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Author Topic: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn  (Read 4572 times)

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DaveS

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Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« on: December 26, 2021, 07:45:29 pm »
+3

If you gained a card on someone else's turn that triggers your Sheepdog (or Falconer) and you play Sheepdog with Way of the Seal, can you then use WotSeal's top deck ability on any future cards you gain during that same player's turn?  How about top decking the gained card that allowed you to play the Way of the Seal?

Scenario:
P1's turn:
...
P1 plays Witch
   P2 gains Curse, plays Sheepdog as Way of the Seal (+$1 is useless)
   Can P2 top deck the Curse here since he/she has added a gain effect WHILE resolving his/her gain effects?
P1 plays Swindler
   P2 trashes Gold and gains Gold.
   P2 puts that Gold on deck via WotSeal gain effect
...
P1's turn ends
P2's WotSeal gain effect (from the Sheepdog play) is no longer triggerable

P2's turn: (starts with zero Treasure as always.)
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mxdata

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Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2021, 01:57:11 am »
+1

If you gained a card on someone else's turn that triggers your Sheepdog (or Falconer) and you play Sheepdog with Way of the Seal, can you then use WotSeal's top deck ability on any future cards you gain during that same player's turn?  How about top decking the gained card that allowed you to play the Way of the Seal?

Scenario:
P1's turn:
...
P1 plays Witch
   P2 gains Curse, plays Sheepdog as Way of the Seal (+$1 is useless)
   Can P2 top deck the Curse here since he/she has added a gain effect WHILE resolving his/her gain effects?
P1 plays Swindler
   P2 trashes Gold and gains Gold.
   P2 puts that Gold on deck via WotSeal gain effect
...
P1's turn ends
P2's WotSeal gain effect (from the Sheepdog play) is no longer triggerable

P2's turn: (starts with zero Treasure as always.)

No. Because you gained those cards before playing Way of the Seal. Anything gained after that point can be topdecked (for example, if your opponent played a second Witch, or had Throned their Witch), but it wouldn't have a retroactive effect
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DaveS

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Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2021, 04:09:20 pm »
+4

No. Because you gained those cards before playing Way of the Seal. Anything gained after that point can be topdecked (for example, if your opponent played a second Witch, or had Throned their Witch), but it wouldn't have a retroactive effect

Thanks for the reply mxdata. I would agree with you except that I'm not seeing how this would differ from a triggered Sheepdog drawing another Sheepdog. The drawn Sheepdog also has its gain effect triggered even though it wasn't even in hand when the gain occurred. I get that this was just a rule to avoid the problem that a player could lie about whether the 2nd Sheepdog was already in hand or not... and that problem does not exist here. But what condition would allow the triggering of the drawn Sheepdog's gain effect while disallowing the Sheepdog/WotSeal's gain effect?
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DaveS

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Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2021, 04:30:56 pm »
0

This post seems to agree that the first played WotSeal can top deck the gained card:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12757.msg857344#msg857344
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GendoIkari

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Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2021, 05:14:41 pm »
0

I would think it would be the same as Priest; if trashing a card lets you play a card due to some “when you trash a card” stuff and you play Priest; you don’t get the benefit from Priest I don’t think. The only difference is that Priest says “ For the rest of this turn” and Seal says “this turn”.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2021, 05:18:40 pm by GendoIkari »
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dz

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Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2021, 06:05:47 pm »
+1

You can generate this scenario another way. Gain a Livery, play it with Innovation. You don’t get a Horse. Livery says “this turn,” which means “cards gained from now on,” and it can’t see any cards gained previously (including itself).

Using Innovation on Duplicate allows you to call Duplicate. That’s an exercise for the reader. Hint: Duplicate has an implicit “while this is on your Tavern mat,” because it’s a requirement to call it.

Sheepdog works differently because it’s in your hand and doesn’t have a scope like Livery or Seal.
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DaveS

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Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2021, 06:35:18 pm »
0

I would think it would be the same as Priest; if trashing a card lets you play a card due to some “when you trash a card” stuff and you play Priest; you don’t get the benefit from Priest I don’t think. The only difference is that Priest says “ For the rest of this turn” and Seal says “this turn”.

