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Author Topic: Dominion: Enterprise  (Read 412303 times)

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pacovf

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #775 on: February 26, 2015, 12:35:33 pm »
+1

Part of the problem is that you don't know what you are going to get. Cf: tribute.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #776 on: February 26, 2015, 12:37:02 pm »
+1

Spending $5 and a card slot from your hand to Thief a Silver is a total dud.

I don't agree.  Thieving a Silver is quite good.  It's all those Coppers you Thieve in the mean time that make Thief a bad card. This is guaranteed to hit something good, and it gives it to you right away.  Compare to all the Silver with a bonus cards that are at $5.  If this only hits Silver, the bonus is, the first time you play it, it removes a silver from your opponents deck.  I'm not going to say that is great, but it's not much different than buying a Royal Seal on $5 when there aren't other good options.  Now add the additional bonus that you might hit something better.

Thieving a Silver is quite bad. Thief is a bad card for a multitude of reasons, not just the Copper trashing. This might not be a bad card because oftentimes you might hit something more useful than a Silver, but when you do hit a Silver, it is indeed not very good.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #777 on: February 26, 2015, 12:39:21 pm »
+1

I'd generally prefer Lab over Explorer too?  They can't all be the best $5.

That is very true, and Conquest will often do better than that. But I still don't think it's a case of coming out on top compared to likely other options.

Of course, with Conquest's range of outcome strengths, it does make sense that its worse outcomes should be worse than what you'd expect to get from buying a different $5, while its best outcomes should be better.
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pacovf

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #778 on: February 26, 2015, 12:41:33 pm »
+1

Another option would be to price it at 6 and make it dig for two cards (or look at the top x cards or whatever). You choose the card that gets trashed.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #779 on: February 26, 2015, 02:02:43 pm »
0

Thanks for all the great discussion and feedback, everyone!

I think I will first try the original version posted. Yes sometimes it will steal a Silver and be a one-shot, non-terminal Explorer for you. And that will suck. But often it will be better and, unlike most trashing cards, it will almost never miss altogether. Really my biggest worry is that it can steal Duchies, since some players apparently hate that. But at least that option is tempered by the fact that the Duchy (probably) isn't doing you as much good in-hand than an Action or Treasure card would.

Another option would be to price it at 6 and make it dig for two cards (or look at the top x cards or whatever). You choose the card that gets trashed.

Well that's one way to go if the card needs a buff. Bear in mind that, in a game with more than 2 players, you are already deciding which trashed card to gain. So putting another decision on top of that isn't ideal. But again, it's an option to consider.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 01:08:55 am by LastFootnote »
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TheOthin

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #780 on: February 26, 2015, 02:30:22 pm »
+1

If the Duchy stealing turns out to be too big of an issue, it could be possible to work around it by excluding Victory cards. But that'd take some testing beforehand to tell.
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pacovf

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #781 on: February 26, 2015, 02:50:28 pm »
+1

I agree that choosing the card trashed in multiplayer would make for a lot decisions... But still, it's a oneshot, so it might be fine.

However, I'm not as concerned about power as I am concerned about "swinginess" when talking about 5$ oneshots....
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #782 on: February 26, 2015, 03:31:31 pm »
+1

The Duchy thing doesn't seem too bad.  They could have just bought a Duchy in the first place (unless they are already out, which maybe makes this interesting, or maybe just swingy, hard to guess).  Loosing the Duchy is a bit like getting hit with a one-shot Saboteur. Could be a really strong (swingy?) card in a Duke mirror.

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #783 on: February 26, 2015, 03:36:24 pm »
+1

Buying a Duchy gets you 3 VP, but buying a Conquest and hitting a Duchy gets you 3 VP while lowering your opponent's score by 3 VP. And even on the shuffle where you play Conquest, you're really no worse off than if you'd bought the Duchy because unlike Feast, you get back the Action you used to play Conquest and even get the Duchy in hand right away anyway.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #784 on: February 26, 2015, 04:00:16 pm »
+1

It's a delicate balance between swinginess and wordiness. The more cards that are immune to the attack, the more words it takes to exclude them. It also makes it easier to avoid the attack by avoiding buying the few cards it can hit. I'll start with the standard $3 to $6 and see if it needs tweaking.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #785 on: February 26, 2015, 04:01:55 pm »
+1

Buying a Duchy gets you 3 VP, but buying a Conquest and hitting a Duchy gets you 3 VP while lowering your opponent's score by 3 VP. And even on the shuffle where you play Conquest, you're really no worse off than if you'd bought the Duchy because unlike Feast, you get back the Action you used to play Conquest and even get the Duchy in hand right away anyway.

