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dz

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Allies is online
« on: March 09, 2022, 03:39:23 am »
+10

All the Allies cards are up on dominion.games! The rulebook will come out uh soon. Anyways, here are all the new cards:

Kingdom cards

Sycophant
$2; Action-Liaison
+1 Action
Discard 3 cards. If you discarded at least one, +$3.
-------
When you gain or trash this, +2 Favors.

Sentinel
$3; Action
Look at the top 5 cards of your deck. You may trash up to 2 of them. Put the rest back in any order.

Carpenter
$4; Action
If no Supply piles are empty, +1 Action and gain a card costing up to $4. Otherwise, trash a card from your hand and gain a card costing up to $2 more than it.

Innkeeper
$4; Action
+1 Action
Choose one: +1 Card; or +3 Cards, then discard 3 cards; or +5 Cards, then discard 6 cards.

Barbarian
$5; Action-Attack
+$2
Each other player trashes the top card of their deck. If it costs $3 or more they gain a cheaper card sharing a type with it; otherwise they gain a Curse.

Capital City
$5; Action
+1 Card
+2 Actions
You may discard 2 cards for +$2. You may pay $2 for +2 Cards.

Contract
$5; Treasure-Duration-Liaison
+$2
+1 Favor
You may set aside an Action from your hand to play it at the start of your next turn.

Emissary
$5; Action-Liaison
+3 Cards
If this made you shuffle (at least one card), +1 Action and +2 Favors.

Galleria
$5; Action
+$3
This turn, when you gain a card costing $3 or $4; +1 Buy.

Guildmaster
$5; Action-Liaison
+$3
This turn, when you gain a card, +1 Favor.

Specialist
$5; Action
You may play an Action or Treasure from your hand. Choose one: play it again; or gain a copy of it.

Marquis
$6; Action
+1 Buy
+1 Card per card in your hand. Discard down to 10 cards in hand.

Split piles

Clashes

Battle Plan
$3; Action-Clash
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may reveal an Attack card from your hand for +1 Card. You may rotate any Supply pile.

Archer
$4; Action-Attack-Clash
+$2
Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand reveals all but one, and discards one of those you choose.

Warlord
$5; Action-Duration-Attack-Clash
+1 Action
At the start of your next turn, +2 Cards. Until then, other players can't play an Action from their hand that they have 2 or more copies of in play.

Territory
$6; Victory-Clash
Worth 1VP per differently named Victory card you have.
-------
When you gain this, gain a Gold per empty Supply pile.

Forts

Tent
$3; Action-Fort
+$2
You may rotate the Forts.
-------
When you discard this from play, you may put it onto your deck.

Garrison
$4; Action-Duration-Fort
This turn, when you gain a card, add a token here. At the start of your next turn, remove them for +1 Card each.

Hill Fort
$5; Action-Fort
Gain a card costing up to $4. Choose one: put it into your hand; or +1 Card and +1 Action.

Stronghold
$6; Action-Duration-Victory-Fort
Choose one: +$3; or at the start of your next turn, +3 Cards.
-------
2VP

Allies

Circle of Witches
Ally
After you play a Liaison, you may spend 3 Favors to have each other player gain a Curse.

Desert Guides
Ally
At the start of your turn, you may spend a Favor to discard your hand and draw 5 cards. Repeat as desired.

Fellowship of Scribes
Ally
After playing an Action, if you have 4 or fewer cards in hand, you may spend a Favor for +1 Card.

Forest Dwellers
Ally
At the start of your turn, you may spend a Favor to look at the top 3 cards of your deck, discard any number and put the rest back in any order.

League of Shopkeepers
Ally
After you play a Liaison, if you have 5 or more Favors, +$1, and if you have 10 or more, +1 Action and +1 Buy.

Market Towns
Ally
At the start of your Buy phase, you may spend a Favor to play an Action card from your hand. Repeat as desired.

Mountain Folk
Ally
At the start of your turn, you may spend 5 Favors for +3 Cards.

Order of Astrologers
Ally
When shuffling, you may pick one card per Favor you spend to go on top.

Trappers' Lodge
Ally
When you gain a card, you may spend a Favor to put it onto your deck.

Woodworkers' Guild
At the start of your Buy phase, you may spend a Favor to trash an Action card from your hand. If you did, gain an Action card.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2022, 03:40:26 am by dz »
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emtzalex

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2022, 04:24:00 am »
+7

Battle Plan
$3; Action-Clash
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may reveal an Attack card from your hand for +1 Card. You may rotate any Supply pile.

This means any Supply pile (where all the cards aren't the same) (at least at dominion.games). Split piles from Empires. Castles. Knights. Any Supply pile.
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AJD

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2022, 04:38:33 am »
0

Rotating the Castles sounds like fun. And I can imagine someone rotating the Ruins, searching desperately for a +Buy.

Is Clash now the first card type that nothing actually refers to or depends on?
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2022, 04:45:18 am »
0

Rotating the Castles sounds like fun. And I can imagine someone rotating the Ruins, searching desperately for a +Buy.

Is Clash now the first card type that nothing actually refers to or depends on?
Possibly Curse? When things refer to Curses is it clear whether they are referring to the card name or the card type?
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pst

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2022, 05:47:29 am »
+1

Rotating the Castles sounds like fun. And I can imagine someone rotating the Ruins, searching desperately for a +Buy.

First I thought it would be hard to rotate the Ruins since the cards are secret. But of course, you put one card at a time on the bottom when rotating, as long as they are the same. More use of remembering the order afterwards!

That way you might end up trying to rotate a pile where all the remaining cards are the same, even though you didn't know. At least you get to know that all of the remaning Ruins were Ruined Village then!
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Jeebus

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2022, 05:54:39 am »
+1

Battle Plan
$3; Action-Clash
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may reveal an Attack card from your hand for +1 Card. You may rotate any Supply pile.

This means any Supply pile (where all the cards aren't the same) (at least at dominion.games). Split piles from Empires. Castles. Knights. Any Supply pile.

That was my number one question from these new cards.

Is Clash now the first card type that nothing actually refers to or depends on?

Yes, if you count setup rules for cards like Looters, Dooms and Fates, but don't count setup rules for how to organize split piles.

Jeebus

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2022, 06:01:16 am »
0

I wouldn't have thought that Ruins or Knights were included.
It's a bit weird that you can rotate Ruins. The rule for shuffled piles is that you can only ever gain, buy or choose the top card. So then either "rotate" comes with a special rule for shuffled piles, or it means: "put the top card of the pile at the bottom. If the new top card is identical, put it at the bottom too, etc."

mxdata

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2022, 08:58:17 am »
+2

Battle Plan
$3; Action-Clash
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may reveal an Attack card from your hand for +1 Card. You may rotate any Supply pile.

This means any Supply pile (where all the cards aren't the same) (at least at dominion.games). Split piles from Empires. Castles. Knights. Any Supply pile.

