by tristan »
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1004 on: December 15, 2015, 07:40:20 am »
+2

This looks a lot more elegant, as I was hoping for. Could you please repost a link to the complete list of your current cards? I can't find it anywhere and I don't want to search through half the thread to find all the recent changes.
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Gubump

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1005 on: December 15, 2015, 09:39:00 am »
+1

Things are getting rolling. I tested a new card, Charlatan, last week. Since then I've printed and sleeved the new Redistrict (costs $0) and another new card.

Here is how a Treasure version of Conscripts might look:



Quote
Armament: Treasure–Attack, $4*
Worth $2
When you play this, if you have another Attack card in play, return this to the Armament pile and each other player gains a Curse.

It's a bit easier to activate than Conscripts, since you can e.g. play a Margrave, draw this with it, and still play it (for the attack, even). On the other hand, because this is a Treasure rather than an Action, the Barracks equivalent doesn't need +1 Action anymore.



Quote
Bladesmith: Action, $5
Gain an Armament from the Armament pile, putting it into your hand.

I think I prefer this, especially since so many of the $5 Action cards in Enterprise are non-terminal already. What do you all think, both about Conscripts vs. Armament, and the corresponding change to Barracks/Bladesmith?

Armament looks far better as a Treasure. It's also stronger, since you play it later and it's much easier to actually activate it.
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Gubump

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1006 on: December 15, 2015, 09:39:31 am »
+3

This looks a lot more elegant, as I was hoping for. Could you please repost a link to the complete list of your current cards? I can't find it anywhere and I don't want to search through half the thread to find all the recent changes.

I would appreciate you doing this as well, LFN.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1007 on: December 15, 2015, 10:58:56 am »
+2

On the other hand, Bladesmith is now terminal. You can't just chain them, and neither can you trivially play an attack after it. Overall i don't think Bladesmith is stronger than Barracks. Possibly weaker.

Thematically, i like Bladesmith more than Barracks, allthough i think just 'Sword' would have been nicer for a Treasure.

GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1008 on: December 15, 2015, 11:56:41 am »
+1

Is there a good reason that Armament costs ? As a general rule, non-supply cards cost except when there was a design reason to do otherwise.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1009 on: December 15, 2015, 12:11:17 pm »
0

On the other hand, Bladesmith is now terminal. You can't just chain them, and neither can you trivially play an attack after it. Overall i don't think Bladesmith is stronger than Barracks. Possibly weaker.

Thematically, i like Bladesmith more than Barracks, allthough i think just 'Sword' would have been nicer for a Treasure.

I like that you can't chain Bladesmiths. Before Barracks rush could sort of be a thing, but now it should be harder to pull off. I agree that Bladesmith is weaker than Barracks, but hopefully it's still a solid $5 card (especially since Armament is a bit stronger than Conscripts on average).

I could do "Sword", but then I'd want maybe named Profiteer "Arms Merchant" or something. Also, an Armament activating another Armament seems more thematic to me than a Sword activating another Sword. With Armaments, you've got enough firepower to just arm your populace or whatever. And this card has to activate copies of itself in order to work without other Attacks on the table.

Is there a good reason that Armament costs ? As a general rule, non-supply cards cost except when there was a design reason to do otherwise.

Yes! The reason is that Donald changed his stance on it a bit during Adventures testing. Dominion works better when cards cost (at least close to) what they're worth. (Obviously Travellers don't cost exactly what they're worth, but they're closer than $0.) $4 seemed like a nice cost for Armament, so I'm going to try it out a bit. $0 isn't off the table, but there would need to be an actual problem with a higher cost.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1010 on: December 15, 2015, 12:27:11 pm »
+1

How many Armaments are there? I think choosing the right number might be important to make Bladesmith worth it in games without other Attacks. Should be at least 10, but I suggest 15 like Spoils.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1011 on: December 15, 2015, 12:29:48 pm »
0

How many Armaments are there? I think choosing the right number might be important to make Bladesmith worth it in games without other Attacks. Should be at least 10, but I suggest 15 like Spoils.

