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Author Topic: Allies Preview 3: Choose One  (Read 19505 times)

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GendoIkari

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Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One
« Reply #50 on: March 02, 2022, 12:08:53 pm »
0

Two additional rulings that you can discover from online:
-If you Elder a Scrap and trash a Curse, you get no bonuses.

I guess I'm missing something, but why does that require a ruling? How could it be thought of differently?

People asked about it on discord! I didn't expect the question either.

Hunh, I would've assumed you would get a bonus. The way I read it is that you essentially add one to the "Choose X:". Scrapping a Curse normally works out as "Choose 0:" (because Curse is worth $0), which would then become "Choose 1:"

Yeah this would make sense to me, but I can also see the ruling that what it's looking for isn't the wording "Choose X", but rather when the card actually gives you a choice via a "Choose X" wording. So in the case of "Choose 0", you aren't actually being given a choice; there is only 1 way to choose.

Also, this seems way to similar to that huge "can you shuffle 1 card" debate that was had a long time ago. Can you call something a choice if you only have 1 thing to choose from?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2022, 12:10:56 pm by GendoIkari »
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Gubump

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Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One
« Reply #51 on: March 02, 2022, 12:30:17 pm »
+1

So is there a list of the cards Elder provides extra choices with, or should I just trawl the template:Navbox cards and figure it out for the wiki?


Today seems to have been the +1 Card and +1 Action day. as always let me know if I missed anything.

Only three +1 Card and +1 Action today, not four (Town Crier, Blacksmith, and Modify).
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Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One
« Reply #52 on: March 02, 2022, 12:43:55 pm »
0

One interpretation for Elder on Courtier would be:

(Normal Courtier) "For each type it has, choose one:" becomes (with Elder) "For each type it has, {choose one, then you may choose an extra (different) option}".
So:
1 type -> 1 or 2 choices
2 types -> 2, 3 or 4 choices
3 types -> 3-6 choices.

Then it becomes unclear what interaction there is between Courtier's "The choices must be different" and Elder's choices.

I thought about that, but rejected it. The rulebook for Courtier states that you choose your options first, then do them. So this is not several consecutive effects involving choosing. You choose just one time, then do the effects. Then "the choices must be different" also makes sense. So it's another example of a card not written 100% technically correct. We still have no idea how Scrap is supposed to work with Elder. It doesn't say the magical "choose x".

This is why these cards (like Capitalism and Way of the Chameleon) are always confusing and unclear.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2022, 12:45:02 pm by Jeebus »
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Squidd

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Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One
« Reply #53 on: March 02, 2022, 01:12:12 pm »
0

Also, this seems way to similar to that huge "can you shuffle 1 card" debate that was had a long time ago.

Assuming you mean the 2016 BGG thread, the latest post (on page 187) was a week ago.
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Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One
« Reply #54 on: March 02, 2022, 01:32:16 pm »
+1

Also, this seems way to similar to that huge "can you shuffle 1 card" debate that was had a long time ago.
Assuming you mean the 2016 BGG thread, the latest post (on page 187) was a week ago.
probably more the thread in the rules questions subforum; but that ended in 2016. incidentally, the rulings were you can shuffle one card, but not zero.
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Donald X.

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Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One
« Reply #55 on: March 02, 2022, 01:46:57 pm »
+9

- Elder only interacts with "choose N."
- With Courtier you get one extra choice, not one extra choice per type.
- Tentatively Elder - Scrap - Copper gives you one choice. I can't read the relevant things this minute.

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GendoIkari

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Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One
« Reply #56 on: March 02, 2022, 02:11:29 pm »
+1

Also, this seems way to similar to that huge "can you shuffle 1 card" debate that was had a long time ago.

Assuming you mean the 2016 BGG thread, the latest post (on page 187) was a week ago.

I was thinking of a thread that happened here, though I don't remember if that was before or after the BGG thread. Crazy that it's still active on BGG.

*Edit* I can't find a thread with recent activity about it on BGG.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2022, 02:14:50 pm by GendoIkari »
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Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One
« Reply #57 on: March 02, 2022, 02:15:37 pm »
+2

- Elder only interacts with "choose N."
- With Courtier you get one extra choice, not one extra choice per type.
- Tentatively Elder - Scrap - Copper gives you one choice. I can't read the relevant things this minute.
I'm OK with Scrap going either way.

Elder specifies "when it gives you a choice" and you could reason that if you trash something costing $0 you don't even get a choice so you can't get an extra choice.
The conclusion/ruling would be "an extra choice is only valid if you could choose at least one thing, otherwise there was no choice".

But then again, I could see the ruling being "a choice of 0 things is still a choice, so you just get 1 choice instead".
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Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One
« Reply #58 on: March 02, 2022, 02:48:40 pm »
+1

- Elder only interacts with "choose N."