That makes sense. Nothing in the definition of "rotate" restricts it to the Allies rotating piles

And it is a bit odd that "Clash" is a type here, given that nothing actually refers to it. But I guess it's for the sake of consistency, since the other rotating piles have a specific type
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2022, 08:59:47 am »
+9

I love that Emissary just stops the "can you shuffle one card" argument in its tracks.

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2022, 09:03:20 am »
+1

I love that Emissary just stops the "can you shuffle one card" argument in its tracks.

I saw that! I assume Donald put it in because of the discussion. Of course, the clause is needed because the answer isn't clear.

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2022, 09:18:23 am »
+3

Barbarian
$5; Action-Attack
+$2
Each other player trashes the top card of their deck. If it costs $3 or more they gain a cheaper card sharing a type with it; otherwise they gain a Curse.

Question: Suppose Barbarian hits, say, a Village, but there are no Action cards costing less than $3. Do you get a Curse? I think no, because the "otherwise" would refer back to the "if it costs $3 or more". But it could also mean "if you did not gain a cheaper card"
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2022, 09:58:11 am »
0

The rotating split piles online (and I assume, in the rules) let you see exactly how many of each card there is in the pile. Now, that has never been the case (by design!) with something like Ruins. But now you can rotate ruins? Someone make this make sense.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2022, 10:10:55 am »
0

Barbarian is swindler 2.0 :(
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AJD

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2022, 10:14:36 am »
+5

Barbarian is swindler 2.0 :(

 Barbarian is a large locust, free from the swarm and out for a good time.
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spineflu

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2022, 10:30:44 am »
0

Barbarian
$5; Action-Attack
+$2
Each other player trashes the top card of their deck. If it costs $3 or more they gain a cheaper card sharing a type with it; otherwise they gain a Curse.

Question: Suppose Barbarian hits, say, a Village, but there are no Action cards costing less than $3. Do you get a Curse? I think no, because the "otherwise" would refer back to the "if it costs $3 or more". But it could also mean "if you did not gain a cheaper card"
i also think "no", you just do as much as you can so the gaining fails
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GendoIkari

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2022, 10:48:04 am »
+1

All new cards added to auto-link. For Chrome you'll need to clear your local cache to see it. And the Wiki pages/images aren't there yet so it just links to nothing, but I'm sure someone will have them added pretty quickly.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2022, 10:54:18 am »
+1

And it is a bit odd that "Clash" is a type here, given that nothing actually refers to it. But I guess it's for the sake of consistency, since the other rotating piles have a specific type
I'm sure there's a setup rule referring to it, as I was saying above.

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2022, 11:07:45 am »
0

pretty sure i can guess the answer to this, but the Pay keyword on Capital City: You have to have the coin to use it? It's not like the '–$1 for each treasure card revealed' on Poor House, where you can really embrace that $0 floor, get stuff for free?

I think the only other instance of Pay is on Storyteller, which just spends all your money regardless.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2022, 11:08:00 am »
+3

Territory + Castles should be pretty insane.
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dpm

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2022, 11:20:07 am »
+4

Barbarian is extra good against Overlords and City Quarters. 
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2022, 11:22:58 am »
0

For some reason I really like the "Repeat as desired" wording on Desert Guides. Trying to imagine when else that phrase could possibly be used.
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emtzalex

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2022, 11:27:52 am »
0

Territory + Castles should be pretty insane.

It is. I played it (to see if I could rotate the Castles pile) and won despite my opponent getting all 8 Provinces (with the Duchy from Sprawling they were worth 11 VP each)
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2022, 11:32:05 am »
+1

why wasn't Research worded like Garrison? like i feel like half the problem with it is it ties up your cards with being set aside.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2022, 11:48:08 am »
0

I've been trying to play it on dominion.games and it is not allowing me to play certain matches because I don't own certain cards.  I don't have the subscription currently, but I used to be able to play new cards with people who did.  Was that changed?
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2022, 12:05:14 pm »
+3

The rotating split piles online (and I assume, in the rules) let you see exactly how many of each card there is in the pile. Now, that has never been the case (by design!) with something like Ruins. But now you can rotate ruins? Someone make this make sense.

For Ruins, you take the top card, and reveal the one below. If it's a different card, that means you put just the top card at the bottom, end of rotating. If it is the same card, you put it to the top card, and reveal the one below. If that is a different card, you put the 2 top cards at the bottom, end of rotating. This goes on for as long as the "just uncovered top card" is the same as the previously uncovered cards, until you finally hit a different one, or find that all of your Ruins pile was just one card.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2022, 12:15:15 pm »
+1

Capital City has a Mill option, a Storyteller option, or—sneakily—a Cellar option.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2022, 01:08:02 pm »
+1

Carpenter sounds really nice. Using an empty supply pile as a proxy test for how far along the game is and whether your needs from an action card have changed.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2022, 02:17:11 pm »
0

Sycophant seems like in most kingdoms it would mostly be useful for the on-gain and on-trash effects. Having to discard 3 cards, without even any draw, seems a steep price for +$3
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2022, 02:46:02 pm »
0

The rotating split piles online (and I assume, in the rules) let you see exactly how many of each card there is in the pile. Now, that has never been the case (by design!) with something like Ruins. But now you can rotate ruins? Someone make this make sense.

For Ruins, you take the top card, and reveal the one below. If it's a different card, that means you put just the top card at the bottom, end of rotating. If it is the same card, you put it to the top card, and reveal the one below. If that is a different card, you put the 2 top cards at the bottom, end of rotating. This goes on for as long as the "just uncovered top card" is the same as the previously uncovered cards, until you finally hit a different one, or find that all of your Ruins pile was just one card.

Are you offering a theory, basing it on the rulebook, or something else?

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2022, 02:47:43 pm »
+4

pretty sure i can guess the answer to this, but the Pay keyword on Capital City: You have to have the coin to use it? It's not like the '–$1 for each treasure card revealed' on Poor House, where you can really embrace that $0 floor, get stuff for free?

I think the only other instance of Pay is on Storyteller, which just spends all your money regardless.

Also Pageant. It means what it says, you pay.

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2022, 05:01:35 pm »
+1

Specialist looks very good. I like how it avoids the Way of the Rat problem of having to decide whether to get the card's benefit or gain a copy of it.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2022, 05:08:23 pm »
+3

Barbarian
$5; Action-Attack
+$2
Each other player trashes the top card of their deck. If it costs $3 or more they gain a cheaper card sharing a type with it; otherwise they gain a Curse.

This sounded familiar, had to track down the outtakes page--not too far from its early form! https://dominionstrategy.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/small-dark-ages-1.png (second row from the bottom, third column from the left)
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2022, 05:09:12 pm »
+1

Specialist looks very good. I like how it avoids the Way of the Rat problem of having to decide whether to get the card's benefit or gain a copy of it.

Specialist is also going to be one of the few cards that really synergies with Elder.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2022, 05:34:18 pm »
+2

Sycophant seems like in most kingdoms it would mostly be useful for the on-gain and on-trash effects. Having to discard 3 cards, without even any draw, seems a steep price for +$3

Indeed. Priced cheap to compensate. Nice synergy with discard strats and/or draw-to-X.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2022, 05:59:43 pm »
+3

Specialist looks very good. I like how it avoids the Way of the Rat problem of having to decide whether to get the card's benefit or gain a copy of it.

