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Author Topic: Dominion: Enterprise  (Read 412274 times)

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KingZog3

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #450 on: July 18, 2014, 09:51:57 pm »
+1

Hey LF if you're still looking for extra cards to fill in missing slots I have a suggestion that fits in pretty well with the one-shot theme. How about a one-shot trasher that itself takes a one-shot resource to gain. You could call it something thematic, like bomb, or something.

I came here to post exactly this. ninja'd before I even thought about it.

Take it outside, gentlemen. :) I think that dead horse has been beaten enough.

Well to be fair, I thought of it once I was here. So it wasn't my actual intention to being with.

On a constructive note, I too like the look of the new barrister. I don't think the attack needs to be crazy focuses on Domain. It's already a big change having a $3 cards in your starting deck. It changes a significant number of cards, especially TfB. Develop, Salvager and Remodel get a big boost by having that option from the start.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #451 on: July 20, 2014, 11:35:33 pm »
0

Just played a 2-player game where the Black Market deck was one of each Enterprise card and I bought the Barrister from it. I managed to steal my opponent's Domain with the first play. I stole a Gold with the second play and got a consolation Silver with the third. The final score was 33 to 31, my lead. I lost the Province split 5 to 3, but had 2 Duchies and 5 Estates, so the stolen Domain put me over the top. So far I like this new version of Barrister a lot.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #452 on: July 22, 2014, 11:36:00 am »
0

Some people have trouble parsing Redistrict. I'm considering simplifying it so that you effectively must use the one-shot effect, since that's usually what you're doing anyway.

Quote
Redistrict
Types: Action
Cost: $2
Trash this. Trash a card from your hand; gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it and a card costing exactly $2 more than it, in either order.

Thoughts? It's worse for trashing Coppers and Curses, but you can use it as a one-shot Remodel from $6 to $8 even if there's no $7 card on the board. I'm not sure I love those changes, but again this version should be much easier to understand. People were having trouble getting what "the first gained card" meant.

Alternatively, if you have a better wording that doesn't change the effect, that would be great.
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Minotaur

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #453 on: July 22, 2014, 11:55:16 am »
+2

Some people have trouble parsing Redistrict. I'm considering simplifying it so that you effectively must use the one-shot effect, since that's usually what you're doing anyway.

Quote
Redistrict
Types: Action
Cost: $2
Trash this. Trash a card from your hand; gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it and a card costing exactly $2 more than it, in either order.

Thoughts? It's worse for trashing Coppers and Curses, but you can use it as a one-shot Remodel from $6 to $8 even if there's no $7 card on the board. I'm not sure I love those changes, but again this version should be much easier to understand. People were having trouble getting what "the first gained card" meant.

Alternatively, if you have a better wording that doesn't change the effect, that would be great.

This card is significantly weaker, and I thought the original was clear enough.  On a 3-4 opening, I'd rather not have to trash Redistrict to gain a $4 card if on my next shuffle I could gain a $5 card and a Gold for a $4 card.  If you don't have strong $4 cards on the board, a first-shuffle Redistrict is a gamble on your two cards colliding.  I guess the new one could be stronger if there are gaps in the cost scheme, though.

In junk-free games, you tend to need trashing for a while, and then you don't, so having the one-shot be optional could be nice. This is probably a very bad card for getting rid of coppers in any case - you'd probably rather use it on three Estates if you're not using the one-shot.  There's not necessarily anything wrong with the potential to hit a gap in the cost scale, but if you really want a one-shot Gold-to-Province option, you have to use the modified version, or a reworked version of the original card which makes no direct reference to the "$1 more" card.

If you wanted this card to be a good "$10 and two buys" option, then I guess either the new version or a "best of both worlds" version would work.  (Gain a card costing $1 more, and trash to gain a card costing $2 more)
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #454 on: July 22, 2014, 12:00:05 pm »
+2

I'm having trouble understanding how the original wording isn't clear.

Quote
People were having trouble getting what "the first gained card" meant.

it means the first gained card. buh?

well, you can always do

Quote
trash a card from your hand. choose one: gain a card costing exactly 1$ more than the trashed card; or trash this and gain a card costing exactly 1$ more than it, and a card costing exactly 2$ more than it, in either order

oh and this should work too:

Quote
trash a card from your hand. gain a card costing exactly 1$ more than it.

You may trash this. if you do, also gain a card costing exactly 2$ more than it.
that's closer to the original wording, and probably a little bit shorter than the choose wording. you could also replace the last "it" with "the trashed card", to make it completely clear.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 12:10:36 pm by silverspawn »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #455 on: July 22, 2014, 12:39:55 pm »
+1

I'm having trouble understanding how the original wording isn't clear.

