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[Jeebus]

Elder gives you an extra option that you have to choose upfront. This means Elder steps in and makes you do something else instead of what the card says. (If the card says "choose one", Elder says you "choose two different" instead.)

It seems to me that Elder works like Lantern.

Lantern replaces the reveal and discard effects as you're resolving the Border Guard. It's been ruled that if you used Way of the Chameleon, Lantern doesn't do anything, because you're not following the Border Guard's instructions anymore.

Elder talks about what choices the card gives you. If you use Way of the Chameleon, you're not given any choices by the card, but by the Chameleon. So Elder can't give you the extra option.

Is that right?

[Donald X.]

Elder gives you an extra option that you have to choose upfront. This means Elder steps in and makes you do something else instead of what the card says. (If the card says "choose one", Elder says you "choose two different" instead.)

It seems to me that Elder works like Lantern.

I'm not sure I see it like that. I see Elder squeezing in after your first choice (yes or 0th choice with Scrap / Copper) and giving you a second choice.

Elder talks about what choices the card gives you. If you use Way of the Chameleon, you're not given any choices by the card, but by the Chameleon. So Elder can't give you the extra option.

Is that right?

You are technically correct here. (I say "technically" because no-one is ever guessing that it works that way in an actual game irl.)

Possibly Elder could have specified its scope differently in order to dodge weirdness.

[GendoIkari]

Related to this, another question that was asked in a previous thread: What is the "it" Elder refers to in "When it gives you a choice..."? It reads like "it" is the action card you chose from your hand. But under that interpretation, if you play a card with Elder and then replay it with Royal Carriage, then you would get the extra choice again when it's played again, because you're still playing that same action card this turn.

[Jeebus]

Related to this, another question that was asked in a previous thread: What is the "it" Elder refers to in "When it gives you a choice..."? It reads like "it" is the action card you chose from your hand. But under that interpretation, if you play a card with Elder and then replay it with Royal Carriage, then you would get the extra choice again when it's played again, because you're still playing that same action card this turn.

I think you wouldn't get it again, because when you replay it Elder is not playing it. Yes, "it" is the Action card, but Elder is referring to playing it per Elder's instruction "you may play an Action card from your hand". It's not referring to other times you happen to play the card during the turn. "This turn" just means that it doesn't give you an extra choice on abilities set up for future turns (like on Amulet). It's limiting.

Remember, this is not shapeshifting; the card doesn't have different instructions. It's just Elder telling you to do something else when you play it from your hand.

[Jeebus]

Elder talks about what choices the card gives you. If you use Way of the Chameleon, you're not given any choices by the card, but by the Chameleon. So Elder can't give you the extra option.

Is that right?

You are technically correct here. (I say "technically" because no-one is ever guessing that it works that way in an actual game irl.)

Possibly Elder could have specified its scope differently in order to dodge weirdness.

Well, I don't see any particular reason why Lantern couldn't be interpreted so that it works on a Chameleoned Border Guard, or Elder on a Chameleoned Pawn. So I guess you could change that ruling?

[AJD]

Elder talks about what choices the card gives you. If you use Way of the Chameleon, you're not given any choices by the card, but by the Chameleon. So Elder can't give you the extra option.

Is that right?

You are technically correct here. (I say "technically" because no-one is ever guessing that it works that way in an actual game irl.)

Possibly Elder could have specified its scope differently in order to dodge weirdness.

Well, I don't see any particular reason why Lantern couldn't be interpreted so that it works on a Chameleoned Border Guard, or Elder on a Chameleoned Pawn. So I guess you could change that ruling?

I think the issue here is exactly what you said in your previous comment, Jeebus: "this is not shapeshifting; the card doesn't have different instructions." Chameleon explicitly says "Follow this card's instructions" [with a modification, of course]; if Elder doesn't change the card's instructions (but rather Elder, like Chameleon, tells you to do something a little bit different from what the instructions say), then Elder doesn't change what Chameleon is telling you to do. I guess.

[Jeebus]

Well, I don't see any particular reason why Lantern couldn't be interpreted so that it works on a Chameleoned Border Guard, or Elder on a Chameleoned Pawn. So I guess you could change that ruling?

