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Author Topic: Allies Preview 1: Allies  (Read 20175 times)

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Davio

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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2022, 01:14:12 pm »
0

Coastal Haven says "when discarding", I guess this is really "when you would discard"? That is to say, you never discard the cards you want to keep, right? So a Tunnel wouldn't trigger, for instance.

Tunnel doesn't trigger during cleanup anyway, right?
Cards that do something when discarded always explicitly specify "other than during Clean-up".
Faithful hound does so as well.

But maybe the wording could have been "Before you discard your hand during Clean-up", but I find the actual wording not too confusing.
The intent of the card is clear, you get to keep some cards instead of discarding them. It's not like you first discard, then trigger this, then have to pull stuff from the discard pile.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2022, 01:16:35 pm by Davio »
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mxdata

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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2022, 01:33:12 pm »
0

skirmisher + invest question: A has invested in skirmisher. B plays skirmisher then buys one.

Does A have to discard down first, or can they choose which order the two effects happen?

I would think that since both are triggered by B gaining the Skirmisher, you get to choose. I can't think of a scenario where the order would be relevant though
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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2022, 01:49:31 pm »
0

skirmisher + invest question: A has invested in skirmisher. B plays skirmisher then buys one.

Does A have to discard down first, or can they choose which order the two effects happen?

I would think that since both are triggered by B gaining the Skirmisher, you get to choose. I can't think of a scenario where the order would be relevant though

by that you mean you'd always choose the larger final handsize?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2022, 01:58:52 pm »
+3

Don't effects from different players always happen in turn order? So the Skirmisher would happen first, because it's B's turn and B's effect. Then A's Invest would happen after that. Net result they end discard down to 3 and then draw 2, for a result of 5 cards in hand.

Now if you managed to both play and gain a Skirmisher during your opponent's turn, then it would be the opposite; your opponent's Invest would trigger first because it is their turn. So they would draw 2 cards, and then your Skirmisher would trigger and they would discard down to 3.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2022, 02:00:15 pm by GendoIkari »
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mxdata

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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2022, 02:14:26 pm »
+1

skirmisher + invest question: A has invested in skirmisher. B plays skirmisher then buys one.

Does A have to discard down first, or can they choose which order the two effects happen?

I would think that since both are triggered by B gaining the Skirmisher, you get to choose. I can't think of a scenario where the order would be relevant though

by that you mean you'd always choose the larger final handsize?

D'oh! Of course. For some reason I was mixing up Invest and Camel Train and just thinking it was about discarding your Exiled Skirmisher. Yes, you're completely right, there would be a difference in final handsize depending on the order, so obviously you'd want to resolve Skirmisher before Invest
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Jeebus

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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2022, 02:31:07 pm »
0

Coastal Haven says "when discarding", I guess this is really "when you would discard"? That is to say, you never discard the cards you want to keep, right? So a Tunnel wouldn't trigger, for instance.

Right, I read it not as when taking any particular action, but rather simply during the part of the clean-up phase when discarding your cards is generally happening. So not your standard action-based trigger, but rather just a description of which part of the turn you are doing the thing in. Just like how Flag is referring to the general time that you are drawing cards during cleanup; not reacting to a specific "you have now drawn your new hand" or "you would be drawing your new hand right now".

(Obviously Tunnel was wrong, but let's say Capital.)

I assume Flag and Expedition trigger at a specific time and that you can order them. I don't think that matters now, but if something (other than Star Chart, Stash and you -1 Card token) were to trigger then, it could potentially matter. I also assume that they trigger after you have drawn your normal hand in Clean-up. Although, Flag is the only one that suggests this from the text ("When drawing your hand, +1 Card", "when" normally meaning "after"). Expedition says "for your next hand" instead, just like Outpost. But if Expedition is timed like Outpost, a Possessing player should be able to choose Outpost last, making it 3 cards total instead of 4 (highly academic of course, since it's just a matter of not buying Expedition at all).

Jeebus

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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2022, 02:33:32 pm »
+1

Don't effects from different players always happen in turn order? So the Skirmisher would happen first, because it's B's turn and B's effect. Then A's Invest would happen after that. Net result they end discard down to 3 and then draw 2, for a result of 5 cards in hand.

Now if you managed to both play and gain a Skirmisher during your opponent's turn, then it would be the opposite; your opponent's Invest would trigger first because it is their turn. So they would draw 2 cards, and then your Skirmisher would trigger and they would discard down to 3.

Yes. And "each other player" abilities (like Skirmisher) belong to the player being addressed, B in this case.

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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2022, 03:03:47 pm »
+2

(Obviously Tunnel was wrong, but let's say Capital.)
I don't understand Capital, either, as discarding a Capital from hand doesn't do anything.
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scolapasta

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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2022, 03:06:09 pm »
0

(Obviously Tunnel was wrong, but let's say Capital.)
I don't understand Capital, either, as discarding a Capital from hand doesn't do anything.

Right, but if you don't discard it you don't have to take the debt. So you can just get the $6 that turn with no penalty and then play it again next turn (and repeat, if you have more favors).

