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Author Topic: Allies Preview 1: Allies  (Read 20172 times)

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faust

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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #50 on: March 03, 2022, 07:40:21 am »
+7

We’ve come a long way. Given Bauble, it’s amazing we would pay 5 for Royal Seal.
Yes, I dare say Bauble compares quite favorably to Royal Seal.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2022, 11:27:45 am by faust »
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mxdata

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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #51 on: March 03, 2022, 10:42:20 am »
0

$2 would definitely be way too cheap for Royal Seal, since that would make it almost strictly better than Silver (barring things like Feodum and Merchant)

$2 for a card-shaped thing whose effect is strictly better than Silver has been in the game and evidently not broken it since Delve.

Is that really relevant? Delve doesn't make Silver irrelevant, but rather leads to it being used more.

Yeah, Delve is just about making Silvers cheaper. There's no difference once they're in your deck between Silvers gained with Delve and Silvers bought in the normal way
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trivialknot

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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2022, 01:11:23 pm »
+2

For fun, I'm going to guess at the power level and implications of these cards--without having played any of them online.  Best to get all my wrong thoughts out before reality has time to correct me.

The fact that Underling costs $3 suggests that a favor is about as valuable as a +Buy or +Action, and somewhat less valuable than a +$1.  Of course, depending on the ally, a favor may be more or less powerful, or maybe Underling itself is just fairly powerful relative to its cost.  Based on the previewed allies, I think Underling may be on the strong side relative to its cost.

Bauble is a copper with a bonus.  It reminds me of Candlestick Maker, or Ducat, but without the trashing or coffers.  It faces the question of why would I want to add a copper to my deck.  Probably not a power house, but if you need buys or favors it's there for you.

Broker is Salvager plus flexibility minus buy.  In the early game you're often not using that buy anyway, and you might prefer the terminal draw over money.  But unless you have a lot of fodder, I think it may not be very strong.  Imagine trashing a silver, netting one extra card, but Broker is terminal and is one extra card really enough to replace what you trashed?

To judge allies, I initially try to imagine how strong they would make Underling, the simplest of the liaisons.

Cave Dwellers makes it roughly the power level of old map--pretty good.

Coastal Haven makes Underling a Haven, except you can keep your favors around until you need them.  I think that's way better than Haven.

Peaceful Cult makes Underling a cantrip trasher.  Obviously very good.

Plateau Shepherds, well that one's hard to judge.  If there's a spammable $2-cost, you might get around ~4 of them, maybe ~2 estates, and that's about the value of two provinces.  I think this isn't ignorable, but neither is it dominating--unless there's a strong synergy somewhere.  What's interesting is that you don't want favors right away, you just want them before the game ends.  It may antisynergize with Underling, since Underling just doesn't have the flexibility to grab a bunch of favors at the end.

League of Bankers is also hard to judge, because it's not directly comparable to anything we've seen.  I might compare it to Canal, which is okay at $7 even when there aren't synergies with cost reduction.  Or maybe think of it like a Peddler that you topdeck every turn.  At only 4 favors and stackable, I think this is very cost effective.  But imagine doing this with just Underlings--you have to play a lot of useless cantrips before seeing returns on your investment.
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Holger

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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2022, 01:49:46 pm »
+1

League of Bankers is also hard to judge, because it's not directly comparable to anything we've seen.  I might compare it to Canal, which is okay at $7 even when there aren't synergies with cost reduction.  Or maybe think of it like a Peddler that you topdeck every turn.  At only 4 favors and stackable, I think this is very cost effective.  But imagine doing this with just Underlings--you have to play a lot of useless cantrips before seeing returns on your investment.

It doesn't take that long: Every fourth play of an Underling gives you a "permanent Treasury". I've played a bot game with Underling, Broker (I think) and Bankers, and reached about 32 favours near the end - i.e. a free Province each turn. :)
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mandioca15

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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2022, 06:30:22 am »
+1

When scoring with Plateau Shepherds, are cost reductions taken into account, or is it just the static cost of the cards? For example, if you had bought Canal, would Silvers cost $2 or $3 when scoring?
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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2022, 07:03:44 am »
+3

When scoring with Plateau Shepherds, are cost reductions taken into account, or is it just the static cost of the cards? For example, if you had bought Canal, would Silvers cost $2 or $3 when scoring?

it's not your turn while scoring, so no. the -cost token doesn't apply either, for the same reason.
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BraydonM

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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2022, 10:15:58 am »
0

For fun, I'm going to guess at the power level and implications of these cards--without having played any of them online.  Best to get all my wrong thoughts out before reality has time to correct me.