Specialist is also going to be one of the few cards that really synergies with Elder.

It takes an Elder to turn a Specialist into a Disciple? Thematically it seems like that should work the other way around, oh well.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2022, 06:03:49 pm »
+1

The rotating split piles online (and I assume, in the rules) let you see exactly how many of each card there is in the pile. Now, that has never been the case (by design!) with something like Ruins. But now you can rotate ruins? Someone make this make sense.

For Ruins, you take the top card, and reveal the one below. If it's a different card, that means you put just the top card at the bottom, end of rotating. If it is the same card, you put it to the top card, and reveal the one below. If that is a different card, you put the 2 top cards at the bottom, end of rotating. This goes on for as long as the "just uncovered top card" is the same as the previously uncovered cards, until you finally hit a different one, or find that all of your Ruins pile was just one card.

Are you offering a theory, basing it on the rulebook, or something else?

It seems clear from DXV’s explanation of Rotate from Preview #2.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2022, 06:16:24 pm »
+2

Sycophant seems like in most kingdoms it would mostly be useful for the on-gain and on-trash effects. Having to discard 3 cards, without even any draw, seems a steep price for +$3

Indeed. Priced cheap to compensate. Nice synergy with discard strats and/or draw-to-X.
Sycophant + Plateau Shepards is crazy. They're just instantly worth 2 points, and your Estates are worth 3.

If the other person does something normal like buy Witches and curse you, you just win with those two piles.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2022, 03:34:52 am »
+1

The rotating split piles online (and I assume, in the rules) let you see exactly how many of each card there is in the pile. Now, that has never been the case (by design!) with something like Ruins. But now you can rotate ruins? Someone make this make sense.

For Ruins, you take the top card, and reveal the one below. If it's a different card, that means you put just the top card at the bottom, end of rotating. If it is the same card, you put it to the top card, and reveal the one below. If that is a different card, you put the 2 top cards at the bottom, end of rotating. This goes on for as long as the "just uncovered top card" is the same as the previously uncovered cards, until you finally hit a different one, or find that all of your Ruins pile was just one card.

Are you offering a theory, basing it on the rulebook, or something else?

It seems clear from DXV’s explanation of Rotate from Preview #2.

DXV wrote: "This puts all copies of whatever's on top onto the bottom."

I don't see it. From that explanation it could just as well be how I described it, or that you grab them all at once and therefore you can't rotate Ruins (you can rotate split piles because the cards there are open information).
« Last Edit: March 10, 2022, 03:36:19 am by Jeebus »
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2022, 04:50:00 am »
0

I love you, Jeebus/PunchBall; you’re an over-thinker. Perfect for maintaining the FAQs and stuff like you do. But then sometimes caught in the trees, and not quite seeing the forest, am I right?
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2022, 04:56:50 am »
+6

I love you, Jeebus/PunchBall; you’re an over-thinker. Perfect for maintaining the FAQs and stuff like you do. But then sometimes caught in the trees, and not quite seeing the forest, am I right?

Actually, when I'm wrong (which is quite often) it's mostly because I didn't think it through. But this is a peculiarity of Dominion. Go back to the Throne Room + Mining Village thread on BGG where Donald introduced "lose track", and the Ironworks + Trader thread where the question was what "it" means. I am what Donald has wrought!

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2022, 05:05:07 am »
+2

I love you, Jeebus/PunchBall; you’re an over-thinker. Perfect for maintaining the FAQs and stuff like you do. But then sometimes caught in the trees, and not quite seeing the forest, am I right?

Actually, when I'm wrong (which is quite often) it's mostly because I didn't think it through. But this is a peculiarity of Dominion. Go back to the Throne Room + Mining Village thread on BGG where Donald introduced "lose track", and the Ironworks + Trader thread where the question was what "it" means. I am what Donald has wrought!

Hahaha! I relish every word of this reply. Please don’t ask me to go down those rabbit holes again lmao! The “blueness” of the dog you walked ;D
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2022, 07:51:00 am »
+1

So... Counterfeit + Contract, the Contract will disappear, but you will set aside two cards, so I guess that solves the tracking problem mentioned in the secret histories:
Quote
I tried a Treasure - Duration. To not be wonky with cards like Counterfeit, it had to have an "if this is in play" clause on the next turn's +$2. That looks weird though. So then it had the penalty of leaving play if someone bought a Province, which gave the "if this is in play" part meaning. Then it got a bonus instead, you could discard it from play to Moat one Attack. And well. It was a dud, it showed up at the bottom of people's lists of cards sorted by how much they liked them. I did better Treasures.

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2022, 10:22:52 am »
0

The rotating split piles online (and I assume, in the rules) let you see exactly how many of each card there is in the pile. Now, that has never been the case (by design!) with something like Ruins. But now you can rotate ruins? Someone make this make sense.

For Ruins, you take the top card, and reveal the one below. If it's a different card, that means you put just the top card at the bottom, end of rotating. If it is the same card, you put it to the top card, and reveal the one below. If that is a different card, you put the 2 top cards at the bottom, end of rotating. This goes on for as long as the "just uncovered top card" is the same as the previously uncovered cards, until you finally hit a different one, or find that all of your Ruins pile was just one card.

Are you offering a theory, basing it on the rulebook, or something else?

It seems clear from DXV’s explanation of Rotate from Preview #2.

DXV wrote: "This puts all copies of whatever's on top onto the bottom."

I don't see it. From that explanation it could just as well be how I described it, or that you grab them all at once and therefore you can't rotate Ruins (you can rotate split piles because the cards there are open information).

I agree with this, especially since cards that allow you to trash or play a card from your discard pile have to also give you specific permission to look through your discard pile first. You normally can't look through your discard pile, so a simple "play a card from your discard pile" instruction wouldn't work. In the same way, a simple "rotate a supply pile" wouldn't necessarily work to allow you to see more than just the top Ruins card. It certainly could work that way, but it's not obvious just from the definition of rotate given in the original preview.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2022, 10:24:44 am »
+3

Have people talked yet about how Battle Plan combos with things like Fortune?
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2022, 10:53:49 am »
+3

Fortunately the Allies rule book is out now, and the Battle Plan FAQ explicitly says it works on Ruins. (And "rotate" is defined as "taking the top card, and all copies of it directly under it, and putting them on the bottom.")
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2022, 12:09:01 pm »
0

The rotating split piles online (and I assume, in the rules) let you see exactly how many of each card there is in the pile. Now, that has never been the case (by design!) with something like Ruins. But now you can rotate ruins? Someone make this make sense.

For Ruins, you take the top card, and reveal the one below. If it's a different card, that means you put just the top card at the bottom, end of rotating. If it is the same card, you put it to the top card, and reveal the one below. If that is a different card, you put the 2 top cards at the bottom, end of rotating. This goes on for as long as the "just uncovered top card" is the same as the previously uncovered cards, until you finally hit a different one, or find that all of your Ruins pile was just one card.