Edit: ah right, I also missed the "from hand" part.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2022, 03:13:15 pm by scolapasta »
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Jeebus

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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2022, 03:09:47 pm »
+1

No, Markus is right, I'm confused. Coastal Haven is only about the cards you discard from your hand, and none of those trigger in Clean-up.

BBobb

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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2022, 05:54:50 pm »
+4

Underling seems like it will just depend on the ally in the game, though looking at the current ones it seems pretty solid

Bauble: Seems pretty strong, being able to do a lot of different things. Probably most engines will pick up one or two for +Buy

Broker: Salvager was already pretty good in openings, so this seems very good. Probably a top $4 card
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anordinaryman

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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2022, 08:13:29 pm »
+5

Peaceful cultists proxies a trashing token (a common fan-theme invention).

I am wondering if we might see Favors proxy other mechanics? Like Villagers? I would expect it to not be identical to how Villagers work. Maybe something like "At the start of your turn, you may spend a Favor to play an Action card from your hand." Being weaker because you have to make the choice to spend it at start of turn.
Or "At the start of your Buy phase, you may spend a Favor to play an Action card from your hand." That one sounds pretty interesting actually though it's even weaker.

We might see Favors proxy Coffers, but it'd have to be new somehow like not triggering 1:1. "At the start of your Buy phase, you may spend 2 favors for +$3." League of Bankers makes me think we might not get one of those, although it's a lot less like Coffers and more like Buying a Treasury.

Underling looks great. Peaceful Cult and Cave Dwellers both make it a pretty strong $3, can't wait to see the other Ally options! I also love Bauble, continues the trend of excellently designed $2-cost treasures. With the current Allies options, I'm pretty happy taking $1 and a Favor for most turns and then using the +Buy only as needed.
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mxdata

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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2022, 08:34:23 pm »
+6

It just occurred to me that Way of the Worm + Plateau Shepherd is likely to be *very* strong, as (assuming you accumulate enough Favors), each Estate is effectively equivalent to a Duchy
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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2022, 09:19:24 pm »
+2

Played a game with Plateau Shepherd and regular Shepherd (and therefore Pasture); that was definitely a strong combo. Especially since the source of Favors was Bauble, another $2 card.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2022, 11:01:23 pm »
+1

Coastal Haven says "when discarding", I guess this is really "when you would discard"? That is to say, you never discard the cards you want to keep, right? So a Tunnel wouldn't trigger, for instance.

Right, I read it not as when taking any particular action, but rather simply during the part of the clean-up phase when discarding your cards is generally happening. So not your standard action-based trigger, but rather just a description of which part of the turn you are doing the thing in. Just like how Flag is referring to the general time that you are drawing cards during cleanup; not reacting to a specific "you have now drawn your new hand" or "you would be drawing your new hand right now".

(Obviously Tunnel was wrong, but let's say Capital.)

I assume Flag and Expedition trigger at a specific time and that you can order them. I don't think that matters now, but if something (other than Star Chart, Stash and you -1 Card token) were to trigger then, it could potentially matter. I also assume that they trigger after you have drawn your normal hand in Clean-up. Although, Flag is the only one that suggests this from the text ("When drawing your hand, +1 Card", "when" normally meaning "after"). Expedition says "for your next hand" instead, just like Outpost. But if Expedition is timed like Outpost, a Possessing player should be able to choose Outpost last, making it 3 cards total instead of 4 (highly academic of course, since it's just a matter of not buying Expedition at all).

The reason I don't interpret Flag and Expedition that way is because they use a present-tense "ing" verb. If it said "when you draw your next hand" then I would interpret it your way, that you draw your next hand and that causes them to trigger. But by saying "when drawing" instead of "when you draw", it seems to me to set up a change to the default rules about how drawing your next hand works this turn.

Outpost seems even more clear on that same point, because it doesn't use "when" language at all. It simple changes the normal rule of "draw 5 cards for your next hand" to "draw 3 cards for your next hand". That rule has been changed the moment you play Outpost; it doesn't wait until cleanup to trigger.
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vidicate

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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2022, 11:03:24 pm »
+5

We’ve come a long way. Given Bauble, it’s amazing we would pay 5 for Royal Seal.
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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2022, 12:34:54 am »
+2

It just occurred to me that Way of the Worm + Plateau Shepherd is likely to be *very* strong, as (assuming you accumulate enough Favors), each Estate is effectively equivalent to a Duchy
I played some preview games and Plateau Shepherds is often extremely powerful when it appears with bauble. Bauble with Plateau Shepard and any other $2 in the supply or any card that tends to empty quick usually can be won just by grabbing as many baubles and then taking the estates and other cards. Between 10 baubles worth 2 and 8 estates worth 3 you can already get almost as many points as all 8 provinces. Throw on another 2 and you can beat an opponent who got all provinces. The crazy thing is bauble gives you buys to buy more baubles and let’s you top deck too so it’s not hard to pull 2 baubles a turn just using baubles. Of course mixing in an occasional draw card helps but on quite a few boards just rushing the baubles is more effective.

And you don’t NEED another two card or even something like stockpile that’s empties early to there pile. I beat an engine that got 7 provs just by buying all the baubles, estates, and a few gardens.

