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Author Topic: Allies Preview 2: Split piles  (Read 20786 times)

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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Allies Preview 2: Split piles
« Reply #50 on: March 01, 2022, 11:41:56 pm »
+2

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« Last Edit: March 01, 2022, 11:44:50 pm by Commodore Chuckles »
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Holger

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Re: Allies Preview 2: Split piles
« Reply #51 on: March 02, 2022, 03:46:24 am »
+3

Why isn't Old Map just +2 Cards?  Is only allowing you to discard the first one that important?
Because Fugitive is a $4.5.

I'm not sure how that explains why the two "+1 Card"s on Old Map are split.

The point being that the version phrased like Fugitive would be way too strong for a . Even too strong for a . But it is really surprising to me that moving the 1 draw like that can make it go all the way down to a without being too strong.

Indeed; the chance of the card drawn after the discarding being worse than any of the five cards from which you discard is less than 1/6. And Old Map has the additional bonus of rotating the pile.

I suppose Donald wanted the costs of the split piles to all be in ascending order from $3-$6, and Old Map to go first, so it had to cost $3. And since there's only 4 Old Maps in the pile, they can't dominate the game that much at any price.
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vidicate

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Re: Allies Preview 2: Split piles
« Reply #52 on: March 02, 2022, 03:49:57 am »
+1

is there a subtheme with U / R sifting this time?

and incidentally here's where we're at on the previews countdown, i think. i got the number of boxes for rotate wrong yesterday - shout out to hsypsx in the discord for catching that. Also unless we're Done With Cantrips i think i misunderstood the "+1 Card and +1 Action" wordcount part of the preview, which seems to portend Wild Stuff is coming.


click to enlarge.

And now you've gotten the number of boxes for turn wrong today. Both Allies use it once each, and Voyage uses it twice, for a total of 4 times.

I wasn't sure on the 2nd box check for voyage. From the teaser, it's not clear whether that's purely wordcount, or if it's cards-that-have-the-word.

Without checking, I think it's wordcount.

Even if it was just cards-that-have-the-word, spineflu's count would still be wrong. It would still be 3 today (Voyage, Crafters' Guild, and City-State), not 2.

Also, it can be deduced from the previews and the teaser that it is in fact wordcount. The wordcount for Favor is 33, but there are 9 Liaisons and 23 Allies, for a total of 32 cards that would say Favor. Thus one of those 32 cards must say it twice.

One of the “favor(s)” could be from the new mats. Someone on Reddit mentioned this. (But I agree the teaser was wordcount.)
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Re: Allies Preview 2: Split piles
« Reply #53 on: March 02, 2022, 03:51:55 am »
0

Indeed; the chance of the card drawn after the discarding being worse than any of the five cards from which you discard is less than 1/6. And Old Map has the additional bonus of rotating the pile.

I suppose Donald wanted the costs of the split piles to all be in ascending order from $3-$6, and Old Map to go first, so it had to cost $3. And since there's only 4 Old Maps in the pile, they can't dominate the game that much at any price.

Is the math that straight forward? I mean, Legionary is a much stronger attack than Militia, but they both leave you with 3 cards. The only difference with Legionary is that one of them is random. Isn't that comparable to what Old Map does?

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Re: Allies Preview 2: Split piles
« Reply #54 on: March 02, 2022, 03:53:55 am »
0

So, all three announced victory cards are part of split piles. Meaning a total of twelve physical cards, just like one normal victory card pile.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2022, 08:17:36 am by Oyvind »
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faust

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Re: Allies Preview 2: Split piles
« Reply #55 on: March 02, 2022, 04:01:11 am »
+1

Why isn't Old Map just +2 Cards?  Is only allowing you to discard the first one that important?
Because Fugitive is a $4.5.

I'm not sure how that explains why the two "+1 Card"s on Old Map are split.

The point being that the version phrased like Fugitive would be way too strong for a . Even too strong for a . But it is really surprising to me that moving the 1 draw like that can make it go all the way down to a without being too strong.

