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Author Topic: Dominion: Enterprise (Beta)  (Read 170990 times)

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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #150 on: April 08, 2013, 08:54:37 am »
+1

If Tariff tokens on Copper or Silver (or even on basic Victory cards) become too much of problem, I'm sure there's a wording out there that can exclude the basic cards from the clause.

"You may put the Tariff marker on any kingdom card in the Supply."

I think blocking Copper should be impossible, in any case. One of the unwritten rules in Dominion is "You can always at least buy a Copper".

Edit: At least i like to think so.

GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #151 on: April 08, 2013, 11:10:40 am »
+1

You have a Highway in play and the Tarrif is on the Coppers. Do Coppers cost $2 or $1? What if Tarrif is on Coppers and you play 3 Bridges?

If you have effects that raise cost, it causes ambiguous timing issues with cards that lower cost. There's no rule to say whether you apply Tarrif or Highway or Bridge first, and it matters because of the not less than 0 clause.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #152 on: April 08, 2013, 11:19:07 am »
0

You have a Highway in play and the Tarrif is on the Coppers. Do Coppers cost $2 or $1? What if Tarrif is on Coppers and you play 3 Bridges?

If you have effects that raise cost, it causes ambiguous timing issues with cards that lower cost. There's no rule to say whether you apply Tarrif or Highway or Bridge first, and it matters because of the not less than 0 clause.

For interactions with cost-reduction cards, cost increases would always be applied before cost decreases.

There's no rule to say which to apply first because with the existing cards it never comes up. Hence my ruling here. I think it's the only reasonable ruling for such an interaction.

I know how you feel, but this isn't a huge taboo mechanic, dude. The original version of Cutpurse was, "Cards cost $1 during your turn and then $1 more until your next turn." That version got canned because it didn't follow standard Duration timings, not because it raised costs.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #153 on: April 08, 2013, 12:53:12 pm »
+1

You have a Highway in play and the Tarrif is on the Coppers. Do Coppers cost $2 or $1? What if Tarrif is on Coppers and you play 3 Bridges?

If you have effects that raise cost, it causes ambiguous timing issues with cards that lower cost. There's no rule to say whether you apply Tarrif or Highway or Bridge first, and it matters because of the not less than 0 clause.

For interactions with cost-reduction cards, cost increases would always be applied before cost decreases.

There's no rule to say which to apply first because with the existing cards it never comes up. Hence my ruling here. I think it's the only reasonable ruling for such an interaction.

I know how you feel, but this isn't a huge taboo mechanic, dude. The original version of Cutpurse was, "Cards cost $1 during your turn and then $1 more until your next turn." That version got canned because it didn't follow standard Duration timings, not because it raised costs.

Oops, didn't see that you'd already addressed it. Yeah, so long as there's a consistant ruling in the actual Dominion rules (or variation-cards-Dominion rules) that addresses it, should be fine. It just shouldn't be a specific card ruling.
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mail-mi

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #154 on: April 08, 2013, 05:44:02 pm »
+1

Quote
I know how you feel, but this isn't a huge taboo mechanic, dude. The original version of Cutpurse was, "Cards cost $1 during your turn and then $1 more until your next turn." That version got canned because it didn't follow standard Duration timings, not because it raised costs.
Wait, I can play 8 markets, them cut purse, then buy all the colonies? Sweet!
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #155 on: April 08, 2013, 05:52:04 pm »
0

Quote
I know how you feel, but this isn't a huge taboo mechanic, dude. The original version of Cutpurse was, "Cards cost $1 during your turn and then $1 more until your next turn." That version got canned because it didn't follow standard Duration timings, not because it raised costs.
Wait, I can play 8 markets, them cut purse, then buy all the colonies? Sweet!

Ha ha! Whoops. In case it's not clear to everybody else, that should read, "Cards cost $1 less during your turn…"
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Fragasnap

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #156 on: April 17, 2013, 02:47:08 pm »
+1

By the by, I played a game using Clerk. I underestimated how complex the decision is (but not how useful). It probably is best that it does not look at more than 2 cards. Its reaction made the game pretty tense as it was the strongest source of trashing on a table with Attack engine components.

Nice, thanks for testing that. How was the card overall? Was it interesting enough?
Overall, I liked Clerk as written more than I thought I would. I thought its ability would be a too weak to justify 2 card draw, but it generally did feel useful enough. I have to play with it more to formulate a better opinion, as that table was good to Clerk.
My opponent was particularly fond of the card which is always a good sign.

