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Author Topic: Weekly Design Contest #128: Look at the trash!  (Read 2571 times)

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spineflu

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #128: Look at the trash!
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2021, 09:06:07 am »
0

I think it's very hard to design a card that scales in power depending on the number of stuff in the trash, especially given existing cards.


Quote
Tannery • $4 • Action
You may trash a card from your hand for +1 Card per Action card in the trash. If it was an Action, +1 Action.
-
The first time you buy this in a game, trash an Action card from the Supply.
Imagine this in a Necromancer game: A least +4 cards on the very first play. In games with trashing attacks this quickly scales into a card that draws your entire deck.

Fixed the Necromancer interaction; there's not a ton I can do about the trashing attacks but (1) there's not a ton of those that care about actions specifically and (2) it's not a problematic interaction for Forager and <thief variant of choice> so i guess it's fine, just know it's a little better in those games.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2021, 09:18:24 am by spineflu »
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faust

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #128: Look at the trash!
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2021, 09:41:25 am »
0

I think it's very hard to design a card that scales in power depending on the number of stuff in the trash, especially given existing cards.


Quote
Tannery • $4 • Action
You may trash a card from your hand for +1 Card per Action card in the trash. If it was an Action, +1 Action.
-
The first time you buy this in a game, trash an Action card from the Supply.
Imagine this in a Necromancer game: A least +4 cards on the very first play. In games with trashing attacks this quickly scales into a card that draws your entire deck.

Fixed the Necromancer interaction; there's not a ton I can do about the trashing attacks but (1) there's not a ton of those that care about actions specifically and (2) it's not a problematic interaction for Forager and <thief variant of choice> so i guess it's fine, just know it's a little better in those games.
(1)  - this doesn't really matter; most cards in your deck are actions, so most of the time one gets trashed it will be an action.
(2) - that is true but Forager has a relatively reasonable upper limit most of the time by only caring about differently named cards. Tannery on the other hand can easily go to +20 or more even without attacks - for instance on a board where Rats are good.
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spineflu

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #128: Look at the trash!
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2021, 09:56:41 am »
0

I guess I'm less concerned about that, and here's why:
(1) consider a city quarter game. Aw man Player A can draw their whole deck in two plays of a city quarter. but they took the time to tailor that deck to do that.
(2) trash isn't personal. The buy-in on Tannery isn't cost adjusted per player. if you put the game into a state where you can draw your deck off a single play of tannery (which still requires trash-feed to really work), your opponent can also get in on that for $4. Overenabling of Tannery is going to be a hubris move, like buying the penult province without having the win in the bag.

That said, changing it to be "differently named" actions is probably also prudent.

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Timinou

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #128: Look at the trash!
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2021, 10:17:07 am »
0


Quote
Tannery • $4 • Action
You may trash a card from your hand for +1 Card per non-Zombie Action card in the trash. If it was an Action, +1 Action.
-
The first time you buy this in a game, trash an Action card from the Supply.

edit: updated to care about the interaction between this and necromancer.

I think this can still be pretty nuts even with the non-Zombie restriction.  If for example there are Ruins in the Kingdom with any decent trashing, Tannery could easily draw 10+ cards.  I agree with faust about having some kind of ceiling (either differently named cards or maybe a cost restriction).
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spineflu

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #128: Look at the trash!
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2021, 10:20:20 am »
+1


Quote
Tannery • $4 • Action
You may trash a card from your hand for +1 Card per non-Zombie Action card in the trash. If it was an Action, +1 Action.
-
The first time you buy this in a game, trash an Action card from the Supply.

edit: updated to care about the interaction between this and necromancer.

I think this can still be pretty nuts even with the non-Zombie restriction.  If for example there are Ruins in the Kingdom with any decent trashing, Tannery could easily draw 10+ cards.  I agree with faust about having some kind of ceiling (either differently named cards or maybe a cost restriction).

you quoted me between edits, i used "differently named"; kinda wish dxv would've used "unique" as a keyword for that since it makes card texts longer (and he's put substantial effort into making sure cards with the same name have the same text/effect), but it is what it is.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2021, 10:22:16 am by spineflu »
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faust

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #128: Look at the trash!
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2021, 10:21:12 am »
+1

I guess I'm less concerned about that, and here's why:
(1) consider a city quarter game. Aw man Player A can draw their whole deck in two plays of a city quarter. but they took the time to tailor that deck to do that.
(2) trash isn't personal. The buy-in on Tannery isn't cost adjusted per player. if you put the game into a state where you can draw your deck off a single play of tannery (which still requires trash-feed to really work), your opponent can also get in on that for $4. Overenabling of Tannery is going to be a hubris move, like buying the penult province without having the win in the bag.

That said, changing it to be "differently named" actions is probably also prudent.
I guess what I'm saying is that often enough the trash will fill without any effort, so it's not like any one player is "overenabling"; it just happens. "Differently named" definitely makes it more reasonable, unless you're playing a Knights game. And I guess Ruins could also still make this draw a lot.
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #128: Look at the trash!
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2021, 11:14:50 am »
+1



Foundry
Action ($4)
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand.
Choose one: +1 Card; or draw until you have 2 cards in hand for each differently named Treasure in the trash.

