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Author Topic: Allies is online  (Read 7489 times)

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vidicate

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #75 on: March 14, 2022, 12:12:03 pm »
+1

I found in the official FAQ that Gamble does in fact discard the action or treasure if you don't play it. This sounds to me like a contradiction to Barbarian.

For whoever is curious, DXV has words about the words: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Gamble#Wording
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #76 on: March 14, 2022, 12:50:58 pm »
0

(Interestingly, I don't think it's clear that "fail to gain a card" would also include Curse, as it could simply mean "fail to gain a cheaper card sharing a type with it". However, the "simply" in the rules makes it clear for me; "simply" meaning "this and nothing else happens").

I agree.

Yes, Gamble had the opposite ruling. You can find the thread about it. As I mentioned it was more ambiguous because of the "may". "You may do x, otherwise do y," sounds okay. But "if x, you may do y, otherwise do z" is at best ambiguous, more strictly should mean that z only happens if not x.

emtzalex

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #77 on: March 14, 2022, 03:05:00 pm »
+1

The difference is that all the rules dealing with reactions are not actually limited to reactions. If a card were printed with all the exact same wordings as Black Cat, but without the reaction type, then you would still be able to play it from your hand when an opponent gains a victory card. This is different than Treasure, because if a card were printed that had all the same words as Horn of Plenty, but without the Treasure type, then you would not be allowed to play it during your buy phase.

In other words, no matter how much the rulebook describes the way in which reactions work, adding reaction as a type to a card doesn’t actually change its functionality. It is no different than adding the Attack type to a card.

These are just rule clarifications that apply to "Reactions that can play themselves". The reason they went for this route is because they didn't want to state this four times, and it would also ease things up when a future expansion has more of these kinds of Reactions.

Rules determine how the game is played, and then there are other things in the rule book that help you understand or remember what the rules are and what they do in various situations, like explanations, clarifications, example situations, etc. The part about Reactions is the latter whereas the part about Treasures is the former.

I see what you are getting at, but I think there isn't as clear a distinction as you suggest. If you go back to the base set rules, nothing specifically says that "if a card instructs you to play an Action card, it does not use an Action," but that is explained in the "Notes" for Throne Room and Vassal. Thus, those "notes" effectively are part of the rules. By Nocturn there is no such clarification for Conclave or Imp. 
 
It may, in theory, be the case that if a Reaction wasn't called a Reaction that it would still work the same, but the fact is that cards that do things at unusual times are Reactions. Whether that's a rule that governs players or a rule that governs how the game is design, it's still, by any reasonable description, a rule.

Also, at least one of the Menagerie rules is in no way suggested by the existing rules of the game:

Quote
If you play a card on someone else's turn, you discard it in that turn's Clean-up, unless it is a Duration card with things left to do.
(Menagerie rule book p. 4).

As far as I'm aware, nothing anywhere in the rules suggests that you would discard cards during another player's clean-up, until this rule.
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Jeebus

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #78 on: March 14, 2022, 04:08:37 pm »
0

Quote
If you play a card on someone else's turn, you discard it in that turn's Clean-up, unless it is a Duration card with things left to do.
(Menagerie rule book p. 4).

As far as I'm aware, nothing anywhere in the rules suggests that you would discard cards during another player's clean-up, until this rule.

The rule is also in the Adventures rulebook, for Duplicate.
The rule was originally introduced online by Donald regarding Outpost v.1.

Jeebus

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #79 on: March 14, 2022, 04:17:44 pm »
+3

This is kind of funny (to me). Back in 2009, people on BGG were discussing what happens when you play two Outposts in your turn. This was Outpost v.1, where you draw 3 cards in Clean-up and set up an extra turn no matter what, but when you come to resolving that extra turn, you don't get it if you already had two turns in a row. To support the argument that both Outposts should stay in play, this guy theorized a Lich (a "skip your next turn" card), saying that playing two Outposts would actually make a difference then. I think he was right! Play Outpost and Lich, you don't get an extra turn (but still draw 3 cards). Play Outpost, Outpost and Lich, you do get an extra turn!

