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Author Topic: Lets discuss: Barbarian  (Read 3537 times)

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sudhish86

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Lets discuss: Barbarian
« on: March 13, 2022, 05:20:20 am »
+2

I think this is my least favorite card now. It's trashing powers alone make it swingy to all hell. It has a higher probability of giving players curses than swindler, and the locust effect on other cards is more powerful than same-cost-replacement.

This card is cracked, for sure.
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Awaclus

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Re: Lets discuss: Barbarian
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2022, 12:30:40 pm »
0

I don't think the Locust effect is as strong as Swindler. Swindler often turns your useful cards into junk you actively don't want in your deck, Barbarian turns your useful cards into less expensive useful cards. Turning $2 Actions into Curses is super strong though.
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BraydonM

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Re: Lets discuss: Barbarian
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2022, 04:07:23 pm »
0

I don't think the Locust effect is as strong as Swindler. Swindler often turns your useful cards into junk you actively don't want in your deck, Barbarian turns your useful cards into less expensive useful cards. Turning $2 Actions into Curses is super strong though.
An important difference is that Barbarian kills Provinces down to Duchies and then Estates and even curses so if you are able to chain them it can not only eventually destroy the opponents deck but all their VP.
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Awaclus

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Re: Lets discuss: Barbarian
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2022, 05:47:22 pm »
+1

I don't think the Locust effect is as strong as Swindler. Swindler often turns your useful cards into junk you actively don't want in your deck, Barbarian turns your useful cards into less expensive useful cards. Turning $2 Actions into Curses is super strong though.
An important difference is that Barbarian kills Provinces down to Duchies and then Estates and even curses so if you are able to chain them it can not only eventually destroy the opponents deck but all their VP.

Seems very difficult to pull that off, and if you are in a situation where you can, you could probably just win instead of trolling the opponent.
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Re: Lets discuss: Barbarian
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2022, 06:41:46 pm »
+1

I don't think the Locust effect is as strong as Swindler. Swindler often turns your useful cards into junk you actively don't want in your deck, Barbarian turns your useful cards into less expensive useful cards. Turning $2 Actions into Curses is super strong though.
An important difference is that Barbarian kills Provinces down to Duchies and then Estates and even curses so if you are able to chain them it can not only eventually destroy the opponents deck but all their VP.

Seems very difficult to pull that off, and if you are in a situation where you can, you could probably just win instead of trolling the opponent.

I'd be interested  to know what could have lead you to that conclusion?

Knights is a better analog for Barbarian than Swindler as Swindler is often just switching a 3-4 cost action for a less optimal one and usually can't actually break an opponents deck. It also has a large problem caused by trashing provinces with it in which you effectively trash a province from supply like salt the earth. This means if you invest in many Swindlers and your opponent rushes off a few provinces you can actually end the game for them.

In the last game I played I had an opponent who for some reason opted out of getting knights and instead rushed off 3 provinces while I got an engine going with 3 knights played per turn. He ended the game with 3 provinces 2 curses a sentinel a copper and a silver.

The thing about barbarian is it will dismantle your coins, your engine, and your VP so if there is an engine with it and nothing that blocks it like Guardian you're almost certainly going to lose if you ignore it.
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Awaclus

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Re: Lets discuss: Barbarian
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2022, 08:20:21 pm »
+1

I'd be interested  to know what could have lead you to that conclusion?
Well you have to play three Barbarians for every Province or Gold your opponent buys to turn it into a Curse, and probably about three or four for every $5 Action they buy, assuming you never hit Curses (and actually it's worse because you do in fact sometimes hit Curses). Playing three Barbarians is way harder than buying a $5 Action, and if you're so far ahead that you can play three Barbarians reliably while your opponent can't buy $5 Actions reliably, you aren't winning because Barbarian is destroying their deck, you're winning because you got ridiculously ahead and Barbarian is destroying their deck also because you got ridiculously ahead.

Knights is a better analog for Barbarian than Swindler as Swindler is often just switching a 3-4 cost action for a less optimal one and usually can't actually break an opponents deck. It also has a large problem caused by trashing provinces with it in which you effectively trash a province from supply like salt the earth. This means if you invest in many Swindlers and your opponent rushes off a few provinces you can actually end the game for them.

The reason why Swindler can't usually break the opponent's deck is mostly the same as Barbarian's reason: you have to play so many Swindlers to do it that you're never going to play that many Swindlers, although Swindler is a bit more likely to spin its wheels than Barbarian.

