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Author Topic: Dominion: Enterprise  (Read 412264 times)

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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #125 on: February 26, 2013, 12:50:18 pm »
0

One card that seems missing in a thorough one shot/instant vs delayed gratification expansion would be a card of this form:

Card:
Effect 1
(You may) trash this
---
When you trash this, Effect 2

You can play the card, but you may want to play it with a good TFB card instead, or you could use it in a pinch with an early game trasher. I don't know where it would fit (possibly on "fund") but if you do end up going for the large expansion, that would be something to consider.

That is a cool idea, and I have considered it. I don't think I could shoehorn it into any of the existing cards, though. As you say, Fund is pretty much the only viable option and it's already a really solid $5 card, from what my testing shows. I'm even concerned it's too powerful, since it's way better than Gold if you're only going to see it once before the game ends. But I probably worry too much. Most players can't predict which shuffle is going to be their last with 100% certainty.

I will, however, continue to keep the mechanic in mind for any future cards I design.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #126 on: March 08, 2013, 06:02:29 pm »
0

You know what I've never heard someone say? "I really like Tax Collector." I haven't heard it in this thread and I haven't heard it in my playtest games. People don't usually buy them unless I buy one first, and not always then. I also don't like the fact that it costs $6, which is hard to justify in a 12-card set that needs more $5 cards. Luckily, I have come up with a replacement card that I'm quite excited about. I hope it works out (after playtesting and tweaking, of course).

Profiteer
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $5
+$2. Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes a revealed Treasure you choose, and discards the rest. For each Treasure trashed this way, +$1.

When you gain this, each other player gains a Conscripts from the Conscripts pile.

Here's Conscripts, for easy reference:

Conscripts
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: 0*
Return this to the Conscripts pile. Gain a Gold. Each other player gains a Curse. You may play an Attack card from your hand. (This is not in the Supply.)

This card has so many things going for it. It's going to be a real shame if I can't make it work.
  • It costs $5.
  • It fills the trashing attack slot.
  • It has a non-Attack interaction (in addition to its Attack interaction).
  • It's another use for Conscripts, which I know at least NoMoreFun will appreciate.
  • It's thematic; supply troops to the other players, then profit from the Gold they've gained.
  • It fits the theme of the expansion and pulls Conscripts into that theme as well.
I have in the past discouraged others from creating cards that trashed opponents' Treasures and provided coins based on how many Treasures were trashed. I think it scales badly. I'm hoping that this card gets around that for two reasons. First, you're going to be hit with Curses faster the more players they are, so the fact that the card scales up faster might be justified. Second, your opponents are going to have more Curses in their decks, which makes it less likely that you'll be hitting each one as the number of them increases. If testing reveals that it scales poorly, I'll nix it.

In general, I'm guessing the card is on the weak side right now. If it turns out I'm right, I'll try letting the player gain the trashed Treasures (in addition to getting the coins) and I'll try bumping the vanilla bonus to +$3 (or something similar).

As always, comments and feedback are welcome! Please let me know what you think.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 06:03:33 pm by LastFootnote »
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #127 on: March 08, 2013, 08:20:35 pm »
+1

Profiteer
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $5
+$2. Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes a revealed Treasure you choose, and discards the rest. For each Treasure trashed this way, +$1.

When you gain this, each other player gains a Conscripts from the Conscripts pile.

Here's Conscripts, for easy reference:

Conscripts
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: 0*
Return this to the Conscripts pile. Gain a Gold. Each other player gains a Curse. You may play an Attack card from your hand. (This is not in the Supply.)

So in a two player game, i will play this for at most +3$ (or, if improved, +4$) and let my opponent gain a curser that makes him gain Gold, maybe even trashing his Coppers?

Basically i think the attack hurts too little compared to the benefit it gives players on gain. I mean, it's a Thief, and Thief is not among the worst 4$ cards for no reason. I don't even know if i would care to Moat this... Free Gold and an attack at the expense of - in the worst case - another Gold? Hell, yeah. But seriously, your attack only hurts if Gold (or Platinum) is hit, and even then the hit deck has not become that much worse - i would go so far as to call it a benefit in games with good cycling (and without Platinum). Also Throne Room and moneyless Engines, Secret Chamber all the way.

Edit: I think what you should work on is the attack - only making the card better for the player "attacking" with it doesn't change that (usually) i'd gladly get hit by it.


Basically i think the attack hurts too little compared to the benefit it gives hit players. I mean, it's a Thief, and Thief is not among the worst 4$ cards for no reason. I don't even know if i would ever care to Moat this... Free Gold and an attack at the expense of - in the worst case - another Gold? Hell, yeah.

I think you're misreading the card. Opponents only gain a Conscripts when you gain a Profiteer, not when you play it. You couldn't Moat that part even if you wanted to.

Edit 2: Ooops, i really misread that. Sorry.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 10:24:20 am by Asper »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #128 on: March 09, 2013, 12:24:26 am »
0

Basically i think the attack hurts too little compared to the benefit it gives hit players. I mean, it's a Thief, and Thief is not among the worst 4$ cards for no reason. I don't even know if i would ever care to Moat this... Free Gold and an attack at the expense of - in the worst case - another Gold? Hell, yeah.