But you have to reshuffle, draw the card and play it before that can happen, and then you still need to hit the Duchy.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #786 on: February 26, 2015, 04:17:36 pm »
+1

Buying a Duchy gets you 3 VP, but buying a Conquest and hitting a Duchy gets you 3 VP while lowering your opponent's score by 3 VP. And even on the shuffle where you play Conquest, you're really no worse off than if you'd bought the Duchy because unlike Feast, you get back the Action you used to play Conquest and even get the Duchy in hand right away anyway.

But you have to reshuffle, draw the card and play it before that can happen, and then you still need to hit the Duchy.

And, your opponent needs to have already bought a Duchy, and not have it in his hand when you play your Conquest...
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #787 on: February 26, 2015, 04:38:37 pm »
+1

Buying a Duchy gets you 3 VP, but buying a Conquest and hitting a Duchy gets you 3 VP while lowering your opponent's score by 3 VP. And even on the shuffle where you play Conquest, you're really no worse off than if you'd bought the Duchy because unlike Feast, you get back the Action you used to play Conquest and even get the Duchy in hand right away anyway.

But you have to reshuffle, draw the card and play it before that can happen, and then you still need to hit the Duchy.

Sure, buying Conquest over Duchy when you want Duchy isn't actually a good idea. But given that it doesn't matter how long you have the Duchy in your deck, if your Conquest ends up turning into a Duchy you will be better off than if you had bought a Duchy instead.
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #788 on: February 26, 2015, 05:10:09 pm »
+1

Buying a Duchy gets you 3 VP, but buying a Conquest and hitting a Duchy gets you 3 VP while lowering your opponent's score by 3 VP. And even on the shuffle where you play Conquest, you're really no worse off than if you'd bought the Duchy because unlike Feast, you get back the Action you used to play Conquest and even get the Duchy in hand right away anyway.

But you have to reshuffle, draw the card and play it before that can happen, and then you still need to hit the Duchy.

Sure, buying Conquest over Duchy when you want Duchy isn't actually a good idea. But given that it doesn't matter how long you have the Duchy in your deck, if your Conquest ends up turning into a Duchy you will be better off than if you had bought a Duchy instead.

Well, if you buy a turn 1 Mountebank, you will be better off than if you had bought a Duchy instead.
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TheOthin

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #789 on: February 26, 2015, 05:16:29 pm »
+2

Buying a Duchy gets you 3 VP, but buying a Conquest and hitting a Duchy gets you 3 VP while lowering your opponent's score by 3 VP. And even on the shuffle where you play Conquest, you're really no worse off than if you'd bought the Duchy because unlike Feast, you get back the Action you used to play Conquest and even get the Duchy in hand right away anyway.

But you have to reshuffle, draw the card and play it before that can happen, and then you still need to hit the Duchy.

Sure, buying Conquest over Duchy when you want Duchy isn't actually a good idea. But given that it doesn't matter how long you have the Duchy in your deck, if your Conquest ends up turning into a Duchy you will be better off than if you had bought a Duchy instead.

Well, if you buy a turn 1 Mountebank, you will be better off than if you had bought a Duchy instead.

Unless your opponent hits it with a Turn 1 Conquest!

I am not responsible if someone tries this and ends up whiffing their Conquest when they should've just bought a Mountebank.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 05:19:37 pm by TheOthin »
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #790 on: February 26, 2015, 05:24:04 pm »
+1

Now these are two new ideas I like :D I also just realised that any idea you have since your Dominion: Adventures play-testing means that there is no similar card in the new official set. BAM!

Let's talk about the new Bookkeeper first. This looks promising. I even wonder why such a card isn't there already. It will always be a little nasty and sometimes really screw over your opponent. Which makes me think it should cost $4 but that's just my intuition. I feel like it's often at least as good as Cutpurse in the early game but stays strong later. Even early, if your opponent decides to put back an Estate rather than discard a Copper, it surely screws up their next hand.

