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Author Topic: Gatekeeper exiled Experiment  (Read 1194 times)

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DaveS

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Gatekeeper exiled Experiment
« on: January 26, 2022, 07:04:49 pm »
+1

Sorry folks got another one:

The Short:
Can the exile mat effect trigger more than once per gain?

The Long:
- an Experiment is already exiled
- opponent Gatekeeper in play
- gain Experiment, E1, which leads to gain of second Experiment, E2

Gain effects from the Exile Mat and E1 trigger. Gatekeeper does not trigger on E1 gain since an Experiment is exiled and is resolved for THIS gain. Choose Exile Mat effect first, and clear exile mat. Then E1 effect leads to E2 gain. Gatekeeper does trigger on E2 gain (since no Experiment is currently exiled). Gatekeeper exiles E2. Gain effects on E2 gain are done, so back to gain effects on E1. Can you now discard E2 since E2 is an "other copy" of E1? I think not but not sure why. Is it because the effect is on the mat (not the exiled cards) and that effect is already resolved? Is it a general rule that an effect from some effect producing thing can never execute more than once per event?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2022, 07:05:59 pm by DaveS »
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Erick648

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Re: Gatekeeper exiled Experiment
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2022, 08:43:50 pm »
+2

Sorry folks got another one:

The Short:
Can the exile mat effect trigger more than once per gain?

The Long:
- an Experiment is already exiled
- opponent Gatekeeper in play
- gain Experiment, E1, which leads to gain of second Experiment, E2

Gain effects from the Exile Mat and E1 trigger. Gatekeeper does not trigger on E1 gain since an Experiment is exiled and is resolved for THIS gain. Choose Exile Mat effect first, and clear exile mat. Then E1 effect leads to E2 gain. Gatekeeper does trigger on E2 gain (since no Experiment is currently exiled). Gatekeeper exiles E2. Gain effects on E2 gain are done, so back to gain effects on E1. Can you now discard E2 since E2 is an "other copy" of E1? I think not but not sure why. Is it because the effect is on the mat (not the exiled cards) and that effect is already resolved? Is it a general rule that an effect from some effect producing thing can never execute more than once per event?
Couldn’t you just choose to resolve Gatekeeper before the Exile Mat, leading to the result that neither Experiment winds up exiled, which I think is also the intuitive result that most players would go with since that’s what would happen if you gained the Experiments separately instead of nesting the on-gain effects.  I think most players who have played with Gatekeeper and seen how gaining duplicates negates it would assume that two-for-one cards like Experiment and Port are effectively immune outside of unusual circumstances (e.g. if there’s only one left), and unless you go step-by-step and blunder your choice of effect order, they’d be right.

I suppose it might affect how the online implementation should be programmed, although I hope that follows the intuitive results since it would be a minor trap otherwise.
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DaveS

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Re: Gatekeeper exiled Experiment
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2022, 05:51:33 pm »
0

Couldn’t you just choose to resolve Gatekeeper before the Exile Mat,

I think you mean resolve E1's "gain this" effect first, before the exile mat effect. If you do that, the Gatekeeper never triggers at all.
But regardless I'm making my own app to play (and learn) and so this is more a rules question, than a strategy question.
I get your point about preferring that the order not matter, but I suspect it does.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2022, 05:53:26 pm by DaveS »
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ephesos

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Re: Gatekeeper exiled Experiment
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2022, 06:19:57 pm »
+1

I'd take a look at this wiki page: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Triggered_effects

In short, when you gain a card, you look at the list of triggers, choose an order to process them in, and then follow that order. So, at the time you gain E1, the triggers are "Exile mat: you may discard E0" and "Experiment: gain E2". Importantly, you do not add any more triggers to this list after it's determined.

Let's say you choose to resolve them in the order "you may discard E0", then "gain E2". Against better judgement, you choose to discard E0 from the Exile mat. Then, you gain E2. Once you gain E2, it triggers Gatekeeper (and nothing else, since E0 and E1 aren't on your Exile mat). So you exile E2. You already made the list of triggers for gaining E1, and at the time, E2 wasn't on your Exile mat. So you do not discard E2.

Now, why can't you add triggers after the list of triggers has been determined? Well, it would have some weird consequences. For instance, let's say you gained a regular Village with Gatekeeper in play. Gatekeeper triggers, putting it on the Exile mat. If you could keep adding triggers, you could then say "Look, a Village is on my Exile mat, and I'm gaining a Village, so let me just discard this exiled Village here." And so that's why you can't do that.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2022, 06:21:26 pm by ephesos »
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DaveS

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Re: Gatekeeper exiled Experiment
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2022, 11:14:29 pm »
+1

My understanding is a bit different.  I don't think your explanation accounts for Sheepdog drawing another Sheepdog. Sheepdog #2 also triggers even though it wasn't in hand when the gain occurred.

The way it was explained to me recently is that the trigger itself is fixed but new abilities can appear and become executable. Any available abilities that fail to trigger are ignored and resolved (without execution of course) and since the exile mat ability is always available, it gets one shot at the beginning. Anything that later lands on the exile mat during resolution of that gain is too late for exile mat to become triggered.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2022, 11:16:46 pm by DaveS »
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Jeebus

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Re: Gatekeeper exiled Experiment
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2022, 09:42:07 am »
0

I'd take a look at this wiki page: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Triggered_effects

In short, when you gain a card, you look at the list of triggers, choose an order to process them in, and then follow that order. So, at the time you gain E1, the triggers are "Exile mat: you may discard E0" and "Experiment: gain E2". Importantly, you do not add any more triggers to this list after it's determined.

