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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #325 on: April 15, 2014, 12:30:39 pm »
0

I'm fairly convinced that this is a bad idea. I've played with investment, and the big problem we had is that you have to kill one of your action cards to make it work. 3 player means that, even if you "win" a 4/3/3 split, you just have 4 of them, and if you invest in one you just have 3, that just doesn't seem to be worth it. you can just buy two treasuries and probably get more +$ every turn

 it's possible that not every player wants that specific action card, but i dare saying that if all players know what they're doing, this will be an exception. and if killing one card hurts, killing more than one will hurt like crazy.  also, you'd have to make the card weaker in order to balance it for the situations where it would be useful, so it becomes even more situational, which I think is a bad thing. and lastly it wouldn't fit the set theme anymore.

Really, this is all a good argument for scrapping Investment altogether. With more than 2 players, you're way less likely to be able to use it effectively. I might try the global version that puts a marker on a pile, but for now I'm taking it out of the set and trying to brainstorm replacements.

Cards that grant different numbers of actions can be hard to track. With this version you have to remember whether you used it for the +1 action. Would it be too strong if it always gave +1 Action? As in:

+1 Action. You may spend a Trade token. If you do, gain a card costing up to $5. Otherwise, +1 Card, and take a Trade token.

Edit: One possible problem with it giving +1 Action all the time is that it may be too good at gaining Duchies. A connected Tournament and Rebuild are the only nonterminals I can think of that gain Duchies.

I think it would be too strong if it always gave +1 Action and sometimes gave +1 Card. Maybe not.

In a perfect world, all cards would be designed without necessary tracking. For example, I made certain that Guide specifically has no tracking involved because you can play the same copy any number of times. In general, having no tracking really limits you, though. I do keep it in mind when designing cards, but of all the things to track, the number of Actions you have left is the most common anyway. As stated by others, lots of cards already give a variable number of Actions.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #326 on: April 15, 2014, 04:27:36 pm »
+1

What was wrong with the old Craftsman, with the formula?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #327 on: April 15, 2014, 05:56:18 pm »
+2

What was wrong with the old Craftsman, with the formula?

Short Answer: There was a complaint (in this very thread) that it was too complex mathematically for a Dominion card. It is worse than Butcher, which is pretty complex. Also, a complaint that the set had too many cards that could gain cards costing up to some value that was dependent on some other value.

Long Answer: The long answer is the same as the short answer, but there's more. Normally I don't radically change a card just because of a couple of complaints (unless it's already a dud, in which case I'm going to revamp or scrap it anyway). As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the old Craftsman basically creates an alternate, parallel currency where 1 Trade token is worth slightly more than $2. That's certainly novel, but not so very compelling. The new version has several advantages.

• Simpler to understand (no formula).
• You never gain a token and spend it right away, making your tokens easier to track.
• Now Mill Town is the set's only variable-ceiling gainer (not counting remodel variants).
• It's even better for enabling other Trade token cards (because you get +1 Card).

It also has disadvantages:

• Less flexible.
• No longer allows for very cheap Jubilee and Guide gains (although it still supplements those cards nicely).

Overall, I think I like the new version better, but I haven't tested it yet. Not much testing in general recently, unfortunately.

Also, here's the version of Windfall I actually printed for testing:

Quote
Windfall
Types: Action
Cost: $6
+1 Buy. Choose one: Reveal then discard any number of Victory cards from your hand and +$2 per card discarded; or gain a Silver per Action card you have in play (counting this).

Although I do want more Trade token cards rather than fewer, it just seemed to have too many moving parts the old way. The "choose one" seems simpler to me. It's very possible the card's a dud any way you slice it, but I'm going to try to playtest this version.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #328 on: April 15, 2014, 11:42:59 pm »
+1

I liked the old Craftsman, and I don't buy any arguments about complexity (I don't think any person that's ever visited these forums has trouble counting odd numbers) but thematically it was probably a bit too close to "trade tokens being exchanged for money". The new version is even more distant from coin tokens, which is good.