Are you offering a theory, basing it on the rulebook, or something else?

As usual, my understanding of how something works.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2022, 12:17:38 pm »
+1

I’m foreseeing a lot of rage quits with Barbarian; it could be quite brutal with Rabble.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2022, 12:30:44 pm »
+2

I’m foreseeing a lot of rage quits with Barbarian; it could be quite brutal with Rabble.

had a barbarian/hunter/KC game and hit $7 + a lucky draw first. game ended with something like 60 cards in the trash. frankly we need larger banlists, and maybe combinatoric banlists on shuffleit.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2022, 12:34:43 pm »
0

I’m foreseeing a lot of rage quits with Barbarian; it could be quite brutal with Rabble.

had a barbarian/hunter/KC game and hit $7 + a lucky draw first. game ended with something like 60 cards in the trash. frankly we need larger banlists, and maybe combinatoric banlists on shuffleit.

Yeah, I think banlists for specific combinations would be a good idea.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2022, 08:28:18 pm »
+2

Rotating the Castles sounds like fun. And I can imagine someone rotating the Ruins, searching desperately for a +Buy.

Is Clash now the first card type that nothing actually refers to or depends on?

Gathering? Reaction?
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #50 on: March 10, 2022, 08:33:36 pm »
+2

Rotating the Castles sounds like fun. And I can imagine someone rotating the Ruins, searching desperately for a +Buy.

Is Clash now the first card type that nothing actually refers to or depends on?

Gathering? Reaction?
Gathering is referred to by the Landmark, Defiled Shrine.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2022, 12:59:35 am »
+2

Rotating the Castles sounds like fun. And I can imagine someone rotating the Ruins, searching desperately for a +Buy.

Is Clash now the first card type that nothing actually refers to or depends on?

Gathering? Reaction?

Gathering is referred to by the Landmark, Defiled Shrine.

I think he's right about Reactions though!
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2022, 01:31:36 am »
+1

All new cards added to auto-link. For Chrome you'll need to clear your local cache to see it. And the Wiki pages/images aren't there yet so it just links to nothing, but I'm sure someone will have them added pretty quickly.

All rollover images working!
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #53 on: March 11, 2022, 01:35:03 am »
+2

Rotating the Castles sounds like fun. And I can imagine someone rotating the Ruins, searching desperately for a +Buy.

Is Clash now the first card type that nothing actually refers to or depends on?

Gathering? Reaction?

Gathering is referred to by the Landmark, Defiled Shrine.

I think he's right about Reactions though!

Reactions have different rules about when/how they are played. No cards directly refer to "Reserve" or "Night" cards either, but they are also subject to their own rules about when/how they are played/used.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2022, 02:04:46 am »
0

Rotating the Castles sounds like fun. And I can imagine someone rotating the Ruins, searching desperately for a +Buy.

Is Clash now the first card type that nothing actually refers to or depends on?

Gathering? Reaction?

Gathering is referred to by the Landmark, Defiled Shrine.

I think he's right about Reactions though!

Reactions have different rules about when/how they are played. No cards directly refer to "Reserve" or "Night" cards either, but they are also subject to their own rules about when/how they are played/used.

I don't think there are any rules for Reactions in general, are there? I mean, the Adventures rule book describes how Reserve cards work ("Reserve cards are tan, and have an ability that puts them on the Tavern mat") and the Nocturne rule book describes how Night cards work ("In your Night phase, you can play any number of Night cards"), but is there any Dominion rule book that describes rules for Reactions, as a type?
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #55 on: March 11, 2022, 02:09:32 am »
+1

is there any Dominion rule book that describes rules for Reactions, as a type?

Okay, yes, there is: Adventures again, it says "Players may use multiple Reaction cards in response to a single event. Reactions are resolved one at a time. The second Reaction card can be one that was not initially in hand when the first Reaction card was used." So there are general rules for Reaction cards.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #56 on: March 11, 2022, 04:19:54 am »
+1

Rotating the Castles sounds like fun. And I can imagine someone rotating the Ruins, searching desperately for a +Buy.

Is Clash now the first card type that nothing actually refers to or depends on?

Gathering? Reaction?

Gathering exists specifically so that a card can refer to it.

Reaction is more interesting. Of course, the rulebooks refer to them, so it's not that nothing refers to them. But by a technical reading of the rules, the type is not needed. However, there are some other rules, like "Reactions from your hand can be resolved repeatedly", that refer to it. These rules could be phrased without referring to the type, but they would get more complicated. And then you could maybe say the same thing about some other types that exist just to be referred to: you could rephrase them, make them more complicated, without using the type.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2022, 10:28:55 am by Jeebus »
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #57 on: March 11, 2022, 04:38:40 am »
0

is there any Dominion rule book that describes rules for Reactions, as a type?

Okay, yes, there is: Adventures again, it says "Players may use multiple Reaction cards in response to a single event. Reactions are resolved one at a time. The second Reaction card can be one that was not initially in hand when the first Reaction card was used." So there are general rules for Reaction cards.
This was for instance for Secret Chamber which when revealed let you draw 2 cards and topdeck 2 cards. So you could reveal and resolve Secret Chamber, draw a Moat and then reveal a Moat.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #58 on: March 11, 2022, 05:15:44 am »
0

is there any Dominion rule book that describes rules for Reactions, as a type?

Okay, yes, there is: Adventures again, it says "Players may use multiple Reaction cards in response to a single event. Reactions are resolved one at a time. The second Reaction card can be one that was not initially in hand when the first Reaction card was used." So there are general rules for Reaction cards.

That doesn't add the rule to the game though, the rule exists independently of Reactions and works the same way for all triggers. It's more of an explanation of how things work than a rule.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #59 on: March 11, 2022, 06:57:05 am »
+3

is there any Dominion rule book that describes rules for Reactions, as a type?

Okay, yes, there is: Adventures again, it says "Players may use multiple Reaction cards in response to a single event. Reactions are resolved one at a time. The second Reaction card can be one that was not initially in hand when the first Reaction card was used." So there are general rules for Reaction cards.

That doesn't add the rule to the game though, the rule exists independently of Reactions and works the same way for all triggers. It's more of an explanation of how things work than a rule.

You could say the same about Reserve cards. They don't have any rules. The keyword "call" is defined independently.

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #60 on: March 11, 2022, 09:31:28 am »
0

is there any Dominion rule book that describes rules for Reactions, as a type?

Okay, yes, there is: Adventures again, it says "Players may use multiple Reaction cards in response to a single event. Reactions are resolved one at a time. The second Reaction card can be one that was not initially in hand when the first Reaction card was used." So there are general rules for Reaction cards.

That doesn't add the rule to the game though, the rule exists independently of Reactions and works the same way for all triggers. It's more of an explanation of how things work than a rule.

You could say the same about Reserve cards. They don't have any rules. The keyword "call" is defined independently.