I think you're misreading the card. Opponents only gain a Conscripts when you gain a Profiteer, not when you play it. You couldn't Moat that part even if you wanted to.
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enfynet

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #129 on: March 09, 2013, 01:18:19 am »
+1

Is the +$1 for trashing at that moment or for the game? Because in 4p this could be worth $5 or in 2p worth $3
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #130 on: March 09, 2013, 02:01:58 am »
+1

Interesting thing with Profiteer:

After everyone has played their Conscripts, for each purchase of this card:
You gain Curses equal to (number of players - 1)
Everyone else gains Curses equal to (number of players - 2)

This means, on average, it doesn't actually hurt you more to buy this in games with more players.

I like the "everyone else gains a Conscripts" thing (as you predicted :P), but it's not an effect that balances out this cards' scaling in Multiplayer.
I was also worried about Copper trashing, but this is definitely not a card you want to open with anyway.
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One Armed Man

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #131 on: March 11, 2013, 01:49:28 pm »
+1

I think the Profiteers buff that you should consider first is looking at the top 3 cards for treasures instead of 2.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #132 on: March 11, 2013, 01:54:22 pm »
0

I think the Profiteers buff that you should consider first is looking at the top 3 cards for treasures instead of 2.

Right now I'm actually testing a non-Attack version that discards Victory and Curses for $2 each. I'll keep fiddling with different ideas until I find one that works. Or I'll just stop altogether. Lately I've been feeling like making this set (or any fan cards) is less and less worthwhile. Until Guilds comes out, I worry that any card I make might be too similar to existing cards. I also feel that at this point a good expansion should have a more novel mechanic than one-shots.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 01:56:21 pm by LastFootnote »
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One Armed Man

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #133 on: March 11, 2013, 10:03:30 pm »
+1

If you do a discard-junk card, you can make it more versatile with a Vagrant-like clause.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #134 on: March 11, 2013, 11:12:46 pm »
0

If you do a discard-junk card, you can make it more versatile with a Vagrant-like clause.

If you're suggesting that I add Shelters and Ruins to the list, thanks but no. I know this isn't an official expansion, but I still don't think cards in one expansion should directly reference cards that only appear in another expansion.
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One Armed Man

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #135 on: March 12, 2013, 04:30:50 pm »
+1

Another way to make it more versatile is to make it "non-Copper" or "non-Treasure" so that those other card types can be used without calling them out specifically.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #136 on: March 12, 2013, 04:47:25 pm »
0

Another way to make it more versatile is to make it "non-Copper" or "non-Treasure" so that those other card types can be used without calling them out specifically.

I was considering having it discard cards that aren't Treasures or Actions, but that wouldn't change much. Ruins and Necropolises still couldn't be discarded. It would really only change Hovel (and perhaps some future cards). It's not going to make much difference in most games anyhow.

Here's a clip from The Secret History of the Dark Ages Cards:

Quote
- I had discarding victory cards for +$2 each. It started out at $4, went up to $6, moved to Hinterlands, then was dropped for not being interesting enough.

So if discarding Victory cards for $2 is powerful enough to cost $6 (in Dark Ages no less), I think this version of Profiteer might be balanced. It can also discard Curses, but giving each other player a delayed Gold and yourself an additional delayed Curse is a pretty stiff penalty.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #137 on: March 29, 2013, 04:43:18 pm »
0

I've just made what will probably be the last update to Enterprise before the release of Dominion: Guilds.

I've decided not to get rid of Boycott yet, especially because it has quite a few fans. I was avoiding costing it at $2 for a long time, mostly because I wanted to differentiate it from Embargo as much as possible. Now that it's no longer a one-shot, that's less of a concern and I'm finally pricing it at $2.

Quote
Boycott
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+$2. You may move the Boycott marker to a Kingdom card pile.
------------------------------------------------------------
Setup: Put the Boycott marker on the Province pile. The pile with the Boycott marker is not part of the Supply. Cards in that pile cannot be bought or gained.

Instead of adding a new Supply pile, I decided to try something a little more radical: starting the Boycott marker on the Province pile. I've seen some fan cards that say, "In games using this, the game doesn't end when the Province pile is empty." This is a milder version of that. If nobody moves the Boycott marker, the game will have to end on piles. Luckily, now that Boycott costs $2, that's at least easier to pull off.

Will you buy a Boycott in order to break the seal on Provinces? Or will you wait for your opponent to do it? Or will you build a Duchy-based strategy? I'm hopeful that it will be more interesting and fun than annoying. Initial tests are promising.


I liked Surveyor as a cheap Feast variant, but it was too weak even at $2. I've made a non-one-shot version. Boy, the one-shots are just leaking out of this set! So it goes. Surveyor is exactly the same as before except it doesn't trash itself when you gain a card (which saves a surprising amount of text on the card) and it costs $4. I tried it at $5. It was expensive, and most of the cards you want to duplicate cost at least $5. You only have so many $5 buys in some games.