The fact that Underling costs $3 suggests that a favor is about as valuable as a +Buy or +Action, and somewhat less valuable than a +$1.  Of course, depending on the ally, a favor may be more or less powerful, or maybe Underling itself is just fairly powerful relative to its cost.  Based on the previewed allies, I think Underling may be on the strong side relative to its cost.

Bauble is a copper with a bonus.  It reminds me of Candlestick Maker, or Ducat, but without the trashing or coffers.  It faces the question of why would I want to add a copper to my deck.  Probably not a power house, but if you need buys or favors it's there for you.

Broker is Salvager plus flexibility minus buy.  In the early game you're often not using that buy anyway, and you might prefer the terminal draw over money.  But unless you have a lot of fodder, I think it may not be very strong.  Imagine trashing a silver, netting one extra card, but Broker is terminal and is one extra card really enough to replace what you trashed?

To judge allies, I initially try to imagine how strong they would make Underling, the simplest of the liaisons.

Cave Dwellers makes it roughly the power level of old map--pretty good.

Coastal Haven makes Underling a Haven, except you can keep your favors around until you need them.  I think that's way better than Haven.

Peaceful Cult makes Underling a cantrip trasher.  Obviously very good.

Plateau Shepherds, well that one's hard to judge.  If there's a spammable $2-cost, you might get around ~4 of them, maybe ~2 estates, and that's about the value of two provinces.  I think this isn't ignorable, but neither is it dominating--unless there's a strong synergy somewhere.  What's interesting is that you don't want favors right away, you just want them before the game ends.  It may antisynergize with Underling, since Underling just doesn't have the flexibility to grab a bunch of favors at the end.

League of Bankers is also hard to judge, because it's not directly comparable to anything we've seen.  I might compare it to Canal, which is okay at $7 even when there aren't synergies with cost reduction.  Or maybe think of it like a Peddler that you topdeck every turn.  At only 4 favors and stackable, I think this is very cost effective.  But imagine doing this with just Underlings--you have to play a lot of useless cantrips before seeing returns on your investment.

I appreciate the attempt but from playing the previews this is just wrong in a lot of cases. Underling is often the worst of the 3 of the first group of liaisons. Where underling shines the most is with league of bankers where it can quickly become a significant gold boost. Bauble is very strong and largely because of the top decking which you aren’t really counting. Tracker is decently powerful but compared to bauble it is a terminal action just to gain a boon. Obviously in certain combos or with a lucky wisp early it can beat bauble but in most cases this is an improved tracker that also has the advantage of modality which you are also ignoring despite it being a huge benefit. Every game I am using the top decking because getting your good cards faster is a huge advantage. Bauble is good even without a solid ally and with a solid ally it can be vastly superior to ducat or supplies both of which are bought consistently on boards they appear on. Cult makes it a trashing treasure, others allow you to gain, and Shepherds plateau makes it game defining. The Plateau Shepherds + bauble combo is very noteworthy because it will take over like groom and a cheap green in supply but is likely to happen more often due to the fact that a liaison creates an ally. It is not quite as powerful but nobody going for province has beat it in several games I played with it. You do need one other card which is either a 2 or something that piles fast but past that buying baubles and using those to buy more two can get you 2 cards most turns and they create favors to bring that up to 4 points a turn starting very early. It works great with any other 2 in supply, gardens, or anything that piles early such as stockpile.

Broker is also a very good card. Early it helps hit 5 while getting rid of estates or turns estates into favors which are again very good. Nobody is actually planning on playing it for +cards or actions most boards but when you are near ending and draw it with 4 terminals on a bad shuffle you see that +actions as a mode is a substantial power boost. And of course if there is something like Ill gotten gains you want to gain and lose then it’s amazing.

Edit: One more comparison, bauble is like using way of the seal on a card but without needing the action. Comparing it to any top decking in the game it stacks up great.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2022, 10:42:29 am by BraydonM »
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