Reserve absolutely has no rules meaning; it's neither true that all reserve cards have anything to do with Call (Distant Lands) or that Reserve cards are the only thing that can go on the Tavern mat (Miser).

I've complained in the past about "Reserve" existing at all as a type, because it has no defined meaning and nothing references it. You can say "Reserve cards are cards that get moved to your Tavern Mat when you play them" but that's no different than taking any other ability like "+ cards" or "trash a card from your hand" and giving a specific type to every card that has that ability.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2022, 09:34:20 am by GendoIkari »
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #61 on: March 11, 2022, 10:39:20 am »
0

Technically you only have a Tavern mat at all if there's a Reserve card in the game, but that's not much of a reason.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #62 on: March 11, 2022, 10:44:51 am »
+3

Technically you only have a Tavern mat at all if there's a Reserve card in the game, but that's not much of a reason.
That's not true. Miser uses the mat without being a Reserve.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #63 on: March 11, 2022, 10:57:34 am »
+2

Well, the rules only tell you to use Tavern mats if any Reserve cards are being used, so that's a problem with Miser.

edit: Maybe that changed in later printings of the rulebook? RGG still only has the 2015 version online.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2022, 10:59:40 am by Squidd »
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #64 on: March 11, 2022, 05:11:46 pm »
+2

Reactions have different rules about when/how they are played. No cards directly refer to "Reserve" or "Night" cards either, but they are also subject to their own rules about when/how they are played/used.

I don't think there are any rules for Reactions in general, are there? I mean, the Adventures rule book describes how Reserve cards work ("Reserve cards are tan, and have an ability that puts them on the Tavern mat") and the Nocturne rule book describes how Night cards work ("In your Night phase, you can play any number of Night cards"), but is there any Dominion rule book that describes rules for Reactions, as a type?

The rule book for the base set describes rules for Reactions:
Quote
Reaction: These are cards that can be used in some way at an unusual time. Any such use is spelled out on the Reaction card; for example Moat says it can be revealed when another player plays an Attack card. Reactions are used one at a time (which matters for expansion Reactions).
(p. 6).

The Menagerie rule book has an entire section on Reactions:

Quote
Menagerie has five Reaction cards. Four of them can be played at an unusual time: Black Cat, Falconer, Sheepdog, and Village Green.
  • Playing one of these Reactions using its ability (the text below the dividing line) puts it into play, like playing it normally, but does not use up an Action.
  • If you play a card on someone else's turn, you discard it in that turn's Clean-up, unless it is a Duration card with things left to do.
  • If playing one of these Reactions draws you another Reaction that can be used at the same time, you can use it, and so on. For example, you might have one Black Cat in hand when an opponent gains a Province, play it, draw another, play it, draw another, play it.
  • When playing one of these Reactions, you can choose to use a Way if there is one.
  • If multiple players want to do things at the same time - such as play Reactions - the player first in turn order (starting from the player whose turn it is) goes first. This may change who wants to do what; after each thing, start again from the first player and see who has things to do.
  • Sometimes a condition occurs that allows a Reaction to be played, and that Reaction creates a second condition that allows Reactions to be played. Resolve all Reactions for the new condition and then go back to resolving ones for the first one. For example one player gains a Province, and another plays Black Cat. Gaining a Curse from Black Cat allows players to play Sheepdogs; after resolving those you would go back to see if players had more Black Cats to play.
(p. 4).



That doesn't add the rule to the game though, the rule exists independently of Reactions and works the same way for all triggers. It's more of an explanation of how things work than a rule.

What is the difference between "an explanation of how things work" in a rule book and a rule? That Treasure cards can be played during your Buy phase (but not after you have bought something) is "an explanation of how things work" but it is also a rule about Treasures.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #65 on: March 12, 2022, 01:55:54 am »
+3


What is the difference between "an explanation of how things work" in a rule book and a rule? That Treasure cards can be played during your Buy phase (but not after you have bought something) is "an explanation of how things work" but it is also a rule about Treasures.

The difference is that all the rules dealing with reactions are not actually limited to reactions. If a card were printed with all the exact same wordings as Black Cat, but without the reaction type, then you would still be able to play it from your hand when an opponent gains a victory card. This is different than Treasure, because if a card were printed that had all the same words as Horn of Plenty, but without the Treasure type, then you would not be allowed to play it during your buy phase.

In other words, no matter how much the rulebook describes the way in which reactions work, adding reaction as a type to a card doesn’t actually change its functionality. It is no different than adding the Attack type to a card.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #66 on: March 12, 2022, 04:20:25 am »
+1

We must not forget that Reactions and Reserves are typings that cause the card to have a different color. And that is really the reason these types exist. Reactions in particular have a passive effect that occurs/can occur at an unusual timing, and this effect exists every time you draw the card. If these card had a normal color, it would be way too easy to forget those Reactions.

(and with Reserves, it's also future-proofing. I mean, they could introduce a card that lets you immediately move a Reserve to its mat upon gaining.)

Reactions have different rules about when/how they are played. No cards directly refer to "Reserve" or "Night" cards either, but they are also subject to their own rules about when/how they are played/used.

I don't think there are any rules for Reactions in general, are there? I mean, the Adventures rule book describes how Reserve cards work ("Reserve cards are tan, and have an ability that puts them on the Tavern mat") and the Nocturne rule book describes how Night cards work ("In your Night phase, you can play any number of Night cards"), but is there any Dominion rule book that describes rules for Reactions, as a type?

The rule book for the base set describes rules for Reactions:
Quote
Reaction: These are cards that can be used in some way at an unusual time. Any such use is spelled out on the Reaction card; for example Moat says it can be revealed when another player plays an Attack card. Reactions are used one at a time (which matters for expansion Reactions).
(p. 6).
All types have a description. And the last part holds true for triggers in general. But this is such a prevalent thing among non-Moat Reactions, it doesn't hurt to restate it here.

Quote
The Menagerie rule book has an entire section on Reactions:

Quote
Menagerie has five Reaction cards. Four of them can be played at an unusual time: Black Cat, Falconer, Sheepdog, and Village Green.
  • Playing one of these Reactions using its ability (the text below the dividing line) puts it into play, like playing it normally, but does not use up an Action.
  • If you play a card on someone else's turn, you discard it in that turn's Clean-up, unless it is a Duration card with things left to do.
  • If playing one of these Reactions draws you another Reaction that can be used at the same time, you can use it, and so on. For example, you might have one Black Cat in hand when an opponent gains a Province, play it, draw another, play it, draw another, play it.
  • When playing one of these Reactions, you can choose to use a Way if there is one.
  • If multiple players want to do things at the same time - such as play Reactions - the player first in turn order (starting from the player whose turn it is) goes first. This may change who wants to do what; after each thing, start again from the first player and see who has things to do.
  • Sometimes a condition occurs that allows a Reaction to be played, and that Reaction creates a second condition that allows Reactions to be played. Resolve all Reactions for the new condition and then go back to resolving ones for the first one. For example one player gains a Province, and another plays Black Cat. Gaining a Curse from Black Cat allows players to play Sheepdogs; after resolving those you would go back to see if players had more Black Cats to play.
(p. 4).

