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Author Topic: Dominion: Enterprise  (Read 412299 times)

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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #75 on: January 27, 2013, 03:03:40 pm »
+3

I've finally gotten a bit more playtesting in with the cards, and I've made a few tweaks.

First of all, the wording on Exchange is fixed so that it doesn't count itself as a 'trashed card' for the purposes of gaining cards. (Thanks, Bron!) The wording of Enforcer has been simplified, but it's functionally the same.

Conscripts has had its '+$2' and 'gain a Silver' options replaced with '+$3' and 'gain a Gold'. It turns out this is not too powerful after all, since Conscripts is a one-shot that you sacrifice a fair bit of time to get your hands on.

I'm testing a new version of Clerk (I'm trying to differentiate it from Scavenger), but I'm not sure I'm happy with it yet. It digs for an Action to leave on top, and my wife used it and some Tunnels to empty the Gold pile and win handily. I probably didn't play my best, but it seems too cheap for a Tunnel enabler that's even better than Young Witch. We'll see how that shakes out.

The biggest reason I'm posting, though, is to get feedback on my latest version of Inventor. The most recent version was this:

Inventor
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Choose one: +3 Cards; or +1 Action and set this card aside, returning it to your hand at the start of your next turn.

There were concerns that it was too powerful (both for BM-strategies and engines) and that the setting aside meant that there was no opportunity cost for repeatedly setting it aside.

To remedy these issues, it was suggested that it put itself back on top of the deck instead. I didn't like this exact solution because it meant that two Inventors in hand always collided. Putting one back on your deck just meant drawing it dead with the other one. Putting both back on your deck meant getting only 3 other cards in your next hand to get a Village.

The new versions looks like this:

Inventor
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Choose one: +3 Cards and +1 Buy; or +1 Action and put this anywhere in your deck.

So it's never an 'extra' card in hand, like it would be if you set it aside. But if you draw two Inventors in a hand, you can play one, put it four cards down in your deck, and play the other one for +3 Cards. Of course, you can't do this if you don't have at least three cards in your deck, so it's not a guaranteed solution. Also, I gave it an extra buy, having removed the +1 Buy from Tax Collector. I think it'll give it more utility in more situations without boosting its power too much.

I'm going to test it more, of course. I'm hoping this will be the last iteration of the card. If you have an opinion about the new version, I'd love to hear it!
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 03:33:38 pm by LastFootnote »
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theory

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #76 on: January 27, 2013, 03:09:28 pm »
+1

When placing it "anywhere" in your deck, does that mean you get to see your deck?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #77 on: January 27, 2013, 03:10:25 pm »
+1

When placing it "anywhere" in your deck, does that mean you get to see your deck?

No, it works similarly to Stash. But since you know where the Inventor is when you're placing it, it doesn't need a different back.

EDIT: A little more background info: at first I was testing a version that said, "+1 Action and put this on the top or bottom of your deck." Then I realized, why not let you put it anywhere? The answer to that question is AP, but I'm hoping that's not going to turn out to be an issue. The 'anywhere in your deck' wording is slightly simpler and much cooler.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 03:14:12 pm by LastFootnote »
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #78 on: January 27, 2013, 03:22:44 pm »
+1

Another option would be "Put this on top of your deck, then put the bottom 3 cards of your deck on top of your deck."

Alternatively, the +3 cards could come from the bottom of your deck.

Not that your solution doesn't work; just more options.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #79 on: January 27, 2013, 07:07:39 pm »
+1

What happens if I gain a Nomad Camp using Exchange?  Where does it go?  Exchange says that the gained card goes to my hand, while Nomad Camp says that it goes to the top of my deck. 

You could phrase it as gaining the cards first, and then moving them to your hand.  But if you trash two Estates into Nomad Camps, then one of them will be covered up, so Exchange will lose track of it.  In fact, even without Nomad Camp, this "fix" would cause one of the two cards to be covered up in the discard pile, so I suppose it's no good.