Quote
Surveyor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+2 Cards. You may discard a card that is not a Victory card. Gain a copy of it.

The potential problem with it is lack of fun. In general, you want to play your good Actions and Treasures, not discard them. I suppose many trash-for-benefit cards also have this issue, so maybe it's not a dealbreaker. I could make a version that puts the gained card onto your deck, although that might have to cost $5 or put not draw 2 cards.

The other issue with the card is that it's not a great fit for the set. Where are the expensive cards that you want several of? There's Fund. I may replace Exchange with Vendor to give the set another good Surveyor combo. Exchange is OK, but suffers from, "When do I buy this?" syndrome.


Finally, I've revamped Tax Collector. It no longer trahses cards and is now a combination discard/deck mucking attack.

Quote
Tax Collector
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $5
+$2. Each other player with at least 5 cards in hand reveals a card from his hand other than a Copper (or reveals a hand of all Copper). He discards it or puts it on top of his deck, your choice.

This kind of Attack where each other player reveals a card from his hand that you either discard or put onto his deck is one that's been suggested a few times here in the Variants forum. I've (hopefully) improved it by not allowing the revealed card to be Copper. It's an anti-Cutpurse! This boosts the power of the card and makes it resolve faster. The victim's decision resolves a bit faster because the number of possible cards he can reveal is cut down. The attacker's decision resolves much faster because non-Copper cards are usually either obviously bad cards you want to topdeck or good cards you want to discard. I can't speak for everybody, but when I play a Spy and turn up an opponent's Copper, the decision of whether to discard it takes longer than for any other revealed card.

Also, this version costs $5 instead of $6. I'm not sure most $6 Attack cards are such a hot idea. Goons is an exception because it's in Prosperity and—more importantly—it's an alternate path to victory. Anyhow, I felt the set needed more $5 cards and that with only 12 cards, a $6 card wasn't a high priority.

That's it for now. I've already updated the images and text on the front page. I may soon replace Exchange with Vendor. It's nice to have a trash-for-benefit card in the set, but I suppose not mandatory. Comments and criticisms are welcome.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 04:44:58 pm by LastFootnote »
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Fragasnap

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #138 on: March 30, 2013, 10:49:10 am »
+1

Chiming back in to state: This is my favorite fan expansion.
I love the one-shot theme. Lots of people don't like one-shots, but I think the conditional one-shot nature of the set gives a brand of tactical thinking that Dominion doesn't usually employ.
This is the only fan set that I have (as of yet) considered putting onto a table with my friends. (Unfortunately, most of them are more apt to playtest the cards they know I have made than other people's, so they haven't come up yet. I'm working on it.)

I really liked the old Surveyor. +2 Cards is usually a pretty weak effect, so I don't usually feel so bad about trashing it to get something much better. I think that putting the card on top of your deck could be a cool idea since then the card you're duplicating doesn't have to miss the shuffle. I think giving it that ability and keeping it as a one-shot would still keep it reasonable at $2.

Gambler looks really strong in terms of light trashing. One card trashing is often times weak, so the strength of Gambler is not a bad thing, I think.

Mill Town is still my favorite card of the set. It is a wonderful melding of Village and Workshop. I could see it being particularly powerful in a game with a good engine.

Clerk's action effect is pretty boring. I mean, $4 cards can't all be winners, but I would try to get its effect to be a little stronger than it currently is. How about "Look at the top 3 cards of your deck and put them back in any order. Choose one: +2 Cards; or +1 Card, +$1; or +$2"? Being able to hunt one card deeper would make its deck re-ordering a lot more interesting. I love the flavor of the reaction, as it makes it really strong against Cursers.

Enforcer is my least favorite card of the set. I've played with Attacks like this before and I find the effect is actually pretty underwhelming, particularly since this card is a cantrip that hinders your hand more often than it helps it. The effect for yourself is cool. I like it. My issue is that the Attack effect is not strong enough for its effect for you. What if it could force players to discard a card from a selection from their hand and then draw a card but wouldn't force them to discard anything (in case they had a hand full of junk)?
Something like "Each other player reveals 3 cards from his hand. He discards one that you choose and then draws a card or keeps them (your choice)." This would allow it to synergize in mean ways with cards that decrease hand-size.
Furthermore, trashing it usually feels bad. Maybe its Attack could occur "When you play this or trash this" in line with Noble Brigand's method of two ways to get its effect.
The card's name is also pretty weak though it is a casuality of Dark Ages. Could it possibly be Sheriff or Marshal?

Floodgate's on-gain is really nice and the strength of 2VP is often underestimated.

Barracks and Conscripts have amazing flavor to them. Barracks sifting ability is really cool to get to those Conscripts faster or any other Attack if the set actually has a nice one.

Exchange's one-shot double Remodel to hand is cool, but at the same time, it will likely be hard to use it as intended (gaining and playing Actions), particularly if it is the only source of +Action. Is there any way it could sometimes not trash itself when you play it? Maybe it could be used as a non-terminal Remodel or its one-shot option to double Remodel to hand.

