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[Davio]

For Catacombs case, can we discard them and +3 Cards 1st and then put them into my hand?

I think the problem here is moving the cards.

The stop-moving rule: An effect can move a card if it specifies where the card is coming from, or if the effect put the card where it is now. If a card isn't where the effect would expect it to be, or has moved away from there and then back, it can't move the card. Played cards expect to be in play; they can't move themselves if they aren't. Gained cards are expected to be where they were gained to, even if this isn't the discard pile. Cards in discard piles can be moved even if covered up by other cards; cards on top of a deck can't be moved once covered up.

Either effect of Catacombs expects the cards to be on top of your deck. So if you first discard them and draw 3 new cards, I would think that attempting to put them into your hand would fail.

If the card would be retrofit with text like this:

Choose one: put the top 3 cards of your deck into your hand; or discard them and +3 cards. You may look at the top 3 cards of your deck before making a choice.

Then it would work I guess?

[Jeebus]

I can tell you that Donald X. playtested the online version before previews week. Hopefully that's not a surprise.

No, but there are a number of wrongly implemented card interations there already, so somehow they get in sometimes, usually corner cases of course. As a rule I just don't base rulings on how the online client works.

I guess you're asking, when does Elder's ability apply? If so then it's your second interpretation: you make the choices all at once, and then you do them in the written order.

I was not asking about that specifically, but that's actually an even more relevant question! From the text I would have thought it was the other way: you first make the choices (all at once) that the card gives, and then you may choose an extra option. (It could still comply with my second interpretation.)

[Davio]

I can tell you that Donald X. playtested the online version before previews week. Hopefully that's not a surprise.

No, but there are a number of wrongly implemented card interations there already, so somehow they get in sometimes, usually corner cases of course. As a rule I just don't base rulings on how the online client works.

I guess you're asking, when does Elder's ability apply? If so then it's your second interpretation: you make the choices all at once, and then you do them in the written order.

I was not asking about that specifically, but that's actually an even more relevant question! From the text I would have thought it was the other way: you first make the choices (all at once) that the card gives, and then you may choose an extra option. (It could still comply with my second interpretation.)

Cards which let you make more than 1 choice always make you make the choices at the same time, so I would guess it works this way with Elder as well.

I think any card which reads "choose one" simply becomes "choose two (choices must be different)" like Pawn.

[Jeebus]

For Catacombs case, can we discard them and +3 Cards 1st and then put them into my hand?

Hey, I missed that possibility! Yes, if we assume that Catacombs doesn't lose track of the cards (as Dz was saying regarding how Dominion Online works), then yes, you could discard them, draw 3 cards, and put the discarded cards in your hand.

If it's the other way, that Catacombs does lose track, you could instead choose to put them into your hand, then fail to discard them, and draw 3 cards.

In either case, you end up drawing 6 cards!

EDIT: Just tested it online. If you choose both options, the client doesn't let you choose to discard first, so you end up discarding the cards. Pretty sure that's wrong. EDIT AGAIN: You have to do it in order, so this would not be possible if you have to choose options first.

[King Leon]

Interesting. How does Elder interact with Count? Do I get exactly one additional optional choice total or one choice for the (besides of edge cases) bad effect and one choice for the good effect, where both choices are optional?

And what about Band of Misfits? Its German translation (Vogelfreie) contains „Wähle eine Aktionskarte aus dem Vorrat“ (“Choose one Action card from the supply”) and would be literally affected by Elder.

[Davio]

Interesting. How does Elder interact with Count? Do I get exactly one additional choice or one choice for the (besides of edge cases) bad effect and one choice for the good effect?

And what about Band of Misfits? Its German translation (Vogelfreie) contains „Wähle eine Aktionskarte aus dem Vorrat“ (“Choose one Action card from the supply”) and would be literally affected by Elder.

There are 2 separate "choose one" parts on Count, they are not related, so I guess you need to choose 2 different positives and 2 different negatives.

[m_knox]

And what about Band of Misfits? Its German translation (Vogelfreie) contains „Wähle eine Aktionskarte aus dem Vorrat“ (“Choose one Action card from the supply”) and would be literally affected by Elder.

I do not think this will be the case. You see, "Action card from the Supply" is not an ability, and Elder refers to abilities.

[Davio]

And what about Band of Misfits? Its German translation (Vogelfreie) contains „Wähle eine Aktionskarte aus dem Vorrat“ (“Choose one Action card from the supply”) and would be literally affected by Elder.

I do not think this will be the case. You see, "Action card from the Supply" is not an ability, and Elder refers to abilities.