Let's say you choose to resolve them in the order "you may discard E0", then "gain E2". Against better judgement, you choose to discard E0 from the Exile mat. Then, you gain E2. Once you gain E2, it triggers Gatekeeper (and nothing else, since E0 and E1 aren't on your Exile mat). So you exile E2. You already made the list of triggers for gaining E1, and at the time, E2 wasn't on your Exile mat. So you do not discard E2.

Your understanding is not correct. You keep adding things to the list that trigger off gaining the card.

This goes back to Secret Chamber (replaced by Diplomat) drawing a Moat. They both trigger off an Attack being played. Several scenarios have come up over the years. For instance, a Ratcatcher or Hireling played at the beginning of your turn is added to the already-made list of start-of-turn abilities. Or, trashing a Cultist, discarding Market Square as a when-trash ability, then drawing 2 cards from the Cultist when-trash ability, thereby drawing another Market Square (or even the same one if it was just shuffled in!) - you can now react with the drawn Market Square.

Now, why can't you add triggers after the list of triggers has been determined? Well, it would have some weird consequences. For instance, let's say you gained a regular Village with Gatekeeper in play. Gatekeeper triggers, putting it on the Exile mat. If you could keep adding triggers, you could then say "Look, a Village is on my Exile mat, and I'm gaining a Village, so let me just discard this exiled Village here." And so that's why you can't do that.

You're right that that would happen, if the Exile mat didn't have the "all other copies" clause. That's exactly why it has that clause.

Jeebus

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Re: Gatekeeper exiled Experiment
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2022, 10:16:49 am »
0

Couldn’t you just choose to resolve Gatekeeper before the Exile Mat, leading to the result that neither Experiment winds up exiled, which I think is also the intuitive result that most players would go with since that’s what would happen if you gained the Experiments separately instead of nesting the on-gain effects

Unless I'm mistaken, there's a difference. Yes, if you resolve E1's gain ability first, you end up with neither Experiment being exiled, but the existing one (E0) is still on the Exile mat. If the Exile mat can trigger more than once, like DaveS is suggesting, you could end up with none of the three Experiments in Exile.

***

Regarding the original question, I think it's a very good one. I've been wondering about this myself, but haven't thought up a relevant scenario.

Since Dominion is using a model where things that didn't trigger originally, trigger when the conditions change to being favorable, I don't see why the Exile mat wouldn't trigger again in this scenario.

If the model was that triggering happened just once, the Exile mat would not trigger again. This would mean that Reactions and Reserves work like today, because they trigger although they are not in your hand or on your Tavern mat, so when then move there they can be resolved. But the actual model additionally means that a played Hireling also triggers at start of turn, and a Goons that enters play as part of resolving when-buy abilities also triggers for buying the card, etc. So to me it seems that this would mean that things can trigger several times. But only Donald can answer this definitely.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2022, 12:45:15 pm by Jeebus »
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Ingix

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Re: Gatekeeper exiled Experiment
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2022, 03:43:47 am »
+3

I think there is difference to Jeebus' examples and those from DaveS.

In Jeebus' examples it was always additional effects that created (in case of Hireling) or made applicable (in case of Goons) triggered abilities that apply to an event to which triggers are currently handled. That is not the case for DaveS' example. There is no "new" Exile mat, or exile mat ability. The exile mat was there the whole time and it didn't have a triggered ability created or removed.

So to me the idea to apply the exile mat ability again is the same as applying any other "non-new, non-changed" triggered ability again. I played a Livery, then gain a Gold. I get one Horse from Livery, not more because I'd like to apply Livery's ability again. That in DaveS's example the circumstances changed such that applying the ability again would have a different effect is IMO no reason to allow anything special here.
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Jeebus

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Re: Gatekeeper exiled Experiment
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2022, 06:16:56 am »
0

I think there is difference to Jeebus' examples and those from DaveS.

In Jeebus' examples it was always additional effects that created (in case of Hireling) or made applicable (in case of Goons) triggered abilities that apply to an event to which triggers are currently handled. That is not the case for DaveS' example. There is no "new" Exile mat, or exile mat ability. The exile mat was there the whole time and it didn't have a triggered ability created or removed.

So to me the idea to apply the exile mat ability again is the same as applying any other "non-new, non-changed" triggered ability again. I played a Livery, then gain a Gold. I get one Horse from Livery, not more because I'd like to apply Livery's ability again. That in DaveS's example the circumstances changed such that applying the ability again would have a different effect is IMO no reason to allow anything special here.

Yes, in thinking about this more, I think you're right.

Of course, I knew that this is not the exact same thing as the Hireling or Goons scenario, that's why I said only Donald can answer. But it seemed to me that it was suggested from the known rules. However, now I think I was wrong.

So yes, it's the same as "why can't I just get infinite VP tokens when I buy a card with a Goons i play?". Because each ability only triggers once. (Reactions in your hand is an exception: You can resolve each of them several times.)
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