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Author Topic: Coffers Rules Change  (Read 9129 times)

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JW

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2021, 09:52:39 am »
+2

-Patron: Only gives Coffers during an Action phase.

To save anyone else a trip to the Wiki: "With the new rules to Coffers, Patron and Pursue would become an infinite combo. Because of this, Patron has received errata to only give Coffers during an Action phase."
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mxdata

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2021, 12:48:18 am »
0

-Patron: Only gives Coffers during an Action phase.

To save anyone else a trip to the Wiki: "With the new rules to Coffers, Patron and Pursue would become an infinite combo. Because of this, Patron has received errata to only give Coffers during an Action phase."

Thanks!  I was wondering why it was necessary to restrict Patron to action phase.  It didn't seem like the occasional coffer from things like Venture or Loan was worth the extra clause. I missed the interaction with Pursue
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Sparafucile

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2021, 02:37:04 am »
+1

Is this errata ever going to make it to the printed version of the cards - I love the game getting fixed - but it makes my IRL copy less true to the game when it happens. 
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Donald X.

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2021, 12:22:57 pm »
0

Is this errata ever going to make it to the printed version of the cards - I love the game getting fixed - but it makes my IRL copy less true to the game when it happens. 
It will, I think in 2022 though I'm not sure.
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pacovf

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2021, 02:57:45 pm »
+9

"While in play" is confusing in a way that "this turn" is not. That's what it comes down to.

I am amused by this. If I remember correctly, "while in play" was introduced because "this turn" was confusing (as in, harder to track). See Highway vs Bridge. Life twists and turns :p
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mxdata

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2021, 08:07:22 pm »
+4

"While in play" is confusing in a way that "this turn" is not. That's what it comes down to.

I am amused by this. If I remember correctly, "while in play" was introduced because "this turn" was confusing (as in, harder to track). See Highway vs Bridge. Life twists and turns :p

Yeah, honestly, "while in play" seems far easier than "this turn". And more fun with things like Ways
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Ingix

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2021, 05:51:06 am »
0

Dominion players (at least the one posting online) seem to like power. So they don't like their Throne Rooms not working with Highways (in the "reduce costs by $2" sense) or Goons (in the "give me 2VP per bought card" sense). And with more expansions coming out, Procession seems to be the odd one out of the "Throne Room"-likes.

Ways are another case where the "artificial" split between a card's abilities becomes visible: Way a Goon, and you still get the "VP per bought card" effect, but without the $2, +Buy and opponent's discard. It's kinda the opposite to Throne Room.

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scolapasta

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2021, 10:50:50 am »
+4

I played in person Dominion for the first time since the pandemic started this week and already felt the result of this change.

In a game with Guildhall and Fair (both bought previously turns), there was one province left and I only had $7. I was about to just buy a Duchy, when I realized the new rule let me first buy a Copper, get a Coffers, and then use that Coffers that turn to get up to $8. :)
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Jeebus

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2022, 05:20:30 am »
0

Before, the two subphases were "get coins" (play Treasures and spend Coffers tokens) and "use coins" (buy things and pay off Debt).
Is paying off Debt also changing?

spineflu

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2022, 11:15:35 am »
0

Is there a reason for Patron being phase-dependent rather than "if you haven't spent a Buy yet"? As the random Venture enjoyer of the board, that enabling combo was pretty nice.

Also kind of a bummer Merchant Guild isn't going to be enabled as a Way. Some good combos with wot Pig and others.

i thought of another noninfinite way for patron to work, including in the buy phase: just have it work when a card (not a landscape or rulebook) tells you to reveal it using the keyword reveal

AJD

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2022, 10:19:47 pm »
0

Before, the two subphases were "get coins" (play Treasures and spend Coffers tokens) and "use coins" (buy things and pay off Debt).

I don't think this is right? You can pay off Debt before playing Treasures if you choose.
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Ingix

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2022, 11:48:02 am »
0

Before, the two subphases were "get coins" (play Treasures and spend Coffers tokens) and "use coins" (buy things and pay off Debt).

I don't think this is right? You can pay off Debt before playing Treasures if you choose.

No, this is actually correct, as per the rules in the Empires rulebook:

Quote
A player removes Debt tokens in the player's Buy phase by paying $1 per Debt token to remove it; this is done after playing Treasures, but can be done both before and after buying cards.

dominion.games allows you pay off debt before, which may make it easier to do calculations in your head, but also has very little effect on what can actually happen, because you generally use/spend $ only by buying things.
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Jeebus

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2022, 01:10:32 pm »
0

dominion.games allows you pay off debt before, which may make it easier to do calculations in your head, but also has very little effect on what can actually happen, because you generally use/spend $ only by buying things.

I didn't realize that. I guess it would only make a difference if you played Black Market as a Treasure with Capitalism. According to the rules, this would be like playing it normally in your Action phase: you can't pay off debt, so you can't buy anything if you're in debt.*

But there are also ways to play Black Market in the second part of the buy phase, and then you actally can pay off debt. So it doesn't actually sound like a bad idea to allow paying off debt all through the buy phase, just like it works online - to simplify the rules.

*Another rare corner case: You want to play a Storyteller as a Treasure with Capitalism, but you don't want to pay all your $, rather use some of it on debt first.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2022, 01:13:50 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2022, 07:00:55 am »
0

Another question, hopefully Donald can answer: Is the rule for spending Villagers changing too? It would be simpler to just say that you can spend both Coffers and Villagers at any point during your turn.

