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[LastFootnote]

You could always make it a copper variant. It would be somewhere between Talisman and Quarry. I don't know, I'm just brainstorming.

Like this?

Investment: Treasure, $4
Worth $1. When you play this, you may pay a Trade token to gain a card costing up to $5. Otherwise, take a Trade token.

I guess that's an option. Seems like it could work.

[LastFootnote]

[pacovf]

Woh, that craftsman looks quite sexy. Despite the comparison with Merchant Guild, I think you should consider upping it to +2 coins.

EDIT: the big difference with your previous version is that, if you want to gain a card the second time you play Craftsman, you have to buy 2 cards the first time you play it, otherwise you will have to wait until your third Craftsman. The other big difference is that, after that first craftsman, you may be able to gain a 5$ with each Craftsman, as long as you play around it.
The big difference with Merchant Guild is that you have to wait until the next time you play Craftsman to use the tokens, while MG can use them whenever, and that Craftsman can only use tokens to gain 5$ cards, while MG can use tokens to get Provinces and whatnot.

[LastFootnote]

Woh, that craftsman looks quite sexy. Despite the comparison with Merchant Guild, I think you should consider upping it to +2 coins.

EDIT: the big difference with your previous version is that, if you want to gain a card the second time you play Craftsman, you have to buy 2 cards the first time you play it, otherwise you will have to wait until your third Craftsman. The other big difference is that, after that first craftsman, you may be able to gain a 5$ with each Craftsman, as long as you play around it.
The big difference with Merchant Guild is that you have to wait until the next time you play Craftsman to use the tokens, while MG can use them whenever, and that Craftsman can only use tokens to gain 5$ cards, while MG can use tokens to get Provinces and whatnot.

I am considering upping it to +$2. I think it would make it look much more attractive, but I'm leery about its power level. I was initially thinking +$0; just +1 Buy and that's it. But +Buy should almost always be paired with +Cards or +$. The other thing I don't love about the Merchant Guild-style version is, let's say it's the only Trade token card out there. If you get three of them in play and buy 4 cards, that's 12 tokens. Enough that you probably won't run out for the rest of the game. I mocked it up because it would be cool to have a Goons/Merchant Guild style thing for Trade tokens, but I'm not confident it'll work out.

The $4 Treasure version also looks strong to me, but I don't think I can make it weaker. It would probably look awful at $5. I like the idea of a Treasure that gets you tokens when played. In fact, I should really name it Trade Goods or some such. It occurred to me while driving into work today (after mocking up the image this morning) that I could just combine this with the old Investment/Magic Mirror.

Trade Goods: Treasure, $4
Worth $1. When you play this, you may pay a Trade token to gain a copy of a card of you have in play. Otherwise, take a Trade token.

How does that look?

[pacovf]

Woh, that craftsman looks quite sexy. Despite the comparison with Merchant Guild, I think you should consider upping it to +2 coins.

EDIT: the big difference with your previous version is that, if you want to gain a card the second time you play Craftsman, you have to buy 2 cards the first time you play it, otherwise you will have to wait until your third Craftsman. The other big difference is that, after that first craftsman, you may be able to gain a 5$ with each Craftsman, as long as you play around it.
The big difference with Merchant Guild is that you have to wait until the next time you play Craftsman to use the tokens, while MG can use them whenever, and that Craftsman can only use tokens to gain 5$ cards, while MG can use tokens to get Provinces and whatnot.

I am considering upping it to +$2. I think it would make it look much more attractive, but I'm leery about its power level. I was initially thinking +$0; just +1 Buy and that's it. But +Buy should almost always be paired with +Cards or +$. The other thing I don't love about the Merchant Guild-style version is, let's say it's the only Trade token card out there. If you get three of them in play and buy 4 cards, that's 12 tokens. Enough that you probably won't run out for the rest of the game. I mocked it up because it would be cool to have a Goons/Merchant Guild style thing for Trade tokens, but I'm not confident it'll work out.