Edit:  As a related issue, if you gain an Inn directly to your hand, does that mean you cannot shuffle it into your deck?  It's a little ambiguous in Inn's text, since it says to look through your discard pile for actions "(including this)", since ordinarily when you gain the Inn it will be in your discard pile.  It seems like if Exchange gains directly to your hand, then when you gain an Inn you'd be able to shuffle in your other actions, but not this new Inn, since it's an action in your hand, and not in fact an action in your discard pile.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 07:15:19 pm by SirPeebles »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #80 on: January 28, 2013, 12:02:55 am »
+1

These are good questions.

What happens if I gain a Nomad Camp using Exchange?  Where does it go?  Exchange says that the gained card goes to my hand, while Nomad Camp says that it goes to the top of my deck. 

It's not exactly an official ruling, but you can find what Donald has to say about this here. Until and unless an actual ruling is made, I'd go with his semi-ruling and say that you get to choose whether it goes to your hand or the top of your deck.

Edit:  As a related issue, if you gain an Inn directly to your hand, does that mean you cannot shuffle it into your deck?  It's a little ambiguous in Inn's text, since it says to look through your discard pile for actions "(including this)", since ordinarily when you gain the Inn it will be in your discard pile.  It seems like if Exchange gains directly to your hand, then when you gain an Inn you'd be able to shuffle in your other actions, but not this new Inn, since it's an action in your hand, and not in fact an action in your discard pile.

This question has a more concrete answer than the previous one. Even though Inn says "(including this)", that only applies if it's in your discard pile. There are other reasons it might not be. You might have played a Highway and gained an Inn with Armory, for instance.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 12:36:42 am by LastFootnote »
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Minotaur

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #81 on: January 30, 2013, 05:48:53 pm »
+1

This is a nice little fan expansion. It strikes just the right amount of boldness and feels like it fits in with the effects and wording of other cards. Nothing truly mind-bending, but it feels right at home and convincingly sustains a theme. The art picks fit well too. Maybe if it were a real set, a couple more persistent cards could be added that relate to a theme of "enterprise" in some other way. No point in rushing to add more unless they fit, though.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #82 on: February 06, 2013, 04:20:14 pm »
+2

I've gotten feedback from several people that using Barracks to gain Conscripts seems too weak. People are very perceptive! It was weak. Even when I bumped Conscripts to be "Choose 2: +$3/gain Gold/give Curses/play Attack card", it was beaten by decks that ignored Attacks. This surprised me; that version of Conscripts seemed so powerful! It took me a while to get over my mental block and realize just how slow it is. It's slower than any official Curse-giver out there, even Familiar. You opponents have a lot of time to get a good deck going before you start cursing them, and chances are you won't run out the Curse pile before the game ends.

While thinking about options for changing Barracks and Conscripts, it occurred to me that I've unintentionally added a second theme to the entire set. It's the decision between instant and delayed gratification. Part of this is a natural result of having several cards that can be trashed when played. Do you take the bonus now, or save it for later? But even some of the non-one shots have it. Inventor can give you cards and a buy now or save itself for later. The current version of Clerk I'm testing also has the ability to put cards either in hand or back on your deck.

But nowhere is this theme more pronounced than in Barracks. One option lets you draw an Attack card in place of your Barracks and play it this turn. It often also provides a bunch of cycling, letting you get to your new purchases sooner. The other option does nothing for you this turn. It doesn't even replace the Barracks in your hand. You won't see the Conscripts for another shuffle. It's slow. Anyhow, I've pumped up the cards while embracing this now/later dichotomy.

Barracks
Types: Action
Cost: 5
+1 Action. Choose one: gain 2 Conscripts from the Conscripts pile; or reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Attack card, put that Attack card into your hand, and discard the other revealed cards.

Conscripts
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: 0*
Return this to the Conscripts pile. Gain a Gold. Each other player gains a Curse. You may play an Attack card from your hand. (This is not in the Supply.)