I will be testing with 16. It will probably be in that range.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1012 on: December 15, 2015, 01:59:48 pm »
+1


Is there a good reason that Armament costs ? As a general rule, non-supply cards cost except when there was a design reason to do otherwise.

Yes! The reason is that Donald changed his stance on it a bit during Adventures testing. Dominion works better when cards cost (at least close to) what they're worth. (Obviously Travellers don't cost exactly what they're worth, but they're closer than $0.) $4 seemed like a nice cost for Armament, so I'm going to try it out a bit. $0 isn't off the table, but there would need to be an actual problem with a higher cost.

Ah, so you think Spoils, Madman, Prizes, etc; would have a different cost if printed today?
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1013 on: December 15, 2015, 03:19:32 pm »
+4

I see a good reason to make Travellers cost something else than $0*: It makes it easier to get them in order even if you don't know the cards by heart. I'm not sure i'd like non-ordered non-supply cards to cost something else, personally. Even if the reason is just that it comes off as inconsistent.

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1014 on: December 15, 2015, 03:41:07 pm »
+5

Ah, so you think Spoils, Madman, Prizes, etc; would have a different cost if printed today?

Possibly. It's hard to say. I mean it's significant that e.g. Mercenary can be Princed, despite being way stronger than your average $4 card.

I see a good reason to make Travellers cost something else than $0*: It makes it easier to get them in order even if you don't know the cards by heart. I'm not sure i'd like non-ordered non-supply cards to cost something else, personally. Even if the reason is just that it comes off as inconsistent.

I also enjoy consistency, but there are a lot of reasons to cost non-Supply cards more appropriately. Many cards (like Prince, noted above) care about the cost of cards. It's good to be able to use remodel and other trash-for-benefit cards on them. And of course Attacks treat the cards differently; $0* cards are strangely immune to Knights, yet Swindlers can give you Curses for them.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1015 on: December 15, 2015, 04:04:47 pm »
+1

Could you please repost a link to the complete list of your current cards? I can't find it anywhere and I don't want to search through half the thread to find all the recent changes.

I would appreciate you doing this as well, LFN.

I'm currently in the process of updating all my cards with more correct fonts and styles. Once that's done (hopefully tonight), I will repost the link to the Enterprise imgur album.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1016 on: December 15, 2015, 06:15:21 pm »
+2

Many cards (like Prince, noted above) care about the cost of cards. It's good to be able to use remodel and other trash-for-benefit cards on them. And of course Attacks treat the cards differently; $0* cards are strangely immune to Knights, yet Swindlers can give you Curses for them.

Well, if Mercenary was a Traveller, i suppose it would cost $4*, to show it comes after a $3, and could still get Princed. Same for Madman (which doesn't work either way). And, well, Haven and Feast can't really be Princed, so the card has some weird interactions anyhow. I wouldn't say the guy is a very good way to determine how accurate a card's price is.

Summon, Seaway, Inheritance etc don't work on Mercenary regardless of price. So the events are out, too. Same goes for Haggler, Border Village, Band of Misfits etc. Generally, all things that interact with the supply are out.

Sage skips over Mercenary, but not over Warrior. Okay, that's a point.

Also, here's what Donald X wrote about Trash-for-benefit and Prizes:

Quote
They always cost $0. They need a cost because some cards care about card costs. There are various arguments for why they should have what cost, but I think a crucial one in favor of 0$ is, that it makes it extra clear that you cannot actually buy them. I also like that you don't think, "oh man the correct play is to Remodel my prize."

I don't know whether he changed his mind on this, but unless he did, this speaks for itself. You could probably argue whether what applies for prizes applies for other non-supply-cards, though.

What's left? Maybe something like Sage or Prince i forgot. Correct me if there's something missing. Other than that, trashing attacks and cards that gain from the trash. Of the second, Graverobber is also TFB and Rogue also a trashing attack. So, what's left are trashing attacks.