Mmmm, it is clear that any Trade Token that you regularly gain with each Craftsman after the second one will be useless in the absence of extra TT cards, because you can't spend them any faster than that. The only way to fix that would be to let Craftsman spend an indefinite amount of TTs, but I am not sure that's such a great idea with a "gain a $5 card" effect, because of Duchies.

The $4 Treasure version also looks strong to me, but I don't think I can make it weaker. It would probably look awful at $5. I like the idea of a Treasure that gets you tokens when played. In fact, I should really name it Trade Goods or some such. It occurred to me while driving into work today (after mocking up the image this morning) that I could just combine this with the old Investment/Magic Mirror.

Trade Goods: Treasure, $4
Worth $1. When you play this, you may pay a Trade token to gain a copy of a card of you have in play. Otherwise, take a Trade token.

How does that look?

Tricky! You have to buy it in advance, but you don't know how long it will take before it will do something for you, and before then it's just a copper. Hard to tell if its effect will be enticing enough for people to buy it. I wonder how it will play in the presence of other TT cards.

[Co0kieL0rd]

These are both nice ideas. Investment is very simple and would probably a good buy on many boards. 2-4 of them in your deck would definitely get you somewhere. Also the card looks very good, aesthetically. The new Craftsman comes up with another interesting TT mechanism that looks viable to me. Although it looks a little weird at first that, unlike all other TT cards, you have to spend 2 tokens to get an effect. Are you sure it's even necessary from a balance standpoint?

I also like Trade Goods, although Pacovf has a point in that it will often take a long time before you can do good stuff with it. Could still be worth it, though, if the board is right. Maybe you could do a playtest with 2 players where one player can only have Trade Goods while to the other player all cards from the Trade Goods pile are Investments. Have you ever tried something like that? Or is it a stupid idea?

[LastFootnote]

Maybe you could do a playtest with 2 players where one player can only have Trade Goods while to the other player all cards from the Trade Goods pile are Investments. Have you ever tried something like that? Or is it a stupid idea?

It's not a stupid idea, but I only know one playtester who wouldn't mind putting up with that. Most of the players I test with are pretty casual. And when I play with that one guy, I'm almost always playing with others as well.

Tricky! You have to buy it in advance, but you don't know how long it will take before it will do something for you, and before then it's just a copper. Hard to tell if its effect will be enticing enough for people to buy it. I wonder how it will play in the presence of other TT cards.

Yeah. I'm hoping Trade Goods isn't an awful opening, honestly. By the time Turn 5 comes around, you should have at least one card in your deck that you want more copies of.

I think Trade Goods is the version I'm going to test first. I prefer when it's an interesting decision when to use your Trade tokens. Old Craftsman was at least a decision based on whether you had extra Actions. Investment and New Craftsman don't really have that so much. Trade Goods will, I think. Do you spend a token now to get a Village, or do you save it to get something better later?



I wish I could have found some more colorful artwork, but this could be worse.

[pacovf]

[LastFootnote]

Man, I thought I'd mistyped "mine" as "mint" or something before I realized the seagull connection.

[Co0kieL0rd]

Since you already mentioned it, I think the artwork on Trade Goods looks too realistic, almost like a photo, not the Dominion style.

[LastFootnote]

Since you already mentioned it, I think the artwork on Trade Goods looks too realistic, almost like a photo, not the Dominion style.

It's definitely a painting, but it is a bit monochromatic. I think the art on Investment is actually a photo, possibly with a filter applied to it.

[Minotaur]

Maybe you could do a playtest with 2 players where one player can only have Trade Goods while to the other player all cards from the Trade Goods pile are Investments. Have you ever tried something like that? Or is it a stupid idea?

It's not a stupid idea, but I only know one playtester who wouldn't mind putting up with that. Most of the players I test with are pretty casual. And when I play with that one guy, I'm almost always playing with others as well.

Tricky! You have to buy it in advance, but you don't know how long it will take before it will do something for you, and before then it's just a copper. Hard to tell if its effect will be enticing enough for people to buy it. I wonder how it will play in the presence of other TT cards.