And as mentioned above, you could also allow paying off debt at any point during your turn. Dominion Online already allows it throughout your Buy phase, with very little functional difference.

Actually, it would be even simpler to say that you can do these things whenever, instead of specifically excluding the corner cases where you might want to do them on another player's turn.

GendoIkari

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2022, 10:35:36 am »
+1


And as mentioned above, you could also allow paying off debt at any point during your turn. Dominion Online already allows it throughout your Buy phase, with very little functional difference.


Which would also allow Capital to get cleaner wording.
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dz

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2022, 10:49:07 am »
+8

Stef has been working on a big update for the online version for a while, and it will come out a couple weeks before Allies previews (week of Feb 28). It also includes all the new rules errata (such as the rules for playing cards, using coffers, and the new ruling for Star Chart). You can test it out here: https://dev.dominion.games/

Anyways, I can now give you the official wordings on *some* of the errata'd cards (not all of them; Hermit hasn't changed yet). I'm not going to cover the ones previously announced; if you need a refresher on Donate etc., go here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20551.msg856350#msg856350.

Merchant Guild (Action):
+1 Buy
+$1
At the end of your Buy phase this turn, +1 Coffers per card you gained in it.

Note that there's no dividing line, and Merchant Guil cares about gaining, not buying.

Patron (Action):
+1 Villager
+$2
(dividing line)
When something causes you to reveal this in an Action phase (using the word "reveal"), +1 Coffers.

Citadel (Project):
The first time you play an Action card during each of your turns, replay it afterwards.

Prince (Action-Duration)
You may set aside (on this) a non-Duration Action card from your hand costing up to $4. At the start of each of your turns, play that card, leaving it set aside.

Surprise, Prince is getting the 2019 errata treatment. Note that it doesn't have the Command type, because that type only exists to avoid infinite loops. Also Prince is a now a permanent duration, like Hireling.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2022, 12:00:50 pm by dz »
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silverspawn

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2022, 11:38:05 am »
0

achievement: play a cost reducer, then Prince a Pillage. (Unless I've missed an errata where Pillage only attacks if it's trashed successfully)
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ephesos

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2022, 11:55:24 am »
0

So if Prince doesn't have the Command type, and it no longer has the "Set this aside. If you do, ..." condition, can you use an Overlord and cost reduction to play a Prince from the Supply, leaving it there and setting aside a card from your hand on top of the supply pile?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2022, 12:01:22 pm by ephesos »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2022, 12:00:46 pm »
+1

achievement: play a cost reducer, then Prince a Pillage. (Unless I've missed an errata where Pillage only attacks if it's trashed successfully)

According to the text shown on Pillage itself in the Wiki, it does indeed only do something if trashed.

It received errata in 2019 to make it not be crazy with new Inheritance and Overlord, same as Embargo and Death Cart.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2022, 12:02:04 pm by GendoIkari »
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ephesos

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2022, 12:03:15 pm »
+1

So if Prince doesn't have the Command type, and it no longer has the "Set this aside. If you do, ..." condition, can you use an Overlord and cost reduction to play a Prince from the Supply, leaving it there and setting aside a card from your hand on top of the supply pile?

I guess because it has the Duration tag now, Overlord would stay out and you would set the card aside on that.

Maybe it would also work with Throne Room or King's Court to set aside multiple cards?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2022, 12:06:46 pm by ephesos »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2022, 12:03:43 pm »
+1

So if Prince doesn't have the Command type, and it no longer has the "Set this aside. If you do, ..." condition, can you use an Overlord and cost reduction to play a Prince from the Supply, leaving it there and setting aside a card from your hand on top of the supply pile?

It has been clarified elsewhere that "on this" is not meant to be taken literally in all cases, but rather just a suggestion for tracking of where to set cards aside. For example, if you play Haven from the supply, the card you set aside doesn't go under that Haven.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2022, 12:04:52 pm »
0

So if Prince doesn't have the Command type, and it no longer has the "Set this aside. If you do, ..." condition, can you use an Overlord and cost reduction to play a Prince from the Supply, leaving it there and setting aside a card from your hand on top of the supply pile?

Oh never mind, I missed that it also got the Duration tag. Though maybe it would still work with Throne Room or King's Court to set aside multiple cards?

Confused by this post, what does the Duration change have to do with the question?

But to your edit, yes, Throne Room and King's Court should now work with Prince, which they didn't before.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2022, 12:06:43 pm by GendoIkari »
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ephesos

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2022, 12:07:28 pm »
0

Confused by this post, what does the Duration change have to do with the question?

But to your edit, yes, Throne Room and King's Court should now work with Prince, which they didn't before.

I edited it again to try and make it clearer
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GendoIkari

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2022, 12:09:27 pm »
0

Confused by this post, what does the Duration change have to do with the question?

But to your edit, yes, Throne Room and King's Court should now work with Prince, which they didn't before.

I edited it again to try and make it clearer

Ah ok. Yeah for tracking purposes it would indeed be recommended to set aside the chosen card on your Overlord, though that still is a non-literal reading of the "on this", in which "this" is the Prince that's in the supply.
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ephesos

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2022, 12:12:57 pm »
+1

Another follow-up question: what happens if you Prince a Prince with cost reduction? Do you just get to keep on Princing cards every turn? And does the card you just set aside with your Princed Prince get played in the same "start of turn" phase that you set it aside in?
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