Hi GendoIkari,
I agree you don't get the Priest benefit in your scenario but I'm thinking that's because Priest has its own built in wall from reaping its own benefit: you FULLY resolve the "Trash a card" Priest itself does, THEN you set up the +$2 for any future "trash a card".
« Last Edit: December 28, 2021, 06:38:17 pm by DaveS »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2021, 07:16:34 pm »
0

I would think it would be the same as Priest; if trashing a card lets you play a card due to some “when you trash a card” stuff and you play Priest; you don’t get the benefit from Priest I don’t think. The only difference is that Priest says “ For the rest of this turn” and Seal says “this turn”.

Hi GendoIkari,
I agree you don't get the Priest benefit in your scenario but I'm thinking that's because Priest has its own built in wall from reaping its own benefit: you FULLY resolve the "Trash a card" Priest itself does, THEN you set up the +$2 for any future "trash a card".

No, to be clear I was talking about trashing a card some other way before playing a Priest. So the priest would get played while you are still resolving other “when you trash” effects from trashing a card. The card you trash when you play Priest would be separate and unrelated to the scenario.
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DaveS

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Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2021, 02:09:43 pm »
0

No, to be clear I was talking about trashing a card some other way before playing a Priest. So the priest would get played while you are still resolving other “when you trash” effects from trashing a card. The card you trash when you play Priest would be separate and unrelated to the scenario.

Oh, I see what you mean now: 
1. Trash a card,  T1
2. While resolving trash effects on T1, somehow a Priest is played. Resolve the Priest play (including any trash effects it generates and THEN setup its trashing bonus)
3. Continue resolving trash effects on T1.

At no time is Priest's +$2 awarded for the trashing of T1. (But any new trashing in step 3 until end of turn would be awarded +$2)

Is there anything out there to test these scenarios? Also wondering how to design the algorithm to allow the Sheepdog drawing Sheepdog case but not these other cases.
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Ingix

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Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2021, 01:13:43 am »
+2

Is there anything out there to test these scenarios? Also wondering how to design the algorithm to allow the Sheepdog drawing Sheepdog case but not these other cases.

Most people will use dominion.games as their reference. Though in this case, it gets it wrong. I tested Forager trashing card, discarding Market Square to gain Gold, play Sheepdog off the gain using Way of the Mouse as Vassal, playing Priest. Priest gives you +$2 for the Forager trashing.

The reason is that in the beginning the emphasis was put on the "opposite direction", cases with Sheepdog drawing Sheepdog, or cards that have "While this is in play" triggered abilities where this kind of counterintuitive trick is supposed to work. For example, with one Haggler in play, you can buy a Gold. This allows you to use the Haggler to gain a cheaper card, say... a Haggler! If you have Innovation in play, you may be able to play it, right now. You are now supposed to get another card cheaper than Gold for the "new" Haggler. That's something many people would not guess immediately.

So in my view, the situation is "not neat". You have the Reactions cards you play (or reveal) from hand, where (in some sense) you have to allow a Sheepdog drawn from a triggered Sheepdog to be also played, because often other players can't know if you just drew it or not. It's different for "all in the open" cards like Haggler + Innovation and Livery + Innovation. That these combos work differently (you get to use the second Haggler with the previous buy but don't gain a Horse from Livery's own gain) is "not neat". Neither situation is IMO "natural" or easy to understand. That there are now different rules for these cases I consider unfortunate.

But, I think the distinction between them is clear enough that it can be implemented in dominion.games.
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Jeebus

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Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2021, 05:12:30 pm »
+1

All these scenarious work the same way: When you are in the trigger "window" (when-trash, when-gain etc.), any new thing that gets added will also trigger.