Quote
People were having trouble getting what "the first gained card" meant.

it means the first gained card. buh?

well, you can always do

Quote
trash a card from your hand. choose one: gain a card costing exactly 1$ more than the trashed card; or trash this and gain a card costing exactly 1$ more than it, and a card costing exactly 2$ more than it, in either order

oh and this should work too:

Quote
trash a card from your hand. gain a card costing exactly 1$ more than it.

You may trash this. if you do, also gain a card costing exactly 2$ more than it.
that's closer to the original wording, and probably a little bit shorter than the choose wording. you could also replace the last "it" with "the trashed card", to make it completely clear.

Though I think the wording is correct; it could be a bit confusing to people who think that "it" means "this"... after all, Redistrict was the last card talked about, not the original trashed card. And you can't just say "the trashed card" either, because Redistrict is now a trashed card as well.

But I do agree that it's better to refer to the cost as $2 more than the trashed card rather than $1 more than the gained card.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 12:41:00 pm by GendoIkari »
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Minotaur

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #456 on: July 22, 2014, 03:04:51 pm »
+1

If you reveal a card and then trash it, then it can be "the revealed card" from then on.  It's sort of silly, but it works and the language is already used a lot otherwise.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #457 on: July 22, 2014, 03:12:48 pm »
+1

If you reveal a card and then trash it, then it can be "the revealed card" from then on.  It's sort of silly, but it works and the language is already used a lot otherwise.

I had considered this. It seems workable, but stilted. I suppose I could say, "Choose a card," since the card gets revealed automatically when you trash it.

Quote
Redistrict
Types: Action
Cost: $2
Choose a card in your hand. Trash it and gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it. You may trash this. If you do, gain a card costing exactly $2 more than the chosen card.

How does that look?
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #458 on: July 22, 2014, 03:30:48 pm »
+2

it looks fine to me, but the original wording also looked fine to me, so i'm probably not the right one to judge it

LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #459 on: July 22, 2014, 03:37:22 pm »
0

If you reveal a card and then trash it, then it can be "the revealed card" from then on.  It's sort of silly, but it works and the language is already used a lot otherwise.

I had considered this. It seems workable, but stilted. I suppose I could say, "Choose a card," since the card gets revealed automatically when you trash it.

Quote
Redistrict
Types: Action
Cost: $2
Choose a card in your hand. Trash it and gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it. You may trash this. If you do, gain a card costing exactly $2 more than the chosen card.

How does that look?

Right, I just remembered why I didn't do this in the first place. I didn't want people to be able to run out the Redistrict pile by Redistricting Coppers into Redistricts. Maybe it's not so bad, though. Probably I should test it this way.
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Minotaur

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #460 on: July 22, 2014, 03:42:45 pm »
+1

If you reveal a card and then trash it, then it can be "the revealed card" from then on.  It's sort of silly, but it works and the language is already used a lot otherwise.

I had considered this. It seems workable, but stilted. I suppose I could say, "Choose a card," since the card gets revealed automatically when you trash it.

Yeah, that doesn't look as contrived.  It's tempting to just say "let X be a chosen card from your hand (having whatever properties required by your new card)" sometimes...
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #461 on: July 22, 2014, 03:46:37 pm »
+1

Quote
Right, I just remembered why I didn't do this in the first place. I didn't want people to be able to run out the Redistrict pile by Redistricting Coppers into Redistricts. Maybe it's not so bad, though. Probably I should test it this way.

so, you redistrict a copper. now you can either gain nothing, or trash the redistrict and gain another redistrict. both doesn't get you anything except that there'll be ones less redistrict in the supply with option 2. but i doubt that using a terminal trasher without any benefit on a copper is ever attractive enough for people to do this just to drive down one pile. I don't think it's going to be a problem at all.

LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #462 on: July 22, 2014, 03:56:55 pm »
0

Quote
Right, I just remembered why I didn't do this in the first place. I didn't want people to be able to run out the Redistrict pile by Redistricting Coppers into Redistricts. Maybe it's not so bad, though. Probably I should test it this way.

so, you redistrict a copper. now you can either gain nothing, or trash the redistrict and gain another redistrict. both doesn't get you anything except that there'll be ones less redistrict in the supply with option 2. but i doubt that using a terminal trasher without any benefit on a copper is ever attractive enough for people to do this just to drive down one pile. I don't think it's going to be a problem at all.