The first big difference is that you get two Conscripts cards instead of one when you pick the first option on Barracks. The second is that instead of giving you a choice from 2 of 4 effects with Conscripts, you always get the last three. I took off the +$3 option, which (unintentially) amplified the dealyed gratification effect. You won't see the Gold you gain until next shuffle; likewise with your opponent's Curse.

I've tested this version in several mock games, and it seems to strike a good balance. Importantly, it seems to encourage you to use both of Barracks' abilities in most games. Using it just for gaining Conscripts is too slow for many games. Choosing the cycling option gets those Golds into your deck faster.

Barracks effectively takes up two Kingdom card slots in the "box", so it's got to be a star of the set. Hopefully this version works out. Any opinions on the cards just from looking at them? This community has good instincts, and as always I appreciate any feedback.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 05:45:08 pm by LastFootnote »
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TWoos

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #83 on: February 06, 2013, 08:40:58 pm »
+1

Barracks effectively takes up two Kingdom card slots in the "box", so it's got to be a star of the set. Hopefully this version works out. Any opinions on the cards just from looking at them? This community has good instincts, and as always I appreciate any feedback.

Looks like a good improvement.  Especially removing the choose two from Conscripts.  However, now that Barracks allows you to pick up two Conscripts, have you considered how many Conscripts the game should have?

I'd suggest more than 10.  Maybe not 20, since they to return to the Conscripts pile with every use.  15 might be good.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #84 on: February 06, 2013, 09:47:55 pm »
+1

Barracks effectively takes up two Kingdom card slots in the "box", so it's got to be a star of the set. Hopefully this version works out. Any opinions on the cards just from looking at them? This community has good instincts, and as always I appreciate any feedback.

Looks like a good improvement.  Especially removing the choose two from Conscripts.  However, now that Barracks allows you to pick up two Conscripts, have you considered how many Conscripts the game should have?

I'd suggest more than 10.  Maybe not 20, since they to return to the Conscripts pile with every use.  15 might be good.

I'm designing this like a real 150 card set, so it will be either 15 or 16, depending on whether I end up using a card to mark the banned pile for my current version of Boycott. During playtesting, I've been using 16 copies.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 09:48:58 pm by LastFootnote »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #85 on: February 07, 2013, 02:50:17 am »
+1

You could use the boycott randomiser as the boycott pile.

Also as posted in another thread, have you considered putting +2 actions on Enforcer or Exchange? With Enforcer, there'd be an interesting thing with it being a highly unstable engine piece,  as well as being the first +2 actions attack.

Exchange having +2 actions means that you can gain 2 terminal actions and play them both that turn. Very justifiably a $5 oneshot. It also definitely looks like a +2 actions kind of place in the artwork.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 02:55:35 am by NoMoreFun »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #86 on: February 07, 2013, 03:04:05 am »
+1

Tax collector seems like a much better Pillage (not a oneshot, trashes instead of discards, +$2) because it will usually be a very helpful card that's being trashed. Early game it will be their best card, while late game there'll have to be important greening related tradeoffs.

Perhaps make the cheaper card go on top of the deck to give the affected opponent some strategic opportunities. Thematically it would be like giving THEM a oneshot.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #87 on: February 07, 2013, 08:40:39 am »
+2

as well as being the first +2 actions attack.

Dame Molly?
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #88 on: February 07, 2013, 11:07:23 am »
+1

Barracks effectively takes up two Kingdom card slots in the "box", so it's got to be a star of the set. Hopefully this version works out. Any opinions on the cards just from looking at them? This community has good instincts, and as always I appreciate any feedback.

Looks like a good improvement.  Especially removing the choose two from Conscripts.  However, now that Barracks allows you to pick up two Conscripts, have you considered how many Conscripts the game should have?

I'd suggest more than 10.  Maybe not 20, since they to return to the Conscripts pile with every use.  15 might be good.

I'm designing this like a real 150 card set, so it will be either 15 or 16, depending on whether I end up using a card to mark the banned pile for my current version of Boycott. During playtesting, I've been using 16 copies.