You gain a Curse - you are in the when-gain window for the Curse gain. Are there any when-gain triggers? Yes, Sheepdog. You play Sheepdog using Way of the Seal, adding another when-gain trigger. You are still in the when-gain window for the Curse gain. Now, is there another trigger for that? Yes, the Seal lets you topdeck the Curse. Now, is there another when-gain trigger for the Curse gain? You could now play another Sheepdog for instance. (You could also play this other Sheepdog before topdecking the Curse.)

Gain a Livery - you are in the when-gain window for the Livery. Are there any when-gain triggers? Yes, Innovation lets you play the Livery. Now, are there other when-gain triggers for the Livery gain? Yes, Livery lets you gain a Horse when you gain a card costing $4 or more, so it triggers.
(This doesn't work on dominion.games, which I happened to notice a couple of weeks ago and posted about in their forum.)

Trash a card - you are in the when-trash window. A when-trash ability lets you play a Priest. Now, are there other when-trash triggers for the card you trashed? Yes, Priest gives you +$2.
So if dominion.games does this, it's working correctly.

So the situation is indeed consistent and "neat". There are not different rules for different cards.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2021, 05:14:48 pm by Jeebus »
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dz

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Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2021, 06:53:50 pm »
0

Gain a Livery - you are in the when-gain window for the Livery. Are there any when-gain triggers? Yes, Innovation lets you play the Livery. Now, are there other when-gain triggers for the Livery gain? Yes, Livery lets you gain a Horse when you gain a card costing $4 or more, so it triggers.
(This doesn't work on dominion.games, which I happened to notice a couple of weeks ago and posted about in their forum.)

It's true that this doesn't work on dominion.games. By coincidence, that's the official Donald X ruling: Livery cannot see gains before it was played. (If you're not on discord, you're just going to have to trust me on this one.)

Quote from: Donald X. link=https://discord.com/channels/212660788786102272/285903840660946954/835298129809113108
You should not get a horse from "gain Livery, Innovate to play it."

When this came up before, after whatever discussion where I bet I listened to what people argued, I concluded that Livery is different because of the "this turn" phrasing. It functions for the rest of the turn, starting then. It looks for gains, and its gain happened already.

Oh while you're updating rulings, here's another.

Quote from: Donald X link=https://discord.com/channels/212660788786102272/285903840660946954/806965177475661854
I mean when does Merchant happen? It happens when you play a Silver. What's its scope? The rest of this turn.

So if playing a Silver triggers Merchant showing up, it didn't get its rule in in time and so no +$1. (and not later in the turn either, which should already be true if you just play a Silver to Storyteller and then play a Merchant)
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GendoIkari

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Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2021, 07:45:23 pm »
0

Gain a Livery - you are in the when-gain window for the Livery. Are there any when-gain triggers? Yes, Innovation lets you play the Livery. Now, are there other when-gain triggers for the Livery gain? Yes, Livery lets you gain a Horse when you gain a card costing $4 or more, so it triggers.
(This doesn't work on dominion.games, which I happened to notice a couple of weeks ago and posted about in their forum.)

It's true that this doesn't work on dominion.games. By coincidence, that's the official Donald X ruling: Livery cannot see gains before it was played. (If you're not on discord, you're just going to have to trust me on this one.)

Quote from: Donald X. link=https://discord.com/channels/212660788786102272/285903840660946954/835298129809113108
You should not get a horse from "gain Livery, Innovate to play it."

When this came up before, after whatever discussion where I bet I listened to what people argued, I concluded that Livery is different because of the "this turn" phrasing. It functions for the rest of the turn, starting then. It looks for gains, and its gain happened already.

Oh while you're updating rulings, here's another.

Quote from: Donald X link=https://discord.com/channels/212660788786102272/285903840660946954/806965177475661854
I mean when does Merchant happen? It happens when you play a Silver. What's its scope? The rest of this turn.

