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Author Topic: Coffers Rules Change  (Read 10332 times)

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GendoIkari

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #50 on: February 07, 2022, 12:17:22 pm »
+4

Another follow-up question: what happens if you Prince a Prince with cost reduction? Do you just get to keep on Princing cards every turn? And does the card you just set aside with your Princed Prince get played in the same "start of turn" phase that you set it aside in?

You can't because new Prince has both Duration type and "non-Duration" clause.
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ephesos

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2022, 12:54:32 pm »
0

Another follow-up question: what happens if you Prince a Prince with cost reduction? Do you just get to keep on Princing cards every turn? And does the card you just set aside with your Princed Prince get played in the same "start of turn" phase that you set it aside in?

You can't because new Prince has both Duration type and "non-Duration" clause.

Hmmmm, maybe you could Prince a Band of Misfits to play a Prince. Though that would require Prince to cost less than Band of Misfits which doesn't seem possible currently. Either that, or use Inheritance plus cost reduction to give your Estates the ability to play a set-aside Prince, since your Estates wouldn't have the Duration tag.
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silverspawn

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2022, 01:11:19 pm »
0

achievement: play a cost reducer, then Prince a Pillage. (Unless I've missed an errata where Pillage only attacks if it's trashed successfully)

According to the text shown on Pillage itself in the Wiki, it does indeed only do something if trashed.

It received errata in 2019 to make it not be crazy with new Inheritance and Overlord, same as Embargo and Death Cart.

Still, any other card that trashes itself while producing resources should work with Prince now? Like Acting Troupe.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #53 on: February 07, 2022, 01:19:40 pm »
0

achievement: play a cost reducer, then Prince a Pillage. (Unless I've missed an errata where Pillage only attacks if it's trashed successfully)

According to the text shown on Pillage itself in the Wiki, it does indeed only do something if trashed.

It received errata in 2019 to make it not be crazy with new Inheritance and Overlord, same as Embargo and Death Cart.

Still, any other card that trashes itself while producing resources should work with Prince now? Like Acting Troupe.

And Feast!
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Jeebus

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #54 on: February 07, 2022, 01:31:58 pm »
0

achievement: play a cost reducer, then Prince a Pillage. (Unless I've missed an errata where Pillage only attacks if it's trashed successfully)

According to the text shown on Pillage itself in the Wiki, it does indeed only do something if trashed.

It received errata in 2019 to make it not be crazy with new Inheritance and Overlord, same as Embargo and Death Cart.

Still, any other card that trashes itself while producing resources should work with Prince now? Like Acting Troupe.

And Feast!

Tragic Hero, if you also have a +1 Card effect (like Hireling, or a Caravan played most turns), will repeatedly draw three cards and gain a gold.
Wine Merchant, Encampment, Experiment and Knights will keep doing their thing, never going away.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2022, 02:42:09 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2022, 02:00:23 pm »
+4

Either that, or use Inheritance plus cost reduction to give your Estates the ability to play a set-aside Prince, since your Estates wouldn't have the Duration tag.

Yeah, if you inherit Prince (with cost reduction), I think you could play a Prince (or an Estate) and set aside an Estate, and the Estate would play the original set-aside Prince every turn for the rest of the game. Each turn you would be able to choose a new card to play every turn for the rest of the game. If you choose another Estate, you would be able to choose two cards every turn, starting next turn. Not exactly an infinite loop, but pretty loopy nonetheless.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2022, 02:44:45 pm by Jeebus »
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NiCkLeB474

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #56 on: February 10, 2022, 07:33:23 pm »
+5

I couldn't find precedent for this on the Wiki; if you return to your Action phase, does that result in two Buy phases or is it more like "getting to" the start of your Buy phase (singular) multiple times? Does the new Merchant Guild only count gains that happened in the one Buy phase that reaches its end?
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kieranmillar

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #57 on: February 11, 2022, 02:22:48 am »
+1

New Merchant Guild only counts gains for the buy phase that ended. Returning to your action phase via Villa or Cavalry means any gains that happened in that buy phase don't count, as it never reached the end.