Fund seems powerful. I am thankful that its +Buy makes trashing it an interesting decision (oh, and I love that you get to keep a Silver afterwards. Feodum could possibly love this). In fact, without that +Buy I would say it's a boring card that just accelerates into Gold, but since that +Buy is there it encourages building engines and other cool combos built out of cheap buys.

Inventor is clever, though it isn't a one-shot. Being able to tuck it away to get it to collide with what I want (or even when I draw multiples together) is an awesome effect. My only complaint is that "Inventor" sounds like it should provide +Cards (production), some sort of Remodel effect (tinkering with things), and\or some sort of Workshop effect (building devices). Could I recommend the name Bursary instead?

Tax Collector doesn't make me excited. Its new Attack effect is common among Fan-cards (though the exclusion of Coppers is smart). It also doesn't seem very flavorful since a lot of Tax Collectors were practically thieves in olden times. Also, the way the parenthetical is positioned makes it sound like if the player reveals a hand of all Coppers I can have him put his entire hand on top of his deck.
I like the idea of Profiteer more-- discarding Victory cards for coins-- but that effect becomes really strong towards the end of the game. It likely would not be purchased until one's later shuffles which would make the Conscripts more damaging to other players than helpful (unless it put the Conscripts into their hands to ensure that they get a chance at gaining Golds that they could use and cursing you).
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #139 on: March 30, 2013, 03:46:04 pm »
0

Chiming back in to state: This is my favorite fan expansion.
I love the one-shot theme. Lots of people don't like one-shots, but I think the conditional one-shot nature of the set gives a brand of tactical thinking that Dominion doesn't usually employ.
This is the only fan set that I have (as of yet) considered putting onto a table with my friends. (Unfortunately, most of them are more apt to playtest the cards they know I have made than other people's, so they haven't come up yet. I'm working on it.)

Thanks! I hope it goes well if you end up playtesting it.

I really liked the old Surveyor. +2 Cards is usually a pretty weak effect, so I don't usually feel so bad about trashing it to get something much better. I think that putting the card on top of your deck could be a cool idea since then the card you're duplicating doesn't have to miss the shuffle. I think giving it that ability and keeping it as a one-shot would still keep it reasonable at $2.

The issue I had with the old Surveyor is that nobody seemed to buy it, and it's hard to argue with those results. The new version at $4 is at least getting bought, although it's a little underwhelming. I'm coming around more and more to the idea of having it put the gained card on your deck, but I'll be trying a persistent version of that before a one-shot version. It's quite possible that I'll try a one-shot version of Surveyor again at some point, but it's not the way I'm leaning right now.

Mill Town is still my favorite card of the set. It is a wonderful melding of Village and Workshop. I could see it being particularly powerful in a game with a good engine.

Yes, I have seen Mill Town engines that pick up 3 or more Provinces on the last turn. It can definitely be used for a long-term strategy.

Clerk's action effect is pretty boring. I mean, $4 cards can't all be winners, but I would try to get its effect to be a little stronger than it currently is. How about "Look at the top 3 cards of your deck and put them back in any order. Choose one: +2 Cards; or +1 Card, +$1; or +$2"? Being able to hunt one card deeper would make its deck re-ordering a lot more interesting. I love the flavor of the reaction, as it makes it really strong against Cursers.

I'll admit that the action effect may not be the most interesting, but I doubt it needs a power boost. The deck-reordering effect is simply a side effect of putting the cards back; it's not meant to be part of the card's power. It's…difficult to describe why Clerk is as strong as it is. You wouldn't necessarily think that a card that's [+2 Cards; or +1 Card, +$1; or +$2] would be powerful. It seems like a weak Steward, but the ability to see what the cards are first really makes all the difference.

Compare it to a card that just gives +2 Cards. Say you play such a card and draw two Estates, and have $4 in your hand. Say you could put one of those Estates back onto your deck to bump your hand to $5. It allows for Courtyard-like tactics, but in a unique way. In fact, it's more Action-friendly than Courtyard because you can put back Actions you draw dead for $1 apiece.

Sort of like Jack of all Trades, Clerk is something you have to play to really get your head around its utility. Not that Clerk's action effect is as strong as Jack's; the reaction bit is definitely a big part of the card's utility.

Enforcer is my least favorite card of the set. I've played with Attacks like this before and I find the effect is actually pretty underwhelming, particularly since this card is a cantrip that hinders your hand more often than it helps it. The effect for yourself is cool. I like it. My issue is that the Attack effect is not strong enough for its effect for you. What if it could force players to discard a card from a selection from their hand and then draw a card but wouldn't force them to discard anything (in case they had a hand full of junk)?
Something like "Each other player reveals 3 cards from his hand. He discards one that you choose and then draws a card or keeps them (your choice)." This would allow it to synergize in mean ways with cards that decrease hand-size.
Furthermore, trashing it usually feels bad. Maybe its Attack could occur "When you play this or trash this" in line with Noble Brigand's method of two ways to get its effect.
The card's name is also pretty weak though it is a casuality of Dark Ages. Could it possibly be Sheriff or Marshal?