Knights, on the other hand, are way faster at trashing the opponent's deck and can therefore sometimes result in a situation where you can play Knights faster than your opponent can buy more cards.
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BraydonM

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Re: Lets discuss: Barbarian
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2022, 09:44:52 pm »
0

I'd be interested  to know what could have lead you to that conclusion?
Well you have to play three Barbarians for every Province or Gold your opponent buys to turn it into a Curse, and probably about three or four for every $5 Action they buy, assuming you never hit Curses (and actually it's worse because you do in fact sometimes hit Curses). Playing three Barbarians is way harder than buying a $5 Action, and if you're so far ahead that you can play three Barbarians reliably while your opponent can't buy $5 Actions reliably, you aren't winning because Barbarian is destroying their deck, you're winning because you got ridiculously ahead and Barbarian is destroying their deck also because you got ridiculously ahead.

Knights is a better analog for Barbarian than Swindler as Swindler is often just switching a 3-4 cost action for a less optimal one and usually can't actually break an opponents deck. It also has a large problem caused by trashing provinces with it in which you effectively trash a province from supply like salt the earth. This means if you invest in many Swindlers and your opponent rushes off a few provinces you can actually end the game for them.

The reason why Swindler can't usually break the opponent's deck is mostly the same as Barbarian's reason: you have to play so many Swindlers to do it that you're never going to play that many Swindlers, although Swindler is a bit more likely to spin its wheels than Barbarian.

Knights, on the other hand, are way faster at trashing the opponent's deck and can therefore sometimes result in a situation where you can play Knights faster than your opponent can buy more cards.

Goons, Inventor, and Bridge Troll are just a few examples of terminal cards you want to play multiple of it a turn in an engine. None of these things are cards that only work because you are already ahead and neither is Barbarian. Playing three of a terminal card is not that hard on a lot of boards and you don't actually need to play 3 to have an effect. Every Barbarian is downgrading the opponents deck. if you're playing 2 barbarians and turning a gold into a copper and not a curse you're still hitting the opponent back, and a single hit on a province is -3 VP.
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Awaclus

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Re: Lets discuss: Barbarian
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2022, 10:02:09 pm »
0

Goons, Inventor, and Bridge Troll are just a few examples of terminal cards you want to play multiple of it a turn in an engine. None of these things are cards that only work because you are already ahead and neither is Barbarian. Playing three of a terminal card is not that hard on a lot of boards and you don't actually need to play 3 to have an effect. Every Barbarian is downgrading the opponents deck. if you're playing 2 barbarians and turning a gold into a copper and not a curse you're still hitting the opponent back, and a single hit on a province is -3 VP.

If you can play three Bridge Trolls every turn, you are not very many turns away from winning the game. Same with Inventor and Goons. If you can play three Barbarians every turn, you are not even making progress towards destroying your opponent's deck and all of their VP, assuming the opponent at least hits $5 every turn.
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BraydonM

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Re: Lets discuss: Barbarian
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2022, 10:17:19 pm »
0

Goons, Inventor, and Bridge Troll are just a few examples of terminal cards you want to play multiple of it a turn in an engine. None of these things are cards that only work because you are already ahead and neither is Barbarian. Playing three of a terminal card is not that hard on a lot of boards and you don't actually need to play 3 to have an effect. Every Barbarian is downgrading the opponents deck. if you're playing 2 barbarians and turning a gold into a copper and not a curse you're still hitting the opponent back, and a single hit on a province is -3 VP.

If you can play three Bridge Trolls every turn, you are not very many turns away from winning the game. Same with Inventor and Goons. If you can play three Barbarians every turn, you are not even making progress towards destroying your opponent's deck and all of their VP, assuming the opponent at least hits $5 every turn.

If your opponent is buying a 5 and you're playing 3 barbarians then they are losing as fast as they're gaining but you are hitting 6 just on those barbarians you can use to build your deck bigger and then if you hit 4 per turn they will be losing cards...
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sudhish86

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Re: Lets discuss: Barbarian
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2022, 10:19:53 pm »
0

I don't think the Locust effect is as strong as Swindler. Swindler often turns your useful cards into junk you actively don't want in your deck, Barbarian turns your useful cards into less expensive useful cards. Turning $2 Actions into Curses is super strong though.

this only applies to 0$,2$, and 5$ cards.

With barbarian, all 2$ and under get turned, not into estates, but curses. This makes little difference early game, but late, when people might normally buy estates, this can swing hard.