Conquest: I am a little surprised you're going for a harsh trashing attack. But I guess since it's a one-shot it's alright. Gaining and playing the gained card immediately afterwards is a good idea. I agree with Awaclus, though that hitting only Silvers with an expensive one-shot would really suck. And there are plenty of Silvers in an average Dominion deck.
I've got an extraordinary suggestion: try Conquest targeting cards from $4 to $7. It would look quite unusual but it changes a lot and would make me rather think "this is gonna be a successful Conquest!"
I also like the version that immediately plays the gained Action card, and twice if it costs less than Conquest, but Pacovf made a valid point in that nobody wants to be forced to play a trasher. But you could make both plays optional! I guess that's too many words for your liking, though.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #791 on: February 26, 2015, 11:47:53 pm »
+1

I also just realised that any idea you have since your Dominion: Adventures play-testing means that there is no similar card in the new official set. BAM!

Fact. Now all I have to do is propose every possible card that's not in Adventures and you'll know exactly what's in it! ;D

Let's talk about the new Bookkeeper first. This looks promising. I even wonder why such a card isn't there already. It will always be a little nasty and sometimes really screw over your opponent. Which makes me think it should cost $4 but that's just my intuition. I feel like it's often at least as good as Cutpurse in the early game but stays strong later. Even early, if your opponent decides to put back an Estate rather than discard a Copper, it surely screws up their next hand.

I think the fact that they often get to choose early whether to topdeck an Estate or discard a Copper makes it weaker. It's sort of like a reverse Coin token. If they don't want to be bumped down $1, their next hand suffers for it. But they can choose whichever is more advantageous. But I might make it cost $4 just because the set is hemorrhaging $4 cards and has way too may $3 cards. For $3 right now, it has (new) Bookkeeper, Convoy, Floodgate, Gambler, Mill Town, Refurbish, and Tinker. Assuming I remove the old Committee, it has Craftsman, Dignitary, Profiteer, and Terrace at $4. Bookkeeper and Tinker would probably be fine at $4, although I kind of like Tinker at $3. Refurbish has always been a prime candidate for cutting just because it's 100% off-theme. As much as it saddens me, Mill Town could also be cut. It's a fine card, but the set has a lot of villages (Jubilee, Mill Town, Terrace, General), and Mill Town is the one I need the least.

Conquest is a potential Axeman replacement. I may try a cheaper ($4?) Barrister that makes players trash Domains from their hand.

Conquest: I am a little surprised you're going for a harsh trashing attack. But I guess since it's a one-shot it's alright. Gaining and playing the gained card immediately afterwards is a good idea. I agree with Awaclus, though that hitting only Silvers with an expensive one-shot would really suck. And there are plenty of Silvers in an average Dominion deck.
I've got an extraordinary suggestion: try Conquest targeting cards from $4 to $7. It would look quite unusual but it changes a lot and would make me rather think "this is gonna be a successful Conquest!"
I also like the version that immediately plays the gained Action card, and twice if it costs less than Conquest, but Pacovf made a valid point in that nobody wants to be forced to play a trasher. But you could make both plays optional! I guess that's too many words for your liking, though.

I'll keep the $4 to $7 option in mind. I do worry that it's easier to trash Provinces with, though. One Highway is all you'd need.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #792 on: February 27, 2015, 06:17:59 am »
+2

I think the fact that they often get to choose early whether to topdeck an Estate or discard a Copper makes it weaker. It's sort of like a reverse Coin token. If they don't want to be bumped down $1, their next hand suffers for it. But they can choose whichever is more advantageous. But I might make it cost $4 just because the set is hemorrhaging $4 cards and has way too may $3 cards. For $3 right now, it has (new) Bookkeeper, Convoy, Floodgate, Gambler, Mill Town, Refurbish, and Tinker. Assuming I remove the old Committee, it has Craftsman, Dignitary, Profiteer, and Terrace at $4. Bookkeeper and Tinker would probably be fine at $4, although I kind of like Tinker at $3. Refurbish has always been a prime candidate for cutting just because it's 100% off-theme. As much as it saddens me, Mill Town could also be cut. It's a fine card, but the set has a lot of villages (Jubilee, Mill Town, Terrace, General), and Mill Town is the one I need the least.

Conquest is a potential Axeman replacement. I may try a cheaper ($4?) Barrister that makes players trash Domains from their hand.

You could always stick a +Buy on Bookkeeper to justify the cost of $4. But then it's the Woodcutter dilemma again - everything resembling Woodcutter looks like it would suck. Of course, that notion is ill-founded, we've been over that, but man, people are superficial!

I kinda like Refurbish but it would also be the first $3 I'd cut. But don't cut Mill Town! I never played with it but it seems to have a good synergy with several of your other cards and I like that your set is so cohesive.