So if playing a Silver triggers Merchant showing up, it didn't get its rule in in time and so no +$1. (and not later in the turn either, which should already be true if you just play a Silver to Storyteller and then play a Merchant)

Interesting. This is consistent with the general rule that Jeebus referred to as long as you consider “this turn, when you gain” to be a limitation on the gain in the same way that “when you gain a Silver” would be. So you are still in the “when you gain” window for gaining a Curse, however that gain doesn’t meet the requirements of Way of the Seal, because Seal only triggers on gains that happened “this turn” (and “this turn” is interpreted as “from now until the end of the turn”).
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Jeebus

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Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2021, 11:16:24 pm »
0

Gain a Livery - you are in the when-gain window for the Livery. Are there any when-gain triggers? Yes, Innovation lets you play the Livery. Now, are there other when-gain triggers for the Livery gain? Yes, Livery lets you gain a Horse when you gain a card costing $4 or more, so it triggers.
(This doesn't work on dominion.games, which I happened to notice a couple of weeks ago and posted about in their forum.)

It's true that this doesn't work on dominion.games. By coincidence, that's the official Donald X ruling: Livery cannot see gains before it was played. (If you're not on discord, you're just going to have to trust me on this one.)

Quote from: Donald X. link=https://discord.com/channels/212660788786102272/285903840660946954/835298129809113108
You should not get a horse from "gain Livery, Innovate to play it."

When this came up before, after whatever discussion where I bet I listened to what people argued, I concluded that Livery is different because of the "this turn" phrasing. It functions for the rest of the turn, starting then. It looks for gains, and its gain happened already.

Oh while you're updating rulings, here's another.

Quote from: Donald X link=https://discord.com/channels/212660788786102272/285903840660946954/806965177475661854
I mean when does Merchant happen? It happens when you play a Silver. What's its scope? The rest of this turn.

So if playing a Silver triggers Merchant showing up, it didn't get its rule in in time and so no +$1. (and not later in the turn either, which should already be true if you just play a Silver to Storyteller and then play a Merchant)

Well, that is very unfortunate, since Donald has already ruled in this forum that Merchant does give +$1 in this scenario.

Also, I don't see how this changed ruling is consistent with the ruling that Haggler, Goons and other "while in play" abilities trigger when they are played after the bought card was bought. Unfortunately this makes the Dominion rules more confusing and inconsistent.

EDIT: I see now that I'm agreeing with what Ingix expressed above regarding the unfortunate inconsistencies.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2021, 01:37:52 pm by Jeebus »
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dz

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Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2021, 12:51:59 am »
0

Here's my explanation. I don't know if it'll help anyone understand things better, but maybe.

It may help to imagine that Duplicate and Sheepdog have an implicit "while they're in a certain zone" in their text, because how else are you using that ability. So these two technically have the following text:

Sheepdog:
+2 Cards
While this is in your hand, when you gain a card, you may play this from your hand.

Duplicate:
Put this on your Tavern mat.
While this is on your Tavern mat, when you gain a card costing 6 or more, you may call this, to gain a copy of that card.

These cards basically work the same way as Groundskeeper and friends. The only requirements are A) they're in a certain zone, and B) you gained a card. (Ok Groundskeeper and Duplicate has other requirements for the gained card but whatever.) So if you gain a Duplicate and Innovate it, both conditions are met, so you can call it.

Livery has a different requirement though. Instead of being in a certain zone, the card needs to be gained after the ability has resolved. Is that clear from the wording? I dunno, that's subjective. No casual player is coming across these Innovation edge cases anytime soon. Anyways it's what Donald X. has ruled. So if you Innovate a Livery, it fails the condition and doesn't gain anything.

Oh yeah there's another case: playing Hireling at the start of your turn. It has "for the rest of the game." So why does that work, and Livery doesn't?

Quote from: Donald X. link=https://discord.com/channels/212660788786102272/285903840660946954/835428288503349259
"For the rest of the game, at the start of each of your turns" matches Livery, in terms of this "What's the scope of this" issue. A difference though is that "the start of a turn" is less like a thing that happened that could have been missed; it's this time period when stuff happens, more like a start of turn phase, even though it's not phrased like that and I mean isn't that.