Hopefully I'll get some testing happening over Easter (of both this and my own set). It's very rare that I'm anywhere near a physical copy of Dominion.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #329 on: April 16, 2014, 11:41:02 am »
0

Again, these have yet to be playtested, but here they are for those who are interested.

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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #330 on: April 16, 2014, 01:08:29 pm »
+1

that's interesting... now it has similarities to feast.

let me compare some openings:

silver/silver: 15% to get to $5 twice, 91% to get to $5 once. cards left in your deck: silver/silver
silver/feast: 29% to get to $5 twice, 95% to get to $5 once. cards left in your deck: silver
craftsman/jubilee: 29% to get to $5 twice, 95% to get to $5 once. cards left in your deck: craftsman

so it's identical to silver/feast except that you get to keep the craftsman instead of the silver. that's definitely preferable on some boards, depending on what the $5's are.

e: another possible opening is craftsman/guide. that will also guarantee you a 5$, and leave both cards in your deck. problem is they might collide, worst case is you draw craftsman with guide and don't get anything.

too bad terrace doesn't cost 3$, that would be an amazing opener
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 01:13:45 pm by silverspawn »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #331 on: April 16, 2014, 04:29:39 pm »
0

I have admired your enterprise set for a while now and I'm glad that I finally find the time to give you my opinion on it now. I hope it can be of some value to you. I'll start with the card that I find interesting, amazing, and would love to playtest with friends:

Sorry I missed responding to this earlier!

Barrister and Domain: One of the first cards that come to my mind when I think of your set (Domain, specifically), because it shapes the game in a unique way. Games with four or more players would get really crazy and start out as a Barrister-war, similarly to Ambassador-war, and with increasing deck sizes, the attacks become less likely to hit. But you still want all those Domains, so you keep playing those Barristers. That one hit in the endgame could make a huge VP difference, which keeps it exciting. I just love the idea, and I really hope it plays out well.

Thanks! I'm glad you like the idea. So far in testing it's been OK. Maybe not a standout, but not problematic. I think it's really a card where the amount of fun you have with it is proportional to how cool you think the idea is. It's definitely fun when you successfully steal somebody else's Domain(s), especially when you've been trying for a while.

I like most other cards as well, but I also agree with tripwire on most points.

I can see the reason for the complaints about Convocation, but the idea in itself it neat enough. A deck where it might be worse than a Lab would be an engine that does not draw your whole deck - you would often discard a potentially good action card. Otherwise it's just a very good card. Maybe you could nerf the card a little by giving a small boon to your opponents when you play it. Or perhaps make it a "bad Smithy" by strinking the +Action and reducing the cost to 3?

Of those two ideas, I like giving the bonus to your opponent more. However, the card is already pretty wordy. I'll probably test it more as-is and try to think of other fixes/replacements.

Recruiter and Conscripts: First off, Conscripts is a cool one-shot attack, an even meaner Torturer variant for the attacking part. However, I imagine this would make it very frustrating eventually, especially in a multiplayer game where "revenge" becomes the prevailing theme, to the point where everyone is stalling hard with curses. I think Recuiter might be a bit too fast in gaining Conscripts, for it being such a powerful card, even for a one-shot. But I should playtest this first. I might be mistaken.

Recruiter definitely needs much more playtesting. Although some (like you) think it might get too crazy with Curses too quickly, others (like Fragasnap) think it won't hand out Curses well enough. Hopefully it's somewhere in between. I already have Barracks for when you absolutely must play a bunch of Conscripts each turn, so I'd prefer that Recruiter be a scaled-back version of Conscripts gaining in most cases.

I played one 3-player game with both Throne Room and Recruiter. That got insane. Probably General is even worse, although at least that costs $5.

I that it's not ideal that the same card gives Curses and makes you discard, because it makes it harder to trash those Curses from your hand. Torturer also does this, of course, buy it never forces you to discard. For what it's worth, a lot of this set's deck thinning trashes cards that aren't in your hand (Gambler, Committee). But I often think that having two cards that gain Conscripts is too much. Long story short: Recruiter may or may not stick around.

I look forward to playtest some of your cards in the future. Would you like to hear some reports then? Are the black and white stars still up-to-date?