15 has the advantage of matching Spoils, also.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #89 on: February 07, 2013, 11:53:19 am »
+1

You could use the boycott randomiser as the boycott pile.

Yes, I may end up doing that, but it might be nice if it looked noticeably different than the normal Boycott cards, to prevent confusion.

Also as posted in another thread, have you considered putting +2 actions on Enforcer or Exchange? With Enforcer, there'd be an interesting thing with it being a highly unstable engine piece,  as well as being the first +2 actions attack.

Exchange having +2 actions means that you can gain 2 terminal actions and play them both that turn. Very justifiably a $5 oneshot. It also definitely looks like a +2 actions kind of place in the artwork.

Well, the reason I haven't done this already is that I think people generally want stable villages. Furthermore, that might very well push Enforcer up out of $4 territory. I could get rid of the attack portion of it, but then it'd be too similar to Gambler in my mind.

I'm strongly leaning toward adding it to Exchange, though, for the reasons you mention. I'll certainly test that out immediately. There are enough one-shots in the set that perhaps having a one-shot village isn't such an issue.

Tax collector seems like a much better Pillage (not a oneshot, trashes instead of discards, +$2) because it will usually be a very helpful card that's being trashed. Early game it will be their best card, while late game there'll have to be important greening related tradeoffs.

Well, Pillage does gain you two Spoils and Tax Collector costs $6, but your point is well taken.

Perhaps make the cheaper card go on top of the deck to give the affected opponent some strategic opportunities. Thematically it would be like giving THEM a oneshot.

Now we're cooking with gas. Regardless of whether Tax Collector needs a nerf, I like this change because it incentivizes gaining Treasures and Actions rather than Victory cards (unless you think you won't get to draw them). The original version of Tax Collector didn't allow you to gain replacement Victory cards at all. I think this is a very nice compromise. I'll test it out.

Thanks for the ideas!
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #90 on: February 07, 2013, 02:54:39 pm »
+1

15 has the advantage of matching Spoils, also.

Well, like Conscripts, Prizes, and even Potions, I'm sure the exact number of Spoils included in Dark Ages was a function of how many cards were needed to fill out the box. Obviously the ballpark number for these cards is a function of necessity. It would be crazy to have 16 Prizes or only 5 Potions. But the exact number isn't crucial. For instance, Alchemy could have had another Victory card and I'm sure 14 Potions would have sufficed.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #91 on: February 07, 2013, 07:34:00 pm »
+1

My other suggestions are:
*Clerk seems a bit too similar to Scavenger, but I guess the fact that you don't do a Chancellor effect makes it more similar to Bureaucrat and still interesting. Might be a bit weak for $4; I'd suggest making the gain more flexible but then it's stepping on Armory's turf. The reaction is the card's real power though; it may even be stalemate inducing. I pity the man who decides to build a Scrying Pool deck, only to seriously enable you to build your own much faster. Have you considered "trash this and any number of cards from your hand", or making it a discard reaction?

*Perhaps you could make Conscripts more like Spoils and give multiple cards the power to gain them? It doesn't seem like there's much room though. A card with room for "when you trash this, gain a Conscripts" is Inventor, and it could work thematically (the inventor was out of the job, so he got drafted into the army).  Gambler may also have room for something (in terms of words on the card), and that card could do with something to make it more meaningful than a harmless early game trasher. It would need a "Hermit"/"Urchin" sort of clause though, and the card's beauty is in its simplicity. Mind you, a degenerate Gambler will probably find himself needing to join the Conscripts when his luck's really far down.

*For tracking reasons (as well as to give it a bit of a boost for the "miss the reshuffle" power), perhaps set the Floodgate aside as well when you gain it?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 07:56:49 pm by NoMoreFun »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #92 on: February 07, 2013, 07:55:25 pm »
+1

*Clerk seems a bit too similar to Scavenger, but I guess the fact that you don't do a Chancellor effect makes it more similar to Bureaucrat and still interesting. Might be a bit weak for $4; I'd suggest making the gain more flexible but then it's stepping on Armory's turf. The reaction is the card's real power though; it may even be stalemate inducing. I pity the man who decides to build a Scrying Pool deck, only to seriously enable you to build your own much faster. Have you considered "trash this and any number of cards from your hand", or making it a discard reaction?