Scrap says "choose a different thing", not "choose N", but close enough I guess.

Squidd

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Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One
« Reply #59 on: March 02, 2022, 03:31:56 pm »
0

The BGG thread, which started a week after the thread here (which ended a few days later).
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GendoIkari

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Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One
« Reply #60 on: March 02, 2022, 04:27:17 pm »
+1

The BGG thread, which started a week after the thread here (which ended a few days later).

Thanks; didn't find it because I was looking in the Dominion forums. But yeah I remember when that thread was made; it was in response to the thread here; attempting to get more objective inputs.
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Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One
« Reply #61 on: March 02, 2022, 07:46:38 pm »
+2

I just had a game with the Townsfolk and Broker. Elder + Broker is a pretty strong combo, because you can get two of the bonuses. So, for example, trashing an Estate can give you a Lost City effect (in addition to Elder's +$2)
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Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One
« Reply #62 on: March 02, 2022, 09:50:29 pm »
+1

Even ignoring the craziness of Elder, I really like the design space of these choose-one's. I'm thinking these cards are really going to help smooth out engine play -- especially in the early building stage.

As an example, take Town. Village is often completely useless if it's not drawn with other actions. Same thing for Woodcutter if it IS drawn with other terminals. Well, put them together, and it's almost always useful. And with Elder, it's... a Grand Market Village for $4?

+0 Cards (because you played two from hand)
+2 Actions
+1 Buy
+ (2 from each card)

So more like “Grand” Festival. Isn’t there some custom way to insert the Coins symbol on this board?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2022, 10:16:00 pm by vidicate »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One
« Reply #63 on: March 02, 2022, 10:04:55 pm »
+1

Isn’t there some custom way to insert the Coins symbol on this board?

Check out my signature :)
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Gherald

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Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One
« Reply #64 on: March 02, 2022, 10:14:04 pm »
0

In every game I've played with Townsfolk, they're too slow. I've never even seen the Elder combo go off, there's always been better things to be doing for $5. This won't _always_ be the case, but meh, what a forgettable and unnecessary split pile that just doesn't add anything compelling to any kingdom. Give me any other random card, thanks
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vidicate

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Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One
« Reply #65 on: March 02, 2022, 10:14:50 pm »
+1

Isn’t there some custom way to insert the Coins symbol on this board?

Check out my signature :)

Aha, yes, thanks! I’ll make note of that if I ever stop doing all my interneting from my iPad.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One
« Reply #66 on: March 02, 2022, 10:30:23 pm »
+3

I have to say, it's nice that you can open Town and not feel like a Village Idiot.
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vidicate

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Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One
« Reply #67 on: March 03, 2022, 12:08:08 am »
0

In every game I've played with Townsfolk, they're too slow. I've never even seen the Elder combo go off, there's always been better things to be doing for $5. This won't _always_ be the case, but meh, what a forgettable and unnecessary split pile that just doesn't add anything compelling to any kingdom. Give me any other random card, thanks

I haven’t played it much myself. Were these bot games? Or with real opponents?
Edit: typo
« Last Edit: March 09, 2022, 07:00:57 pm by vidicate »
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Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One
« Reply #68 on: March 03, 2022, 12:41:22 am »
+1

- Elder only interacts with "choose N."

Scrap says "choose a different thing", not "choose N", but close enough I guess.

My understanding of Scrap is that it's worded the way it is to save a few words (and probably a line, and maintain a large enough font size).  It could read "Trash a card.  For each $ it costs, choose 1: ...; ...; ... (the choices must be different)."  Then it makes the wording very similar to Courtier, and now has the "choose N" trigger.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One
« Reply #69 on: March 03, 2022, 01:06:24 am »
+1

- Elder only interacts with "choose N."

Scrap says "choose a different thing", not "choose N", but close enough I guess.

My understanding of Scrap is that it's worded the way it is to save a few words (and probably a line, and maintain a large enough font size).  It could read "Trash a card.  For each $ it costs, choose 1: ...; ...; ... (the choices must be different)."  Then it makes the wording very similar to Courtier, and now has the "choose N" trigger.

This is true, but the question comes down to when does a choice of wording made to save space also then end up having a rules impact? Cards like Envoy received errata so that the "draw" text didn't interfere with new stuff that cards about drawing (-1 card token). Envoy, both old and new wording, don't interact with Way of the Chameleon, even though you could say that Envoy's wording was just a clearer version of "Discard that one. +4 cards".

Capitalism, Way of the Chameleon, Patron, and now Elder all care about not only what sort of ability a card has, but what specific wording is used on the cards to deal with that ability.