I also played a game with Barracks and no other Attacks. I really like Barracks, but without any Attacks, we have to go off of Conscripts and the result was a resounding "meh." Because Conscripts gives out both Golds and Curses, it's hard to skip even if it is a little slow to begin with. My opponent and I ended up emptying the Curse pile and the strategy felt way too much like Big Money to me. Really, in any game without one of the power trashers (you know, Chapel, Steward, or Remake), I think Conscripts is going to be too good to pass up on.
My opponent also did not like Conscripts, though I think he believed it to be a stronger than it is.
Do you suppose they could provide virtual coin and a buy? I think that could make them much more interesting.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #157 on: April 17, 2013, 05:05:33 pm »
0

Overall, I liked Clerk as written more than I thought I would. I thought its ability would be a too weak to justify 2 card draw, but it generally did feel useful enough. I have to play with it more to formulate a better opinion, as that table was good to Clerk.
My opponent was particularly fond of the card which is always a good sign.

Nice. Thanks for taking the time to let me know how it went! This is neither here nor there, but I'm renaming the card 'Dignitary'. I'm stealing 'Clerk' for a different card that fits the flavor better.

I also played a game with Barracks and no other Attacks. I really like Barracks, but without any Attacks, we have to go off of Conscripts and the result was a resounding "meh."

Ah, Barracks. Such a tough card to balance. It has to be sometimes worth going for in games without other Attack cards, but not be overpowered in games with other Attack cards. It has to be worth using both options (dig for Attack, gain Conscripts) in both kinds of games. Barracks and Conscripts have both gone through a LOT of iterations and I'm fairly happy with how they are right now. That being said, I'm not completely opposed to changing them.

Because Conscripts gives out both Golds and Curses, it's hard to skip even if it is a little slow to begin with. My opponent and I ended up emptying the Curse pile and the strategy felt way too much like Big Money to me. Really, in any game without one of the power trashers (you know, Chapel, Steward, or Remake), I think Conscripts is going to be too good to pass up on.
My opponent also did not like Conscripts, though I think he believed it to be a stronger than it is.

For better or worse, I've tried to bring Barracks and Conscripts' power in line with other Curse givers. I'd rather err on the side of being weaker than Witch/Mountebank rather than stronger, but existing Curse-givers were my benchmark. I posit that any game with a Curse-giver and no good Curse trashing is going to end up as a Big Money slog of sorts, so I don't think Conscripts really stands out here. For what it's worth, while testing the current versions of the cards I tried a mock game of Barracks vs. Masquerade and double-Masq just destroys a Barracks strategy, free Golds and all.

Quote
Do you suppose they could provide virtual coin and a buy? I think that could make them much more interesting.

I'm not convinced this would actually fix anything. In the past, various versions of Conscripts have had +$2 or +$3. In terms of being intrinsically interesting, I think the Gold gaining is more unique; fewer cards gain you Gold than give virtual coin. But if I understand you correctly, you're saying that giving coins instead allows for the player to more easily buy cards other than Gold for a more interesting game overall. I think that's valid. However, here are some things to consider.
  • As a card that digs for Attack cards, Barracks isn't meant to be in a really efficient engine. If you're drawing your whole deck anyway, there's not much need to dig for your Attacks; they're already in your hand.
  • Because Conscripts gains you Gold, you don't have to use as many of your $6 buys on Gold. Often you won't have to buy any at all. You know your deck is going to have the Gold from Conscripts, so you can focus your buys on more interesting $5 and $6 cards.
The game you described seems like just about the worst case for a Barracks game: no other Attacks or trashers. I agree that it would be very difficult to win such a game by ignoring Barracks if your opponent goes for them. Again, that's by design to put it in line with the existing Curse givers. The one saving grace of the cards in those situations is that—if I've designed them correctly—there's still some skill in actually playing the Barracks and Conscripts. In my experience, it's sometimes more useful to use Barracks to summon Conscripts to your hand than to gain more, which isn't immediately obvious. Because Conscripts gains Gold rather than giving virtual coins, there's also a point when you don't want any more Conscripts; they're effectively dead cards if you're not going to see that Gold before the game ends. Deciding when that point is can also be an interesting puzzle.