Yes, I try to keep the stars up to date. If you do end up playtesting cards, I always appreciate feedback! I am continually floored that people want to print and play with my cards (cutting and sleeving can be long and dull). The more feedback I get from playtesters, the better I can make this set.

EDIT: Barrister's text is missing the term "in any order" after "and puts the rest on top". I know the card is wordy enough, but it just doesn't feel right without it.

Yeah, I know. I'm hoping I can just add to the rulebook the rule that you can always choose which order to put multiple cards on your deck. Barrister and Dignitary just don't have a lot of extra room for that text, and it consistently works that way for all published cards.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #332 on: April 16, 2014, 04:31:51 pm »
0

that's interesting... now it has similarities to feast.

let me compare some openings:

silver/silver: 15% to get to $5 twice, 91% to get to $5 once. cards left in your deck: silver/silver
silver/feast: 29% to get to $5 twice, 95% to get to $5 once. cards left in your deck: silver
craftsman/jubilee: 29% to get to $5 twice, 95% to get to $5 once. cards left in your deck: craftsman

so it's identical to silver/feast except that you get to keep the craftsman instead of the silver. that's definitely preferable on some boards, depending on what the $5's are.

e: another possible opening is craftsman/guide. that will also guarantee you a 5$, and leave both cards in your deck. problem is they might collide, worst case is you draw craftsman with guide and don't get anything.

too bad terrace doesn't cost 3$, that would be an amazing opener

Man, Craftsman/Guide seems like potentially a pretty sweet opening. Probably not nuts, but definitely could be powerful as long as you can play Craftsman before Guide. It's a nice combo in general.
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tripwire

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #333 on: April 17, 2014, 01:37:35 am »
+1

I liked the old Craftsman, and I don't buy any arguments about complexity (I don't think any person that's ever visited these forums has trouble counting odd numbers)

My concern about the old Craftsman's complexity wasn't that people would have a hard time counting, it was more that the card didn't feel intuitive. The problem with that is that cards that aren't intuitive are more difficult to commit to memory quickly. The example I gave in my earlier post regarding Butcher demonstrates this issue. It's not that the people I play with can't figure out what Butcher does, it's that they have to re-read the card every time they play it. That makes the game much slower and less enjoyable for everyone, imo.

And, you're absolutely right that none of these things would be problems for the people who frequent these forums, but I doubt many people here regularly play with other forum members in real life. (maybe I'm wrong and you all hang out all the time...) Coupling that with the fact that these cards can only really be used irl, then it matters how the audience outside these forums would react to them.

Quote
Craftsman
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may spend a Trade token. If you do, gain a card costing up to $5. Otherwise, +1 Card, +1 Action, and take a Trade token

Although this card lacks some of the flexibility of the original version, I like it much better. In addition to addressing my concerns, this new Craftsman just has much more of its own identity now. I also like how it works even better as a support card for other trade token strategies now. It definitely gets my vote, and I'll be interested to hear how playtests go with it. Kudos LastFootnote.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #334 on: April 20, 2014, 08:54:56 pm »
+1

Update: I think I'm going to change Conscripts again. It's just too brutal. When I first made it, my thought process was that the discard attack would hurt less once everybody had a bunch of Curses in their decks. This is sort of true, but always having a 3-card hand makes it really tough to trash those Curses and still do anything else with your turn. It's just too sloggy for it to be in every game with Barracks, let alone every game with Barracks OR Recruiter.

So I'm thinking of returning to a version that just straight-up hands out Curses. Perhaps I'll reverse the current card and make it do a milder attack once the Curses are gone. Maybe discard down to 4, maybe something else. I'm also considering returning from "+1 Action" to "you may play an Attack card from your hand".

Got to test the new version of Jubilee today (returns itself to the Supply instead of trashing itself). I think it's a good change. Also the new version of General seems good so far.

Also, I came up with another Trade token card. I didn't print it up in time to test it today, but I want to post it to get feedback about how interesting people think it is. If it's not too boring, I can tweak the balance later.