That was for Outpost v.1. Current Outpost is weaker with Lich; it doesn't give you an extra turn even if you play two.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2022, 01:48:13 am by Jeebus »
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #80 on: March 14, 2022, 06:06:12 pm »
0

The difference is that all the rules dealing with reactions are not actually limited to reactions. If a card were printed with all the exact same wordings as Black Cat, but without the reaction type, then you would still be able to play it from your hand when an opponent gains a victory card. This is different than Treasure, because if a card were printed that had all the same words as Horn of Plenty, but without the Treasure type, then you would not be allowed to play it during your buy phase.

In other words, no matter how much the rulebook describes the way in which reactions work, adding reaction as a type to a card doesn’t actually change its functionality. It is no different than adding the Attack type to a card.

These are just rule clarifications that apply to "Reactions that can play themselves". The reason they went for this route is because they didn't want to state this four times, and it would also ease things up when a future expansion has more of these kinds of Reactions.

Rules determine how the game is played, and then there are other things in the rule book that help you understand or remember what the rules are and what they do in various situations, like explanations, clarifications, example situations, etc. The part about Reactions is the latter whereas the part about Treasures is the former.

I see what you are getting at, but I think there isn't as clear a distinction as you suggest. If you go back to the base set rules, nothing specifically says that "if a card instructs you to play an Action card, it does not use an Action," but that is explained in the "Notes" for Throne Room and Vassal. Thus, those "notes" effectively are part of the rules. By Nocturn there is no such clarification for Conclave or Imp. 
 
It may, in theory, be the case that if a Reaction wasn't called a Reaction that it would still work the same, but the fact is that cards that do things at unusual times are Reactions. Whether that's a rule that governs players or a rule that governs how the game is design, it's still, by any reasonable description, a rule.

Also, at least one of the Menagerie rules is in no way suggested by the existing rules of the game:

Quote
If you play a card on someone else's turn, you discard it in that turn's Clean-up, unless it is a Duration card with things left to do.
(Menagerie rule book p. 4).

As far as I'm aware, nothing anywhere in the rules suggests that you would discard cards during another player's clean-up, until this rule.

Yeah, I still believe that the only types with intrinsic rules are Action, Treasure, Night and maybe Duration. All other types either exist to recolor the card, or as a referent. And obviously, types also have an intuitive characterization, and it'd be bad design to violate that characterization without extremely strong justification. (I honestly also dislike that Masquerade isn't an Attack, although I can definitely see why they went for that route). Don't forget, however, that on-gain and on-trash effects are also unusually timed effects that don't warrant the Reaction typing.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #81 on: March 14, 2022, 06:11:28 pm »
0

Yeah, I still believe that the only types with intrinsic rules are Action, Treasure, Night and maybe Duration.

I don't think that's true. For instance, the type Looter has the intrinsic rule "Ruins are in the supply for this game"; Liaison means "everyone starts with a Favor and you have to choose an Ally".
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mxdata

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #82 on: March 14, 2022, 06:41:44 pm »
+1

Yeah, I still believe that the only types with intrinsic rules are Action, Treasure, Night and maybe Duration.

I don't think that's true. For instance, the type Looter has the intrinsic rule "Ruins are in the supply for this game"; Liaison means "everyone starts with a Favor and you have to choose an Ally".

I'm not sure that that's really an intrinsic rule for Looter though. Nothing would be lost if Looter weren't a type. They're just cards that give Ruins, but other cards that give out certain cards don't have a special type. You don't need, for example, a special type for "cards that give Spoils" to know that you need to have Spoils in the kingdom when you have those cards
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #83 on: March 14, 2022, 06:49:14 pm »
+3

Yeah, I still believe that the only types with intrinsic rules are Action, Treasure, Night and maybe Duration.

I don't think that's true. For instance, the type Looter has the intrinsic rule "Ruins are in the supply for this game"; Liaison means "everyone starts with a Favor and you have to choose an Ally".