And since there are generally more combined 3$, 4$ and 6$ cards than 5$ cards alone, i'd say the negatives of barbarian outweigh swindler, just due to odds of damage hitting more cards.

There are times where maybe you are right, like masterpiece, treasure map, or something like that, but i think barbarian should probably cost 6-7$
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sudhish86

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Re: Lets discuss: Barbarian
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2022, 10:25:53 pm »
0

If you can play three Barbarians every turn, you are not even making progress towards destroying your opponent's deck and all of their VP, assuming the opponent at least hits $5 every turn.

that makes 0 sense. Of course you are making progress towards destroying their deck. The fact you played enough of other cards to have 3 in play means your deck is good, not that there's is. The target in your logic changed mid sentence.
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Awaclus

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Re: Lets discuss: Barbarian
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2022, 10:45:34 pm »
0

If your opponent is buying a 5 and you're playing 3 barbarians then they are losing as fast as they're gaining but you are hitting 6 just on those barbarians you can use to build your deck bigger and then if you hit 4 per turn they will be losing cards...

And at that point, you're trolling the opponent when you could just win.

this only applies to 0$,2$, and 5$ cards.

With barbarian, all 2$ and under get turned, not into estates, but curses. This makes little difference early game, but late, when people might normally buy estates, this can swing hard.

And since there are generally more combined 3$, 4$ and 6$ cards than 5$ cards alone, i'd say the negatives of barbarian outweigh swindler, just due to odds of damage hitting more cards.

There are times where maybe you are right, like masterpiece, treasure map, or something like that, but i think barbarian should probably cost 6-7$

It also applies to $3 Actions when Silver is bad (which is often).

that makes 0 sense. Of course you are making progress towards destroying their deck. The fact you played enough of other cards to have 3 in play means your deck is good, not that there's is. The target in your logic changed mid sentence.

You play three Barbarians to trash a $5 from their deck, they play three Coppers and a Silver and buy another $5 and nullify all the progress you made. It's way easier to play three Coppers and a Silver than it is to play three Barbarians, and if you're so far ahead that you can play three Barbarians more reliably than your opponent can play three Coppers and a Silver, you can just buy Provinces and win.
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pubby

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Re: Lets discuss: Barbarian
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2022, 11:54:56 pm »
+4

I've played many games where it made sense to play 3+ Cardinals, or Saboteurs, or Rogues per turn. I assume Barbarian is no different.

Note that Barbarian can be used to come back from a large province deficit (common if you take too long building your engine). Swindler can't do that.
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Re: Lets discuss: Barbarian
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2022, 10:12:59 am »
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Swindler is an obvious comparison. there are some key differences.

Swindler is especially good early since the chance of hitting Coppers (into Curses) is higher or you might hit a critical card your opponent bought early (say a Witch/Mountebank into Duchy).
Of course it can turn Estates into Estates and that's awful, so it's rather swingy but still good early on.
During the mid/late game if you're turning Silvers into Silvers or Golds into Golds, that's not great, other than the fact your opponent has to wait a shuffle to draw them.
And if you're behind and turning Provinces into Provinces (or, my personal favorite, Peddlers into Provinces) well that's just sad.

Barbarian seems stronger, but note that your opponent gets to choose the replacement, not you. Yes, often it will turn Province -> Duchy -> Estate and Gold -> Silver -> Copper, but if there are special $5 Treasures like Idol, Relic etc. it becomes less hurtful to trash a Gold and likewise for VP cards if there are kingdom VP cards like Nobles, Harem, Island, etc.
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Awaclus

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Re: Lets discuss: Barbarian
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2022, 11:10:43 am »
+1

I've played many games where it made sense to play 3+ Cardinals, or Saboteurs, or Rogues per turn. I assume Barbarian is no different.

I'm not saying it doesn't make sense to do. What it doesn't make is progress towards destroying your opponent's deck and all of their VP.
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BraydonM

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Re: Lets discuss: Barbarian
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2022, 09:20:13 pm »
+1

I've played many games where it made sense to play 3+ Cardinals, or Saboteurs, or Rogues per turn. I assume Barbarian is no different.

I'm not saying it doesn't make sense to do. What it doesn't make is progress towards destroying your opponent's deck and all of their VP.
I played yet another game yesterday where the opponents deck and VP were destroyed with barbarian. They went from 18 vp down to 3 in a few turns.