Anyhow, it's also possible I'm misjudging the cards. I've played a lot of games with them in their current form, but that doesn't mean I've been playing optimally. It sucks that you guys had a bad experience with them. At the risk of sounding like I'm saying, "Go playtest my cards more!", I'm hoping you'll have a better experience if you play Barracks and Conscripts with some other Attacks, trashers, or any way to deal with Curses, really. Since you took the time to mock up or proxy both Barracks and Conscripts, might as well give them at least one more shot, right?  :D  I'll think more about going back to a version that gives +$3. For some reason, I'm not crazy about the idea of giving Conscripts +1 Buy. Wouldn't that be sort of tacked on? I'll think about that too, though.

Thanks as always for the playtesting and feedback! I really appreciate it.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 05:06:34 pm by LastFootnote »
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Fragasnap

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #158 on: April 21, 2013, 08:21:17 am »
+1

I played two games with Mill Town. One had Apothecary and Floodgate and the other had Stables and a decent custom draw card. They both ended just about how you think they would.
I quite like Mill Town. I'm not certain how useful its Copper revealing effect will generally be, but I am stricken with how useful it seems in any case with card-draw and no Cursers.

I'm not convinced this would actually fix anything. In the past, various versions of Conscripts have had +$2 or +$3. In terms of being intrinsically interesting, I think the Gold gaining is more unique; fewer cards gain you Gold than give virtual coin. But if I understand you correctly, you're saying that giving coins instead allows for the player to more easily buy cards other than Gold for a more interesting game overall...
...I'll think more about going back to a version that gives +$3. For some reason, I'm not crazy about the idea of giving Conscripts +1 Buy. Wouldn't that be sort of tacked on? I'll think about that too, though.
I remember when Conscripts had +$2. Gaining Gold certainly is more intrinsically interesting by the very fact you outline, but the virtual coin is not what would make buying other cards easier. Take Spoils as a one-shot Gold for example: One of the first thing one buys with Spoils is another Gold. One-shot Gold is great at grabbing the more permanent kind. Contraband, on the other hand, is a Gold with a +Buy (and card denial, of course). That +Buy is what really makes all the difference because when a player has $6 and 1 Buy he defaults to Gold but with $6-$7 and 2 Buys there are a lot more options available to him.
Furthermore, the fact that Conscripts can play Attacks from the hand is rather confusing to their Gold gaining. Gaining Gold is a long-term benefit but it detriments players in the short run because it costs them an Action and a card slot from their hands (which will decrease the value of the hand that contained Conscripts), then another Attack can be played from the hand. It is confusing when most effects on Attacks are short-term benefits like Milita's +$2 and Rabble's +3 Cards.

In my experience, it's sometimes more useful to use Barracks to summon Conscripts to your hand than to gain more, which isn't immediately obvious. Because Conscripts gains Gold rather than giving virtual coins, there's also a point when you don't want any more Conscripts; they're effectively dead cards if you're not going to see that Gold before the game ends. Deciding when that point is can also be an interesting puzzle.
My initial reaction was pretty binary: If I had Conscripts in my deck, hunt for them, otherwise, gain them. I stopped gaining them after the Curse pile was depleted. Maybe allowing a short-term benefit on Conscripts would make it boring, I really can't tell. I do know that if it has +$3, +1 Buy, copies would be much easier to collect Conscripts even when the Curse pile is empty which would make Barracks less of a dead card without other Attacks.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #159 on: April 22, 2013, 03:21:35 pm »
0

Fragasnap, I'm starting to be convinced that Conscripts could be better with +$2 or +$3. I don't think I'll add the +1 Buy, at least not right away, because that might be too much of what you need all rolled into one package.

I worry a bit that this change will make players always choose the Conscripts gain over the digging for an Attack, but I'm probably overestimating that. You still want to get to your existing Conscripts quickly in order to dole out Curses faster and get your new buys into your deck sooner.

One of the reasons I want to try it is that Conscripts with +$3 makes Profiteer easier to balance. Other players won't usually want a Gold-gaining Conscripts at the end of the game, but a money-producing Conscripts is a different story.

If Conscripts turns out to be too good at +$3—especially with Barracks as an opener—I'll experiment with other vanilla bonuses. I could nerf Barracks back to gaining one Conscripts, but I feel that would pretty much make gaining Conscripts with every play a given. I have that concern with the +$3 bonus in general, but I'll see how it works in practice.