I'll admit some of these are a bit odd. Warrior is a special case, as depending on how high you price Madman, Spoils, Mercenary or Prizes, the outcome might be the same. Giant/Rogue/Knights can trash Champion, and i'm not sure that's so good. But yes, they also don't trash Mercenary, which i think would be in the target range normally. And Swindler and Saboteur are definitely a bit strange, i'll admit that. On the other hand, we are down at specific card interactions, here. Trashing attacks and Sage? At this level we can just say "It's not a bug, it's a feature."

Not like Scheme/Prince or Feast/Prince or Fool's Gold/Sage or Swindler/Peddler killed the game, either.

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1017 on: December 16, 2015, 04:49:18 am »
+1

Okay, I think I'm caught up with the last few pages. I was skeptical about Conscripts as a treasure at first, but after seeing Armaments I'm convinced. Would prefer $0* in the price corner, but I don't feel particularly strongly about it.

The buff to Auction was definitely needed. It was not great at $2, even in games with a lot of draw. I really don't think there's any reason to worry about its price.

Sad to hear about Clerk and Mill Town. I just played a game today with Clerk, (as well as Jubilee, Terrace, Barter, and Wheelwright) and it was always funny when the other guy drew them at the top of his shuffle.

When you update the OP, please throw in a topdecking Conclave. I want to try that out.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1018 on: December 17, 2015, 02:20:16 pm »
+3

So, here's the link to the Enterprise imgur album: https://imgur.com/a/MsJH8

I don't plan to update the OP until I've actually tested more of the new stuff, but here's a little gallery and I'll talk about about the state of each card.



Man, almost none of these have been tested in their exact current form. How embarrassing. Well that will be rectified soon enough.

Redistrict: I'm going to try this out at $0. Functionally, a $0 cost is similar to a $2 cost in many ways when it's on a card that you don't want a million copies of. The idea here of course is to prevent you from ever Redistricting something into another Redistrict and therefore running out the pile.

Auction: The reaction half is new. Who knows how that will play out, but I'm hoping the card will be a bit less narrow.

Jubilee: A small change: you now wait to return it to the Supply until Clean-up. This means that 1) it's easier to track that you got +2 Actions and +$2; and 2) you can't buy back the same Jubilees you returned on your turn, meaning slightly more pile-based player interaction. #2 there is incidental, but I don't mind it.

Wanderer: Completely untested. May be a total dud! If nobody buys it at first, there are lots of avenues for improvement while keeping the base concept intact.

Charlatan: We tried it in one game without +1 Action and it was a dud. Now it has +1 Action.

Convoy: I lowered the cost to $3 because of complaints about how it looks next to Smithy. Probably it's fine at $3; we'll see.

Floodgate: A card I haven't changed recently, huzzah!

Gambler: And another one; two in a row. Gambler is a love-it-or-hate it kind of card, and also maybe too strong? For now it's still in.

Tinker: Sometimes I still wonder if this should cost $4. Anyway we tested it at $3 a bunch months ago and it was good times.

Committee: Untested. I don't have high hopes for this one, but it's here in the file in case it turns out to be awesome.

Dignitary: I'm trying out a new version of the Reaction here. You can only use it once per turn (regardless of how many Dignitaries you have in hand), and trash one card with it. I'm open to going back to "discard this and trash a card, then draw 2".

Profiteer: The only change is that Conscripts has been replaced with Armament. I guess we'll see.

Racketeer: Asper and Co0kieL0rd tested this at $5 and thought it should be cheaper, so I'm going to try it at $4.

Terrace: Same as it ever was.

Trade Goods: Untested. Hopefully a fixed Craftsman. Craftsman was fun, but didn't play real nicely with other token cards, since the token-getting ability was so much stronger than the token-using ability. Trade Goods tries to be a little more balanced there.