These are just rule clarifications that apply to "Reactions that can play themselves". The reason they went for this route is because they didn't want to state this four times, and it would also ease things up when a future expansion has more of these kinds of Reactions.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #67 on: March 12, 2022, 05:07:19 am »
+1

@dz, Fort-Garrison is missing the +$2. Thank you!
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #68 on: March 12, 2022, 06:07:03 am »
+2

What is the difference between "an explanation of how things work" in a rule book and a rule?

Rules determine how the game is played, and then there are other things in the rule book that help you understand or remember what the rules are and what they do in various situations, like explanations, clarifications, example situations, etc. The part about Reactions is the latter whereas the part about Treasures is the former.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #69 on: March 14, 2022, 06:34:26 am »
+2

After having played quite a few games with it, I must say I really like Innkeeper.

It may not look that strong, but I think I've chosen each separate option multiple times.
If you know the contents of your deck well, you can make well informed decisions and this really helps.

Have a hand with 1 Estate? Maybe go for +3/-3...
Have a hand with 2 Estates? Maybe go for +5/-6..
Have a hand with all good cards? Okay, maybe just use the cantrip option.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #70 on: March 14, 2022, 10:15:39 am »
0

Barbarian
$5; Action-Attack
+$2
Each other player trashes the top card of their deck. If it costs $3 or more they gain a cheaper card sharing a type with it; otherwise they gain a Curse.

Question: Suppose Barbarian hits, say, a Village, but there are no Action cards costing less than $3. Do you get a Curse? I think no, because the "otherwise" would refer back to the "if it costs $3 or more". But it could also mean "if you did not gain a cheaper card"

I also would think no. But Gamble had the opposite ruling. Gamble had a "may" which made it even more ambiguous, but it also had the phrasing "if x otherwise y", where grammatically "otherwise" should mean "if not x", just as with Barbarian.

It would be good with a ruling on this.

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #71 on: March 14, 2022, 10:26:22 am »
0

Barbarian
$5; Action-Attack
+$2
Each other player trashes the top card of their deck. If it costs $3 or more they gain a cheaper card sharing a type with it; otherwise they gain a Curse.

Question: Suppose Barbarian hits, say, a Village, but there are no Action cards costing less than $3. Do you get a Curse? I think no, because the "otherwise" would refer back to the "if it costs $3 or more". But it could also mean "if you did not gain a cheaper card"

I also would think no. But Gamble had the opposite ruling. Gamble had a "may" which made it even more ambiguous, but it also had the phrasing "if x otherwise y", where grammatically "otherwise" should mean "if not x", just as with Barbarian.

It would be good with a ruling on this.
I would think the condition is just "if it costs $3 more".
So if this condition is true, you try to do what it says "gain a cheaper card sharing a type".

As always you try to do as much as you can, but in this case if you can't gain a cheaper card, you just don't gain a card.
So your Village is gone and you don't get a replacement, sorry. :)

From the rulebook:
Quote
If the trashed card
costs 3 or more, they have to gain a cheaper card if they can; if there are no
cheaper cards that share a type, they simply fail to gain a card.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2022, 10:28:00 am by Davio »
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #72 on: March 14, 2022, 10:55:48 am »
0

So your Village is gone and you don't get a replacement, sorry. :)

From the rulebook:
Quote
If the trashed card
costs 3 or more, they have to gain a cheaper card if they can; if there are no
cheaper cards that share a type, they simply fail to gain a card.

Right! I had just read that in the rulebook, but missed the implication that "fail to gain a card" would of course also include the Curse.
I wouldn't say "sorry" though, it's better to gain nothing than a Curse.

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #73 on: March 14, 2022, 11:42:49 am »
0

So your Village is gone and you don't get a replacement, sorry. :)

From the rulebook:
Quote
If the trashed card
costs 3 or more, they have to gain a cheaper card if they can; if there are no
cheaper cards that share a type, they simply fail to gain a card.

Right! I had just read that in the rulebook, but missed the implication that "fail to gain a card" would of course also include the Curse.
I wouldn't say "sorry" though, it's better to gain nothing than a Curse.

What was the ruling on Gamble? I would think just from the wording that you don't discard the non-played action/treasure, you just leave it on top of your deck. This would match the ruling for Barbarian.

(Interestingly, I don't think it's clear that "fail to gain a card" would also include Curse, as it could simply mean "fail to gain a cheaper card sharing a type with it". However, the "simply" in the rules makes it clear for me; "simply" meaning "this and nothing else happens").
« Last Edit: March 14, 2022, 11:46:39 am by GendoIkari »
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #74 on: March 14, 2022, 11:49:04 am »
0

I found in the official FAQ that Gamble does in fact discard the action or treasure if you don't play it. This sounds to me like a contradiction to Barbarian.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #75 on: March 14, 2022, 12:12:03 pm »
+1

I found in the official FAQ that Gamble does in fact discard the action or treasure if you don't play it. This sounds to me like a contradiction to Barbarian.

For whoever is curious, DXV has words about the words: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Gamble#Wording
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #76 on: March 14, 2022, 12:50:58 pm »
0

(Interestingly, I don't think it's clear that "fail to gain a card" would also include Curse, as it could simply mean "fail to gain a cheaper card sharing a type with it". However, the "simply" in the rules makes it clear for me; "simply" meaning "this and nothing else happens").

I agree.

Yes, Gamble had the opposite ruling. You can find the thread about it. As I mentioned it was more ambiguous because of the "may". "You may do x, otherwise do y," sounds okay. But "if x, you may do y, otherwise do z" is at best ambiguous, more strictly should mean that z only happens if not x.

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #77 on: March 14, 2022, 03:05:00 pm »
+1

The difference is that all the rules dealing with reactions are not actually limited to reactions. If a card were printed with all the exact same wordings as Black Cat, but without the reaction type, then you would still be able to play it from your hand when an opponent gains a victory card. This is different than Treasure, because if a card were printed that had all the same words as Horn of Plenty, but without the Treasure type, then you would not be allowed to play it during your buy phase.

In other words, no matter how much the rulebook describes the way in which reactions work, adding reaction as a type to a card doesn’t actually change its functionality. It is no different than adding the Attack type to a card.

These are just rule clarifications that apply to "Reactions that can play themselves". The reason they went for this route is because they didn't want to state this four times, and it would also ease things up when a future expansion has more of these kinds of Reactions.

Rules determine how the game is played, and then there are other things in the rule book that help you understand or remember what the rules are and what they do in various situations, like explanations, clarifications, example situations, etc. The part about Reactions is the latter whereas the part about Treasures is the former.

I see what you are getting at, but I think there isn't as clear a distinction as you suggest. If you go back to the base set rules, nothing specifically says that "if a card instructs you to play an Action card, it does not use an Action," but that is explained in the "Notes" for Throne Room and Vassal. Thus, those "notes" effectively are part of the rules. By Nocturn there is no such clarification for Conclave or Imp. 
 