People are underestimating bauble a lot though, it’s not just good it is a top $2. The top decking option basically gives you a better tracker since you don’t have to worry about the action for only a boon more and then it can also switch to a buy as needed. That’s already really good before you get into allies which do things like make it act as a goat, be worth 2vp, and uptick your favors to get you permanent coins at buy phase start. Even the weaker allies are still strong modes when stuck on such a useful card.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2022, 12:38:58 am by BraydonM »
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Jeebus

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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2022, 03:53:00 am »
0


Outpost seems even more clear on that same point, because it doesn't use "when" language at all. It simple changes the normal rule of "draw 5 cards for your next hand" to "draw 3 cards for your next hand". That rule has been changed the moment you play Outpost; it doesn't wait until cleanup to trigger.

Outpost is not "when", and can't be, because after you draw it's too late for it to trigger. Like all cards that set up a later ability, it sets it up when you play it, but it triggers later. That has already been established, since Outpost v.1 needed rules for when its set-up ability had been resolved.

I interpret it as "when you would draw cards in clean-up, draw 3 cards instead". That's really the only time it can trigger. It replaces the normal draw, similar to what Ways do. If there were another card like Otpost, that said 6 cards instead of saying 3 cards, and you played both, you should be able to choose which that triggers (like Ways vs. Enchantress). That's what I meant when I talked about interpreting Expedition like Outpost.

GendoIkari

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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #43 on: March 01, 2022, 10:04:55 am »
0


Outpost seems even more clear on that same point, because it doesn't use "when" language at all. It simple changes the normal rule of "draw 5 cards for your next hand" to "draw 3 cards for your next hand". That rule has been changed the moment you play Outpost; it doesn't wait until cleanup to trigger.

Outpost is not "when", and can't be, because after you draw it's too late for it to trigger. Like all cards that set up a later ability, it sets it up when you play it, but it triggers later. That has already been established, since Outpost v.1 needed rules for when its set-up ability had been resolved.

I interpret it as "when you would draw cards in clean-up, draw 3 cards instead". That's really the only time it can trigger. It replaces the normal draw, similar to what Ways do. If there were another card like Otpost, that said 6 cards instead of saying 3 cards, and you played both, you should be able to choose which that triggers (like Ways vs. Enchantress). That's what I meant when I talked about interpreting Expedition like Outpost.

I just think that if the intent were for it to be "when you would draw", that it would say "when you would draw". But fair point that if a second ability ever existed with the same wording as Outpost, then we would need a new ruling on how they interact together; because under my model there would be no way to resolve the conflict within the existing rules, while under your model the existing rules already tell you what to do.
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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2022, 10:17:30 am »
+1

Out of curiosity, why did you make the limit of one Ally a hard rule rather than recommendation? It's not a complaint (indeed, I feel like the limit of one way and two total landscapes should also have been hard limits)
Obv. players can do whatever they want. I like to not overwhelm people with stuff on the table; one Ally is plenty. And then I didn't have to worry about how the cards worked with more than one Ally.

Extra complexity always sounds fun, but then you lose the game because you overlooked something simple. You swear it won't happen again, but it always does. Dominion veterans can handle a little more complexity but the game is already very rich and complexity increases with every expansion. Why punish the beginners and the people who understandably think they can handle more complexity than they really can?

I haven't played online in a long time, so maybe they're ahead of me, but it'd be fun to see a "Wild Mode" where these sorts of restrictions are lifted. But you'd really have to design the UI to discourage people from using it as the default.
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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #45 on: March 01, 2022, 02:02:43 pm »
+1

We’ve come a long way. Given Bauble, it’s amazing we would pay 5 for Royal Seal.

Who knew the right cost for Royal Seal was $2?
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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2022, 12:54:10 am »
+1

We’ve come a long way. Given Bauble, it’s amazing we would pay 5 for Royal Seal.

Who knew the right cost for Royal Seal was $2?

$2 would definitely be way too cheap for Royal Seal, since that would make it almost strictly better than Silver (barring things like Feodum and Merchant)
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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2022, 10:49:08 am »
+1

$2 would definitely be way too cheap for Royal Seal, since that would make it almost strictly better than Silver (barring things like Feodum and Merchant)

$2 for a card-shaped thing whose effect is strictly better than Silver has been in the game and evidently not broken it since Delve.
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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2022, 12:48:13 pm »
+2

$2 would definitely be way too cheap for Royal Seal, since that would make it almost strictly better than Silver (barring things like Feodum and Merchant)

$2 for a card-shaped thing whose effect is strictly better than Silver has been in the game and evidently not broken it since Delve.

Is that really relevant? Delve doesn't make Silver irrelevant, but rather leads to it being used more.
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Re: Allies Preview 1: Allies
« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2022, 01:47:10 pm »
+3

$2 would definitely be way too cheap for Royal Seal, since that would make it almost strictly better than Silver (barring things like Feodum and Merchant)

$2 for a card-shaped thing whose effect is strictly better than Silver has been in the game and evidently not broken it since Delve.
The key problem with a treasure that's Silver with a bonus for $2-$4 is that the pile runs out automatically. This isn't an issue with Delve.
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