Yeah. I'm hoping Trade Goods isn't an awful opening, honestly. By the time Turn 5 comes around, you should have at least one card in your deck that you want more copies of.

I think Trade Goods is the version I'm going to test first. I prefer when it's an interesting decision when to use your Trade tokens. Old Craftsman was at least a decision based on whether you had extra Actions. Investment and New Craftsman don't really have that so much. Trade Goods will, I think. Do you spend a token now to get a Village, or do you save it to get something better later?



I wish I could have found some more colorful artwork, but this could be worse.

More of a Magic Mirror variant?  The token gain/use makes it both cheaper and more flexible.  The set seems to be getting more token gainers lately.  That might not be a bad thing, but it's definitely at the point where you can't balance around the assumption that they're going to be really rare things that you get at most once per buy.

[LastFootnote]

More of a Magic Mirror variant?  The token gain/use makes it both cheaper and more flexible.  The set seems to be getting more token gainers lately.  That might not be a bad thing, but it's definitely at the point where you can't balance around the assumption that they're going to be really rare things that you get at most once per buy.

Trade Goods is meant to replace both Magic Mirror and Craftsman.

[Asper]

Since you already mentioned it, I think the artwork on Trade Goods looks too realistic, almost like a photo, not the Dominion style.

It's definitely a painting, but it is a bit monochromatic. I think the art on Investment is actually a photo, possibly with a filter applied to it.

I personally like the art of Trade Goods. Its monochromatism is something different, and either way not as noticeable on a Treasure. Quarry also didn't fall into a pool of rainbow. The art kind of makes me wish it had some parrallels to IGG, though, with all that Treasures-showing-birds-sitting-on-valuables going on...

[Awaclus]

Since you already mentioned it, I think the artwork on Trade Goods looks too realistic, almost like a photo, not the Dominion style.

It's definitely a painting, but it is a bit monochromatic. I think the art on Investment is actually a photo, possibly with a filter applied to it.

I personally like the art of Trade Goods. Its monochromatism is something different, and either way not as noticeable on a Treasure. Quarry also didn't fall into a pool of rainbow. The art kind of makes me wish it had some parrallels to IGG, though, with all that Treasures-showing-birds-sitting-on-valuables going on...

It sort of does. It gains you good cards, while IGG gives your opponent bad cards.

[Asper]

First i thought it was too weak. "Wow, you need to have a good card in play, and even then you have to spend a Token!" Then i realized that if you bought it early enough, you'd have played it a few times before you'd want to gain a card, anyhow. Using its TT for other cards is really just a minor bonus to me.

The only thing comparable i can think of is Talisman. Talisman is limited to non-VP cards, but as you usually can't play those anyhow, it makes only a minor difference. Both cards are Treasures, which you'll play late in your turn, so timing isn't that different, either. The deal-breaker is the fact that Talisman is limited to cards costing $4 or less, which is pretty huge. On the other hand, Trade Goods can only gain cards you allready have, meaning it will take longer to have an effect. That together with the TT restriction seems fine at $4. Of course you also have to spend a buy on Talisman, so i'd say Trade Goods is better all-in-all. Which isn't much, considering that Talisman isn't exactly a power card. I think it's fine.

[Minotaur]

First i thought it was too weak. "Wow, you need to have a good card in play, and even then you have to spend a Token!" Then i realized that if you bought it early enough, you'd have played it a few times before you'd want to gain a card, anyhow. Using its TT for other cards is really just a minor bonus to me.

The only thing comparable i can think of is Talisman. Talisman is limited to non-VP cards, but as you usually can't play those anyhow, it makes only a minor difference. Both cards are Treasures, which you'll play late in your turn, so timing isn't that different, either. The deal-breaker is the fact that Talisman is limited to cards costing $4 or less, which is pretty huge. On the other hand, Trade Goods can only gain cards you allready have, meaning it will take longer to have an effect. That together with the TT restriction seems fine at $4. Of course you also have to spend a buy on Talisman, so i'd say Trade Goods is better all-in-all. Which isn't much, considering that Talisman isn't exactly a power card. I think it's fine.

