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[Jeebus]

I think that's right (technically, I think you choose which turn to take next, and then that turn gets skipped by Lich). In my previous post I analogized it to Merchant or Scheme, which are action cards that do something later than when they are finished resolving (in other words, you can play the card, do other things, then get the impact of the card's effect).

You could think of them as creating what I called effect tokens. Each play of Merchant creates an effect token which, if you play a Silver for the first time later that turn, generate +$1. Each play of Scheme creates an effect token which, when you discard a card from play, allows you to topdeck it.*

I think the most reasonable understanding of Lich is that it creates an effect token which, the next time you would take a turn, you instead skip that turn.

Yeah, how setting up a future ability works is not really a question, we've had that since Seaside, and then Possession and Scheme. (Technically, Bridge and Coppersmith do this too.) Even with Durations it's not the card that gives you the future ability (or a hypothetical token), it's just the fact that you played a card that says so. So the Duration could be trashed from play (with Bonfire or Procession v.1) and it would still give you the future ability.

But I see you agree with what I wrote:
I assume yes; Lich sets up a future "skip a turn" ability, and when you resolve it, you choose which turn to skip. When do you make that choice though? I guess it's in-between turns.

And previously:
With Lich, you should be able to choose which turn to skip if you have several coming up, like one from Voyage and one from Outpost for instance. I mean, you can always choose which turn to take next, and I guess that's the turn you will skip.

[Jeebus]

* I think this means that if you set aside a Scheme with Prince, you could play Highwayman every turn, by playing triggering Prince first (thus playing Scheme), then triggering Highwayman, using Scheme to topdeck it, and then draw it as one of your 3 cards.

Yeah, that should work. This is the first time it's possible to trigger a "when you discard this from play" ability outside of Clean-up actually.

[joefarebrother]

Recursion also just means recurring things; a definition that I hear mtg players using all the time.

[ems57fcva]

As a fellow software engineer, I don't understand the wording complaint. Even the complaint itself starts with "A software recursion is where...". But the thread title doesn't say anything about software recursion. ...

Recursion doesn't have to be used in the context of computer science or programming, even though it often is used in that context. Here, the meaning was clear enough; these are cards that have abilities which play make the card recur; or happen again each turn. Sure perhaps "recurring cards" would be more technically accurate than "recursion", but I don't see the actual problem here.

You have a point there, and it is easy to say "Let Donald X. have his way. It's his game after all".   But it would also be cool if there was a card that actually recursively reused itself while being resolved.  So I have made the point.  The one problem is that you need to be careful with it.  For one, there are usually better ways than recursion to have an effect.  Even my example could be "+1 card; spend any number of favors to draw that many cards and discard that many cards; discard a card".  Same result, no recursion.  And creating a card that is not too complex or powerful is another problem.  But that is a neat puzzle all the same.

[Valendale]

Well, there goes my crazy prediction that Sorcerer would be a powerful curser that had the effect of removing the VP penalty.

[trivialknot]

I've been posting my thoughts on all the previews (without having tested any of them), so here's day 4.

In day 2, we saw Herb Gatherer, which was weak but had a resource that you might miss out on if you didn't grab it right away.  Student has a similar dynamic.  As a trasher it seems mediocre.  It only trashes one, decreases your handsize, the only additional benefit is the favor, if you trash a copper.  Topdecking is nice I guess, but if the card is so mediocre I have to imagine topdecking same card is also mediocre.  Nonetheless, sometimes you need a trasher (or the favors), and you don't want to miss out.

Conjurer is the workshop that keeps on workshopping.  Good when workshop is good I guess.  It doesn't synergize with other Wizards though.

Sorceror sounds familiar.  Unlike Familiar, it sometimes misses, and doesn't stack.  Good if your opponent foolishly skipped Student and there no other trashers.

Lich doesn't strike me as very good?  Like Tactician, but less opportunity for weird workarounds.  Okay, you can skip a Voyage turn, that's good.  You can play it on your last turn, but well you spent $6 on this card and you're only playing it once?  I suspect the true power house here is the bottom ability.  Remodel into Province + Duchy and you keep the Lich to remodel again on the same turn?  That's game winning in the right situation.

Merchant Camp, the village that keeps villaging.  I'd get one for reliability, but to topdeck two each turn seems like it could make your deck less reliable, not more.

Highwayman kind of surprised me, because I thought the issue with attacks like these was that they really dragged the game down when stacked with Militia attacks.  Well anyway, I think you get this more for the draw than for the attack.  It's slightly better than Haunted Woods because you could theoretically play it every turn.

Island Folk... So, if Underling is a cantrip that gives you an extra turn every 5 plays, would it be good?  Absolutely.  I mean, even on a basic level, an extra turn is +5 cards +1 action +1 buy, that's really strong.  In an engine, it's even better.

I take it you can't use Order of Masons during game setup?  Hey, I would totally buy a single Underling to maintain two estates in exile.  That seems competitive with trashing options.  It may not work with engines that shuffle multiple times per turn though.

[mxdata]

I've been posting my thoughts on all the previews (without having tested any of them), so here's day 4.

In day 2, we saw Herb Gatherer, which was weak but had a resource that you might miss out on if you didn't grab it right away.  Student has a similar dynamic.  As a trasher it seems mediocre.  It only trashes one, decreases your handsize, the only additional benefit is the favor, if you trash a copper.  Topdecking is nice I guess, but if the card is so mediocre I have to imagine topdecking same card is also mediocre.  Nonetheless, sometimes you need a trasher (or the favors), and you don't want to miss out.