Alright that's basically the summary of this discord conversation in April (including the new Merchant ruling). I think there was another edge case involving Way of the Mouse but man screw that card, you will not drag me into that conversation.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2021, 02:29:20 am by dz »
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Jeebus

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Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2021, 08:25:41 am »
0

That explanation doesn't cut it. Let's take Goons, which works when it's in a certain zone (in play), just like Duplicate and Sheepdog (according to you). And Donald has previously ruled that Goons, Haggler etc. trigger on a buy that happened before they're in play when we are still in the when-buy window. Being in a zone is a timing issue just like "from now on for the rest of this turn". There is the period before Goons was in play and the period after it entered play. The buy happened before. For Livery, the gain happened before "the rest of this turn". In both cases we are still resolving "when" abilities. There is no difference.

With Hireling, Donald is writing about "start of your turn", but that isn't the issue. "Start of your turn" for Hireling corresponds to "when you gain" for Livery. There is no question that we are still in the start-of-turn or when-gain window in each case. The question is the start of the ongoing ability. For Livery it's "from now on for the rest of the turn". For Hireling it's "from now on for the rest of the game". Clearly if Hireling works, so must Livery.
EDIT: I see that Donald is saying that "start of turn" is intrinsically different from "when you gain". But it's not; it's a point in time just like when-gain. Donald also acknowledges this by saying that it's not a phase. All "start of turn" abilities trigger at the same time (and therefore you get to decide which to resolve first, etc.). This is the key. It's just like several when-gain abilities triggering at the same time. Start of turn is a point in time occurring at the start of your turn before anything else. It can be missed to the exact same extent as "when you gain".

« Last Edit: December 31, 2021, 08:43:58 am by Jeebus »
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dz

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Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2021, 10:04:44 am »
0

At this point I think the only hope you have for changing the Livery ruling is to bring up an edge case that discord hasn’t thought of, that would cause the ruling to fall apart. We didn’t catch the Citadel Captain thing, so maybe there’s something there. Otherwise, we’re just beating a dead horse and making no progress, and I’d like to do other things.
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Jeebus

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Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2021, 11:17:44 am »
0

The Goons/Innovation edge case already makes the ruling fall apart, unless it is also reversed. I can't make Donald revert this ruling ("revert" since he already implicitly ruled differently via the Merchant ruling); all I can do is argue why it's inconsistent. If someone wants to argue that it's not, go ahead, but so far i haven't seen any sound arguments supporting that.

Jeebus

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Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2021, 01:34:32 pm »
+2

Scanning through the Discord discussion, I see that Donald initially (in February) wanted to rule that Livery/Innovation didn't give you a Horse, but realized that Haggler/Innovation then couldn't work either. He said that they should work the same, without coming to a clear conclusion. Then in April he stated that Livery doesn't work based on whatever he had said in February, which he didn't remember, but that Haggler should work.

And when asked about how this affected Merchant/Innovation/Silver, he said that he bet he had ruled earlier that it doesn't work. But actually he has ruled earlier that it does.

Quote from Donald: "It is hard to search discord, and we get too much traffic to read it all." How very true. Rules discussions like these should happen in the forum.

Anyway, I see that not even Donald has given a real explanation of how the Livery case could be different from the Haggler case. Quite the opposite, in February he stated that they should work the same.

Ingix

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Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2022, 05:35:56 am »
+1

From my interpretation, any trigger coming from an on-play ability, like Livery, cannot be applied retroactivly. Since on-play abilities that do something over a duration need to state that duration, that will usually be recognizable by a "this turn" phrase.

Any trigger stated on a "below the line" ability (like Haggler, Duplicate, etc.) can be applied retroactively (if it becomes available in the trigger window). That means a Haggler that comes into play inside a "When you buy" trigger window would allow (even require) it's abilitiy to be used. AFAIK, it has also been ruled that if the Haggler is in play when a card buy happens but leaves play during that window, it's ability also has to be applied. Both things together sound a bit contradictory, but that's what I understand.

Again, this is an interpretation and generalization of what Donald X. said.
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Jeebus

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Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2022, 10:43:25 am »
0

From my interpretation, any trigger coming from an on-play ability, like Livery, cannot be applied retroactivly. Since on-play abilities that do something over a duration need to state that duration, that will usually be recognizable by a "this turn" phrase.