So you start multiple buy phases, but only the last one reaches the end.
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Jeebus

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #58 on: February 11, 2022, 05:03:44 am »
+1

We know that you only reach the end of your Buy phase once. But do we know that each time you start your Buy phase it counts as a new Buy phase? Do you have a quote from Donald about this?

Donald X.

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #59 on: February 11, 2022, 12:49:35 pm »
+2

We know that you only reach the end of your Buy phase once. But do we know that each time you start your Buy phase it counts as a new Buy phase? Do you have a quote from Donald about this?
Tentatively it's a new phase every time it starts anew.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #60 on: February 11, 2022, 03:14:28 pm »
0

We know that you only reach the end of your Buy phase once. But do we know that each time you start your Buy phase it counts as a new Buy phase? Do you have a quote from Donald about this?
Tentatively it's a new phase every time it starts anew.

Not sure if this answers the part of the question directly about Merchant Guild. When you return to your action phase from your buy phase does that trigger new Merchant Guild? Is "the end of your buy phase" any time your buy phase is ending?
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NiCkLeB474

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #61 on: February 11, 2022, 03:31:11 pm »
+2

We know that you only reach the end of your Buy phase once. But do we know that each time you start your Buy phase it counts as a new Buy phase? Do you have a quote from Donald about this?
Tentatively it's a new phase every time it starts anew.

Not sure if this answers the part of the question directly about Merchant Guild. When you return to your action phase from your buy phase does that trigger new Merchant Guild? Is "the end of your buy phase" any time your buy phase is ending?

http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Wine_Merchant#Other_rules_clarifications

The timing on Wine Merchant is the same as new Merchant Guild, and returning from Buy to Action phase does not trigger WM, so it would appear that no, the only way to trigger new MG is by reaching the end of Buy phase normally.
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Jeebus

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #62 on: February 11, 2022, 04:48:04 pm »
+1

Yes, this has been ruled on before, that's why I wrote, "We know that you only reach the end of your Buy phase once."

Jeebus

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #63 on: February 12, 2022, 05:05:00 am »
+2

We know that you only reach the end of your Buy phase once. But do we know that each time you start your Buy phase it counts as a new Buy phase? Do you have a quote from Donald about this?
Tentatively it's a new phase every time it starts anew.

I've been thinking about Cavalry and Villa. They say, "return to your Action phase," which implies that there is only one Action phase although you reach the end of it several times. This would imply that the same goes for the Buy phase: There is only one Buy phase although you reach the beginning of it several times.

Jack Rudd

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #64 on: February 12, 2022, 10:06:22 am »
0

I suppose infinite combos might be a problem with a Night card that returned to an earlier phase, but the answer to that is probably to not make that card.
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Donald X.

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #65 on: February 12, 2022, 11:51:53 am »
+4

We know that you only reach the end of your Buy phase once. But do we know that each time you start your Buy phase it counts as a new Buy phase? Do you have a quote from Donald about this?
Tentatively it's a new phase every time it starts anew.

I've been thinking about Cavalry and Villa. They say, "return to your Action phase," which implies that there is only one Action phase although you reach the end of it several times. This would imply that the same goes for the Buy phase: There is only one Buy phase although you reach the beginning of it several times.
I see what you mean.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #66 on: February 12, 2022, 09:51:58 pm »
0

Amy particular reason that new Merchant Guild doesn’t trigger at the end of your turn instead of the end of your buy phase?
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Donald X.

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #67 on: February 13, 2022, 12:22:46 pm »
0

Amy particular reason that new Merchant Guild doesn’t trigger at the end of your turn instead of the end of your buy phase?
Just that it's based on the previous Merchant Guild.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #68 on: February 13, 2022, 11:37:35 pm »
0

Amy particular reason that new Merchant Guild doesn’t trigger at the end of your turn instead of the end of your buy phase?
Just that it's based on the previous Merchant Guild.