Bladesmith: Barracks, but without +1 Action and with Armament instead of Conscripts. I have high hopes.

Conclave: You put the other cards back rather than discarding them. I'm not optimistic, but everyone wants to save Conclave, so let's give it a shot.

Fund: I wish Fund were more popular in my testing group. It seems good power-wise, and other folks who playtest my cards have bought it and like it. Anyway it hasn't changed.

General: Same as before. No longer on-theme, but a very simple and classic-feeling card.

Harbor: Harbor's sort of all-purpose, you know? Maybe too strong for $5, hard to say. Anyway it's been popular in my testing group. It's still the same.

Vendor: I like Vendor, but maybe I'm the only one. People look at it and think, "I only get to do the ability once?" Sometimes Terrace gets that too. Anyway, sometimes you don't have a discard pile, so you can't use Vendor's ability every time anyway. And when you do use it, the boost can be huge. But that doesn't alter the fact that it looks bad to a lot of players. Anyway, I'll test it a bit more.

Wheelwright: Still the same. Maybe I don't need this and Study, but Study may be awful or crazy, so Wheelwright remains here for now.

Wishing Ring: Untested. I came up with this, realized it sounded familiar, looked back through other fan sets, and realized it's very close to NoMoreFun's Cargo. Which I guess he was going to replace anyway? Then I looked to see what I'd said about Cargo and it turns out I liked it, phew. Yay, consistency! Anyway…Wishing Ring has wording to handle Durations. It's different/weaker than Cargo in that it gains a card costing up to $1 more (instead of exactly; it can't trash Coppers for nothing), but stronger in that the trashing is optional. Anyway I'm going to try it out. It looks weak, but being able to play a card and then trash it is pretty powerful. And it's much more versatile than Procession (can trash and gain non-Actions).

Study: Untested. A "during your next turn" Duration. I'm waffling between this version that makes you draw before resolving (but after putting into play) each Action card, and a version that draws after you resolve each Action card. Both are potentially nuts with Vault-style cards, especially Artificer. I'm hoping that this version is the less-crazy version.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1019 on: December 17, 2015, 03:10:56 pm »
+2

Enterprise seems to be developing a treasure theme, and all the treasures look solid. I think that's good.

A possibility for Racketeer, if it turns out to be too good at $4, would be to change the +$2 to "Gain a silver" to fit into that theme and make it, like Bureaucrat, harder to stack.

EDIT: A possible version of Charlatan that is less board-variant could have this text on the bottom:

"Until your next turn, at the end of each other player's buy phase, they must buy a card."
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 04:02:49 pm by XerxesPraelor »
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1020 on: December 17, 2015, 03:55:49 pm »
+3

Hey, you snuck in some new cards! Just a few quick thoughts here:

Your minor tweak to Jubilee is very clever for the reasons you named!

I'm a fan of Committee's design but I can't tell if it might work out. I really hope it will because the more I think of it, the more I like it.

So the "once per turn" on Dignitary and Wishing Ring does not only count for the card it's written on but for all copies of it? For Dignitary this makes sense but is it necessary for Wishing Ring? It looks weak next to Upgrade, at least while you use it for Copper trashing, and it cannot trash Estates! Compared to Procession it doesn't look much better, either, because the action card you want to trash gets played one less time and there's this buzzkill restriction on top of that. The cost difference is significant and for $5 I'd rather see a Silver+. All that aside, the idea is cool and fits in the set thematically.

...other than Study? It seems pretty strong, kind of like a friendly minion that allows you to build to draw-up-to-X engine using cheap non-terminals. But that's fine, for $6 you expect an impactful card. As you mentioned, there might be some ridiculous power combos out there but those already exist plenty among official cards.

Racketteer has a bear?  ???
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 03:58:28 pm by Co0kieL0rd »
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1021 on: December 17, 2015, 04:31:00 pm »
+1

So the "once per turn" on Dignitary and Wishing Ring does not only count for the card it's written on but for all copies of it?