"ability" currently is not a clearly defined term, maybe it should be? I don't know.

There does seem to be a difference between choices presented by cards (abilities?) and choices which are simply part of resolving an effect, such as Scrying Pool's 'your choice'. I would not expect that with Scrying Pool I would be able to choose to both topdeck and discard the card.

[Davio]

I think that not being able to let the player choose the order can be problematic and counter intutive.

Example: Native Village

I would think that if I played Elder with Native Village I could choose the order in which I put a card on the mat and take all my cards from the mat.
But if I have to do it in written order, I always have to put down a card first.

[markus]

EDIT: Just tested it online. If you choose both options, the client doesn't let you choose to discard first, so you end up discarding the cards. Pretty sure that's wrong.

Is this not just the usual following in order of the options on the card when choosing more than 1 (e.g. Pawn)?

[Jeebus]

And what about Band of Misfits? Its German translation (Vogelfreie) contains „Wähle eine Aktionskarte aus dem Vorrat“ (“Choose one Action card from the supply”) and would be literally affected by Elder.

I do not think this will be the case. You see, "Action card from the Supply" is not an ability, and Elder refers to abilities.

"ability" currently is not a clearly defined term, maybe it should be? I don't know.

There does seem to be a difference between choices presented by cards (abilities?) and choices which are simply part of resolving an effect, such as Scrying Pool's 'your choice'. I would not expect that with Scrying Pool I would be able to choose to both topdeck and discard the card.

It would be better of Elder had refered to "effects" than "abilities". It's true that neither of these are strictly defined in Dominion, but they have been used in the rulebooks and sometimes on cards. It's normal to refer to a card's "effects" in plural, for instance its "on-play effects", which would be equivalent to its "on-play ability". So a card has one ability when it's played, which consists of several effects (also called instructions). A card can have another ability as a reaction for instance, which can also consists of several effects.

Elder is clearly refering to effects, following this logic. You choose between several effects.

Choosing a card in the supply is one effect. This applies whether you're playing BoM or Pillage or Workshop. (Workshop tells you to gain a card from Supply, this is a choice.) So this is not a choice between several effects.

Scrying Pool however let's you choose between two effects: discard the card or put it back. If Elder applied to all cards that let you choose between several effects, it would also apply to Scrying Pool. But if course for Scrying Pool it doesn't make a difference. And it seems that Elder only applies to cards that say "choose x".

[Jeebus]

EDIT: Just tested it online. If you choose both options, the client doesn't let you choose to discard first, so you end up discarding the cards. Pretty sure that's wrong.

Is this not just the usual following in order of the options on the card when choosing more than 1 (e.g. Pawn)?

Damn, I had forgotten that "choose" effects are always done in order now. Pawn used to be that you can choose the order, but then it was changed. It rarely matters, so I just forgot about the change.

[ephesos]

Interesting. How does Elder interact with Count? Do I get exactly one additional choice or one choice for the (besides of edge cases) bad effect and one choice for the good effect?

And what about Band of Misfits? Its German translation (Vogelfreie) contains „Wähle eine Aktionskarte aus dem Vorrat“ (“Choose one Action card from the supply”) and would be literally affected by Elder.

There are 2 separate "choose one" parts on Count, they are not related, so I guess you need to choose 2 different positives and 2 different negatives.

Elder says "you may choose an extra (different) option", so you could choose 2 positives and still choose only 1 negative. Or 1 positive and 2 negatives, if that's your kind of thing.

[AJD]

Two additional rulings that you can discover from online:
-If you Elder a Scrap and trash a Curse, you get no bonuses.

I guess I'm missing something, but why does that require a ruling? How could it be thought of differently?

People asked about it on discord! I didn't expect the question either.

I assume the motivation for asking this is, if you trash a Curse, Scrap can be interpreted as having an instruction "Choose 0:", which Elder would bump up to Choose 1.

(I assume Elder does usually work on Scrap, though? Elder / Scrap : Estate --> 3 bonuses?)

[Gubump]

Interesting. How does Elder interact with Count? Do I get exactly one additional choice or one choice for the (besides of edge cases) bad effect and one choice for the good effect?

And what about Band of Misfits? Its German translation (Vogelfreie) contains „Wähle eine Aktionskarte aus dem Vorrat“ (“Choose one Action card from the supply”) and would be literally affected by Elder.

There are 2 separate "choose one" parts on Count, they are not related, so I guess you need to choose 2 different positives and 2 different negatives.