I guess I haven't had the same experience with the card as you have. The effect for you will hurt if your deck is cluttered with Victory cards and Curses, but it's a great asset it most engine decks, especially ones with powerful cantrips and no Copper trashing.

The Attack isn't that strong, but it's about on par with Spy. Your Attack effect is interesting, although I worry it'd cause a bit much AP as the other players have to choose which 3 cards to reveal every time. I'd rather have that attack on a terminal card.

I'd be willing to change its name, but I'm not sure I love Sheriff or Marshall. If possible, it'd be nice to have a name that still implied you had to pay the person to retain his services.

Exchange's one-shot double Remodel to hand is cool, but at the same time, it will likely be hard to use it as intended (gaining and playing Actions), particularly if it is the only source of +Action. Is there any way it could sometimes not trash itself when you play it? Maybe it could be used as a non-terminal Remodel or its one-shot option to double Remodel to hand.

Yes, I was considering something similar.

Quote
Exchange
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand and gain a card costing exactly $2 more than it. You may spend a trade token to put the gained card into your hand.

When you gain this, take 2 trade tokens.

I was going to wait until Guilds came out to see if its coin token mechanics were too similar to this. If not, I would develop several cards to use these trade tokens. However, I could simply make the card an optional one-shot as you suggest. I don't know if I'd keep the double-remodel part, though, even on the one-shot. It'd take a lot of extra text. I'll probably come up with a few versions to test.

Fund seems powerful. I am thankful that its +Buy makes trashing it an interesting decision (oh, and I love that you get to keep a Silver afterwards. Feodum could possibly love this). In fact, without that +Buy I would say it's a boring card that just accelerates into Gold, but since that +Buy is there it encourages building engines and other cool combos built out of cheap buys.

Thanks. Yeah, I'm really hoping Fund is OK as it is. I like its simplicity. I have some concerns about it, but that's true for all my cards to some extent.

Inventor is clever, though it isn't a one-shot. Being able to tuck it away to get it to collide with what I want (or even when I draw multiples together) is an awesome effect. My only complaint is that "Inventor" sounds like it should provide +Cards (production), some sort of Remodel effect (tinkering with things), and\or some sort of Workshop effect (building devices). Could I recommend the name Bursary instead?

I'll consider changing the name, although like some Dominion cards, my group is pretty used to calling it Inventor now. At one point it drew 3 cards and then you could trash it for a Remodel effect. The name Inventor made more sense then.

Tax Collector doesn't make me excited. Its new Attack effect is common among Fan-cards (though the exclusion of Coppers is smart).

Fair enough. They can't all be gems, I suppose. Did you prefer the old Tax Collector?

It may be a common attack effect, but I like the way I've implemented it. It works very smoothly and seems appropriate at $5 so far.

It also doesn't seem very flavorful since a lot of Tax Collectors were practically thieves in olden times.

I kept the name out of convenience because searching for art is difficult. I'd be happy to change it. I'll try to brainstorm better options.

Also, the way the parenthetical is positioned makes it sound like if the player reveals a hand of all Coppers I can have him put his entire hand on top of his deck.

Yeah, I was aware of that, but I can't think of a better way to phrase it. I think it's pretty clear and the hypothetical FAQ could easily clarify it. I suppose I could say that each player sets aside a card from his hand other than a Copper (or reveals a hand with all Copper), but that seems a little strange.

I like the idea of Profiteer more-- discarding Victory cards for coins-- but that effect becomes really strong towards the end of the game. It likely would not be purchased until one's later shuffles which would make the Conscripts more damaging to other players than helpful (unless it put the Conscripts into their hands to ensure that they get a chance at gaining Golds that they could use and cursing you).

Yes, these issues had also occurred to me, which is why I have yet to even playtest the card, let alone post it here. I'm no longer considering adding it to this 12-card version of the set, but I am trying to fix up a good version of it for when I expand the set to 25 cards.

Thanks for all your feedback! Sorry if I'm pushing back too much. I appreciate your ideas, especially those concerning Exchange. By the way, how do you feel about the current, persistent version of Surveyor?
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Fragasnap

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #140 on: March 31, 2013, 01:16:21 pm »
+1

Thanks for all your feedback! Sorry if I'm pushing back too much.
Of course you are not pushing back to much. Enterprise is your set and all feedback should be taken with a grain of salt.

I'll admit that [Clerk's] action effect may not be the most interesting, but I doubt it needs a power boost. The deck-reordering effect is simply a side effect of putting the cards back; it's not meant to be part of the card's power. It's…difficult to describe why Clerk is as strong as it is. You wouldn't necessarily think that a card that's [+2 Cards; or +1 Card, +$1; or +$2] would be powerful. It seems like a weak Steward, but the ability to see what the cards are first really makes all the difference.
...
Sort of like Jack of all Trades, Clerk is something you have to play to really get your head around its utility. Not that Clerk's action effect is as strong as Jack's; the reaction bit is definitely a big part of the card's utility.
My concern is that Clerk's reaction is hard to use since it has to be in your hand when an Attack is played and you need to have cards to trash in your hand when those events line up. Of course, that is assuming there is an Attack in the particular game. In a number of games, there will be no way to use Clerk for its reaction, so it will have to be evaluated purely in terms of its action effect which has plenty of utility, but I think could be a smidge stronger without breaking the card or infringing on other card's space.
You are probably right though. Card organization tends to be underestimated.