Quote
Broker (I'm not sold on this name.)
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. +1 Buy. +$2. You may spend a Trade token. If you don't, discard 2 cards.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, take a Trade token.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #335 on: April 20, 2014, 10:31:16 pm »
+1

Quote
Broker (I'm not sold on this name.)
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. +1 Buy. +$2. You may spend a Trade token. If you don't, discard 2 cards.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, take a Trade token.


Not a bad concept (the bottom, that is), although the way to get trade tokens with this card makes you less likely to want to use them (more cards worth discarding). Seems a bit counterintuitive. Is the idea to encourage (and mitigate the harms of) early greening? Spending a trade token on sifting would be ideal, instead of spending a trade token to draw instead of sift. Terrace already has that, and I like that card (although a full mulligan wouldn't be confused for optional sifting). You could do "+$X, discard Y cards, pay a trade token to draw to Z" - would that be stepping on Wheelwright's toes?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 10:33:58 pm by NoMoreFun »
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Fragasnap

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #336 on: April 21, 2014, 06:57:07 am »
+1

Quote
Broker (I'm not sold on this name.)
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. +1 Buy. +$2. You may spend a Trade token. If you don't, discard 2 cards.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, take a Trade token.
...Seems a bit counterintuitive. Is the idea to encourage (and mitigate the harms of) early greening?...
I played with a different custom card using this bottom-line effect (it was a drawer that would let you pull a card from your discard by spending a Trade token). It strikes me that the point of attaching it to not discarding may be to make it harder to stack its token gaining effect which was the reason the card I tested didn't work.

The idea looks fine. It's not very exciting though, which is always kind of a bummer for a $5 card.
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #337 on: April 21, 2014, 09:02:38 am »
+1

Quote
Broker (I'm not sold on this name.)
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. +1 Buy. +$2. You may spend a Trade token. If you don't, discard 2 cards.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, take a Trade token.

Well I'm sure you read my question about terminals with +x cards and +x$ and Donald's answer. That's not a reason not to do it, but he specifically described "+2 cards, +2$" as "strong and uninteresting". This is kind of a BM enabler, though it's really weak compared to vault, if you don't have a trade token it's actually stricktly worse save for the +buy. i like the bottom part, but the problem is that trade tokens aren't super exciting here. I don't really see this card being all that great in engines either.

in terms of powerlevel, I think it should at least give you a token to begin with. But it doesn't seem to be fun to me either way (though I could be wrong). The best usage is probably to produce tokens for other cards which get more out of them (i.e. probably almost every other card that uses them). But if you play with all sets, it's unlikely that such a card is even present, and that kind of ruins the value of trade tokens (because very often you won't care if you have to discard)

I could see the bottom part working on a different card.

e: actually that's not true, vault can help your opponent. still though, it seems a lot worse. with vault you need two silvers or one gold out of 6 cards to get to $8, this one either needs $6 in 6 cards, or $6 in the best 4 cards out of 6
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 09:08:55 am by silverspawn »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #338 on: April 21, 2014, 11:49:56 am »
0

The idea looks fine. It's not very exciting though, which is always kind of a bummer for a $5 card.

But it doesn't seem to be fun to me either way (though I could be wrong).

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was afraid of. Blerg. I'm having a heck of a time thinking of more good terminal $5 cards to fill two slots now that Investment is probably dead. I guess I could actually test Lodge, which I never did.

Perhaps the bottom here would work with a Cathedral-like card. I generally don't want to do one-shot Trade token trashing because it's just an autobuy and the pile would empty so fast, probably before people were done trashing. But if there is another way to get tokens instead of buying the card, that could be fine.

Quote
Cathedral
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards. +1 Buy. You may spend a Trade token. If you do, trash 2 cards from your hand.

While this is in play, when you buy a Victory card, take a Trade token.

Or something. This should eliminate the concern about Cathedral being too powerful as an opening because you can't use the trashing until at least turn 5. Unless you opened Cathedral/Jubilee, but that seems like a fine combo.

Not a bad concept (the bottom, that is), although the way to get trade tokens with this card makes you less likely to want to use them (more cards worth discarding). Seems a bit counterintuitive. Is the idea to encourage (and mitigate the harms of) early greening?