Thinking back to the DtX contest and I thought the idea of a "variable" DtX was really interesting so I wanted to give it a try. It also has a +1 Card option for better use early on.
Hopefully the wording on the DtX part makes sense, I'd be happy to hear any suggestions on how to make it clearer if anyone has any :)

EDIT: Lowered price to $4, made trashing mandatory, and changed it to only count Treasures but for 2 cards each instead of 1.

I think this buff makes it too strong for just .
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xyz123

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #128: Look at the trash!
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2021, 03:20:58 am »
+5

Shaman
$4
Action

Choose one: trash 2 cards from your hand; or look at one card from the top of your deck per card type in the trash. Trash or discard any number of them. Put the rest back in any order.
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grep

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #128: Look at the trash!
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2021, 01:34:47 pm »
+8



Way of the Vulture
Play a non-Command Action or Treasure card from Trash costing less than this, leaving it there.

Update (thanks JW): added a "non-Command" clause to avoid loops
« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 11:31:08 am by grep »
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JW

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #128: Look at the trash!
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2021, 03:56:42 pm »
+3



Way of the Vulture
Play an Action or Treasure card from Trash costing less than this, leaving it there.

Shouldn’t this have a non-Command restriction? For example, I believe that 3 Highways in play, Captain in the trash and a $7 cost action in hand leads to a loop that lets you play an arbitrarily high number of actions costing up to $4 at the start of the next turn.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 08:22:07 pm by JW »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #128: Look at the trash!
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2021, 01:32:14 am »
+5

Book of the Dead
Project - $4
When you play an Action, if you have no other copies in play and at least one in the trash, play it twice instead.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 05:58:37 pm by NoMoreFun »
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grep

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #128: Look at the trash!
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2021, 11:21:43 am »
+1



Way of the Vulture
Play an Action or Treasure card from Trash costing less than this, leaving it there.

Shouldn’t this have a non-Command restriction? For example, I believe that 3 Highways in play, Captain in the trash and a $7 cost action in hand leads to a loop that lets you play an arbitrarily high number of actions costing up to $4 at the start of the next turn.

Agree, I missed this loop. Will reformulate to fix it
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spineflu

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #128: Look at the trash!
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2021, 11:26:08 am »
+3



Way of the Vulture
Play an Action or Treasure card from Trash costing less than this, leaving it there.

Shouldn’t this have a non-Command restriction? For example, I believe that 3 Highways in play, Captain in the trash and a $7 cost action in hand leads to a loop that lets you play an arbitrarily high number of actions costing up to $4 at the start of the next turn.

Agree, I missed this loop. Will reformulate to fix it

I think this still loops via Scepter. Play altar as vulture, play scepter to play altar as vulture,...

kinda trivial but not so with an adventure token or two.
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arowdok

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #128: Look at the trash!
« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2021, 01:27:11 pm »
+2



With my entry I am giving players access to lots of treasures to make the Ritual Tithe worth quite a bit. (Potion, Spoils, Heirloom, and Base = 6VP). But that does require effort and if others saved their heirlooms they can purchase one late in the game, but if they trash the heirloom with all their coppers like many decks do then they will need to buy a tradition Potion to get the Ritual Tithes. Also the Heirloom brings early Potion buy power to the 1&2 turns which seems exciting. Lastly the delayed Coffers is something I am trying to see if it interesting for players to mange.

Quote
Ritual Tithe
Victory $2^(Potion)
Worth 1% per differently named Treasure in the trash.
-
When you gain this, you may trash a card from your hand. Gain a Spoils per $1 it costs. Gain a Spoils onto your deck if it has ^ in its cost.
Heirloom: Chalice
Quote
Chalice
Treasure - Heirloom $3^(Potion)
^
-
When you discard this from play, +1 Coffers.
"
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Timinou

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #128: Look at the trash!
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2021, 01:57:15 pm »
+1

Having Chalice in hand on Turn 1 could be quite advantageous if your opponent only has it on Turn 2, since you’ll have an extra Coffer that you can spend on Turn 2 while your opponent won’t.
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Timinou

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #128: Look at the trash!
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2021, 02:02:20 pm »
+3

Landfill
Project - $4
When you play an Action, if there are no other copies in play and at least one in the trash, play it twice instead.