We know that Elder is intended to work with Scrap's wording, and that it's not intended to work with Navigator's wording (even though Navigator could have just as easily be written with a "Choose one" wording instead). But we don't know an exact rule (yet) for what set of words makes Elder work. Sounds like it has it must have the word "choose", and also must list a series of effects that you can choose from afterwards.
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One
« Reply #70 on: March 03, 2022, 06:25:43 am »
+1

I think that there is a good chance that Elder is the next Capitalism. It is wacky, but I feel that whatever you try to pull with Elder, is very much held back by the fact that Elder by itself is just a disappearing Silver. This means that turning Town Crier and Town into Grand Markets is actually nowhere near as impressive as it sounds. It also doesn't help that you likely only get two of those. Because of that, you'd actually wanna avoid being dependent on Blacksmith for your drawing (which is also hot garbage on its own).

Elder+Minion is pretty nice, though, although the opportunity cost of unlocking Elder and buying that thing over another Minion is probably too much on average.
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Freddy10

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Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One
« Reply #71 on: March 03, 2022, 05:19:45 pm »
+3

If you go online, you will find out that Elder's text ONLY applies to choose one's and choose two's. Feel free to complain about the wording, it is what it is (I myself would probably give up on keeping the text at max font).

This is also implied through Donald X.'s preview text; if Elder applied to literally all abilities, then what does this sentence mean?
If I made a card like Elder as a regular pile, game after game there'd be no choose-one on the same board.

So Elder doesn't affect Barge, Jester, Border Guard, or even Duchess. It's only for cards like Pawn, Count, Amulet (for one turn), and Town Crier.

Two additional rulings that you can discover from online:
-If you Elder a Scrap and trash a Curse, you get no bonuses.
-If you Elder a Catacombs (and choose both options), you put the 3 cards you're looking at into your hand, then you discard those exact 3 cards and draw 3 new cards. (Catacombs is the only thing moving those 3 cards, so stop-moving doesn't apply here.) Yes it's weird, and would require an extreme edge case to be useful in gameplay.
While Elder+Catacombs can be simplified to the second option, if you follow the instructions, you put the cards into your hand, but when you discard them, nobody else can know if the discarded cards where the same or not (only you saw them). I think that probably nobody will "cheat" here, but it feels that some lost tracking rule should apply
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Gherald

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Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One
« Reply #72 on: March 03, 2022, 06:49:33 pm »
+2

- Tentatively Elder - Scrap - Copper gives you one choice. I can't read the relevant things this minute.
Not in the online implementation...


It would be very weird if Elder - Scrap - Copper did give a choice but Elder - Scrap - Curse still doesn't (as reported). Like, they're both $0 cards and should just behave the same way.

I can't tell which way is correct from reading their text, though -- as Davio points out it could be ruled either way.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One
« Reply #73 on: March 04, 2022, 12:46:52 am »
0

If you go online, you will find out that Elder's text ONLY applies to choose one's and choose two's. Feel free to complain about the wording, it is what it is (I myself would probably give up on keeping the text at max font).

This is also implied through Donald X.'s preview text; if Elder applied to literally all abilities, then what does this sentence mean?
If I made a card like Elder as a regular pile, game after game there'd be no choose-one on the same board.

So Elder doesn't affect Barge, Jester, Border Guard, or even Duchess. It's only for cards like Pawn, Count, Amulet (for one turn), and Town Crier.

Two additional rulings that you can discover from online:
-If you Elder a Scrap and trash a Curse, you get no bonuses.
-If you Elder a Catacombs (and choose both options), you put the 3 cards you're looking at into your hand, then you discard those exact 3 cards and draw 3 new cards. (Catacombs is the only thing moving those 3 cards, so stop-moving doesn't apply here.) Yes it's weird, and would require an extreme edge case to be useful in gameplay.
While Elder+Catacombs can be simplified to the second option, if you follow the instructions, you put the cards into your hand, but when you discard them, nobody else can know if the discarded cards where the same or not (only you saw them). I think that probably nobody will "cheat" here, but it feels that some lost tracking rule should apply

It's not really different than discarding multiple cards simultaneously and then revealing a discarded Tunnel from your discard pile.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Allies Preview 3: Choose One
« Reply #74 on: March 04, 2022, 12:48:36 am »
+1

- Tentatively Elder - Scrap - Copper gives you one choice. I can't read the relevant things this minute.
Not in the online implementation...


It would be very weird if Elder - Scrap - Copper did give a choice but Elder - Scrap - Curse still doesn't (as reported). Like, they're both $0 cards and should just behave the same way.

I can't tell which way is correct from reading their text, though -- as Davio points out it could be ruled either way.

No, the tentative ruling would apply to all cost cards; Copper was just the example card. And the online implementation doesn't match the tentative ruling for any cost cards. If the tentative ruling becomes official, online would likely be fixed.
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