I'm glad you like Mill Town. I assume since you mentioned Floodgate specifically that you were able to use it to advantage in that Mill Town game?
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Fragasnap

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #160 on: April 27, 2013, 07:10:55 am »
0

I'm starting to be convinced that Conscripts could be better with +$2 or +$3. I don't think I'll add the +1 Buy, at least not right away, because that might be too much of what you need all rolled into one package.
I've been playing with +1 Buy, +$2. It has shown up in two games, one with Mountebank, another with a deck manipulation Attack (though I went Double Jack\Walled Village\Barracks to surprising effect). I was much happier to gain Conscripts after the Curse pile was empty when they weren't throwing boring Golds into my deck. I rarely got to use the extra buy at +$2, but their ability to play each other made +$2 really good, particularly because I didn't have many other Actions in my deck in either game. +$3 is certainly too good. Go for +$2 and I still recommend the +Buy.

I'm glad you like Mill Town. I assume since you mentioned Floodgate specifically that you were able to use it to advantage in that Mill Town game?
Yes. I used Mill Towns to gain Floodgates in order to set aside the Coppers I had revealed with Mill Towns and further Mill Towns for a final turn where I gained 4 of the Provinces and then bought the last one.
Definitely consider some way to incorporate that combo into the recommended sets of ten.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #161 on: June 17, 2013, 01:58:10 am »
+3

Guilds has probably made changing Conscripts yet again necessary, and you'll probably need to rename Tax Collector, but I hope you don't give up on the set.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #162 on: June 17, 2013, 11:38:12 pm »
+3

Guilds has probably made changing Conscripts yet again necessary, and you'll probably need to rename Tax Collector, but I hope you don't give up on the set.

I wasn't going to post anything for a while after the Guilds release, but since you brought it up, here's the latest news. The current version of Conscripts looks like this:

Conscripts
Types: Action
Cost: 0*
+1 Action. +$2. Return this to the Conscripts pile. Each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand. Each other player who didn't discard gains a Curse. (This is not in the Supply.)

It's extra incentive to play multiple Conscripts in a single turn, especially in a 2-player game. I've only been able to test it in one mock game so far, but I'm hopeful it'll work out well.

The card you know as Tax Collector has been renamed Magistrate, and I'm thinking about trying it out at $4. I had another card that I more recently called Tax Collector before Guilds was released. I have renamed that card Assessor for now. You can see its early stages in another thread in this forum.

Boycott is dead, at least temporarily. I stole its artwork for Exchange and put Exchange's artwork on a new card I'm about to try. Fund also has different art.

I may make Surveyor a $2 one-shot again. We'll see.

Clerk has been renamed Dignitary and has different art. I wanted to use the name Clerk for another card. I may strip Dignitary of its Reaction ability and try it out at $3. If I do, I'll try to find another home for the reaction.

I'm still (slowly) working to bring Enterprise up to a 25-card set. There are a bunch of cards I've posted to this and other threads that are in the larger version (Convocation, Assessor, the card that stole Clerk's name, a version of Wheelwright, etc.). There are some cards I've been playtesting over the last few months that I haven't posted yet, and there are three more cards I came up with in the last couple of days that haven't been playtested yet. Two of them are kind of inspired by Guilds cards, but don't use coin tokens or overpay.

Gambler, Mill Town, Enforcer, Floodgate, Barracks, and Inventor are unchanged from the versions you see in the OP.

Once I have a nice, clean subset of 12 cards that could stand on their own as a small expansion, I'll update the OP. It's tough getting a good spread of cards while maintaining my desired cost ratio (1 $2, 2 $3, 4 $4, 5 $5) and a good mix of terminals and non-terminals, though.

Anyway, I'm sure that's more than you all wanted to know. Thanks for showing an interest!
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 01:27:29 am by LastFootnote »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #163 on: July 12, 2013, 07:43:53 am »
0

I may have already said this in this thread, but have you considered making fund:

Fund:
Treasure - $5
Worth $2, +1 buy
When you play this, you may trash this
---
When you trash this, gain a Silver, putting it in your hand.

I guess if the concept is that it's strictly a Silver with a one time bonus, then it can't work this way, but I just like versatility, especially when it doesn't ruin simplicity.