Do you mean only cards that you have in play or would your opponents’ Duration cards in play count?
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Boomyday

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #128: Look at the trash!
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2021, 03:41:45 pm »
0

My weird idea of the week:




Yep. A strange trash traveller type line with crazy and explosive combos. Trumpet as draw, violin as gains, harp to really kick things off and grand piano as payload. FAQ: Cards under Grand Piano are not part of your deck: they do not count for end of game scoring. There are 4 of each Instrument in the trash.
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grep

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #128: Look at the trash!
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2021, 04:04:09 pm »
0

My weird idea of the week:

Yep. A strange trash traveller type line with crazy and explosive combos. Trumpet as draw, violin as gains, harp to really kick things off and grand piano as payload. FAQ: Cards under Grand Piano are not part of your deck: they do not count for end of game scoring. There are 4 of each Instrument in the trash.
Looks like Orchestra and Harp can steal cards from under someone's Grand Piano. Is it intended?
It won't be easy to to activate Grand Piano
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Boomyday

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #128: Look at the trash!
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2021, 04:21:47 pm »
0

My weird idea of the week:

Yep. A strange trash traveller type line with crazy and explosive combos. Trumpet as draw, violin as gains, harp to really kick things off and grand piano as payload. FAQ: Cards under Grand Piano are not part of your deck: they do not count for end of game scoring. There are 4 of each Instrument in the trash.
Looks like Orchestra and Harp can steal cards from under someone's Grand Piano. Is it intended?
It won't be easy to to activate Grand Piano

They can’t because the cards under piano are trashed, but not “in the trash”. Also it’s not meant to be easy to activate but harp makes it much easier - trashing even a lower card to gold to hand then using orchestra.
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emtzalex

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #128: Look at the trash!
« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2021, 05:28:30 pm »
+1

My weird idea of the week:




Yep. A strange trash traveller type line with crazy and explosive combos. Trumpet as draw, violin as gains, harp to really kick things off and grand piano as payload. FAQ: Cards under Grand Piano are not part of your deck: they do not count for end of game scoring. There are 4 of each Instrument in the trash.

For the below-the-line text in Orchestra, you should capitalize "Instruments" and should probably clarify that all 20 copies go into the trash. Per Necromancer, it should probably say:

Quote from: Orchestra
Trash a card...from the trash.

Put the 20 Instruments into the trash.

Also, your Instruments don't need an asterisk on their price or "(This is not in the Supply.)" at the bottom (which only 3 have currently). That is only necessary when the cards will be in a pile which might be confused for a Supply pile. That's why Horse, Spoils, Travellers, and the Prizes have those, but Zombies and Heirlooms do not.
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Timinou

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #128: Look at the trash!
« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2021, 12:34:04 am »
0

My weird idea of the week:




Yep. A strange trash traveller type line with crazy and explosive combos. Trumpet as draw, violin as gains, harp to really kick things off and grand piano as payload. FAQ: Cards under Grand Piano are not part of your deck: they do not count for end of game scoring. There are 4 of each Instrument in the trash.

Harp and Fortress is an insane combo if you have a $5-cost Kingdom card in the trash (which you most likely will if you used Orchestra to gain Harp rather than Lurker, Rogue or Graverobber).  You could empty its Supply pile with a single Harp with Fortress in hand.  And while you're at it, you even get to draw your entire deck!

« Last Edit: September 14, 2021, 12:35:32 am by Timinou »
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arowdok

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #128: Look at the trash!
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2021, 12:51:31 am »
0

Having Chalice in hand on Turn 1 could be quite advantageous if your opponent only has it on Turn 2, since you’ll have an extra Coffer that you can spend on Turn 2 while your opponent won’t.

Well i hope that each player can make use of the coffers differently. So your example is a bad turn 1 then great turn 2. The other option is ok turn 1 bad turn 2 then a great turn 3. The turn 3 card misses the shuffle but can be even more effective when a player has combines the coffers with whatever they gain earlier.
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #128: Look at the trash!
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2021, 12:55:02 am »
0

Old Drum is crazy. Even if you do not intend to exchange it, a cantrip trasher for $3 is overpowered as you can open with two copies of it.
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #128: Look at the trash!
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2021, 01:06:50 am »
0

Old Drum is crazy. Even if you do not intend to exchange it, a cantrip trasher for $3 is overpowered as you can open with two copies of it.

The Instruments start in the trash. You can't open with one copy of it, let alone two.
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Timinou

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #128: Look at the trash!
« Reply #49 on: September 14, 2021, 10:13:23 am »
+1

Having Chalice in hand on Turn 1 could be quite advantageous if your opponent only has it on Turn 2, since you’ll have an extra Coffer that you can spend on Turn 2 while your opponent won’t.

Well i hope that each player can make use of the coffers differently. So your example is a bad turn 1 then great turn 2. The other option is ok turn 1 bad turn 2 then a great turn 3. The turn 3 card misses the shuffle but can be even more effective when a player has combines the coffers with whatever they gain earlier.

Having a Coffer to spend before the first shuffle is better than only having it to spend after the first shuffle.  Most games with Chalice will not have any Potion-cost cards other than Ritual Tithe in the Kingdom, so you're looking at opening splits of 4/2, 2/4, or 3/3 [EDIT: or 5/1 or 1/5].  However, a player with Chalice in hand on Turn 1 will effectively have a more "normal" split of 4/3, 2/5, or 3/4 [EDIT: or 5/2 or the less normal 1/6] if they choose to spend the Coffer on Turn 2; whereas the player who only sees it on Turn 2 will likely have a worse opening.  This isn't necessarily a game-deciding advantage, but I think it's still an issue and it only gets worse if there are no worthwhile $2-cost cards in the Kingdom.   
« Last Edit: September 14, 2021, 11:39:34 am by Timinou »
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