I think your'e probably right. It's more like, if you're going to trash a Copper anyway, you have the option of hastening the game's end by trashing a Redistrict from the Supply. But I barely even trash Copper with Redistrict, so I'm probably worrying about nothing.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #463 on: July 25, 2014, 04:23:18 pm »
+1

Quote
Right, I just remembered why I didn't do this in the first place. I didn't want people to be able to run out the Redistrict pile by Redistricting Coppers into Redistricts. Maybe it's not so bad, though. Probably I should test it this way.

so, you redistrict a copper. now you can either gain nothing, or trash the redistrict and gain another redistrict. both doesn't get you anything except that there'll be ones less redistrict in the supply with option 2. but i doubt that using a terminal trasher without any benefit on a copper is ever attractive enough for people to do this just to drive down one pile. I don't think it's going to be a problem at all.

I think your'e probably right. It's more like, if you're going to trash a Copper anyway, you have the option of hastening the game's end by trashing a Redistrict from the Supply. But I barely even trash Copper with Redistrict, so I'm probably worrying about nothing.

If Poor House is in the Supply, you can do this anyway. Of course, that's going to come up way less often, both because it won't be in the Kingdom with Poor House that often, and also because if it is, you are less likely to trash copper.

I agree that it's a sort of weird thing to basically be given the choice "you may trash one of these cards from the supply". But not weird enough to avoid the otherwise-clearest wording, whatever that may be.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #464 on: July 25, 2014, 04:26:35 pm »
0

If Poor House is in the Supply, you can do this anyway. Of course, that's going to come up way less often, both because it won't be in the Kingdom with Poor House that often, and also because if it is, you are less likely to trash copper.

Agreed on all points.

I agree that it's a sort of weird thing to basically be given the choice "you may trash one of these cards from the supply". But not weird enough to avoid the otherwise-clearest wording, whatever that may be.

It's a problem that plagues all one-shot remodel variants, or at least all the ones I've tried. I think that you're right, though. I'll test it and see if it's actually a problem, but I'd be surprised if it is.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #465 on: July 25, 2014, 04:32:46 pm »
+1

If Poor House is in the Supply, you can do this anyway. Of course, that's going to come up way less often, both because it won't be in the Kingdom with Poor House that often, and also because if it is, you are less likely to trash copper.

Agreed on all points.

I agree that it's a sort of weird thing to basically be given the choice "you may trash one of these cards from the supply". But not weird enough to avoid the otherwise-clearest wording, whatever that may be.

It's a problem that plagues all one-shot remodel variants, or at least all the ones I've tried. I think that you're right, though. I'll test it and see if it's actually a problem, but I'd be surprised if it is.

Just thought of something else... the choice you're making isn't simply "yes or no: decrease the supply by 1?" Because choosing "yes" also means that you are losing out on using the one-shot effect to get a better $2 card. It's only if you've already decided to 1) trash a Copper/Curse and 2) decided to not remodel itself to get another $2 card that you have that choice to make.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #466 on: July 29, 2014, 05:01:24 pm »
+3

I didn't see a problem with Redistrict's original wording, either. I agree with Silverspawn on all points here. Good alternative wordings have been suggested, so there should be no need to change how the card works.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #467 on: July 29, 2014, 05:10:00 pm »
0

I didn't see a problem with Redistrict's original wording, either. I agree with Silverspawn on all points here. Good alternative wordings have been suggested, so there should be no need to change how the card works.

Agree. I'm going to go for this…

Quote
Redistrict
Types: Action
Cost: $2
Choose a card in your hand. Trash it and gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it. You may trash this. If you do, gain a card costing exactly $2 more than the chosen card.

…which is extremely close to how it works now. The difference is that you can use it as a one-shot Remodel if you want to. Usually that'll only matter for Gold -> Province.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #468 on: July 29, 2014, 05:22:49 pm »
0

Very good! I have a question: how did you embed the images of your cards into your post so that text can be placed in between? Did you upload them somewhere else and then display them here?
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #469 on: July 29, 2014, 05:31:35 pm »
0

Very good! I have a question: how did you embed the images of your cards into your post so that text can be placed in between? Did you upload them somewhere else and then display them here?

Yes! They are on imgur.com.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #470 on: September 06, 2014, 01:18:15 am »
+1

Hola, amigos. I know it's been a long time since I rapped at ya, but things have been pretty crazy around here. Haven't had much time for playtesting Enterprise. But I got to thinking about Conscripts today. The old version (in the OP) is this:

Quote
Conscripts
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $0*
+1 Action. +$2. Return this to the Conscripts pile. Each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand. If he did not discard any cards, he gains a Curse. (This is not in the Supply.)