No, not exactly. It's more just a convenient way to gate the tokens. If it's "when you buy a card" or "when you buy an Action card", then you pretty much just get a token for each buy. "When you buy a Copper" and "when you buy a Curse" aren't much fun, and "when you buy a Treasure" leads to a boring deck. "When you buy a Victory card" is like "when you buy a Copper", but way better because you eventually want Victory cards in your deck. So it makes you play a bit differently than you otherwise might, it keeps you from going crazy with tokens, but it also doesn't make you buy cards that are strictly bad.

Spending a trade token on sifting would be ideal, instead of spending a trade token to draw instead of sift. Terrace already has that, and I like that card (although a full mulligan wouldn't be confused for optional sifting). You could do "+$X, discard Y cards, pay a trade token to draw to Z" - would that be stepping on Wheelwright's toes?

Wheelwright's toes and Guide's toes, I think. I don't really like Trade tokens for blind draw. Guide gets around that because you always know the two cards you'll be drawing if you spend the Trade token.

I played with a different custom card using this bottom-line effect (it was a drawer that would let you pull a card from your discard by spending a Trade token). It strikes me that the point of attaching it to not discarding may be to make it harder to stack its token gaining effect which was the reason the card I tested didn't work.

Could you go into more detail about why it didn't work? What was the card, exactly? It sounds interesting.
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markusin

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #339 on: April 21, 2014, 12:50:02 pm »
+1

Quote
Broker (I'm not sold on this name.)
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. +1 Buy. +$2. You may spend a Trade token. If you don't, discard 2 cards.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, take a Trade token.

I'm not sure how balanced this would be with the rest of your set, but have you considered something like:

Broker
Types: Action
Cost: $5
You may spend any number of Trade tokens. For each token you spend, +$2.
+2 Cards. +1 Buy.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, take a Trade token.

This variant seems like it would be really strong with mid-turn gainers like Workshop, but this is terminal so you'd have to work for that. The vanilla bonuses can probably be adjusted, but of course the real question is if it makes the card any more interesting. This version makes you spend the tokens before you draw and get full information, and adds the possibility of token saving similar to Merchant Guild.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #340 on: April 21, 2014, 01:28:00 pm »
0

I'm not sure how balanced this would be with the rest of your set, but have you considered something like:

Broker
Types: Action
Cost: $5
You may spend any number of Trade tokens. For each token you spend, +$2.
+2 Cards. +1 Buy.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, take a Trade token.

This variant seems like it would be really strong with mid-turn gainers like Workshop, but this is terminal so you'd have to work for that. The vanilla bonuses can probably be adjusted, but of course the real question is if it makes the card any more interesting. This version makes you spend the tokens before you draw and get full information, and adds the possibility of token saving similar to Merchant Guild.

I feel like a one-shot +$2 is Fund's schtick. Mining Village did it first, of course, but Fund and Mining Village are in different sets and they're different enough for that to be sufficient. I don't really want to have another Enterprise card do it if I can get away with it, though.

In general, I want players to be informed as possible about what they'll get when they trigger a one-shot ability. That's why I'm against Trade tokens for blind draw. Similarly, I'm not a fan of spending tokens for Coins and then drawing, such that you'll have to guess whether you actually needed those Coins. If you guessed wrong, you either wasted your token or you don't have enough Coins. Fund is way better than Mining Village in this way, since you almost always know how many Coins you have this turn when deciding whether to activate its effect.

There are two reasons I try to design cards this way. First, it makes for fewer times when the players feel like they wasted an ability due to a bad guess. That's no fun. Second, it makes the decision about whether to spend the ability more meaningful. Terrace is probably as far as I'm willing to go in the direction of blind results. With Terrace, you're often thinking, "My next 5 cards have got to be better than this" and you're usually right.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 02:32:35 pm by LastFootnote »
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #341 on: April 21, 2014, 02:28:45 pm »
+1

Quote
I'm having a heck of a time thinking of more good terminal $5 cards to fill two slots now that Investment is probably dead.

ok, this is probably not helpful, but... I got 4 5$'s for my set, and one of them might be useuful, though it's a terminal draw and you already got lodge (and it doesn't fit your theme). still, there is a slim chance you can use the idea for something.