I was just writing a whole post where I confused myself about the "once this turn" on Wishing Ring, but then I figured it out by the time I got to the end so I deleted it.  The "once this turn" is there to clarify that each Wishing Ring can only upgrade one card that gets discarded.  Without that phrase, each one can upgrade any cards you want.  And as it is written, it is technically correct and consistent with Dominion grammar.  But I think it will be very confusing for players who are not already very familiar with Dominion rules.  I can't think of a better wording off the top of my head.  Right now I would say it's better to just have it do its thing when you play it (I assume LastFootnote didn't do this because of the lose track issues that might arise with things like Herbalist or Alchemist, but those are just a few interactions which I think is not as bad as having a seemingly ambiguous wording every time the card is out).
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1022 on: December 17, 2015, 04:33:02 pm »
+2

So the "once per turn" on Dignitary and Wishing Ring does not only count for the card it's written on but for all copies of it?

I was just writing a whole post where I confused myself about the "once this turn" on Wishing Ring, but then I figured it out by the time I got to the end so I deleted it.  The "once this turn" is there to clarify that each Wishing Ring can only upgrade one card that gets discarded.  Without that phrase, each one can upgrade any cards you want.  And as it is written, it is technically correct and consistent with Dominion grammar.  But I think it will be very confusing for players who are not already very familiar with Dominion rules.  I can't think of a better wording off the top of my head.  Right now I would say it's better to just have it do its thing when you play it (I assume LastFootnote didn't do this because of the lose track issues that might arise with things like Herbalist or Alchemist, but those are just a few interactions which I think is not as bad as having a seemingly ambiguous wording every time the card is out).

I wonder if it would make infinite turns with Storyteller/Graverobber/King's Court possible?
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1023 on: December 17, 2015, 04:38:43 pm »
0

So the "once per turn" on Dignitary and Wishing Ring does not only count for the card it's written on but for all copies of it? For Dignitary this makes sense but is it necessary for Wishing Ring? It looks weak next to Upgrade, at least while you use it for Copper trashing, and it cannot trash Estates! Compared to Procession it doesn't look much better, either, because the action card you want to trash gets played one less time and there's this buzzkill restriction on top of that. The cost difference is significant and for $5 I'd rather see a Silver+. All that aside, the idea is cool and fits in the set thematically.

Oh, I can see where this would be confusing. But uh, the two effects are in different places and have different scopes.

Dignitary's "Once per turn" is a global effect that happens to be written on Dignitary itself because that's when it matters. Like Embargo's under-line effect. So you can only use the Dignitary reaction once per turn, period. Though each player's turn is a separate turn, so you could use it once per player that attacks you.

Wishing Ring's "Once this turn" is just an effect that gets set up when you play it, but you get to choose when to activate it this turn. So if you play multiple Wishing Rings (or one Wishing Ring multiple times via e.g. Counterfeit), you may use the remodeling effect once per time you played it. It's like Scheme. I believe Scheme could be written "Once this turn, when you discard an Action card from play, you may put it on top of your deck" and have the same effect but with way fewer words.

EDIT: Yes, what scott_pilgrim said. I did not anticipate there being so much confusion about this wording, though I guess I can understand it. I suppose Wishing Ring could use Scheme's wording, but that would be lots of awful tiny text. It can't just do its thing when you play it without creating awful tracking issues with Durations. I guess I could say "non-Duration card", but it would be nice not to have to.

Racketteer has a bear?  ???

Man, you show me a good piece of art that better communicates "racketeer" and I will be happy to use it. This is the best I could find!
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #1024 on: December 17, 2015, 04:43:48 pm »
+2

I guess Wishing Ring could say: "When you play this, choose a card you have in play. If you discard it from play this turn, trash it and gain a card costing up to $1 more than it."

It's still more words, but probably it's clearer. It's mostly functionally the same, though if you play e.g. Bank after it, you can't upgrade the Bank.
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