Conjurer is the workshop that keeps on workshopping.  Good when workshop is good I guess.  It doesn't synergize with other Wizards though.

Sorceror sounds familiar.  Unlike Familiar, it sometimes misses, and doesn't stack.  Good if your opponent foolishly skipped Student and there no other trashers.

Lich doesn't strike me as very good?  Like Tactician, but less opportunity for weird workarounds.  Okay, you can skip a Voyage turn, that's good.  You can play it on your last turn, but well you spent $6 on this card and you're only playing it once?  I suspect the true power house here is the bottom ability.  Remodel into Province + Duchy and you keep the Lich to remodel again on the same turn?  That's game winning in the right situation.

Merchant Camp, the village that keeps villaging.  I'd get one for reliability, but to topdeck two each turn seems like it could make your deck less reliable, not more.

Highwayman kind of surprised me, because I thought the issue with attacks like these was that they really dragged the game down when stacked with Militia attacks.  Well anyway, I think you get this more for the draw than for the attack.  It's slightly better than Haunted Woods because you could theoretically play it every turn.

Island Folk... So, if Underling is a cantrip that gives you an extra turn every 5 plays, would it be good?  Absolutely.  I mean, even on a basic level, an extra turn is +5 cards +1 action +1 buy, that's really strong.  In an engine, it's even better.

I take it you can't use Order of Masons during game setup?  Hey, I would totally buy a single Underling to maintain two estates in exile.  That seems competitive with trashing options.  It may not work with engines that shuffle multiple times per turn though.

Merchant Camp with the +1 Card token would be a real power house. Just one would net the same as Barracks + Key, and multiples would be increasingly strong

But I think you're overlooking something with Lich - it can only gain from the trash, so it's rare that it would let you gain a Duchy. In fact, in a lot of games, that would be a drawback. It's pretty frequent that the only stuff in the trash is junk. So, you'd end up junking your deck

On the other hand, if there is good stuff in the trash, it can be great. A fun combo would be buying it with a Watchtower in hand. Trash it with Watchtower, and it still ends up in the same place, plus you gain a bonus card costing up to $5 from the trash!

[joefarebrother]

In a game with TFB cards to trash lich to profitably, there's probably also going to be some other non-junk cards in the trash too.

[trivialknot]

Fair point with the Lich, I was wondering why nobody seemed to be talking about what was obviously an overpowered ability.  Gaining a card from the trash seems significantly worse.  It's not even optional, so you might end up gaining a copper or estate.  Still, having a thing to trash repeatedly can be good.

[Ingix]

I take it you can't use Order of Masons during game setup? 

Correct, you can't. This expressively mentioned in the rulebook.

[mxdata]

Have we ever gotten a definitive answer on the question of whether below-the-line effects still happen with Treasures affected by Highwayman? I would think the answer is yes, since they're still "in play", but I can also see the argument that "does nothing" means they're effectively like a blank card

[Jeebus]

Have we ever gotten a definitive answer on the question of whether below-the-line effects still happen with Treasures affected by Highwayman? I would think the answer is yes, since they're still "in play", but I can also see the argument that "does nothing" means they're effectively like a blank card

No, this is among the array of questions I'm saving for when the rulebook comes out.

[Ingix]

As with Enchantresses/Ways, the below-the-line effects of cards are not affected. So Quarry doesn't produce $1 when played as first Treasure under Highwayman, but it does reduce the cost of Action cards.

[emtzalex]

Fair point with the Lich, I was wondering why nobody seemed to be talking about what was obviously an overpowered ability.  Gaining a card from the trash seems significantly worse.  It's not even optional, so you might end up gaining a copper or estate.  Still, having a thing to trash repeatedly can be good.

Also, Lich is in a pile with an extreme efficient Copper trasher (Student). Depending on the Ally, you might want to bring back the Coppers to convert them into Favors.

[mxdata]

Fair point with the Lich, I was wondering why nobody seemed to be talking about what was obviously an overpowered ability.  Gaining a card from the trash seems significantly worse.  It's not even optional, so you might end up gaining a copper or estate.  Still, having a thing to trash repeatedly can be good.

Also, Lich is in a pile with an extreme efficient Copper trasher (Student). Depending on the Ally, you might want to bring back the Coppers to convert them into Favors.

If there's any +buy, it would probably be more efficient to just buy Coppers for that

[mxdata]

Have we ever gotten a definitive answer on the question of whether below-the-line effects still happen with Treasures affected by Highwayman? I would think the answer is yes, since they're still "in play", but I can also see the argument that "does nothing" means they're effectively like a blank card

Looks like the answer is "yes", from the rulebook

This stops the Treasure from doing what it does when played, but doesn't stop abilities below a dividing line, like Capital's (from Empires). If the Treasure is also an Action, a Way (from Menagerie) can still be used on it, and Enchantress (from Empires) can still work on it; the player who played the Treasure decides which effect applies.

[J Reggie]

I just realized, I think Lich is the first way to gain OGE and Hovel.

[mxdata]

I just realized, I think Lich is the first way to gain OGE and Hovel.

And also the first way to gain a Curse from the trash. Although that would only be useful in a few edge cases

[Commodore Chuckles]

Lich overall makes this thread obsolete: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19037.msg772104#msg772104

[BBobb]

So now the only ununtrashable card would be vineyard now, right?