I think the issue here is exactly what you said in your previous comment, Jeebus: "this is not shapeshifting; the card doesn't have different instructions." Chameleon explicitly says "Follow this card's instructions" [with a modification, of course]; if Elder doesn't change the card's instructions (but rather Elder, like Chameleon, tells you to do something a little bit different from what the instructions say), then Elder doesn't change what Chameleon is telling you to do. I guess.

I wrote that last night without thinking it through. Yes, Chameleon is the problem, but I think it's the other way around. Chameleon, like all Ways, triggers when you're about the resolve the card; you end up not following the card's instructions. Based on Donald's ruling, Lantern triggers as you're following specific instructions on the card. So Chameleon modifies it first, "replacing" all the instructions, so that Lantern never triggers. Same with Elder. So you would have to change how Chameleon works.

[Donald X.]

Related to this, another question that was asked in a previous thread: What is the "it" Elder refers to in "When it gives you a choice..."? It reads like "it" is the action card you chose from your hand. But under that interpretation, if you play a card with Elder and then replay it with Royal Carriage, then you would get the extra choice again when it's played again, because you're still playing that same action card this turn.

Elder only modifies that one play of the card; it squeezes in its extra choice at the point at which choose-N-ing occurs.

[Donald X.]

Well, I don't see any particular reason why Lantern couldn't be interpreted so that it works on a Chameleoned Border Guard, or Elder on a Chameleoned Pawn. So I guess you could change that ruling?

I think the issue here is exactly what you said in your previous comment, Jeebus: "this is not shapeshifting; the card doesn't have different instructions." Chameleon explicitly says "Follow this card's instructions" [with a modification, of course]; if Elder doesn't change the card's instructions (but rather Elder, like Chameleon, tells you to do something a little bit different from what the instructions say), then Elder doesn't change what Chameleon is telling you to do. I guess.

I wrote that last night without thinking it through. Yes, Chameleon is the problem, but I think it's the other way around. Chameleon, like all Ways, triggers when you're about the resolve the card; you end up not following the card's instructions. Based on Donald's ruling, Lantern triggers as you're following specific instructions on the card. So Chameleon modifies it first, "replacing" all the instructions, so that Lantern never triggers. Same with Elder. So you would have to change how Chameleon works.

Yes "follow its instructions" turned out to be a can of worms.

[GendoIkari]

[This Way has the text of the played card but with “+ X cards” instead of “+ X $” and vice versa].

[Jeebus]

[This Way has the text of the played card but with “+ X cards” instead of “+ X $” and vice versa].

That seems like it would clarify how it currently works (except that it's a bit inaccurate since only +cards and +$ this turn are supposed to be converted).

If you wanted to change how Chameleon works so that Lantern and Elder would still function, you need to change the current ruling on "follow its instructions".

Chameleon effectively says (incorporating the general rule of Ways): "Instead of following the instructions of the played card, follow its instructions with these modifications..."
And according to the current ruling, this counts as following Chameleon's instructions, NOT the card's instructions. So Lantern and Elder don't do anything, since they only trigger as you are following the card's instructions.

So we would instead interpret Chameleon such that it counts as following the card's instructions:
"Instead of following the instructions of the played card, follow its instructions." <-- This means that we ARE following the card's instructions after all.
"When it would give you +Cards this turn, you get +$ instead, and vice versa." <-- This means that Chameleon triggers as you are following the card's instructions, like Lantern/Elder.

However, this would also have other consequences:
* When under Enchantress attack, using Chameleon does not prevent Enchantress (unlike with other Ways).
* When playing Moat, you can choose to lose the -1 Card token, then convert the other +1 Card to +$1. (Currently, you get +$2 from Moat, and keep you -1 Card token.) Similarly with Militia and -$1 token.

[GendoIkari]

Yeah I was trying to give a wording that would completely avoid language involving “follow instructions”; an actual shape-shifting Way instead which changes its actual text every time you play a card. I didn’t intend it to be an actual good possible wording though; although you could make it work well for an online implementation only, if you literally change the text of the Way each time.