Indeed; the chance of the card drawn after the discarding being worse than any of the five cards from which you discard is less than 1/6. And Old Map has the additional bonus of rotating the pile.

I suppose Donald wanted the costs of the split piles to all be in ascending order from $3-$6, and Old Map to go first, so it had to cost $3. And since there's only 4 Old Maps in the pile, they can't dominate the game that much at any price.
Also, you want the top cards of these rotating split piles to be powerful so that the rest of the pile has a good chance of being uncovered.
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AJD

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Re: Allies Preview 2: Split piles
« Reply #56 on: March 02, 2022, 04:14:13 am »
0

So uh, on a Voyage turn, if I play three cards and two of them are Throne Rooms, what happens next? Does Voyage overrule Throne Room's instructions?
If Throne Room is your 3rd played card from your hand you won't be able to play another card from your hand. If Throne Room is the 2nd card you can play your next card twice because the 4th action is not played from your hand... I think
Feels like there's a bunch of rules questions that can be asked here. For instance: If I gain an Action with Artisan and use City-State to play it, have I played it from my hand?

...Is there an official answer to either my question or Faust's yet?
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Holger

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Re: Allies Preview 2: Split piles
« Reply #57 on: March 02, 2022, 04:16:43 am »
0

Indeed; the chance of the card drawn after the discarding being worse than any of the five cards from which you discard is less than 1/6. And Old Map has the additional bonus of rotating the pile.

I suppose Donald wanted the costs of the split piles to all be in ascending order from $3-$6, and Old Map to go first, so it had to cost $3. And since there's only 4 Old Maps in the pile, they can't dominate the game that much at any price.

Is the math that straight forward? I mean, Legionary is a much stronger attack than Militia, but they both leave you with 3 cards. The only difference with Legionary is that one of them is random. Isn't that comparable to what Old Map does?
Yes, but in engine games, there's a big difference between discarding one more card from a 3-card hand (Legionary) or from a 5-card hand (Old Map).
With 4 remaining cards after the discarding, you can almost always keep those cards you need to start the engine. With only 2 remaining cards this is much harder to do, without knowing what card you'll draw afterwards.
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vidicate

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Re: Allies Preview 2: Split piles
« Reply #58 on: March 02, 2022, 06:29:14 am »
0

Indeed; the chance of the card drawn after the discarding being worse than any of the five cards from which you discard is less than 1/6. And Old Map has the additional bonus of rotating the pile.

I suppose Donald wanted the costs of the split piles to all be in ascending order from $3-$6, and Old Map to go first, so it had to cost $3. And since there's only 4 Old Maps in the pile, they can't dominate the game that much at any price.

Is the math that straight forward? I mean, Legionary is a much stronger attack than Militia, but they both leave you with 3 cards. The only difference with Legionary is that one of them is random. Isn't that comparable to what Old Map does?
Yes, but in engine games, there's a big difference between discarding one more card from a 3-card hand (Legionary) or from a 5-card hand (Old Map).
With 4 remaining cards after the discarding, you can almost always keep those cards you need to start the engine. With only 2 remaining cards this is much harder to do, without knowing what card you'll draw afterwards.

They weren’t comparing Legionary to Old Map. They were comparing Legionary to Militia, as an analogy of Old Map vs Fugitive.
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Re: Allies Preview 2: Split piles
« Reply #59 on: March 02, 2022, 06:32:13 am »
0

So, all three announced victory cards are part of split piles. Meaning a total of twelve physical cards, just like one normal victory point pile.

What? Is this a theory of yours? We’ve only see one Victory card previewed so far.
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Oyvind

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Re: Allies Preview 2: Split piles
« Reply #60 on: March 02, 2022, 08:02:39 am »
+2

So, all three announced victory cards are part of split piles. Meaning a total of twelve physical cards, just like one normal victory point pile.