I explore the concept in my fan expansion with "Cargo", which is a $4 copper that, among many other things, can trash itself, and you gain a copper in hand when it's trashed.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 07:46:06 am by NoMoreFun »
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Fragasnap

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #164 on: July 17, 2013, 10:10:07 am »
+1

Conscripts
Types: Action
Cost: 0*
+1 Action. +$2. Return this to the Conscripts pile. Each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand. Each other player who didn't discard gains a Curse. (This is not in the Supply.)

It's extra incentive to play multiple Conscripts in a single turn, especially in a 2-player game. I've only been able to test it in one mock game so far, but I'm hopeful it'll work out well.

The card you know as Tax Collector has been renamed Magistrate, and I'm thinking about trying it out at $4. I had another card that I more recently called Tax Collector before Guilds was released. I have renamed that card Assessor for now. You can see its early stages in another thread in this forum.
I'm doubtful that this version of Conscripts will work as a Curser, but I'm probably undervaluing the non-terminal discard of it.
I like the changes to Tax Collector: Particularly the new name. At a cost of $4 I think it will be very competitive with Militia, but may need to drop the "no Copper" clause.

Quote
Clerk has been renamed Dignitary and has different art. I wanted to use the name Clerk for another card. I may strip Dignitary of its Reaction ability and try it out at $3. If I do, I'll try to find another home for the reaction.
I don't like this change as much. I thought the effects were pretty flavorful with Clerk.

I've been playing more with Mill Town. I've found that in pretty much every game where I can increase my handsize, Mill Town is just crazy. The fact that I was able to pretty much gain the Duchy pile in a 2-player game in a single turn. I would recommend taking a page from Horn of Plenty and having Mill Town trash itself when gaining Victory cards.

I continue to look forward to your updates. Best of luck to you.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #165 on: July 17, 2013, 11:02:59 am »
0

Conscripts
Types: Action
Cost: 0*
+1 Action. +$2. Return this to the Conscripts pile. Each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand. Each other player who didn't discard gains a Curse. (This is not in the Supply.)

It's extra incentive to play multiple Conscripts in a single turn, especially in a 2-player game. I've only been able to test it in one mock game so far, but I'm hopeful it'll work out well.

The card you know as Tax Collector has been renamed Magistrate, and I'm thinking about trying it out at $4. I had another card that I more recently called Tax Collector before Guilds was released. I have renamed that card Assessor for now. You can see its early stages in another thread in this forum.
I'm doubtful that this version of Conscripts will work as a Curser, but I'm probably undervaluing the non-terminal discard of it.
I like the changes to Tax Collector: Particularly the new name. At a cost of $4 I think it will be very competitive with Militia, but may need to drop the "no Copper" clause.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to playtest either of these yet. You could be right on both counts. I like the concept of this new Conscripts, so if it's too weak, I'll probably beef up the non-Attack portion of it. As for Magistrate (formerly Tax Collector), if it doesn't work at $4, I'll probably just bump it back up to $5. I feel that the "no Copper" clause serves to reduce AP as much as boost its power, so I'd rather keep it if possible.

Quote
Clerk has been renamed Dignitary and has different art. I wanted to use the name Clerk for another card. I may strip Dignitary of its Reaction ability and try it out at $3. If I do, I'll try to find another home for the reaction.
I don't like this change as much. I thought the effects were pretty flavorful with Clerk.

Well, the new card with this name is this:

Clerk
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Look through your discard pile. You may reveal a Copper from it and put it into your hand.

Who works in Counting Houses? Clerks. So the name seemed more appropriate for a mini-Counting House card.

I've been playing more with Mill Town. I've found that in pretty much every game where I can increase my handsize, Mill Town is just crazy. The fact that I was able to pretty much gain the Duchy pile in a 2-player game in a single turn. I would recommend taking a page from Horn of Plenty and having Mill Town trash itself when gaining Victory cards.

I'm definitely open to that idea. I hate stealing unique clauses from other cards, but I can definitely see how it would be warranted here. Could you tell me a bit more about the game where you gained all the Duchies? Did your opponent contest you for Mill Towns? What was his/her strategy?
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 11:07:13 am by LastFootnote »
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Warfreak2

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #166 on: July 17, 2013, 02:07:27 pm »
+1

"Each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand. Each other player who didn't discard gains a Curse."

