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[Invincible Overlord]

All of the other sets I played were fantastic but the few sets that were like that were a little dull to play.  To add my thoughts, imo the base game itself isn't very complex.  Games get more and more interesting as all of the expansions are mixed together.  It would be fun if for future preliminary rounds, the kingdoms could have more representation from different sets (I think all the kingdoms had 10 cards from a single expansion).

Most definitely. Mix up the sets!!!

[questioneer]

All of the other sets I played were fantastic but the few sets that were like that were a little dull to play.  To add my thoughts, imo the base game itself isn't very complex.  Games get more and more interesting as all of the expansions are mixed together.  It would be fun if for future preliminary rounds, the kingdoms could have more representation from different sets (I think all the kingdoms had 10 cards from a single expansion).

Most definitely. Mix up the sets!!!

Yes this will happen next year.  As in the Nationals and Worlds, there will be 2-3 set mixtures for the pre-lims also.

[ednever]

Posting my write-up on a new thread. For those who were there, please do comment over the top and add your color.

(It's long - I wrote it on the plane ride home...)

Ed

[theory]

Also, for next year I plan on doing the 5-round pre-lims differently.  I will use a "tournament point" system.  It will go like this: 

1st place= 5pts (includes extra bonus point for the win)
2nd place= 3pts
3rd place= 2pts
4th place= 1pts

Highest pts. (top half) will advance to Single Elimination rounds.  I think this will be much better for all.

Just saw this on the homepage here for the online tourny:

For a four-player game:
 
6 points for the winner
4 points for second place
2 points for third place
0 points for fourth place
 
For a three-player game:
 
6 points for the winner
3 points for second place
0 points for third place
 
Ties will be broken in favor of most wins, then a playoff.

I like this a lot.  This is a more refined "tournament point" system than mine.  I will probably use this next year.  I would change the last players points to "1" instead of "0" for psychological reasons.  It would suck to end the day with "0" in my opinion. 

The only thing I don't like about the online tourny is the 4-pod/4games idea.  Playing the same people for 4 rounds is not really fun for players.  Don't know why they did this.  Simplicity I suppose.

The 0 is important because it leads to the same expected value overall.  If you want to change it to 1, you have to adjust all the other values too.

If you don't play the same players, then every heat is constrained by the slowest heat, which makes things a lot slower, and is also a lot harder to communicate online rather than inperson.

[Kirian]

If you don't play the same players, then every heat is constrained by the slowest heat, which makes things a lot slower, and is also a lot harder to communicate online rather than in person.

Of course, if everyone is playing the same set at the same time, this becomes less of a problem...

[questioneer]

Also, for next year I plan on doing the 5-round pre-lims differently.  I will use a "tournament point" system.  It will go like this: 

1st place= 5pts (includes extra bonus point for the win)
2nd place= 3pts
3rd place= 2pts
4th place= 1pts

Highest pts. (top half) will advance to Single Elimination rounds.  I think this will be much better for all.

Just saw this on the homepage here for the online tourny:

For a four-player game:
 
6 points for the winner
4 points for second place
2 points for third place
0 points for fourth place
 
For a three-player game:
 
6 points for the winner
3 points for second place
0 points for third place
 
Ties will be broken in favor of most wins, then a playoff.

I like this a lot.  This is a more refined "tournament point" system than mine.  I will probably use this next year.  I would change the last players points to "1" instead of "0" for psychological reasons.  It would suck to end the day with "0" in my opinion. 

The only thing I don't like about the online tourny is the 4-pod/4games idea.  Playing the same people for 4 rounds is not really fun for players.  Don't know why they did this.  Simplicity I suppose.

The 0 is important because it leads to the same expected value overall.  If you want to change it to 1, you have to adjust all the other values too.

That does make sense with the nice ratios and all.  Alright "0" it is then.

[ednever]

If you want a minimum of 1 you can do:

4-player:
12
9
6
3

3-player
12
8
4

Ed

[questioneer]

If you want a minimum of 1 you can do:

4-player:
12
9
6
3

3-player
12
8
4

Ed

yeah, I was thinking the same thing.  In either case, this will be the new pre-lim point system for next year.