Quote
Reveal your hand. +1 Card per differently priced card revealed that's worth between 3$ and 6$

the wording is tricky but the best I came up with, and I think it's clear what it does. there might be some way you can turn this into a trade token effect, like +x cards, you may pay a trade token, if you do reveal your hand, if you revealed Y differently priced cards, good stuff happens; if you gain this take a trade token.

so, if you happen to like the idea and haven't thought of it before, feel free to use it.

markusin

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #342 on: April 21, 2014, 02:30:42 pm »
+1

I'm not sure how balanced this would be with the rest of your set, but have you considered something like:

Broker
Types: Action
Cost: $5
You may spend any number of Trade tokens. For each token you spend, +$2.
+2 Cards. +1 Buy.

While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, take a Trade token.

This variant seems like it would be really strong with mid-turn gainers like Workshop, but this is terminal so you'd have to work for that. The vanilla bonuses can probably be adjusted, but of course the real question is if it makes the card any more interesting. This version makes you spend the tokens before you draw and get full information, and adds the possibility of token saving similar to Merchant Guild.

I feel like a one-shot +$2 is Fund's schtick. Mining Village did it first, of course, but Fund and Mining Village are in different sets and they're different enough for that to be sufficient. I don't really want to have another Enterprise card do it if I can get away with it, though.

In general, I want players to be informed as possible about what they'll get when they trigger a one-shot ability. That's why I'm against Trade tokens for blind draw. Similarly, I'm not a fan of spending tokens for Coins and then drawing, such that you'll have to guess whether you actually needed those Coins. If you guessed wrong, you either wasted your token or you don't have enough Coins. Fund is way better than Mining Village in this way, since you almost always know how many Coins you have this turn when deciding whether to activate its effect.

There are two reasons I try to design cards this way. First, it makes for fewer times when the players feel like they wasted an ability due to a bad guess. That's no fun. Second, it makes the decision about whether to spend the ability more meaningful. If players have to guess whether it's worth it to spend a token. Terrace is probably as far as I'm willing to go in the direction of blind results. With Terrace, you're often thinking, "My next 5 cards have got to be better than this" and you're usually right.
Fair enough. I forgot about Fund as well. I was thinking that it would be more thematic to have to invest trade tokens with incomplete information. But then, Mining Village can lead to all sorts of action paralysis.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #343 on: April 21, 2014, 02:35:28 pm »
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Quote
I'm having a heck of a time thinking of more good terminal $5 cards to fill two slots now that Investment is probably dead.

ok, this is probably not helpful, but... I got 4 5$'s for my set, and one of them might be useuful, though it's a terminal draw and you already got lodge (and it doesn't fit your theme). still, there is a slim chance you can use the idea for something.

Quote
Reveal your hand. +1 Card per differently priced card revealed that's worth between 3$ and 6$

the wording is tricky but the best I came up with, and I think it's clear what it does. there might be some way you can turn this into a trade token effect, like +x cards, you may pay a trade token, if you do reveal your hand, if you revealed Y differently priced cards, good stuff happens; if you gain this take a trade token.

so, if you happen to like the idea and haven't thought of it before, feel free to use it.

Lodge is the only card currently in the OP that I haven't tested at all. I printed it, but didn't cut or sleeve it. Comments here said it was too similar to Vault. I don't know whether that's true, but in terms of discard for Coins, I think I like Windfall better anyhow. The upshot is that Lodge effectively isn't in this set.

Thanks for the idea about checking costs. I'll think about whether I can work that into a cool token ability.
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Fragasnap

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #344 on: April 21, 2014, 02:39:17 pm »
+1

Quote
Cathedral
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards. +1 Buy. You may spend a Trade token. If you do, trash 2 cards from your hand.

While this is in play, when you buy a Victory card, take a Trade token.

Or something. This should eliminate the concern about Cathedral being too powerful as an opening because you can't use the trashing until at least turn 5. Unless you opened Cathedral/Jubilee, but that seems like a fine combo.
Remember that one of the big reasons Cathedral was a game decider was because it initially drew 4 cards. The difference between +3 Cards and +4 Cards is huge in any strategy. This way of acquiring Trade token looks weird since it is a gate rather than a synergy.
That +buy is kind of gross though. Look at it: It's just hanging there. You should do something about it before it gets infected.