I'm not sure about this; do you mean, each other player who did not discard any cards? Because, Cellar isn't "you may", it's "discard any number of cards", where 0 is any number. If my hand is already 3 cards, I can argue that I discarded 0 cards to make my handsize 3 cards, so I am exempt from the Curse. (Then there's an even nitpickier question of whether I can discard down to 3 cards, if my hand was already smaller than 3 cards?) Otherwise the only reason I can think of for not discarding down to 3 would be Moat/Lighthouse, but they would protect you from the Curse too.

Obviously it's clear what you mean.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #167 on: July 17, 2013, 02:42:47 pm »
0

"Each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand. Each other player who didn't discard gains a Curse."

I'm not sure about this; do you mean, each other player who did not discard any cards? Because, Cellar isn't "you may", it's "discard any number of cards", where 0 is any number. If my hand is already 3 cards, I can argue that I discarded 0 cards to make my handsize 3 cards, so I am exempt from the Curse. (Then there's an even nitpickier question of whether I can discard down to 3 cards, if my hand was already smaller than 3 cards?) Otherwise the only reason I can think of for not discarding down to 3 would be Moat/Lighthouse, but they would protect you from the Curse too.

Obviously it's clear what you mean.

I was aware of the possible confusion when wording the card. I opted for this wording using Stonemason as precedent. Stonemason's "if you do" does not consider overpaying by $0 to be overpaying at all. However, I think I should adopt your wording to bring Conscripts more in line with Tactician. "Any cards" is not so many words to add, and it is clearer. Thanks for the suggestion!
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Warfreak2

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #168 on: July 18, 2013, 01:36:39 am »
+1

Tactician is a much better source for the phrasing, good find. Stonemason can't be overpaid for by $0 because the rules of Dominion specifically forbid overpaying by $0.
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Fragasnap

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #169 on: July 18, 2013, 10:40:08 am »
+1

Clerk
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Look through your discard pile. You may reveal a Copper from it and put it into your hand.
That is a cute Clerk, but I imagine too good for $2. It's a cantrip when it misses and a Peddler when it doesn't. Conditional Peddlers Ironmonger and Tournament both suggest $4 might be a more appropriate cost.
I'll look into testing it in some games.

I've been playing more with Mill Town. I've found that in pretty much every game where I can increase my handsize, Mill Town is just crazy. The fact that I was able to pretty much gain the Duchy pile in a 2-player game in a single turn. I would recommend taking a page from Horn of Plenty and having Mill Town trash itself when gaining Victory cards.

I'm definitely open to that idea. I hate stealing unique clauses from other cards, but I can definitely see how it would be warranted here. Could you tell me a bit more about the game where you gained all the Duchies? Did your opponent contest you for Mill Towns? What was his/her strategy?
Really, Mill Town is playing a lot like Horn of Plenty overall, but a bit harder to get working since you need Mill Towns and Coppers in hand.
The game in particular had as important cards: Crossroads, Mill Town, Band of Misfits, Harem
The ability to use Bands of Misfitses as either Crossroadses (with Harems no less) or Mill Towns was obviously a big upset to the game. I was gaining some early Duchies and later Harems with Mill Towns. The early Duchies didn't hurt at all between Crossroadses' draws and Mill Towns' need of discard fodder. There were some fun mind games early on with Smugglerses and Tributes (since early Harems could be countered by the use of those), but once the Bands of Misfitses were flowing there wasn't much care in gaining cards. My opponent didn't gain Victory cards as early or as rapidly as he should have been (I believe there were 2 instances later on when he passed on picking up Duchies, once with Smugglers, once with Mill Town, when I would have recommended otherwise), but we did both pick Mill Town as a key card on the board.
There was a decent draw card-- can't remember precisely what it was now, but it was really just a catalyst for Mill Towns or Bands of Misfitses dressed as Mill Towns.

On another game I used Floodgate to pass Coppers into the next turn for a Mill Town megaturn. I mentioned that one earlier.
Another game I used Apothecary to pull Coppers for gaining Apprentices which I later trashed to get my cards into hand for the Mill Town megaturn.

