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[drg]

Tournament really should not show up in the black market deck.  I've seen it twice (fortunately gotten myself it both times) and it was incredibly destructive.  Both were in colony games with useful actions; I just bought a province then started racking up all the prizes to have complete control of the game.  I understand black market is random, but this is puts the prizes in play for only one player and is far too much.

[theory]

It probably depends on when you get it out of the BM.  Your situation (early on, in a Colony game) seems basically the worst case possible scenario.  In Province games, by the time you get it out of the BM, chances are it is too late for Prizes to make a huge difference.

[rrenaud]

Is it that much better than getting a witch or mountebank in a game with no trashing?  Or pulling out a trasher early in a game with cursing but no trashing?  The tournament still has a lot of lag to catch up with the other kind of advantages you can get from the black market.

[drg]

Well, it involves a curse giver/hand size reducer combined as well as other useful things, so it is more after a few plays, but if the board is such that there is no cursing or trashing (trashing at least will be available from the BM, but it will quite possibly be too slow) those cards can be game breaking too, which is why many people don't like the card in the first place.  One of the games, getting a quarry from the BM then a princess from the tournament from the BM just made my opp basically go 'oh god' and resign as I bought out a city stack while emptying the curses on him.  Sure, a curser from the BM deck (or a trasher) can be game breaking, but access to the entire prize pile for one person is a lot worse.

[Aardvark]

One of those games
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110607-131733-46fd7812.html
When I saw Tournament, I knew I am in trouble. Ambassador didn't make me happy, either. Still, drg deserved to win against my "strategy" .

[drg]

Gardens being in play actually kept that one close.

[DG]

I got badly beaten up by Possession in the black market deck the other day. I don't think the black market ever promises fair games, it just promises more interesting games. Having said that, the possession game was probably interesting for my opponent and frustrating for me.

[Jack Monkey Squat]

apropos nothing in particular, my absolute favorite type of game is a black market/fairgrounds game, preferably with colonies and a +actions card, since you'll typically end up with a fair number of terminals...

[Stoc]

I've had an opponent resign when I pulled a KC out of the Black Market fairly early on.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110514-162527-16c1fab4.html

Tournament is really not the only card that can show up in the BM and heavily sway the game.

[Jack Rudd]

I've pulled Tactician out of the Black Market before. That was quite good fun.

[keithjgrant]

I've pulled Tactician out of the Black Market before. That was quite good fun.

Someone did that to me yesterday. Though it wasn't as bad as all the attacks they pulled out of the black market, too.

[krawhitham]

I would say Black Market is my least favourite card.

The issue with Black Market is that it brings cards into play that may severely inbalance the game (of course, it can also be a fools errand wasting turns to chase the card you want).

Luck is always going to be a factor in Dominion, but over time better players win more games through knowledge of card combinations and strategy.

I don't believe there is a "Black Market strategy", or more importantly, no way to counter someone persuing Black Market cards.
I'm struggling to explain issue coherently, but I just feel like Black Market brings in 'too much luck'...

How to fix this? It is tricky, because cards are only good and bad depending on what's in the supply. Therefore "banning" certain cards from it would cause endless arguments.

[Jack Rudd]

There certainly exist Black Market strategies; Black Market/Tactician being a good example.

[Axe Knight]

There certainly exist Black Market strategies; Black Market/Tactician being a good example.

This is what I was going to say, too.  Some cards just take on a whole different character with the Black Market.  Tournament and Tactician are good, but consider some other cases.  There was an "in-person" game I played recently where there were both a Remake and an Upgrade in the Black Market when there was no trasher in the primary set of 10.  I got both.  Guess who won?

Also, consider a card like the Trade Route.  If you're the only one with the Trade Route, you don't have to worry about the caveat of extra victory cards purchased causing other players to gain the bonus as well.  Possession also comes to mind.  It is certainly difficult to purchase with a Black Market deck, but if you do, your opponent can't counter by also obtaining one.  They probably also haven't prepared for it as well. 

Conversely, there are not some cards that perform as well in the Black Market.  The Young Witch is a good example, especially if there are other curse givers.  Theory also pointed out some of the downsides to having Tournament in there; by that point, a Prize may not be as advantageous. 

This can apply to practically any card with a major attribute that is not present in the normal set of 10. 

[WanderingWinder]

Some cards just take on a whole different character with the Black Market.  Tournament and Tactician are good, but consider some other cases.  There was an "in-person" game I played recently where there were both a Remake and an Upgrade in the Black Market when there was no trasher in the primary set of 10.  I got both.  Guess who won?

It's basically never worth getting a black market just to pull a single card out of it. And actually, those trashers sorta weak, so I'm quite surprised that you were able to win against good opposition with them. Two cards, you need a weak kingdom. You usually need 3-4+ for it to be a good strategy, and in a strong kingdom, it's just never going to be worth it.

[Axe Knight]

Some cards just take on a whole different character with the Black Market.  Tournament and Tactician are good, but consider some other cases.  There was an "in-person" game I played recently where there were both a Remake and an Upgrade in the Black Market when there was no trasher in the primary set of 10.  I got both.  Guess who won?

It's basically never worth getting a black market just to pull a single card out of it. And actually, those trashers sorta weak, so I'm quite surprised that you were able to win against good opposition with them. Two cards, you need a weak kingdom. You usually need 3-4+ for it to be a good strategy, and in a strong kingdom, it's just never going to be worth it.

I wouldn't say I was going out of my way for them, and they're not the only reason I won, but it certainly did not hurt that I was the only one who could trash anything.

[drg]

There's almost always some reason to go after the black market, access to 25 more cards, some of them will be useful, unless either you've set up a set intentionally where every card is really strong, works together and there's cursing, trashing, actions, draws, buys and no deck dependent green cards as well as no tactician, library or watchtower, or there's no +2 action cards and there are probably vital terminals like witch/mountebank/chapel/wharf and also few/poor +2 action cards from the bm deck.

[david707]

You could argue a lot of cards shouldn't be in the BM deck, for example imagine drawing chapel the first time you play BM and buying it, that would give you a significant advantage over your opponent.

[chwhite]

There's almost always some reason to go after the black market, access to 25 more cards, some of them will be useful, unless either you've set up a set intentionally where every card is really strong, works together and there's cursing, trashing, actions, draws, buys and no deck dependent green cards as well as no tactician, library or watchtower, or there's no +2 action cards and there are probably vital terminals like witch/mountebank/chapel/wharf and also few/poor +2 action cards from the bm deck.

I couldn't disagree more.  It's usually the case that there are enough parts on the board for some fully-formed strategy without BM, and in that case BM is just a distraction.  Sometimes there are good reasons to take a gamble on BM- say Goons or Torturer are out and you want to fish for Villages, or there are lots of trashers in the BM deck and you're facing a board with Mountebank or something.  And sometimes BM is itself an integral part of a strategy on the board- Tactician and Fairgrounds come to mind.  But more often than not it seems like it becomes little more than a silver you have to waste an action on, and that's just no good.  I tend to do very well when I ignore BM, and most people on Isotropic do for that matter.