What? Is this a theory of yours? We’ve only see one Victory card previewed so far.

We know that there’s going to be 346 kingdom cards. 31 different kingdom card piles means at least 310 cards, unless we suddenly see a kingdom pile containing less than 10 cards. This means that only 36 cards are left. Of couse, it’s possible that we have an action card with 12 copies, just like Port, or a victory card with 10, but the six announced rotates and the information in this post lead me to believe that we have six split piles in total with 16 cards each, and if so, there’s no room for a regular victory card pile (one containing 12 copies). I don’t know this for sure, but everything seems to add up, so I ventured an informed guess. :)
« Last Edit: March 02, 2022, 09:59:50 am by Oyvind »
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Holger

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Re: Allies Preview 2: Split piles
« Reply #61 on: March 02, 2022, 08:53:27 am »
0

Indeed; the chance of the card drawn after the discarding being worse than any of the five cards from which you discard is less than 1/6. And Old Map has the additional bonus of rotating the pile.

I suppose Donald wanted the costs of the split piles to all be in ascending order from $3-$6, and Old Map to go first, so it had to cost $3. And since there's only 4 Old Maps in the pile, they can't dominate the game that much at any price.

Is the math that straight forward? I mean, Legionary is a much stronger attack than Militia, but they both leave you with 3 cards. The only difference with Legionary is that one of them is random. Isn't that comparable to what Old Map does?
Yes, but in engine games, there's a big difference between discarding one more card from a 3-card hand (Legionary) or from a 5-card hand (Old Map).
With 4 remaining cards after the discarding, you can almost always keep those cards you need to start the engine. With only 2 remaining cards this is much harder to do, without knowing what card you'll draw afterwards.

They weren’t comparing Legionary to Old Map. They were comparing Legionary to Militia, as an analogy of Old Map vs Fugitive.
I know. But my point was that the difference between Legionary and Militia (discarding down to 2 vs. down to 3 cards) is much bigger than the difference between Old Map and Fugitive (discarding down to 4 vs. down to 5 cards). The fewer cards you have in hand to start with, the more it hurts to discard another card.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Allies Preview 2: Split piles
« Reply #62 on: March 02, 2022, 10:29:32 am »
+2

Why isn't Old Map just +2 Cards?  Is only allowing you to discard the first one that important?
Because Fugitive is a $4.5.

I'm not sure how that explains why the two "+1 Card"s on Old Map are split.

The point being that the version phrased like Fugitive would be way too strong for a . Even too strong for a . But it is really surprising to me that moving the 1 draw like that can make it go all the way down to a without being too strong.

Indeed; the chance of the card drawn after the discarding being worse than any of the five cards from which you discard is less than 1/6. And Old Map has the additional bonus of rotating the pile.

I suppose Donald wanted the costs of the split piles to all be in ascending order from $3-$6, and Old Map to go first, so it had to cost $3. And since there's only 4 Old Maps in the pile, they can't dominate the game that much at any price.

For sure, I think having 4 copies instead of 10 copies of a card available should allow it to be more powerful than normal.
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mxdata

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Re: Allies Preview 2: Split piles
« Reply #63 on: March 02, 2022, 01:37:49 pm »
0

So uh, on a Voyage turn, if I play three cards and two of them are Throne Rooms, what happens next? Does Voyage overrule Throne Room's instructions?
If Throne Room is your 3rd played card from your hand you won't be able to play another card from your hand. If Throne Room is the 2nd card you can play your next card twice because the 4th action is not played from your hand... I think
Feels like there's a bunch of rules questions that can be asked here. For instance: If I gain an Action with Artisan and use City-State to play it, have I played it from my hand?

...Is there an official answer to either my question or Faust's yet?