I liked this version because it pushed the "dig for an Attack" option of Barracks, making you want to match up your Conscripts. But the problem with it is that discarding down to 3 cards makes it too difficult to deal with the Curses you get. So I sadly mocked up this version, which I didn't yet get the chance to test:

Quote
Conscripts
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: 0*
+1 Action. +$2. Return this to the Conscripts pile. Each other player gains a Curse. (This is not in the Supply.)

But today I was thinking of how to push matching up Conscripts without making it too harsh. One obvious path is, "If you have another Conscripts in play, each other player gains a Curse", but whoops, it's a one-shot. "If you have another Attack in play" is better yet, but most Attacks are terminal, making this too much of a pain to pull off (and requiring a village). But today I realized I could make the returning to the Supply itself contingent on giving out a Curse, so Conscripts that don't give out Curses just stick around until you match them up. So:

Quote
Conscripts
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: 0*
+1 Action. +$2. If you have another Attack card in play, return this to the Supply and each other player gains a Curse. (This is not in the Supply.)

Hmm, but that has the same problem with needing to play a possibly terminal Attack first. I mean it works fine with other Conscripts, but it's better to push the combos, you know? How about:

Quote
Conscripts
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: 0*
+1 Action. +$2.

When you play another Attack card with this in play, you may return this to the Conscripts pile. If you do, each other player gains a Curse. (This is not in the Supply.)

A bit like Urchin. But crap! This is (at best) confusing with Moat because the actual Attack part doesn't happen on-play. Let's turn it around!



Quote
Conscripts
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: 0*
+1 Action. +$2.
You may reveal an Attack card from your hand. If you do, return this to the Conscripts pile and each other player gains a Curse. (This is not in the Supply.)

This is where I've landed. You have to back the Conscripts up with another Attack if you want them to fight! I like this version, but I'd really like to hear your opinions about it.

I'm also considering changing Barracks to cost $4 and gain only one Conscripts. It gives two because otherwise you're way more likely to gain Conscripts every time you play it (and because at the time it changed to gaining 2 it was super weak at gaining 1). Giving two pushes the digging. But if Conscripts sticks around when it whiffs, this is less of a concern. You'd probably want at least 2 Barracks, but hey it only costs $4. The biggest reason I'm considering it is that it seems a bit lame to have a $5 card that digs for another $5 (or cheaper) Attack. I mean it has its uses, but it's not the best. Obviously it's the Conscripts gain option that makes it strong enough to cost $5, but yeah. It might be worth trying the cheaper version.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 01:25:47 am by LastFootnote »
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pacovf

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #471 on: September 06, 2014, 07:44:15 am »
+1

I really like this new version of Conscripts!

I don't really understand why you are changing barracks, though.

A random idea I just had. Have you thought about making barracks look for an attack in the discard pile, instead of digging for one? You get a better pick of the attack you get (which makes it combo a bit better with other attack cards in the supply), but if you draw it early in your shuffle it whiffs. I would balance that by gaining conscripts on top of deck instead of the discard pile. These are actually two different ideas, now that I think about it. Don't really know why I am mentioning this, but I guess it can't hurt.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #472 on: September 06, 2014, 01:41:00 pm »
0

I really like this new version of Conscripts!

I don't really understand why you are changing barracks, though.

A random idea I just had. Have you thought about making barracks look for an attack in the discard pile, instead of digging for one? You get a better pick of the attack you get (which makes it combo a bit better with other attack cards in the supply), but if you draw it early in your shuffle it whiffs. I would balance that by gaining conscripts on top of deck instead of the discard pile. These are actually two different ideas, now that I think about it. Don't really know why I am mentioning this, but I guess it can't hurt.

To be clear, I'm not for sure changing Barracks. I'm just brainstorming.

I think avoiding digging is a goal worth pursuing. Putting two gained Conscripts on top of your deck kind of defeats part of the point, since they automatically connect with each other that way. But the idea of looking through the discard pile is worth considering. But you know what would be even faster? Just gaining an Attack directly to your hand. Think how much simpler that would be:



Quote
Barracks
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Gain a Conscripts from the Conscripts pile, putting it into your hand.

Yowza, that's elegant! Of course, it mostly abandons the original premise of digging for an Attack. But if I'm honest with myself, Conscripts are really what Barracks are mostly about. This version of Barracks wouldn't have been possible with the older versions of Conscripts that always attacked, but it seems doable with this version. With the digging, you still had to connect Barracks itself with another Attack, and this version preserves that. If you don't connect, your Conscripts hangs out in your deck until it connects with a Barracks, another Conscripts, or any other Attack.