Yes, Clerk was one of the casualties of Dark Ages. It was such a unique card before Scavenger was released. :)
I'm currently testing another version of Clerk.

Clerk
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: 4
Look at the top 2 cards of your deck and draw any number of them; +$1 for each one you put back.

When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, trash any number of cards from your hand.

The reaction hasn't been a problem so far, although I grant you that I haven't played with it and Scrying Pool yet. For most Attacks, you just don't want to buy them on turns 1 and 2. After that, the chance that the player with Clerk having more than two card in hand that he wants to trash is slim. I have considered making it a discard-based Reaction. While I'm not dismissing the idea outright, it would make the card so, so much weaker.

*Perhaps you could make Conscripts more like Spoils and give multiple cards the power to gain them? It doesn't seem like there's much room though. A card with room for "when you trash this, gain a Conscripts" is Inventor, and it could work thematically (the inventor was out of the job, so he got drafted into the army).  Gambler may also have room for something (in terms of words on the card), and that card could do with something to make it more meaningful than a harmless early game trasher. It would need a "Hermit"/"Urchin" sort of clause though, and the card's beauty is in its simplicity.

Nice thought. It had occurred to me as well, but I don't know where I'd stick that.

*For tracking reasons (as well as to give it a bit of a boost for the "miss the reshuffle" power), perhaps set the Floodgate aside as well when you gain it?

I'd considered this as well. That could be quite a power boost, I think. If Floodgate is too weak, it's definitely the first thing I'll try (but I'll probably also limit the number of other set-aside cards to 4 if I make that change).
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #93 on: February 07, 2013, 08:03:37 pm »
+1

Also the OP has the old version of Conscripts, and is inconsistent about whether inventor has +buy.

I think giving Inventor a when trash Conscripts just helps shoehorn it into the original (one-shot) theme much better, and when trash effects on powerful cards seem mostly arbitrary anyway.

One last thought: Gambler's got the same issue as Wishing Well in that most of the top deck related combos (eg Spy) don't work to ensure safe trashing. Perhaps you could reverse the effects (gamble first, then draw)? I always found that aspect of Wishing Well frustrating. EDIT: Mind you, Gambler would be the only non terminal trasher in Dominion that doesn't decrease your hand size, and one of very few trashers in general (along with Masquerade and potentially JOAT) that doesn't decrease your hand size. Perhaps it's too strong if you can combo it with every top deck related card, but those cards aren't particularly strong in most cases, and you're also forgoing the useful effect of cards like Spy (discarding the junk for sifting) for this potential combo.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 08:24:08 pm by NoMoreFun »
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SirPeebles

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #94 on: February 07, 2013, 08:51:41 pm »
+1

EDIT: Mind you, Gambler would be the only non terminal trasher in Dominion that doesn't decrease your hand size

There's Spice Merchant, but it only trashes Treasures.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #95 on: February 07, 2013, 09:16:23 pm »
+1

Also the OP has the old version of Conscripts, and is inconsistent about whether inventor has +buy.

Ah, thanks for catching the Inventor inconsistency. I've updated the OP to include the +1 Buy. I'm just about to update the card image for Conscripts now, which is why you see the old one in the OP. For my mock games, I was using the old version as a proxy.

I think giving Inventor a when trash Conscripts just helps shoehorn it into the original (one-shot) theme much better, and when trash effects on powerful cards seem mostly arbitrary anyway.

I appreciate the idea, but it seems a bit forced for my liking. I'm OK with having Inventor not tie directly into the one-shot theme. I definitely want to have a few off-theme cards.