In general, I want players to be informed as possible about what they'll get when they trigger a one-shot ability. That's why I'm against Trade tokens for blind draw. Similarly, I'm not a fan of spending tokens for Coins and then drawing, such that you'll have to guess whether you actually needed those Coins. If you guessed wrong, you either wasted your token or you don't have enough Coins.
Consider that Broker (and other such cards) have ways to gather Trade tokens, making their ordinarily one-shot abilities significantly less one-shotty and more plain expensive instead. I don't think it would be awful to have a card that can generate Trade tokens with a riskier effect, but definitely appreciate your dedication to making Trade tokens certain, for the most part.

I played with a different custom card using this bottom-line effect (it was a drawer that would let you pull a card from your discard by spending a Trade token). It strikes me that the point of attaching it to not discarding may be to make it harder to stack its token gaining effect which was the reason the card I tested didn't work.

Could you go into more detail about why it didn't work? What was the card, exactly? It sounds interesting.
Quote
Trapper
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards. Look through your discard pile. You may spend a Trade token. If you do, put a card from your discard pile into your hand.
While this is in play, when you buy a Victory card, take a Trade token.
A Smithy+ as a simple effect to see how compelling the selective draw was. The selective draw obviously synergizes with the way one actually acquires Trade tokens since you're increasing the size and variance of your deck by putting Victory cards into it but Trapper reaches through the bloated deck to reuse good cards.
Unfortunately, because of its strong draw it was really easy to stack its in-play effect and gain Trade tokens faster than you could really use them with other engine pieces.

Decreasing its draw to +2 Cards would make it a much weaker card-- maybe justifiably so for it being a practically infinite source of Trade tokens-- but it wouldn't fix the stacking problem. It could possibly be made into a sifter of sorts (+2 Cards, +$3, Discard 2 Cards, Pay to draw from discard) which would help its Trade token effect always have something to draw and also make it harder to stack with itself. However, the strength of its draw is one of the big reasons players are encouraged to do more than simply draw the best Treasure from their discard pile. Either of those changes also won't help your set allow players to get more cards into their hands.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #345 on: April 21, 2014, 02:53:09 pm »
+1

Quote
Cathedral
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards. +1 Buy. You may spend a Trade token. If you do, trash 2 cards from your hand.

While this is in play, when you buy a Victory card, take a Trade token.

Or something. This should eliminate the concern about Cathedral being too powerful as an opening because you can't use the trashing until at least turn 5. Unless you opened Cathedral/Jubilee, but that seems like a fine combo.
Remember that one of the big reasons Cathedral was a game decider was because it initially drew 4 cards. The difference between +3 Cards and +4 Cards is huge in any strategy. This way of acquiring Trade token looks weird since it is a gate rather than a synergy.
That +buy is kind of gross though. Look at it: It's just hanging there. You should do something about it before it gets infected.

Disagree! +1 Buy is never superfluous on a card that does something when you buy a card. Just look at Goons, Merchant Guild, etc. If you have two Cathedrals in play, it's probably worth buying an Estate for two tokens.

Quote
Trapper
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+3 Cards. Look through your discard pile. You may spend a Trade token. If you do, put a card from your discard pile into your hand.
While this is in play, when you buy a Victory card, take a Trade token.
A Smithy+ as a simple effect to see how compelling the selective draw was. The selective draw obviously synergizes with the way one actually acquires Trade tokens since you're increasing the size and variance of your deck by putting Victory cards into it but Trapper reaches through the bloated deck to reuse good cards.
Unfortunately, because of its strong draw it was really easy to stack its in-play effect and gain Trade tokens faster than you could really use them with other engine pieces.

Decreasing its draw to +2 Cards would make it a much weaker card-- maybe justifiably so for it being a practically infinite source of Trade tokens-- but it wouldn't fix the stacking problem. It could possibly be made into a sifter of sorts (+2 Cards, +$3, Discard 2 Cards, Pay to draw from discard) which would help its Trade token effect always have something to draw and also make it harder to stack with itself. However, the strength of its draw is one of the big reasons players are encouraged to do more than simply draw the best Treasure from their discard pile. Either of those changes also won't help your set allow players to get more cards into their hands.