You don’t have to turn every card into a curse or trash if you downgrade everything once chances are their deck is not going to work well. You don’t have to play 3 barbarians to kill a province like you suggest if you hit it twice it’s an estate and that is not helping the opponent win. Same thing goes for 5 drops if you turn it into a 4 or 3 it doesn’t have to be a curse to be bad and to make an engine break and not work.
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Davio

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Re: Lets discuss: Barbarian
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2022, 05:24:32 am »
0

$5 is sort of a critical limit, a lot of $5+ cards are super powerful and could be essential for engines while a lot of $4- cards are merely engine grease.
Sometimes the whole point of engines is to play those $5+ cards as often as possible.

So hitting a $5 card can be a turning point in any game.
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Awaclus

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Re: Lets discuss: Barbarian
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2022, 06:41:03 am »
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I played yet another game yesterday where the opponents deck and VP were destroyed with barbarian. They went from 18 vp down to 3 in a few turns.

Do you have the game ID? I didn't find it on DomBot.

You don’t have to turn every card into a curse or trash if you downgrade everything once chances are their deck is not going to work well. You don’t have to play 3 barbarians to kill a province like you suggest if you hit it twice it’s an estate and that is not helping the opponent win. Same thing goes for 5 drops if you turn it into a 4 or 3 it doesn’t have to be a curse to be bad and to make an engine break and not work.

If you can only turn a $5 into a $4, your opponent can buy another $5 and then it's like they spent their $5 turn buying a $4, which makes Barbarian a Cutpurse. Cutpurse doesn't destroy the opponent's deck.
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Re: Lets discuss: Barbarian
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2022, 09:09:18 am »
+6

I played a game recently in which my opponent opened barbarian on 5/2. I countered, having 4/3, with an armory to gain as many fortresses as I could get, so his "trashing" would draw me a fortress and gain a $2 action card (the game had plateau shepherds). My plan didn't work at all, and I lost in a landslide.

The moral of the story is that I'm not that good at Dominion.

Perhaps this isn't relevant to the topic.
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Re: Lets discuss: Barbarian
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2022, 03:25:36 pm »
+2

I played a game where I played Barbarian almost ten times, assisted by Specialist.  I gave him a total of 4 curses, not including the times I trashed curses into curses.  The best hit was an Encampment.  The worst hit was a Gold, because he just gained some Spices.

It wasn't so bad.  I had the actions to play Barbarian, so it was at worst a silver.  That said there were stronger things I could have been doing instead, like Specialist+Spices.

People fear the Province hit too much.  What density of Provinces do you have in your deck anyway?  Compare to the 8% chance of hitting Misery.

Like other trashing attacks, I suspect Barbarian hurts most if your deck is super thin.  So if Barbarian proves to be very powerful, I imagine that would at worst push the strategy towards larger decks.
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Imrahil3

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Re: Lets discuss: Barbarian
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2022, 10:09:10 pm »
+6

People fear the Province hit too much.  What density of Provinces do you have in your deck anyway?  Compare to the 8% chance of hitting Misery.

Like other trashing attacks, I suspect Barbarian hurts most if your deck is super thin.  So if Barbarian proves to be very powerful, I imagine that would at worst push the strategy towards larger decks.

This nails it. Spamming Barbarian is gonna hit your opponent like a train if they have a sleek 8-card engine that buys two Provinces a turn. If your opponent is just slogging around with a weird alt-VP strategy, you aren’t going to hurt them much with Barbarian.

Personally, I think this is really good for the game. Engines are great, but sometimes I wonder if we have turned a fun card game into Efficiency Simulator. A decent number of my friends have absolutely terrible strategic approaches to this game, but slamming them with 4 Barbarians a turn is going to do nothing but run out the Curse pile.

I’m totally fine with people banning Barbarian or not liking it, but having a card the rewards big, mediocre decks over small, perfect ones is a healthy challenge to the meta.
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Re: Lets discuss: Barbarian
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2022, 12:57:55 am »
0

I think this is my least favorite card now. It's trashing powers alone make it swingy to all hell. It has a higher probability of giving players curses than swindler, and the locust effect on other cards is more powerful than same-cost-replacement.

This card is cracked, for sure.

100% agree.  This is the new Mountebank.

It is a 3 tool game destroyer.  In the beginning it hands out curses left and right. If you luck into a 5/2 open you often hand out 2 curses by t5 (and often making it 2x as bad when the trash is an estate).  In the middle of the game it throws wrenches in your engine by trashing the cards down.  And then n the end games there is nothing more painful/satisfying that smashing 1 or even 2 provinces in the same turn.

It is way OP.  Just a redic card.
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