It may, in theory, be the case that if a Reaction wasn't called a Reaction that it would still work the same, but the fact is that cards that do things at unusual times are Reactions. Whether that's a rule that governs players or a rule that governs how the game is design, it's still, by any reasonable description, a rule.

Also, at least one of the Menagerie rules is in no way suggested by the existing rules of the game:

Quote
If you play a card on someone else's turn, you discard it in that turn's Clean-up, unless it is a Duration card with things left to do.
(Menagerie rule book p. 4).

As far as I'm aware, nothing anywhere in the rules suggests that you would discard cards during another player's clean-up, until this rule.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #78 on: March 14, 2022, 04:08:37 pm »
0

Quote
If you play a card on someone else's turn, you discard it in that turn's Clean-up, unless it is a Duration card with things left to do.
(Menagerie rule book p. 4).

As far as I'm aware, nothing anywhere in the rules suggests that you would discard cards during another player's clean-up, until this rule.

The rule is also in the Adventures rulebook, for Duplicate.
The rule was originally introduced online by Donald regarding Outpost v.1.

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #79 on: March 14, 2022, 04:17:44 pm »
+3

This is kind of funny (to me). Back in 2009, people on BGG were discussing what happens when you play two Outposts in your turn. This was Outpost v.1, where you draw 3 cards in Clean-up and set up an extra turn no matter what, but when you come to resolving that extra turn, you don't get it if you already had two turns in a row. To support the argument that both Outposts should stay in play, this guy theorized a Lich (a "skip your next turn" card), saying that playing two Outposts would actually make a difference then. I think he was right! Play Outpost and Lich, you don't get an extra turn (but still draw 3 cards). Play Outpost, Outpost and Lich, you do get an extra turn!

That was for Outpost v.1. Current Outpost is weaker with Lich; it doesn't give you an extra turn even if you play two.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2022, 01:48:13 am by Jeebus »
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #80 on: March 14, 2022, 06:06:12 pm »
0

The difference is that all the rules dealing with reactions are not actually limited to reactions. If a card were printed with all the exact same wordings as Black Cat, but without the reaction type, then you would still be able to play it from your hand when an opponent gains a victory card. This is different than Treasure, because if a card were printed that had all the same words as Horn of Plenty, but without the Treasure type, then you would not be allowed to play it during your buy phase.

In other words, no matter how much the rulebook describes the way in which reactions work, adding reaction as a type to a card doesn’t actually change its functionality. It is no different than adding the Attack type to a card.

These are just rule clarifications that apply to "Reactions that can play themselves". The reason they went for this route is because they didn't want to state this four times, and it would also ease things up when a future expansion has more of these kinds of Reactions.

Rules determine how the game is played, and then there are other things in the rule book that help you understand or remember what the rules are and what they do in various situations, like explanations, clarifications, example situations, etc. The part about Reactions is the latter whereas the part about Treasures is the former.

I see what you are getting at, but I think there isn't as clear a distinction as you suggest. If you go back to the base set rules, nothing specifically says that "if a card instructs you to play an Action card, it does not use an Action," but that is explained in the "Notes" for Throne Room and Vassal. Thus, those "notes" effectively are part of the rules. By Nocturn there is no such clarification for Conclave or Imp. 
 
It may, in theory, be the case that if a Reaction wasn't called a Reaction that it would still work the same, but the fact is that cards that do things at unusual times are Reactions. Whether that's a rule that governs players or a rule that governs how the game is design, it's still, by any reasonable description, a rule.

Also, at least one of the Menagerie rules is in no way suggested by the existing rules of the game:

Quote
If you play a card on someone else's turn, you discard it in that turn's Clean-up, unless it is a Duration card with things left to do.
(Menagerie rule book p. 4).

As far as I'm aware, nothing anywhere in the rules suggests that you would discard cards during another player's clean-up, until this rule.

Yeah, I still believe that the only types with intrinsic rules are Action, Treasure, Night and maybe Duration. All other types either exist to recolor the card, or as a referent. And obviously, types also have an intuitive characterization, and it'd be bad design to violate that characterization without extremely strong justification. (I honestly also dislike that Masquerade isn't an Attack, although I can definitely see why they went for that route). Don't forget, however, that on-gain and on-trash effects are also unusually timed effects that don't warrant the Reaction typing.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #81 on: March 14, 2022, 06:11:28 pm »
0

Yeah, I still believe that the only types with intrinsic rules are Action, Treasure, Night and maybe Duration.

I don't think that's true. For instance, the type Looter has the intrinsic rule "Ruins are in the supply for this game"; Liaison means "everyone starts with a Favor and you have to choose an Ally".
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #82 on: March 14, 2022, 06:41:44 pm »
+1

Yeah, I still believe that the only types with intrinsic rules are Action, Treasure, Night and maybe Duration.

I don't think that's true. For instance, the type Looter has the intrinsic rule "Ruins are in the supply for this game"; Liaison means "everyone starts with a Favor and you have to choose an Ally".

I'm not sure that that's really an intrinsic rule for Looter though. Nothing would be lost if Looter weren't a type. They're just cards that give Ruins, but other cards that give out certain cards don't have a special type. You don't need, for example, a special type for "cards that give Spoils" to know that you need to have Spoils in the kingdom when you have those cards
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #83 on: March 14, 2022, 06:49:14 pm »
+3

Yeah, I still believe that the only types with intrinsic rules are Action, Treasure, Night and maybe Duration.

I don't think that's true. For instance, the type Looter has the intrinsic rule "Ruins are in the supply for this game"; Liaison means "everyone starts with a Favor and you have to choose an Ally".

I'm not sure that that's really an intrinsic rule for Looter though. Nothing would be lost if Looter weren't a type. They're just cards that give Ruins, but other cards that give out certain cards don't have a special type. You don't need, for example, a special type for "cards that give Spoils" to know that you need to have Spoils in the kingdom when you have those cards

The difference is that Ruins are in the supply. Looters couldn't give out Ruins without an intrinsic rule because there would be no ruins. That's not the case for Spoils or Horses; they're theoretically always there but don't matter if nothing gains them.

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #84 on: March 14, 2022, 07:49:36 pm »
0

Quote
If you play a card on someone else's turn, you discard it in that turn's Clean-up, unless it is a Duration card with things left to do.
(Menagerie rule book p. 4).

As far as I'm aware, nothing anywhere in the rules suggests that you would discard cards during another player's clean-up, until this rule.

The rule is also in the Adventures rulebook, for Duplicate.
The rule was originally introduced online by Donald regarding Outpost v.1.

This is kind of funny (to me). Back in 2009, people on BGG were discussing what happens when you play two Outposts in your turn. This was Outpost v.1, where you draw 3 cards in Clean-up and set up an extra turn no matter what, but when you come to resolving that extra turn, you don't get it if you already had two turns in a row. To support the argument that both Outposts should stay in play, this guy theorized a Lich (a "skip your next turn" card), saying that playing two Outposts would actually make a difference then. I think he was right! Play Outpost and Lich, you don't get an extra turn (but still draw 3 cards). Play Outpost, Outpost and Lich, you do get an extra turn!