I've played some others where Mill Town is just a neat little Village\Workshop thing. That's cool. Even when it can be used for these megaturns that gain tons of Duchies or Provinces it is fun to play with, but when that happens it feels a lot like Horn of Plenty, so the trashing is probably necessary-- especially since Mill Town itself is a light sifter, making a little early Victory bloat okay. Either that or make it so Mill Town can't gain Victory cards, but I must confess that would make me a little sad.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #170 on: July 18, 2013, 12:00:05 pm »
+1

Clerk
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Look through your discard pile. You may reveal a Copper from it and put it into your hand.
That is a cute Clerk, but I imagine too good for $2. It's a cantrip when it misses and a Peddler when it doesn't. Conditional Peddlers Ironmonger and Tournament both suggest $4 might be a more appropriate cost.
I'll look into testing it in some games.

Well, let's compare them a little closer. Clerk's worst case is actually better than Tournament's worst case, since it always gives +1 Card, +1 Action. However, Tournament is a much more reliable Peddler early on. Clerk has a pretty high chance to whiff if you pick it up early. And of course, Clerk ain't gaining you no Prizes.

Ironmonger is an even better comparison. Thre are only two situations where Ironmonger "whiffs". One is when you turn over a Curse or Hovel, and even then you at least get to sift past it. The other is when you have nothing left in your deck or discard. Often you'd prefer Ironmonger hit a Victory card, or even an Action depending on your deck. And even when it hits Copper, you get the extra bonus of sifting past that Copper.

A stack of Clerks, on the other hand, have to stop working eventually. Either the discard pile will run out of Coppers or you'll force a reshuffle. It's kind of like Menagerie in that way. Unless you build your deck just so, they'll eventually stop activating. Even when Clerk hits, it's usually not as awesome as Menagerie.

Finally, I just have trouble picturing buying Clerk even at $3. I really think $2 is the sweet spot for the card, although I've been wrong before.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #171 on: July 18, 2013, 12:14:50 pm »
0

I think the price difference between $2 and $3 is mainly about how spammable it is, and whether you can open with it and a $5-cost. Whether it's strictly better or worse than another card is also a consideration. But otherwise a mediocre effect could pretty similarly be put on a $2 or a $3.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #172 on: July 18, 2013, 12:22:28 pm »
0

I may have already said this in this thread, but have you considered making fund:

Fund:
Treasure - $5
Worth $2, +1 buy
When you play this, you may trash this
---
When you trash this, gain a Silver, putting it in your hand.

I guess if the concept is that it's strictly a Silver with a one time bonus, then it can't work this way, but I just like versatility, especially when it doesn't ruin simplicity.

I explore the concept in my fan expansion with "Cargo", which is a $4 copper that, among many other things, can trash itself, and you gain a copper in hand when it's trashed.

I meant to respond to this a while ago. Sorry!

To answer your question, yes I've considered it. I try to keep mechanics specific to other expansions out of this expansion whenever possible. I'd really like it to stand alone, so to speak. To this end, Enterprise will never contain Duration cards, Potion-cost cards, VP Chip-gaining cards, Looters, cards that use Spoils, cards that get you Coin tokens, or cards with overpay.

Hybrid Victory cards, on-buy abilities, on-gain abilities, and on-trash abilities are not off the table, but I'll only use them if the card's core concept requires them or really works best with them. Floodgate has an on-gain ability, for instance, because that's the whole point of the card. Although it would be a cool twist, Fund doesn't need an on-trash ability to do what it does.

With Cargo, the on-trash ability is great because Cargo can trash any card in play including itself. The on-trash clause is a lot cooler and more elegant than saying, "If the trashed card is this…".

I think the price difference between $2 and $3 is mainly about how spammable it is, and whether you can open with it and a $5-cost. Whether it's strictly better or worse than another card is also a consideration. But otherwise a mediocre effect could pretty similarly be put on a $2 or a $3.

Agreed. Picking Clerk up as part of a 5/2 split is nice, but not awesome. It's usually better than nothing. I definitely want it to be spammable, especially since it's somewhat self-limiting. I currently see no reason it needs to cost $3.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 12:24:32 pm by LastFootnote »
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dondon151

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #173 on: July 18, 2013, 12:31:19 pm »
+1

Clerk also has amazing synergy with discard-for-benefit. Still not sure if it should cost $3 though.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #174 on: July 18, 2013, 12:39:27 pm »
0

Clerk also has amazing synergy with discard-for-benefit. Still not sure if it should cost $3 though.

Indeed. I have a few more cards in the works for this set that benefit from having a large hand-size, one of which is a discard-for-benefit card. Clerk is definitely meant to combo with such cards.
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