Yeah, Talisman sort of dooms itself to being a niche card in a way that this one doesn't.  With Talisman, I just hope that I can ignore it...

[XerxesPraelor]

So how do you find Terrace stacks up to Guide? It seems to me that the Mulligan option on Terrace is more of a bonus, and it's basically just a normal village. It does autocombo with starting engines, because one part is guaranteed, but it's worse when the point of guide is to set up some other combo besides a +Actions/+Cards engine.

[LastFootnote]

So how do you find Terrace stacks up to Guide? It seems to me that the Mulligan option on Terrace is more of a bonus, and it's basically just a normal village. It does autocombo with starting engines, because one part is guaranteed, but it's worse when the point of guide is to set up some other combo besides a +Actions/+Cards engine.

Yes, Terrace is one of the few Enterprise cards that is made less special by Adventures (another being Barter, now that Transmogrify is also remodel-to-hand). I haven't scrapped it yet, let's put it that way. In practice, players often use Terrace as draw-to-X, which isn't so much what Guide does (except against discard attacks). The fact that you can use it mid-turn is significant, is what I'm saying. They play pretty differently.

Astute readers may notice that I changed some names in the set a few months ago. Guide became Convoy and Exchange became Barter (to avoid confusion with the new "exchange" keyword. Don't read too much into it, though. There is no card called "Convocation" in Adventures. I just felt "Conclave" was more what I wanted to portray.

[qazzquimby]

Is there any way trade tokes could work as coin tokens from guilds? Set interaction is good, and it would keep people from needing another kind of token.

Also, if there are updated versions of the cards, as I think I see, could the first page be updated?

[LastFootnote]

Is there any way trade tokes could work as coin tokens from guilds? Set interaction is good, and it would keep people from needing another kind of token.

Also, if there are updated versions of the cards, as I think I see, could the first page be updated?

I haven't yet tested Trade Goods, which is why it's not in the first post. The first post is pretty up to date at this point. I hope to test Trade Goods sometime soon, but Enterprise development has been on hiatus for a little while.

Trade tokens definitely can't also work as Coin tokens with the cards as they exist. It would make them way stronger to have that flexibility. But I use the Embargo tokens from Seaside as Trade tokens. That way you don't need a new kind of token. It works out since Embargo tokens only go on piles and Trade tokens never do.

[NoMoreFun]

Why was Convoy changed? It's so much less interesting now,  the "play it again" makes less sense and it compares too easily to Smithy. The old card was genius.

[LastFootnote]

Why was Convoy changed? It's so much less interesting now,  the "play it again" makes less sense and it compares too easily to Smithy. The old card was genius.

It was way too slow and fiddly, which is a big problem with a card that you may be playing five times in a row. From the little I've played of the new one, it's a vast improvement. I agree it would be nicer if it didn't compare so easily to Smithy. R.I.P., old Convoy.

[NoMoreFun]

Old convoy,  even without the Trade token effect,  is probably the best designed sub $5 terminal drawer I've seen anywhere. It's not quite clear whether it's better than Smithy or not, which is hard to do.

Now you have 2 cards with a somewhat arbitrary looking  "discard a card", could that perhaps be a place to fill with something more investing?

[LastFootnote]

"Discard a card" is definitely not arbitrary on Mill Town; it's an important check on its power and also helps smooth out its swinginess. It's more arbitrary on Convoy. Convoy wants to cost $3-$4 and also be really quick to resolve. If you have any suggestions, I'm open to them.

If you liked OldConvoy without the Trade token ability, well that's great. I don't think I have room for it in Enterprise, but I'll keep it in mind. For me, Convoy's core premise is "play this again", and rest of the card needs to best serve that concept. OldConvoy was crazy fiddly.