Any trigger stated on a "below the line" ability (like Haggler, Duplicate, etc.) can be applied retroactively (if it becomes available in the trigger window). That means a Haggler that comes into play inside a "When you buy" trigger window would allow (even require) it's abilitiy to be used. AFAIK, it has also been ruled that if the Haggler is in play when a card buy happens but leaves play during that window, it's ability also has to be applied. Both things together sound a bit contradictory, but that's what I understand.

Again, this is an interpretation and generalization of what Donald X. said.

That would be a clearly stated rule separating the two types of abilities. But I still don't see any actual reason for why those two would behave differently in the trigger window. As noted above, Donald also expressed they would be the same back in February. Do you have a link to this explanation?

Also, it would definitely mean that Hireling doesn't trigger when played at start of turn.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2022, 10:46:36 am by Jeebus »
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dz

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Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2022, 12:47:25 pm »
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I don't know why you're using posts from February when all of my quotes were from April. Surely you would use the most up-to-date source?

Also discord is perfectly fine for people asking quick questions (which is most of the time). For full-on rules discussions with tricky answers (like this), yes it's probably better to have them here. The problem is how to ask a bunch of people to come to the forum just for occasional things like this.
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Jeebus

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Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2022, 01:45:03 pm »
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I don't know why you're using posts from February when all of my quotes were from April. Surely you would use the most up-to-date source?

Because, as I said above, only in February did he actually address the issue. Quoting myself:

Scanning through the Discord discussion, I see that Donald initially (in February) wanted to rule that Livery/Innovation didn't give you a Horse, but realized that Haggler/Innovation then couldn't work either. He said that they should work the same, without coming to a clear conclusion. Then in April he stated that Livery doesn't work based on whatever he had said in February, which he didn't remember, but that Haggler should work.

(Donald's next sentence after your April quote: "I do not remember the details of that discussion.")
« Last Edit: January 01, 2022, 01:51:09 pm by Jeebus »
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DaveS

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Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2022, 02:27:02 am »
+1

Thanks for the discussion everyone!

I have another scenario that's been on my mind that seems related to this: the gain effects of Gatekeeper and the Exile mat are opposite each other.

So far I lean toward preferring the rule "any new thing that gets added will also trigger" but doesn't that lead to a weird thing between these two effects?: A gain happens but only one can trigger. But as soon as you apply that effect, the other one triggers and essentially undoes the other's effect.

I see that Gatekeep has the FAQ answer: "Gaining a card that you do have a copy of on your Exile mat is unaffected, and lets you discard copies from your Exile mat if you want to as usual." But doesn't "any new thing that gets added will also trigger" contradict that FAQ answer?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2022, 01:27:22 pm by DaveS »
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Ingix

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Re: Playing Way of The Seal out of turn
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2022, 05:59:50 am »
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That would be a clearly stated rule separating the two types of abilities. But I still don't see any actual reason for why those two would behave differently in the trigger window. As noted above, Donald also expressed they would be the same back in February. Do you have a link to this explanation?

No, this is my interpretation, that I came up with, looking at the different rulings presented here. Nothing that Donald X. said, just trying to make sense of for myself.

As for the "actual reason for why those two would behave differently"? I've seen this happen several times in Magic 25 years ago. Some arcane rules interaction gets a ruling. More expansion come out, similar interactions increase in number. Then at some point a new "enabler" appears, that makes the interaction more common and the ruling now is contrary to "common sense" and what most players would expect. The ruling gets changed/amended.

The enabler here was Innovation, enabling a card to be played while still in it's "when-gain" window. The Livery-Innovation example is possibly what made the previous ruling paradoxical in the eyes of players: The Livery is played and sets up a "for the rest of this turn" trigger condition, that (under the rules as communicated before) is now applied to a time when that effect clearly couldn't have existed: when that Livery had just been gained.

That does make a compelling argument to reverse the ruling in that case. How that generalizes, is again my idea is presented above.
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