That was for Outpost v.1. Current Outpost is weaker with Lich; it doesn't give you an extra turn even if you play two. (But at least it doesn't make you draw 3 cards then.)

These are very good points, and I didn't think of Duplicate (and wasn't aware of the ruling on Outpost). But my specific point might have distracted from my broader (and possibly not that well made) point. All of these things--the general rule about playing Action cards during your Action phase and needing to spend an Action to do so; the "Notes" for Vassal and Throne Room saying playing another card with them doesn't use an Action; the Note on Duplicate about when it is discarded; Donald's ruling on the old version of Outpost--all of them are "rules" in the sense that they govern how the game is played. And so is the fact that those rules also apply Reactions that play themselves.

Just because there is rule that says (roughly):

Quote
When Card A says "You may play a card from your hand..." and Card A is used to play Card B, playing Card B doesn't use a Action.

...it doesn't self-evidently follow that...

Quote
When Card C says "When...you may play this from your hand" doing so doesn't use an Action.

It is entirely reasonable to think that a card playing itself at an unusual time is different than one card playing another, and might follow different rules (i.e. might require you to spend an Action, or at least might cost you an Action if you have one). The ruling that they don't, whether in general rules section, in individual card notes, or in a ruling online by Donald are all "rules." And the fact that some of these "rules" apply to Reactions generally make them rules about Reactions.


Yeah, I still believe that the only types with intrinsic rules are Action, Treasure, Night and maybe Duration. All other types either exist to recolor the card, or as a referent. And obviously, types also have an intuitive characterization, and it'd be bad design to violate that characterization without extremely strong justification. (I honestly also dislike that Masquerade isn't an Attack, although I can definitely see why they went for that route). Don't forget, however, that on-gain and on-trash effects are also unusually timed effects that don't warrant the Reaction typing.

Right, and there are rules about on-gain abilities and on-trash abilities. If all the cards with an on-trash ability had a certain type, then the rules about cards with an on-trash ability would be a rule about that type.


I'm not sure that that's really an intrinsic rule for Looter though. Nothing would be lost if Looter weren't a type. They're just cards that give Ruins, but other cards that give out certain cards don't have a special type. You don't need, for example, a special type for "cards that give Spoils" to know that you need to have Spoils in the kingdom when you have those cards

But they are called Looters, so the rule that when there are Looters you add a Ruins pile is a rule about Looters. (Incidentally, there are some important differences between Looters and other cards that give non-Kingdom cards: (a) Ruins are Supply cards; and (b) you don't just automatically put out the whole pile).

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #85 on: March 15, 2022, 05:34:12 am »
0

There are some card types which just exist to remind you to do something during setup.

Shelters replace Estates, Heirlooms replace Coppers.
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #86 on: March 15, 2022, 06:06:02 am »
0

Yeah, I still believe that the only types with intrinsic rules are Action, Treasure, Night and maybe Duration.

I don't think that's true. For instance, the type Looter has the intrinsic rule "Ruins are in the supply for this game"; Liaison means "everyone starts with a Favor and you have to choose an Ally".

You're right. Other types can also have a third functionality, namely a setup change (which means they do something when the game starts). Completely forgot about that lol.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2022, 06:09:10 am by grrgrrgrr »
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #87 on: March 15, 2022, 07:03:46 am »
+1

Action, Treasure and Night have rules.

Duration has several rules.

Victory has a rule, which is that the victory points on it are counted at the end of the game. The same with Curse.

Attack, Traveller, Command and Gathering have no rules, but are referred to by cards. (The setup rules are for Page and Peasant, not Traveller.)

Reserve has no rules, and no cards refer to it.

Looter has a setup rule. Sure, we could theoretically get rid of it. We would have to say the that Ruins are included if any card that mentions Ruins is in the game. We could get rid of Doom, Fate, Heirloom, Zombie and Clash the same way, since they only have setup rules. But, you know, they do have setup rules, and for good reasons.

Reaction has some rules, for instance the one I mentioned, that a Reaction in your hand can be resolved several times when it triggers. The other rule is the complicated one about getting a new chance to resolve a Reaction if another player did something. Okay, those rules are not technically limited to Reactions, but in practice they are, and they would be even more difficult to phrase without using that tag.

faust

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #88 on: March 15, 2022, 07:20:30 am »
+1

Looter has a setup rule. Sure, we could theoretically get rid of it. We would have to say the that Ruins are included if any card that mentions Ruins is in the game. We could get rid of Doom, Fate, Heirloom, Zombie and Clash the same way, since they only have setup rules. But, you know, they do have setup rules, and for good reasons.
Do Zombies have a setup rule? The setup instruction for Zombies is on Necromancer. Seems like they should go into the "cards refer to them" category.
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Jeebus

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #89 on: March 15, 2022, 07:30:25 am »
0

Looter has a setup rule. Sure, we could theoretically get rid of it. We would have to say the that Ruins are included if any card that mentions Ruins is in the game. We could get rid of Doom, Fate, Heirloom, Zombie and Clash the same way, since they only have setup rules. But, you know, they do have setup rules, and for good reasons.
Do Zombies have a setup rule? The setup instruction for Zombies is on Necromancer. Seems like they should go into the "cards refer to them" category.
I was referring to that instruction. I guess you could look at it either way. But you only need that rule when setting up, not when playing, so it could technically go in the rulebook.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2022, 04:57:59 am by Jeebus »
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #90 on: March 15, 2022, 08:46:20 am »
+3

Looter has a setup rule. Sure, we could theoretically get rid of it. We would have to say the that Ruins are included if any card that mentions Ruins is in the game.
Which would slightly change things, but not in any serious way. (Vagrant mentions Ruins but is not a Looter.)
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mxdata

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #91 on: March 15, 2022, 12:30:44 pm »
+1

There are some card types which just exist to remind you to do something during setup.

Shelters replace Estates, Heirlooms replace Coppers.

Shelter is also referred to by Vagrant, so it's not just for setup. Heirloom is a weird one, since nothing refers to Heirlooms as a type, and the "Heirloom:" keyword could just be treated as an abbreviated setup instruction ("Setup: Replace one of your starting Coppers with ______")
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #92 on: March 15, 2022, 06:57:46 pm »
+6

I keep checking this thread thinking people might actually be talking about Allies. Nope. They're just caviling* about card types.
*I just learned this word recently thanks to Wordle.

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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #93 on: March 16, 2022, 05:50:24 pm »
+8

Tis always been the f.ds way - come for the strategy(?) , stay for the gratuitous card wording and punctuation débat
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Re: Allies is online
« Reply #94 on: April 02, 2022, 07:48:40 pm »
+5

Although in real life, I prefer horses to sycophants, I feel the opposite when it comes to tournament prizes.

We have a time traveler in our midst. For @ehunt spoke of Menagerie and Allies over a decade ago.
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