Huh. It's tough to say whether Cathedral would have this issue or not. On one hand, it's only +3 Cards to Trapper's (effectively) +4 Cards. That's still really good, though. Of course, eventually the trashing will become unnecessary, unlike pulling cards from the discard pile. Still, it might be better if it gave +$ instead of +Cards. I'll think about it.

As for getting more cards into hands, I'm starting to come around to the idea that I have enough of that. Gambler and Vendor aside, I have Clerk, Guide, Floodgate, Convocation, and Wheelwright (and Dignitary to a lesser extent). And when it comes to getting one big mega-turn for Mill Towns, Gambler and Vendor can help. Probably I'm OK on draw after all (though if I get rid of Convocation, this may change).
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #346 on: April 21, 2014, 03:43:28 pm »
+1

Why would you get rid of convocation?

LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #347 on: April 21, 2014, 03:45:49 pm »
0

Why would you get rid of convocation?

Because a lot of people think it's too much better than Lab. That's not such a big deal that I'm going to cut it before finding a replacement, though. It may not get cut at all.

EDIT: Also, it's completely off-theme. It combos with Domain, but that's about it.

Oh, that reminds me. I was thinking of creating another card or two that used Domains. That way I can have a new type like Looter and can cut the setup text out of Barrister. Also, if you're playing multiple games with Enterprise cards, it's more likely that you won't have to switch up the starting decks between games. I was trying to come up with some sort of trash-for-benefit card in the Mine/Taxman vein. Or maybe they could act as a moat against Conscripts! That would be a nerf. Hmm…
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 04:20:36 pm by LastFootnote »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #348 on: April 21, 2014, 04:25:31 pm »
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I can't remember whether I've talked about it in this thread before, but I'm also considering splitting Conscripts into 3 or 4 different cards. Probably 3 different cards (5 copies of each). One would give out Curses. One would be a discard attack. One would be a spy attack. Perhaps this would create more problems than it solves. I'd prefer to have Conscripts not be totally useless once the Curses run out, but maybe that's not such a big deal. After all, Barracks still retains its utility with other Attacks on the board.
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Fragasnap

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)
« Reply #349 on: April 21, 2014, 05:37:15 pm »
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Cathedral
That +buy is kind of gross though. Look at it: It's just hanging there. You should do something about it before it gets infected.
Disagree! +1 Buy is never superfluous on a card that does something when you buy a card. Just look at Goons, Merchant Guild, etc. If you have two Cathedrals in play, it's probably worth buying an Estate for two tokens.
True! But Goons and Merchant Guild are practically all about gaining tokens (Victory point tokens and Coin tokens respectively) where Cathedral trashes, and draws, and gets Trade tokens. It's not a problem, but it is mentally crowded.

As for getting more cards into hands, I'm starting to come around to the idea that I have enough of that. Gambler and Vendor aside, I have Clerk, Guide, Floodgate, Convocation, and Wheelwright (and Dignitary to a lesser extent). And when it comes to getting one big mega-turn for Mill Towns, Gambler and Vendor can help. Probably I'm OK on draw after all (though if I get rid of Convocation, this may change).
There is a bit of draw, but Floodgate is a one-shot, Wheelwright only draws to 7, and each other draws only 2 cards (except Guide which is a one-shot for +4 Cards). I'd like to see at least one card that flat-out draws 3 cards.

I can't remember whether I've talked about it in this thread before, but I'm also considering splitting Conscripts into 3 or 4 different cards. Probably 3 different cards (5 copies of each). One would give out Curses. One would be a discard attack. One would be a spy attack. Perhaps this would create more problems than it solves. I'd prefer to have Conscripts not be totally useless once the Curses run out, but maybe that's not such a big deal. After all, Barracks still retains its utility with other Attacks on the board.
It's an interesting idea. I also like the idea of having limited Cursing Conscripts that trash themselves so that they can't empty the Curse pile on their own.
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