I guess I haven't had the same experience with [Enforcer] as you have. The effect for you will hurt if your deck is cluttered with Victory cards and Curses, but it's a great asset it most engine decks, especially ones with powerful cantrips and no Copper trashing.

The Attack isn't that strong, but it's about on par with Spy.
Most engine decks will still drop $3 to $6 in Treasures to pick up their Provinces (if not more). There are fewer games where there are enough +actions and virtual coin to get up to Provinces than those that drawing Treasures works better.
As such, discarding Treasures is generally a bad thing, so in many games Enforcer will be measured primarily by its Attack, which is frankly too hit or miss to be incredibly useful. Is there any way it could be worded nicely to allow Attackers to leave both cards on the deck?
Also, it still feels bad when you trash Enforcer: Did you think about letting it attack when it is played or trashed it the same way Noble Brigand attacks when you play or buy it?

Fair enough. They can't all be gems, I suppose. Did you prefer the old Tax Collector?
I think I do prefer the old Tax Collector (yeah, I am one of those guys who likes to trash others' cards), though I do not like $6 Attacks as reaching $6 can be moderately difficult dependent upon the table and often the Attack will prevent other players from reaching $6 as easily. Maybe Profiteer's "When you gain this, each other player gains a Conscripts from the Conscripts pile." could be appended to the old Tax Collector for balance at $5?
Though then you would probably want to give Tax Collector some kind of military name like Infantry or Cavalry to fit with Militia's hand attack and Knights' trashing.

[Tax Collector's] may be a common attack effect, but I like the way I've implemented it. It works very smoothly and seems appropriate at $5 so far.
It is a common Attack effect because it is a good idea (oh, and your implementation is really nice). It is an idea I am quite fond of, in fact, but its deck manipulation seems somewhat out of place in a set about one-shots. I suppose I am somewhat biased as the set I have been working on is actually based around deck manipulation and sifting. It is your call, really.

Yeah, I was aware of that, but I can't think of a better way to phrase it. I think it's pretty clear and the hypothetical FAQ could easily clarify it. I suppose I could say that each player sets aside a card from his hand other than a Copper (or reveals a hand with all Copper), but that seems a little strange.
Put the parenthetical at the end. It becomes rather distended, but makes it clearly separate from the rest of the effect.

By the way, how do you feel about the current, persistent version of Surveyor?
I do not like it as much. I viewed the $2 one-shot Surveyor as a place-holder: I buy it and use it until it collides with an expensive card I want multiple of, and then it vanishes. +2 Cards as a terminal action is a pretty weak effect that I likely do not want to have in my deck unless there is a Village-type that is more than a cantrip (such as Bazaar or Bandit Camp). The fact that it vanishes from my deck actually makes it easier for me to purchase, simply because I can use it until I get a bunch of better actions and then it throws itself out. If you made it put the card on top of your deck rather than discarding it, I imagine it would be a great $2 one-shot.

I completely missed Boycott somehow. I really liked it when it was a one-shot gold at $4, but moving Supply piles was fiddly and the fact that it was a one-shot meant its unique ability would be ignored pretty shortly after the game begins.
I do like cards that manipulate the start and end of the game, like this new Boycott does to some extent. I lament that it is no longer a one-shot, but it probably was a necessary change. Now its vanilla effect is kind of boring, but that could be all right.
Now I mostly worry that it can only cut Kingdom cards out of the Supply. The problem is that some really fun strategies need a variety of cards to work, but Big Money works on every table. Could Boycott allow its token to be moved to any non-empty pile that costs $1 or more? Could there possibly be more than 1 Boycott token (and disallow Boycotting Boycott)? Could it have an optional Peddler effect (+1 Action, +$1, your may trash this for +1 Card)? You set is missing one of those. Also the phrase "Cards in that pile cannot be bought or gained" is redundant and better suited to the hypothetical FAQ.
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probbins79

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #141 on: April 02, 2013, 06:36:40 pm »
+1

I love the ideas for these cards! They are far better than others I have encountered for Dominion.  Inventor is my favorite; simple, but highly useful.  I'm surprised Donald X. hasn't made a card like this yet!  I also really like Fund and Floodgate, and Boycott looks quite interesting, but potentially frustrating!  The only significant problem I see is with Surveyor.  It is too strong.  +2 Cards and I can duplicate anything that's not a victory card? Wow! I'm filling my deck with Platinum, Goons, Expand, Bank, Grand Market, Forge, and all those other expensive cards with a measly cost 4 card! Not to mention Possession and Golem! (That could get crazy). Whoever invests in these is bound to win. Now, if it trashed itself, it would work.  Especially since you are already going for a one-shot theme.  If it was something like, "If the card you gain is worth more than 5, trash this."  Without a limitation like that, it's OP (overpowered).  Especially for someone like me who keeps his deck light.  I could buy one or two, cycle through my deck in a few turns, and be ready to boost my inventory significantly, over and over.  I would be unstoppable.  You could also make it not OP if it were pricier. Say, 7.  That makes it a bit of a gamble (as, in my opinion, most cards should be).  A prohibitive cost for some, with limited returns, but an investment with a serious payoff for others.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #142 on: April 03, 2013, 01:50:40 pm »
+1