For Faust's question, I think it's pretty straightforward that that is *not* from your hand, because it never entered your hand. Throne Room also sounds straight forward. It's three cards, not three Actions. So, both the Throne Room and the card it's Throning would count as being from your hand
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AJD

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Re: Allies Preview 2: Split piles
« Reply #64 on: March 02, 2022, 01:59:13 pm »
+1

So uh, on a Voyage turn, if I play three cards and two of them are Throne Rooms, what happens next? Does Voyage overrule Throne Room's instructions?
If Throne Room is your 3rd played card from your hand you won't be able to play another card from your hand. If Throne Room is the 2nd card you can play your next card twice because the 4th action is not played from your hand... I think
Feels like there's a bunch of rules questions that can be asked here. For instance: If I gain an Action with Artisan and use City-State to play it, have I played it from my hand?

...Is there an official answer to either my question or Faust's yet?

For Faust's question, I think it's pretty straightforward that that is *not* from your hand, because it never entered your hand.

If you gained it with Artisan, it entered your hand.

Quote
Throne Room also sounds straight forward. It's three cards, not three Actions. So, both the Throne Room and the card it's Throning would count as being from your hand

The question isn't whether it's from your hand. The question is, Voyage says you can't play a fourth card from your hand; but if the third card you play is Throne Room, it says you may play an Action card from your hand (twice). Does Throne Room's explicit "you may" overrule Voyage's instruction that you may not, or vice versa?

(I suspect that Throne Room doesn't overrule Voyage—I don't think Black Market's "you may buy" overrules Mission, either, though I haven't checked—but it's good to have clarity on these things.)
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markus

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Re: Allies Preview 2: Split piles
« Reply #65 on: March 02, 2022, 02:10:52 pm »
0

Voyage overrules Throne Room.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Allies Preview 2: Split piles
« Reply #66 on: March 02, 2022, 02:18:15 pm »
+3

So uh, on a Voyage turn, if I play three cards and two of them are Throne Rooms, what happens next? Does Voyage overrule Throne Room's instructions?
If Throne Room is your 3rd played card from your hand you won't be able to play another card from your hand. If Throne Room is the 2nd card you can play your next card twice because the 4th action is not played from your hand... I think
Feels like there's a bunch of rules questions that can be asked here. For instance: If I gain an Action with Artisan and use City-State to play it, have I played it from my hand?

...Is there an official answer to either my question or Faust's yet?

For Faust's question, I think it's pretty straightforward that that is *not* from your hand, because it never entered your hand.

If you gained it with Artisan, it entered your hand.

Quote
Throne Room also sounds straight forward. It's three cards, not three Actions. So, both the Throne Room and the card it's Throning would count as being from your hand

The question isn't whether it's from your hand. The question is, Voyage says you can't play a fourth card from your hand; but if the third card you play is Throne Room, it says you may play an Action card from your hand (twice). Does Throne Room's explicit "you may" overrule Voyage's instruction that you may not, or vice versa?

(I suspect that Throne Room doesn't overrule Voyage—I don't think Black Market's "you may buy" overrules Mission, either, though I haven't checked—but it's good to have clarity on these things.)

I can't remember which interaction rules question lead to it, but at some point we got official clarification that "can't" overrides "can" or "do".

At the least, this seems to have been obvious since Snowy Village was printed. Without a rule that "can't" wins, then you would have a rules question about what to do when you play Snowy Village followed by Village, because Village says to get +2 actions but Snowy Village says you can't, and which card should you listen to?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2022, 02:21:16 pm by GendoIkari »
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Donald X.

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Re: Allies Preview 2: Split piles
« Reply #67 on: March 02, 2022, 02:31:10 pm »
+4

I can't remember which interaction rules question lead to it, but at some point we got official clarification that "can't" overrides "can" or "do".

At the least, this seems to have been obvious since Snowy Village was printed. Without a rule that "can't" wins, then you would have a rules question about what to do when you play Snowy Village followed by Village, because Village says to get +2 actions but Snowy Village says you can't, and which card should you listen to?
Correct, "can't" wins.