I'm not sure that that's really an intrinsic rule for Looter though. Nothing would be lost if Looter weren't a type. They're just cards that give Ruins, but other cards that give out certain cards don't have a special type. You don't need, for example, a special type for "cards that give Spoils" to know that you need to have Spoils in the kingdom when you have those cards

The difference is that Ruins are in the supply. Looters couldn't give out Ruins without an intrinsic rule because there would be no ruins. That's not the case for Spoils or Horses; they're theoretically always there but don't matter if nothing gains them.

emtzalex

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #84 on: March 14, 2022, 07:49:36 pm »
0

Quote
If you play a card on someone else's turn, you discard it in that turn's Clean-up, unless it is a Duration card with things left to do.
(Menagerie rule book p. 4).

As far as I'm aware, nothing anywhere in the rules suggests that you would discard cards during another player's clean-up, until this rule.

The rule is also in the Adventures rulebook, for Duplicate.
The rule was originally introduced online by Donald regarding Outpost v.1.

This is kind of funny (to me). Back in 2009, people on BGG were discussing what happens when you play two Outposts in your turn. This was Outpost v.1, where you draw 3 cards in Clean-up and set up an extra turn no matter what, but when you come to resolving that extra turn, you don't get it if you already had two turns in a row. To support the argument that both Outposts should stay in play, this guy theorized a Lich (a "skip your next turn" card), saying that playing two Outposts would actually make a difference then. I think he was right! Play Outpost and Lich, you don't get an extra turn (but still draw 3 cards). Play Outpost, Outpost and Lich, you do get an extra turn!

That was for Outpost v.1. Current Outpost is weaker with Lich; it doesn't give you an extra turn even if you play two. (But at least it doesn't make you draw 3 cards then.)

These are very good points, and I didn't think of Duplicate (and wasn't aware of the ruling on Outpost). But my specific point might have distracted from my broader (and possibly not that well made) point. All of these things--the general rule about playing Action cards during your Action phase and needing to spend an Action to do so; the "Notes" for Vassal and Throne Room saying playing another card with them doesn't use an Action; the Note on Duplicate about when it is discarded; Donald's ruling on the old version of Outpost--all of them are "rules" in the sense that they govern how the game is played. And so is the fact that those rules also apply Reactions that play themselves.

Just because there is rule that says (roughly):

Quote
When Card A says "You may play a card from your hand..." and Card A is used to play Card B, playing Card B doesn't use a Action.

...it doesn't self-evidently follow that...

Quote
When Card C says "When...you may play this from your hand" doing so doesn't use an Action.

It is entirely reasonable to think that a card playing itself at an unusual time is different than one card playing another, and might follow different rules (i.e. might require you to spend an Action, or at least might cost you an Action if you have one). The ruling that they don't, whether in general rules section, in individual card notes, or in a ruling online by Donald are all "rules." And the fact that some of these "rules" apply to Reactions generally make them rules about Reactions.


Yeah, I still believe that the only types with intrinsic rules are Action, Treasure, Night and maybe Duration. All other types either exist to recolor the card, or as a referent. And obviously, types also have an intuitive characterization, and it'd be bad design to violate that characterization without extremely strong justification. (I honestly also dislike that Masquerade isn't an Attack, although I can definitely see why they went for that route). Don't forget, however, that on-gain and on-trash effects are also unusually timed effects that don't warrant the Reaction typing.

Right, and there are rules about on-gain abilities and on-trash abilities. If all the cards with an on-trash ability had a certain type, then the rules about cards with an on-trash ability would be a rule about that type.


I'm not sure that that's really an intrinsic rule for Looter though. Nothing would be lost if Looter weren't a type. They're just cards that give Ruins, but other cards that give out certain cards don't have a special type. You don't need, for example, a special type for "cards that give Spoils" to know that you need to have Spoils in the kingdom when you have those cards

But they are called Looters, so the rule that when there are Looters you add a Ruins pile is a rule about Looters. (Incidentally, there are some important differences between Looters and other cards that give non-Kingdom cards: (a) Ruins are Supply cards; and (b) you don't just automatically put out the whole pile).

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #85 on: March 15, 2022, 05:34:12 am »
0

There are some card types which just exist to remind you to do something during setup.