[elkabong]

I actually did the Village/Smithy/Library combo and spun through my deck quite effectively, much to the chagrin of Ednever... However I thought I had card-counted his deck to 48 cards, and not 50. Hence he won 50 points that round to my 47. That and I only had 29 cards with my 3 gardens in my deck... 

Had I counted correctly, I would have tried to end the game by expiring a 3rd pile earlier...

It was a great experience, and 4 out of my 5 games were very close. Back to the grindstone...

Didn't you have some sort of custom play-mat, along with some intimidatingly large multi-sided dice for counting?   I wasn't convinced you were counting (although my daughter insisted you were), but that you were just trying to intimidate...      I guess it worked, congrats on the win. 

[questioneer]

This is another question I will bring up for Donald X and Jay- at the Nationals and Worlds do they allow things like mats, counting dice and pen/paper to count or write down current card counts and scores. 

I know online this is done for you and I know that legally by the rulebook that players can count the cards in any supply pile or deck.  One cannot count the cards in any discard pile though and one cannot look through any deck or discard piles.  Trash piles however can be counted and looked through.

[rrenaud]

From Donald himself.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=876.25

It is not up to any rulebook to say that you can't use a memory aid; rather it is up to the rulebook to specifically allow it, or else you can't use one. It doesn't matter how much the game for you is not about this memorization, how much the memory thing seems tangential to whatever fun the game provides; you do not get to use anything other than your brain to handle that memorization, unless of course you are explicitly playing a variant. You also do not get to - and this is important - scrawl notes to yourself on your belly using your own blood.

[questioneer]

Hmmm...lol- answered by Donald X in his own vague, unsure, silly way.

So is it yes or no???

I messaged him already- hopefully I can get a straight answer as far as tournaments are concerned.

I guess according to this quote that he thinks one should not use paper, pencil, counting dice or mats right???  I know that disappoints a lot of the online players who are used to those type of gauges.

[rrenaud]

If you are going to play by the book, it's a definite no.  There is no ambiguity about it.

He just says sometimes maybe people want to play variants, and he is fine with that, as long as everyone who is playing is fine with it.

[Donald X.]

Hmmm...lol- answered by Donald X in his own vague, unsure, silly way.

So is it yes or no???

I do not see anything remotely vague about what I said before, but can repeat it for you: you do not get to track information on paper etc.

[questioneer]

Great...just making sure...it was unclear from the quote- at least to me.

Thanks for the quick response by PM also.

[questioneer]

If you are going to play by the book, it's a definite no.  There is no ambiguity about it.

He just says sometimes maybe people want to play variants, and he is fine with that, as long as everyone who is playing is fine with it.

Ah I see now...what I meant is that I need to know what would be proper to use in a "tournament" setting.  It seems he is pretty open-ended about this, but now that its cleared up I can move forward with improvements.

thanks

[elkabong]

From Donald himself.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=876.25

It is not up to any rulebook to say that you can't use a memory aid; rather it is up to the rulebook to specifically allow it, or else you can't use one. It doesn't matter how much the game for you is not about this memorization, how much the memory thing seems tangential to whatever fun the game provides; you do not get to use anything other than your brain to handle that memorization, unless of course you are explicitly playing a variant. You also do not get to - and this is important - scrawl notes to yourself on your belly using your own blood.

Funny, you know, I wasn't really raising it as an issue, really just trying to identify who the "Invincible Overlord" was.   Have I identified him correctly?   

As to the playmat / scorepads in play...  They didn't really bother me, although I prefer to play against people who don't use them, so I'm good with the whole ruling here.  I do see where these things come from -- it's absolutely rife in Isotropic.

On another related note, I think it's a great sign for the Official online Dominion that counters are not supported.       We all knew that bots were in use at Isotropic, so when they implemented an official counter, it wasn't unexpected, and actually just added some transparency to a process that we already knew existed.    I'm not sure how they stop bots from the Online Dominion (maybe, quite possibly they just can't), but at least it won't be "in the open", like it is at Isotropic, because that's really what's happened there -- the official counter has led to many people thinking this is an official way to play the game.   

Cheers for the clarification all.