Of course, this heavily overlaps with Recruiter. But what if Recruiter took over the Attack-finding effect that we'd be abandoning with Barracks? We can use your suggested discard pile mechanic.



Quote
Recruiter
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $4
+$1. Gain 2 Silvers.

When another player plays an Attack card, you may discard this. If you do, put your deck into your discard pile and look through your discard pile. You may reveal an Attack card from it and put it into your hand.

Wow that is wordy. The top is just a placeholder. It could just be "Gain 2 Conscripts from the Conscripts pile", although part of me wants to re-limit Conscripts to Barracks in order to limit the amount of Cursing in the set. But regardless the bottom might be worth testing. Although it's wordy, it should be fairly easy to remember. Opinions?
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Nic

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #473 on: September 06, 2014, 10:14:21 pm »
+1

I think avoiding digging is a goal worth pursuing. Putting two gained Conscripts on top of your deck kind of defeats part of the point, since they automatically connect with each other that way. But the idea of looking through the discard pile is worth considering. But you know what would be even faster? Just gaining an Attack directly to your hand. Think how much simpler that would be:

Quote
Barracks
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Gain a Conscripts from the Conscripts pile, putting it into your hand.

So, +1 Action, +$2 & gain a Conscript / strong attack? I feel like that compares too favorably with Minion.

I think I was making the most noise earlier in the thread about the revised Conscripts being too boring, but that was before  I played IRL games with these cards. The Kingdom cards are necessarily wordy and refer to unfamiliar components, and that can be a big hurdle for new players. If you're adding an 11th or 12th pile to the table on top of that, then something like Treasure - $3 should be the ideal amount you have to read. As it is, Conscripts is succinct, useful, and adds strategic depth to Dominion. Maybe the thematic combo isn't what it needs. If there's a way to simplify Barracks on its own, that's worth exploring, but otherwise my opinion is firmly in favor of the status quo.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #474 on: September 06, 2014, 11:51:47 pm »
0

So, +1 Action, +$2 & gain a Conscript / strong attack? I feel like that compares too favorably with Minion.

Well, bear in mind that unless you connect it with another Attack, your opponent isn't affected at all by the new Conscripts. In games without Baker, you can't open Barracks/Attack. What I'm trying to say is that the attack is still delayed. This would be a buff to Barracks, but Conscripts just got nerfed.

I think I was making the most noise earlier in the thread about the revised Conscripts being too boring, but that was before  I played IRL games with these cards. The Kingdom cards are necessarily wordy and refer to unfamiliar components, and that can be a big hurdle for new players. If you're adding an 11th or 12th pile to the table on top of that, then something like Treasure - $3 should be the ideal amount you have to read. As it is, Conscripts is succinct, useful, and adds strategic depth to Dominion. Maybe the thematic combo isn't what it needs. If there's a way to simplify Barracks on its own, that's worth exploring, but otherwise my opinion is firmly in favor of the status quo.

To be clear, I'm not proposing this change to Conscripts in order for it to be more thematic. That's a cute bonus, but not my intent. Really the intent behind the original Barracks is to interact with Attack cards. With these proposed changes, that interaction shifts to Conscripts, but the idea is still there. You care more about having Attacks.

I agree that simpler is better, but if we're just looking at Barracks and Conscripts, I think these changes make the cards simpler in total. Conscripts is a bit more complex, but not overwhelmingly so. And Barracks is way simpler. So with Barracks on the table, complexity is down and I don't think that the fact the complexity has shifted to Conscripts really matters.

The proposed Recruiter, on the other hand, is a wall of text. I am sympathetic to complaints that Recruiter + Conscripts is more words than it's worth. It's more complex than Urchin/Mercenary or Hermit/Madman. One way I could simplify Recruiter is to not have the reaction put your deck into your discard pile. I'm afraid that'll make it whiff too often, but it's worth a try.

The real upshot is: I really liked that the version of Conscripts in the OP didn't give out Curses every time you played it. The current version of Barracks and the simplest version of Conscripts (+1 Action; +$2; Return this; Each other player gains a Curse) starts slow, but then gives out Curses really rapidly. The version in the OP fixes that, but has the problem of being way too oppressive with the discard attack. This new version of Conscripts is my attempt at fixing the oppressiveness while still making you want to play multiple Conscripts in the same hand. But now instead of just comboing with each other, Conscripts can combo with any Attack card, which is fantastic. That's more or less the interaction that Barracks was trying to have in the first place.
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