It's optional; you can Elder a Count and take an extra good thing but not an extra bad thing.

[Jeebus]

Two additional rulings that you can discover from online:
-If you Elder a Scrap and trash a Curse, you get no bonuses.

I guess I'm missing something, but why does that require a ruling? How could it be thought of differently?

People asked about it on discord! I didn't expect the question either.

I assume the motivation for asking this is, if you trash a Curse, Scrap can be interpreted as having an instruction "Choose 0:", which Elder would bump up to Choose 1.

(I assume Elder does usually work on Scrap, though? Elder / Scrap : Estate --> 3 bonuses?)

Right, I see now.
Elder + Scrap is an open question. Courtier is functionally the same as Scrap (or it would seem so), and it actually says "choose one", so seems to be covered by Elder. If Scrap is covered too, then it's actually reasonable to think that you get to choose 0. On the other hand, that's not actually a choice.

[LastFootnote]

Two additional rulings that you can discover from online:
-If you Elder a Scrap and trash a Curse, you get no bonuses.

I guess I'm missing something, but why does that require a ruling? How could it be thought of differently?

People asked about it on discord! I didn't expect the question either.

I assume the motivation for asking this is, if you trash a Curse, Scrap can be interpreted as having an instruction "Choose 0:", which Elder would bump up to Choose 1.

(I assume Elder does usually work on Scrap, though? Elder / Scrap : Estate --> 3 bonuses?)

I think the current ruling is that Elder/Scrap on a $0-cost card doesn't give you 1 option, since you technically didn't get a choice of options. In general Elder does work on Scrap and Courtier to give you an extra option, assuming you already got at least one.

[allanfieldhouse]

Even ignoring the craziness of Elder, I really like the design space of these choose-one's. I'm thinking these cards are really going to help smooth out engine play -- especially in the early building stage.

As an example, take Town. Village is often completely useless if it's not drawn with other actions. Same thing for Woodcutter if it IS drawn with other terminals. Well, put them together, and it's almost always useful. And with Elder, it's... a Grand Market Village for $4?

[infangthief]

One interpretation for Elder on Courtier would be:

(Normal Courtier) "For each type it has, choose one:" becomes (with Elder) "For each type it has, {choose one, then you may choose an extra (different) option}".
So:
1 type -> 1 or 2 choices
2 types -> 2, 3 or 4 choices
3 types -> 3-6 choices.

Then it becomes unclear what interaction there is between Courtier's "The choices must be different" and Elder's choices.

[AJD]

As an example, take Town. Village is often completely useless if it's not drawn with other actions. Same thing for Woodcutter if it IS drawn with other terminals. Well, put them together, and it's almost always useful. And with Elder, it's... a Grand Market Village for $4?

Elder ain't special, it's a Grand Market Village with Throne Room too

(Yes, Elder also gives you $2 itself that Throne Room doesn't, I know)

[faust]

Elder's text as written is also weird with replaying... It says when "it" (i.e. the Action card you played with it) gives you a choice of abilities this turn, then we get another option.

But arguably, when I replay the Action card with Royal Carriage or Scepter, "it" gives me again a choice of abilities, so would I be able to choose an extra one again? I assume this is not intended. But then it would be better if Elder didn't refer to "it" (the Action card) and rather to "this" (the playing of the Action card).

[GendoIkari]

I'm actually surprised that Scrap doesn't work with Elder... Or is it that it works as long as Scrap is already giving you at least 1 option; and just doesn't work when it gives you 0 options?

[spineflu]

So is there a list of the cards Elder provides extra choices with, or should I just trawl the template:Navbox cards and figure it out for the wiki?


Today seems to have been the +1 Card and +1 Action day. as always let me know if I missed anything.

[GendoIkari]

Are these the final layouts of the printed cards?
This is the second time I've seen an ally that says "spend a Favor, for.." and that comma is just really bothering me grammatically.

This comma is on all "for" cards; has been since original second-edition (and later set) wordings.

*Edit* Apparently it's not consistent... it's on some "for" cards but not others. Mill has the comma, but Baron and Hamlet don't.

[mxdata]

Two additional rulings that you can discover from online:
-If you Elder a Scrap and trash a Curse, you get no bonuses.

I guess I'm missing something, but why does that require a ruling? How could it be thought of differently?

People asked about it on discord! I didn't expect the question either.

Hunh, I would've assumed you would get a bonus. The way I read it is that you essentially add one to the "Choose X:". Scrapping a Curse normally works out as "Choose 0:" (because Curse is worth $0), which would then become "Choose 1:"