Shelters replace Estates, Heirlooms replace Coppers.
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #86 on: March 15, 2022, 06:06:02 am »
0

Yeah, I still believe that the only types with intrinsic rules are Action, Treasure, Night and maybe Duration.

I don't think that's true. For instance, the type Looter has the intrinsic rule "Ruins are in the supply for this game"; Liaison means "everyone starts with a Favor and you have to choose an Ally".

You're right. Other types can also have a third functionality, namely a setup change (which means they do something when the game starts). Completely forgot about that lol.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2022, 06:09:10 am by grrgrrgrr »
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Jeebus

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #87 on: March 15, 2022, 07:03:46 am »
+1

Action, Treasure and Night have rules.

Duration has several rules.

Victory has a rule, which is that the victory points on it are counted at the end of the game. The same with Curse.

Attack, Traveller, Command and Gathering have no rules, but are referred to by cards. (The setup rules are for Page and Peasant, not Traveller.)

Reserve has no rules, and no cards refer to it.

Looter has a setup rule. Sure, we could theoretically get rid of it. We would have to say the that Ruins are included if any card that mentions Ruins is in the game. We could get rid of Doom, Fate, Heirloom, Zombie and Clash the same way, since they only have setup rules. But, you know, they do have setup rules, and for good reasons.

Reaction has some rules, for instance the one I mentioned, that a Reaction in your hand can be resolved several times when it triggers. The other rule is the complicated one about getting a new chance to resolve a Reaction if another player did something. Okay, those rules are not technically limited to Reactions, but in practice they are, and they would be even more difficult to phrase without using that tag.

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #88 on: March 15, 2022, 07:20:30 am »
+1

Looter has a setup rule. Sure, we could theoretically get rid of it. We would have to say the that Ruins are included if any card that mentions Ruins is in the game. We could get rid of Doom, Fate, Heirloom, Zombie and Clash the same way, since they only have setup rules. But, you know, they do have setup rules, and for good reasons.
Do Zombies have a setup rule? The setup instruction for Zombies is on Necromancer. Seems like they should go into the "cards refer to them" category.
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Jeebus

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #89 on: March 15, 2022, 07:30:25 am »
0

Looter has a setup rule. Sure, we could theoretically get rid of it. We would have to say the that Ruins are included if any card that mentions Ruins is in the game. We could get rid of Doom, Fate, Heirloom, Zombie and Clash the same way, since they only have setup rules. But, you know, they do have setup rules, and for good reasons.
Do Zombies have a setup rule? The setup instruction for Zombies is on Necromancer. Seems like they should go into the "cards refer to them" category.
I was referring to that instruction. I guess you could look at it either way. But you only need that rule when setting up, not when playing, so it could technically go in the rulebook.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2022, 04:57:59 am by Jeebus »
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #90 on: March 15, 2022, 08:46:20 am »
+2

Looter has a setup rule. Sure, we could theoretically get rid of it. We would have to say the that Ruins are included if any card that mentions Ruins is in the game.
Which would slightly change things, but not in any serious way. (Vagrant mentions Ruins but is not a Looter.)
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mxdata

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #91 on: March 15, 2022, 12:30:44 pm »
0

There are some card types which just exist to remind you to do something during setup.

Shelters replace Estates, Heirlooms replace Coppers.

Shelter is also referred to by Vagrant, so it's not just for setup. Heirloom is a weird one, since nothing refers to Heirlooms as a type, and the "Heirloom:" keyword could just be treated as an abbreviated setup instruction ("Setup: Replace one of your starting Coppers with ______")
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #92 on: March 15, 2022, 06:57:46 pm »
+6

I keep checking this thread thinking people might actually be talking about Allies. Nope. They're just caviling* about card types.
*I just learned this word recently thanks to Wordle.

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #93 on: March 16, 2022, 05:50:24 pm »
+8

Tis always been the f.ds way - come for the strategy(?) , stay for the gratuitous card wording and punctuation débat
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vidicate

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #94 on: April 02, 2022, 07:48:40 pm »
+5

Although in real life, I prefer horses to sycophants, I feel the opposite when it comes to tournament prizes.

We have a time traveler in our midst. For @ehunt spoke of Menagerie and Allies over a decade ago.
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