I love the ideas for these cards! They are far better than others I have encountered for Dominion.  Inventor is my favorite; simple, but highly useful.  I'm surprised Donald X. hasn't made a card like this yet!  I also really like Fund and Floodgate, and Boycott looks quite interesting, but potentially frustrating!

Thanks! I'm really glad you like the cards. The set's been a long time in development and is still undergoing changes.

The only significant problem I see is with Surveyor.  It is too strong.  +2 Cards and I can duplicate anything that's not a victory card? Wow! I'm filling my deck with Platinum, Goons, Expand, Bank, Grand Market, Forge, and all those other expensive cards with a measly cost 4 card! Not to mention Possession and Golem! (That could get crazy). Whoever invests in these is bound to win. Now, if it trashed itself, it would work.  Especially since you are already going for a one-shot theme.  If it was something like, "If the card you gain is worth more than 5, trash this."  Without a limitation like that, it's OP (overpowered).  Especially for someone like me who keeps his deck light.  I could buy one or two, cycle through my deck in a few turns, and be ready to boost my inventory significantly, over and over.  I would be unstoppable.  You could also make it not OP if it were pricier. Say, 7.  That makes it a bit of a gamble (as, in my opinion, most cards should be).  A prohibitive cost for some, with limited returns, but an investment with a serious payoff for others.

The funny thing is, Surveyor was a one-shot that cost $2 less than a week ago. I just changed it to its current state because it wasn't a very popular card in my playtest games. Since then I've got a fair amount of negative feedback here in this thread, so I'm leaning more and more toward making it a one-shot again.

In either form, it's not as powerful as it looks, unfortunately. The fact that you have to discard the card you're duplicating really hurts. You can duplicate a Platinum, sure. But it still likely costs you $5 this turn to do so and in the meantime you've got a mediocre +2 Cards action in your deck. I first tried the persistent version at $5, but it seemed quite weak, so I bumped it down to $4.

As much as I'd rather not have two $2 cards in this small set, I think I'm going to have to return Surveyor to its $2 one-shot version and possibly buff it a little. However, I'm considering changing Boycott again. Here's the version I'm considering:

Tariff
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+$2. You may put the Tariff marker on any nonempty Supply pile.

Setup: Put the Tariff marker on the Tariff pile. Cards in the pile with the Tariff marker cost $2 more.


I think it's more interesting than outright blocking a pile, and could result in some interesting combos as well. Of course you can put the Tariff marker on cards that you don't want your opponents to buy. You could also tariff the Coppers or Estates to help your trash-for-benefit cards. You could tariff Band of Misfits so that it could mimic $5 and $6 Action cards in the Supply.

For interactions with cost-reduction cards, cost increases would always be applied before cost decreases. It's quite possible this card leads to some crazy broken combos, but I hope not. The idea seems promising.
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math

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #143 on: April 03, 2013, 07:54:53 pm »
+1

The way Tariff is worded now, it only affects cards in the pile, not cards in hands.  Also, does this mean that the first Tariff bought will cost $4?
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Fragasnap

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #144 on: April 03, 2013, 08:46:08 pm »
+1

As much as I'd rather not have two $2 cards in this small set, I think I'm going to have to return Surveyor to its $2 one-shot version and possibly buff it a little. However, I'm considering changing Boycott again. Here's the version I'm considering:

Tariff
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+$2. You may put the Tariff marker on any nonempty Supply pile.

Setup: Put the Tariff marker on the Tariff pile. Cards in the pile with the Tariff marker cost $2 more.


I think it's more interesting than outright blocking a pile, and could result in some interesting combos as well. Of course you can put the Tariff marker on cards that you don't want your opponents to buy. You could also tariff the Coppers or Estates to help your trash-for-benefit cards. You could tariff Band of Misfits so that it could mimic $5 and $6 Action cards in the Supply.
I think it is bad that the Copper pile can have the Tariff token on it. While awesome for things like Remodel and Salvager, it can possibly (though not likely) lock a player out of the game.

It's funny, but I was going to suggest almost exactly this to you in order to turn Boycott back into a one-shot. Here's the card I had:
Tariff
+$3
Trash this.
Choose one: Place a Tariff token onto a Supply pile that isn't Copper with no Tariff tokens on it;
or remove a Tariff token from a Supply pile.
Cards in and from Supply piles with Tariff tokens on them cost $2 more.
$4 ACTION
By letting it add or remove tokens, it makes the ability just as interactive (and further differentiates it from Embargo), the problem obviously being that it would allow the entire Supply to cost $2 more, so your version with only one token is probably better. I would still like to see it come back in-theme as a one-shot though.