I'm also against changing Barrister, FWIW. Right now the card is a powerful Thief variant, and the Domains are just the cherry on the cake. Well, I can see how you'd want to put the focus more on Domains again but if it targets only those, I think it should be very efficient in finding those in your opponents' decks or hands.

I'll keep the $4 to $7 option in mind. I do worry that it's easier to trash Provinces with, though. One Highway is all you'd need.

Highway, why do you have to make everything associated with cost so complicated? You could also do $4 to $6. I just said $4 to $7 because you wrote elsewhere that upon developing cards you should always try the crazy version first^^
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #793 on: February 27, 2015, 09:44:56 am »
+1

OK, screw this Copper-mucking nonsense. Time for something basic. Here's the version I plan to print for testing on Friday. It's like Magistrate, but allows the targets to discard Copper and doesn't require a choice on the part of the attacking player.



Quote
Bookkeeper
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
+$2. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand reveals one of them. If it's an Action or Treasure, he discards it. Otherwise, he puts it on top of his deck.

Yes it will sometimes be Cutpurse, but hey it costs $3. And the victim may choose to e.g. topdeck an Estate if he doesn't want to be down $1 in hand. I'm hoping it'll give the targets interesting options, especially in the later game when they may not have a Copper to discard.

This version sounds weak. I mean, sure it can be as good as Cutpurse on some turns, but then when your opponent draws 2 terminals and no villages, this card just saves them. Sure, Ghost Ship can save you from a bad hand too, but it's really painful the rest of the time.

*Edit* Just read CookieLord's comments on it, and he makes good points too. So I could be completely wrong.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 09:47:24 am by GendoIkari »
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pacovf

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #794 on: February 27, 2015, 09:58:18 am »
+2

This version sounds weak. I mean, sure it can be as good as Cutpurse on some turns, but then when your opponent draws 2 terminals and no villages, this card just saves them. Sure, Ghost Ship can save you from a bad hand too, but it's really painful the rest of the time.

*Edit* Just read CookieLord's comments on it, and he makes good points too. So I could be completely wrong.

Bookkeeper doesn't top deck action cards though.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #795 on: February 27, 2015, 10:25:20 am »
+1

If your opponent has a dead terminal, Bookkeeper whiffs, but it's no worse than Cutpurse without Coppers, or Militia with two dead cards. A hand of two terminals, two Silvers, and a Victory card laughs at all three.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #796 on: February 27, 2015, 11:14:03 am »
+2

If your opponent has a dead terminal, Bookkeeper whiffs, but it's no worse than Cutpurse without Coppers, or Militia with two dead cards. A hand of two terminals, two Silvers, and a Victory card laughs at all three.

Which is why Bureaucrat is the best card in Dominion.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #797 on: February 27, 2015, 01:24:19 pm »
0

This version sounds weak. I mean, sure it can be as good as Cutpurse on some turns, but then when your opponent draws 2 terminals and no villages, this card just saves them. Sure, Ghost Ship can save you from a bad hand too, but it's really painful the rest of the time.

*Edit* Just read CookieLord's comments on it, and he makes good points too. So I could be completely wrong.

Bookkeeper doesn't top deck action cards though.

Oops! Never mind then!
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #798 on: February 27, 2015, 01:26:52 pm »
0

If your opponent has a dead terminal, Bookkeeper whiffs, but it's no worse than Cutpurse without Coppers, or Militia with two dead cards. A hand of two terminals, two Silvers, and a Victory card laughs at all three.

Which is why Bureaucrat is the best card in Dominion.

A hand of 5 Golds (with no Colonies in the game) laughs at Cutpurse, Militia, Bookkeeper, AND Bureaucrat. And laughs extra-hard at Ghost Ship. And just so that you can laugh at Minion as well; your next 4 cards are Gold also.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #799 on: February 27, 2015, 01:49:36 pm »
0

If your opponent has a dead terminal, Bookkeeper whiffs, but it's no worse than Cutpurse without Coppers, or Militia with two dead cards. A hand of two terminals, two Silvers, and a Victory card laughs at all three.

Which is why Bureaucrat is the best card in Dominion.

A hand of 5 Golds (with no Colonies in the game) laughs at Cutpurse, Militia, Bookkeeper, AND Bureaucrat. And laughs extra-hard at Ghost Ship. And just so that you can laugh at Minion as well; your next 4 cards are Gold also.

Axeman!

Actually, Taxman too tbh.
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