You can dodge this conflict with way more complex wordings on the "can't" cards; it never seems worth it to, people intuit that "can't" will win, since otherwise it wouldn't do anything.
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mxdata

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Re: Allies Preview 2: Split piles
« Reply #68 on: March 02, 2022, 02:57:34 pm »
0

So uh, on a Voyage turn, if I play three cards and two of them are Throne Rooms, what happens next? Does Voyage overrule Throne Room's instructions?
If Throne Room is your 3rd played card from your hand you won't be able to play another card from your hand. If Throne Room is the 2nd card you can play your next card twice because the 4th action is not played from your hand... I think
Feels like there's a bunch of rules questions that can be asked here. For instance: If I gain an Action with Artisan and use City-State to play it, have I played it from my hand?

...Is there an official answer to either my question or Faust's yet?

For Faust's question, I think it's pretty straightforward that that is *not* from your hand, because it never entered your hand.

If you gained it with Artisan, it entered your hand.

Good point. Villa would be a similar situation now that I think about it. So, with normal gaining, it seems straightforward that it wouldn't count towards Voyage's three card limit, but cases like these, I guess it would count as playing from your hand? It's ironic that in this particular case gaining to hand is worse than gaining to your discard pile!
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GendoIkari

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Re: Allies Preview 2: Split piles
« Reply #69 on: March 02, 2022, 03:05:33 pm »
0

It's ironic that in this particular case gaining to hand is worse than gaining to your discard pile!

Not if the card you gained was Golem, and you want to avoid playing that mandatory trasher that Golem finds!
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Re: Allies Preview 2: Split piles
« Reply #70 on: March 02, 2022, 03:59:34 pm »
+1

It's ironic that in this particular case gaining to hand is worse than gaining to your discard pile!

Not if the card you gained was Golem, and you want to avoid playing that mandatory trasher that Golem finds!

Golem doesn't play cards from your hand, though, so you'd still have to play whichever cards Golem reveals
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Re: Allies Preview 2: Split piles
« Reply #71 on: March 02, 2022, 07:05:59 pm »
+1

It's ironic that in this particular case gaining to hand is worse than gaining to your discard pile!

Not if the card you gained was Golem, and you want to avoid playing that mandatory trasher that Golem finds!

Golem doesn't play cards from your hand, though, so you'd still have to play whichever cards Golem reveals

Oops. Should have stuck with my original thinking of Throne Room, but then having to specify first edition Throne Room.
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Re: Allies Preview 2: Split piles
« Reply #72 on: March 03, 2022, 02:56:00 am »
0

So uh, on a Voyage turn, if I play three cards and two of them are Throne Rooms, what happens next? Does Voyage overrule Throne Room's instructions?

voyage is simply an awful card.  I wouldn't buy it at 2.  It's just fucking stupid.  It wants to be a chic outpost, but it's really an outhouse.

If it was u get 3 plays and then the turn ends as normal (and u get to play any accumulated treasure)  then it would be fine.  But the 3 total cards for action/buy phase almost a turn that is almost not worth having save decks that shine with deck shuffling or trying to get to the last curse etc.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2022, 03:05:23 am by Honkeyfresh »
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Re: Allies Preview 2: Split piles
« Reply #73 on: March 03, 2022, 02:59:28 am »
+1

Distant Shore + Shepherd

This is another card that baffles me.  Why do I want a 6 cost lab that clogs my deck with estates!  Like except in edge cases this seems really terrible.  I think if it was only worth 1 vp and the estate was gained to exile instead it would be a much more attractive card, and worth its 6 cost price point.
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Re: Allies Preview 2: Split piles
« Reply #74 on: March 03, 2022, 03:01:27 am »
+1

So uh, on a Voyage turn, if I play three cards and two of them are Throne Rooms, what happens next? Does Voyage overrule Throne Room's instructions?

voyage is simply an awful card.  I wouldn't buy it at 2.  It's just fucking stupid.  It wants to be a chic outpost, but it's really an outhouse.

That's a strong opinion. Have you tried playing or playing against the card though?
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