Not really sure that the wording is closer to the original than "end of turn" would be. I suppose in games with Night phases, it's the difference between old Merchant Guild having the coffers during your Night Phase, while "end of turn" Merchant Guild wouldn't. But in that case, "end of turn" would be closer in functionality to old Merchant Guild than "end of buy phase" would, because old Merchant Guild (with old Coffers rules) didn't let you spend those new Coffers during your Night phase. New Merchant Guild (with "End of buy phase") allows you to spend them during Night phase, while "End of turn" wouldn't. And "End of turn" would remove the confusion about which buy phases count for which. It could be for each card you bought this turn, or for each card you gained during your buy phase this turn; either way.

I wonder how strong new "gained' version is with things like Port and Experiment.
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Donald X.

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #69 on: February 14, 2022, 12:10:33 pm »
+1

Amy particular reason that new Merchant Guild doesn’t trigger at the end of your turn instead of the end of your buy phase?
Just that it's based on the previous Merchant Guild.

Not really sure that the wording is closer to the original than "end of turn" would be. I suppose in games with Night phases, it's the difference between old Merchant Guild having the coffers during your Night Phase, while "end of turn" Merchant Guild wouldn't. But in that case, "end of turn" would be closer in functionality to old Merchant Guild than "end of buy phase" would, because old Merchant Guild (with old Coffers rules) didn't let you spend those new Coffers during your Night phase. New Merchant Guild (with "End of buy phase") allows you to spend them during Night phase, while "End of turn" wouldn't. And "End of turn" would remove the confusion about which buy phases count for which. It could be for each card you bought this turn, or for each card you gained during your buy phase this turn; either way.

I wonder how strong new "gained' version is with things like Port and Experiment.
It's not that I compared "end of turn" and found it wanting; I just found a wording based on looking at the current card.

"End of turn" does do the trick of getting rid of rules questions for Villas.
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Donald X.

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #70 on: February 15, 2022, 03:01:22 pm »
+6

Currently I am leaning towards, Villa (and pals) will actually end the Buy phase. This can trigger Wine Merchant, Exploration, Pageant, Merchant Guild.

The idea is just, if we asked a casual player, wouldn't they say that the Buy phase ended? I mean after gaining Villa you're no longer in it. We call that "ending."
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Jeebus

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #71 on: February 15, 2022, 03:35:03 pm »
+1

Currently I am leaning towards, Villa (and pals) will actually end the Buy phase. This can trigger Wine Merchant, Exploration, Pageant, Merchant Guild.

The idea is just, if we asked a casual player, wouldn't they say that the Buy phase ended? I mean after gaining Villa you're no longer in it. We call that "ending."

The question then would be, does that also mean that Villa makes the Action phase start again? But fortunately it doesn't matter, since no cards care about the start of the Action phase. And I guess no cards ever will, since "beginning of turn" serves the same purpose.

GendoIkari

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #72 on: February 15, 2022, 03:45:58 pm »
0

Currently I am leaning towards, Villa (and pals) will actually end the Buy phase. This can trigger Wine Merchant, Exploration, Pageant, Merchant Guild.

The idea is just, if we asked a casual player, wouldn't they say that the Buy phase ended? I mean after gaining Villa you're no longer in it. We call that "ending."

I agree, the old ruling feels odd to me; if you were somewhere and you are no longer there, clearly you left. If you were at a time in your life and you are no longer in that time in your life, that time in your life ended.
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silverspawn

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #73 on: February 15, 2022, 03:47:48 pm »
+7

If you imagine phases as a label you put on a chunk of time, they start and end. If on the other hand you imagine your turn specially, like a road separated into "action phase", "buy phase", "night phase", then buying a villa would be like taking a step backwards, and you haven't reached the end of the buy phase.

I would genuinely not be super shocked most casual players imagine it the latter way (though I'd probably bet against it). Maybe you could run a poll!
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ephesos

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Re: Coffers Rules Change
« Reply #74 on: February 15, 2022, 06:46:44 pm »
0

Does triggering Pageant multiple times mean you can pay $1 for 1 Coffers multiple times per turn? Or can you only pay once, but each time Pageant triggers you get the option to do it if you haven't yet? The Renaissance rulebook says Pageant only works once per turn, but of course with a new wording that could be completely void now (though presumably, you'd still only be able to do it once per Buy phase that ended).
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