One last thought: Gambler's got the same issue as Wishing Well in that most of the top deck related combos (eg Spy) don't work to ensure safe trashing. Perhaps you could reverse the effects (gamble first, then draw)? I always found that aspect of Wishing Well frustrating. EDIT: Mind you, Gambler would be the only non terminal trasher in Dominion that doesn't decrease your hand size, and one of very few trashers in general (along with Masquerade and potentially JOAT) that doesn't decrease your hand size. Perhaps it's too strong if you can combo it with every top deck related card, but those cards aren't particularly strong in most cases, and you're also forgoing the useful effect of cards like Spy (discarding the junk for sifting) for this potential combo.

Well, Gambler's whole card concept is pretty much the blind trashing. It was definitely balanced around the fact that it's very hard to know what that card's going to be (no handsize reduction, etc.). I think that reversing the effects would probably make it too strong.

On a side note, I've started picking up Gamblers in the mid to late game, and it doesn't seem to be too bad, which surprised me. I guess it makes sense, though. There are lots of situations in which your deck has enough Silver, for instance.
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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #96 on: February 08, 2013, 12:29:47 pm »
+2

I've updated the first post with new images and descriptions for Clerk, Barracks, and Conscripts.

I've also printed out new cards for Tax Collector (with putting the gained card on deck), Floodgate (with setting aside the Floodgate), Boycott (with one Boycott pile instead of three), and Exchange (with +2 Actions), but won't update the OP until I've tested out those changes. I'll be without internet access from the 10th to the 17th, but I hope to get some playtesting done over that period. NoMoreFun, thanks again for the various suggestions!
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 01:51:22 pm by LastFootnote »
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TWoos

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #97 on: February 08, 2013, 04:13:58 pm »
+1

I've also printed out new cards for Tax Collector (with putting the gained card on deck), Floodgate (with setting aside the Floodgate), Boycott (with one Boycott pile instead of three), and Exchange (with +2 Actions), but won't update the OP until I've tested out those changes. I'll be without internet access from the 10th to the 17th, but I hope to get some playtesting done over that period. NoMoreFun, thanks again for the various suggestions!

Awesome.  This is by far my favorite fan-made expansion.

What was the change to Boycott?  I don't recall seeing a post about it.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 04:45:21 pm by TWoos »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #98 on: February 08, 2013, 04:42:22 pm »
+1

I've also printed out new cards for Tax Collector (with putting the gained card on deck), Floodgate (with setting aside the Floodgate), Boycott (with one Boycott pile instead of three), and Exchange (with +2 Actions), but won't update the OP until I've tested out those changes. I'll be without internet access from the 10th to the 17th, but I hope to get some playtesting done over that period. NoMoreFun, thanks again for the various suggestions!
Awesome.  This is by far my favorite fan-made expansion.

Thanks! I really appreciate the encouragement.

Quote
What was the change to Boycott?  I don't recall seeing a post about it.

I've found that having a three-pile sideboard makes Boycott very cumbersome to set up and not very accessible. I think players avoid the card because they don't want to think about all the options. Also, swapping piles between the Supply and the sideboard often meant that the piles were out of cost order, which many players (including me) like to keep them in. I found myself avoiding games with Boycott just because of all the extra hassle. So, I'm going to try a version of Boycott that adds one additional pile in the Supply (like Young Witch) and uses a marker to indicate the pile that's not currently in the Supply. The marker will either be the Boycott randomizer or a unique marker card, although I plan to use a Settlers robber piece for my testing.

Boycott's probably the most unique card in the set in terms of new game mechanics, and I'd like to keep it if possible. I hope I can get to a version that I feel really works and is different enough from Embargo to be worthwhile. Just in case it doesn't work out, I've been developing a possible replacement card. Hopefully it won't come to that.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 04:44:15 pm by LastFootnote »
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion: Enterprise
« Reply #99 on: February 08, 2013, 04:43:54 pm »
+1

You could add 2 or 3 piles and just include enough markers to cover the extras.
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