The biggest issue I see with it is that any fun combo you want to do with it can be undermined by another player buying one and then it becomes a pretty big swingy mess if they don't trash themselves. This also reintroduces the card order problems for cards of changing long-term prices being introduced to the Kingdom.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #145 on: April 05, 2013, 01:35:53 pm »
0

The way Tariff is worded now, it only affects cards in the pile, not cards in hands.

Thanks for catching that! New wording:

Tariff
Types: Action
Cost: 2
+2 Coins. You may put the Tariff marker on any card in the Supply.
------------------------------------------------------------
Setup: Put the Tariff marker on the Tariff pile. Copies of the card that the Tariff marker is on cost 2 Coins more.

Also, does this mean that the first Tariff bought will cost $4?

Correct. I'm going to test it like that first and then perhaps test it with the marker starting off-board.

I think it is bad that the Copper pile can have the Tariff token on it. While awesome for things like Remodel and Salvager, it can possibly (though not likely) lock a player out of the game.

I see what you mean, but I'm not too worried about it. If it's a problem in playtesting, I'll try to fix it up. Honestly, I'm more concerned with a Tariff token on Silver. Although Tariffs after the first are a cheap source of coin (that can move the marker off of Silver), so it's probably not a big deal.

I would still like to see it come back in-theme as a one-shot though.

Although the set still has plenty of one-shots, it's slowly migrating toward a now-vs.-later theme. It's nice to have more than one theme in a set anyhow. Barracks, Inventor, Tax Collector, and Mill Town all fit that theme, as do many of the one-shots themselves (Fund, Floodgate, etc.).

The biggest issue I see with it is that any fun combo you want to do with it can be undermined by another player buying one and then it becomes a pretty big swingy mess if they don't trash themselves.

Well, you can still pull off the cool combos with an engine. I still have to playtest it to determine how it works in practice. As was discussed earlier in the thread, since the effects of Tariff are reversible, it makes more sense for it to be a persistent card.

This also reintroduces the card order problems for cards of changing long-term prices being introduced to the Kingdom.

Are you talking about the interaction between cost-raising and cost-lowering effects, or something else?
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Fragasnap

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #146 on: April 05, 2013, 02:41:03 pm »
+1

Are you talking about the interaction between cost-raising and cost-lowering effects, or something else?
In retrospect, that is unclear. I mean the physical order of the Supply piles. I keep the Kingdom in order by price then alphabet in order to let players see what they can afford more quickly. If a card costs $2 more, then it will need to be moved ahead of a bunch of other cards and the other cards need to be moved back. If I do not reorganize the Kingdom, I will have to deal with players forgetting the effect.

Copies of the card that the Tariff marker is on cost 2 Coins more.
With this wording, if the Supply is emptied the price drops to normal since there isn't a card under the marker. That is probably okay, but it stifles the fun interaction with cursers and trash-for-benefit since Curses drop to $0 once the pile is inevitably exhausted.

By the by, I played a game using Clerk. I underestimated how complex the decision is (but not how useful). It probably is best that it does not look at more than 2 cards. Its reaction made the game pretty tense as it was the strongest source of trashing on a table with Attack engine components.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #147 on: April 05, 2013, 03:26:06 pm »
0

I keep the Kingdom in order by price then alphabet in order to let players see what they can afford more quickly. If a card costs $2 more, then it will need to be moved ahead of a bunch of other cards and the other cards need to be moved back. If I do not reorganize the Kingdom, I will have to deal with players forgetting the effect.

Ah, I see. That's something I'll keep an eye out for when I playtest it. I'm hoping that with a large enough Tariff marker it won't be an issue. Currently I'm using the robber from my copy of Settlers of Catan.

Copies of the card that the Tariff marker is on cost 2 Coins more.
With this wording, if the Supply is emptied the price drops to normal since there isn't a card under the marker. That is probably okay, but it stifles the fun interaction with cursers and trash-for-benefit since Curses drop to $0 once the pile is inevitably exhausted.

Hmm, good call. I think I'm fine with this. It's an interesting interaction with Barracks/Conscripts, since in my experience the Curse pile often doesn't completely run out when Conscripts is the only curser available.

By the by, I played a game using Clerk. I underestimated how complex the decision is (but not how useful). It probably is best that it does not look at more than 2 cards. Its reaction made the game pretty tense as it was the strongest source of trashing on a table with Attack engine components.

Nice, thanks for testing that. How was the card overall? Was it interesting enough?
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SirPeebles

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #148 on: April 05, 2013, 08:19:10 pm »
+1

With a clear marker, I can't see it being any more confusing than Peddler, and surely you don't move the Peddler pile during each Buy phase.
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dondon151

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #149 on: April 07, 2013, 04:45:44 pm »
+1

If Tariff tokens on Copper or Silver (or even on basic Victory cards) become too much of problem, I'm sure there's a wording out there that can exclude the basic cards from the clause.
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