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Author Topic: Weekly Design Contest #126: Seeking an Heir  (Read 2891 times)

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lompeluiten

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #126: Seeking an Heir
« Reply #50 on: August 30, 2021, 06:24:53 am »
0

Huh? There is no tracking problem at all. Play Treasures, buy something, draw to 4.
All you gotta do is what you always gotta do anything: count your Coins.
You are constantly checking the change halfway your turn.
True that. In Dominion you gotta constantly remember how many Actions, Buys and Coins you have. Throne Room variants lead to an actual tracking mess because they influence all 3 variables.

Souk does not unless you wanna argue that subtracting is significantly more difficult than adding.
So you add something you have to track that you dont used to have to track… but what for?
You always gotta count your Coins. With Throne Rooms or cards that conditionally provide Coins or cost reduction it becomes more complicated that simply counting all the Coin symbols on all cards.
So your notion that this card somehow leads to a huge tracking mess that is totally unheard of is plain false.
The argument is that you have to do more tracking, while it does not provide satisfying gameplay. Unnecessary complexity where +buy will do just fine.
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Timinou

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #126: Seeking an Heir
« Reply #51 on: August 30, 2021, 09:20:59 am »
+2

Huh? There is no tracking problem at all. Play Treasures, buy something, draw to 4.
All you gotta do is what you always gotta do anything: count your Coins.
You are constantly checking the change halfway your turn.
True that. In Dominion you gotta constantly remember how many Actions, Buys and Coins you have. Throne Room variants lead to an actual tracking mess because they influence all 3 variables.

Souk does not unless you wanna argue that subtracting is significantly more difficult than adding.
So you add something you have to track that you dont used to have to track… but what for?
You always gotta count your Coins. With Throne Rooms or cards that conditionally provide Coins or cost reduction it becomes more complicated that simply counting all the Coin symbols on all cards.
So your notion that this card somehow leads to a huge tracking mess that is totally unheard of is plain false.
The argument is that you have to do more tracking, while it does not provide satisfying gameplay. Unnecessary complexity where +buy will do just fine.

I'm not sure about the satisfying gameplay part since it hasn't been playtested, but I think the option for gain-and-play (which the drawing ability of the card also enables) doesn't make this unnecessarily complex.  Playing a Souk when you've drawn your deck will let you buy a card before your Buy phase and play it, which seems pretty worthwhile to me.  It's hardly a niche benefit since this is something you can do in any reasonably strong Kingdom.  There are of course inherent trade-offs (and in my view, necessary ones to keep this from being overpowered), and you may not take advantage of the extra buy each time you play a Souk (just as you aren't necessarily using the discard-for-benefit ability of Artificer each time you play it).   
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #126: Seeking an Heir
« Reply #52 on: August 30, 2021, 11:57:43 am »
+2

Huh? There is no tracking problem at all. Play Treasures, buy something, draw to 4.
All you gotta do is what you always gotta do anything: count your Coins.
You are constantly checking the change halfway your turn.
True that. In Dominion you gotta constantly remember how many Actions, Buys and Coins you have. Throne Room variants lead to an actual tracking mess because they influence all 3 variables.

Souk does not unless you wanna argue that subtracting is significantly more difficult than adding.
So you add something you have to track that you dont used to have to track… but what for?
You always gotta count your Coins. With Throne Rooms or cards that conditionally provide Coins or cost reduction it becomes more complicated that simply counting all the Coin symbols on all cards.
So your notion that this card somehow leads to a huge tracking mess that is totally unheard of is plain false.
The argument is that you have to do more tracking, while it does not provide satisfying gameplay. Unnecessary complexity where +buy will do just fine.
I totally disagree. Mid-turn gaining is, at least to me, what makes a card that would otherwise be fairly bland interesting.
It is in this respect similar to to Artificer vs. Market. The latter is simple whereas the former is more of a high-skill card.
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spineflu

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #126: Seeking an Heir
« Reply #53 on: August 30, 2021, 12:00:35 pm »
+2

Huh? There is no tracking problem at all. Play Treasures, buy something, draw to 4.
All you gotta do is what you always gotta do anything: count your Coins.
You are constantly checking the change halfway your turn.
True that. In Dominion you gotta constantly remember how many Actions, Buys and Coins you have. Throne Room variants lead to an actual tracking mess because they influence all 3 variables.

Souk does not unless you wanna argue that subtracting is significantly more difficult than adding.
So you add something you have to track that you dont used to have to track… but what for?
You always gotta count your Coins. With Throne Rooms or cards that conditionally provide Coins or cost reduction it becomes more complicated that simply counting all the Coin symbols on all cards.
So your notion that this card somehow leads to a huge tracking mess that is totally unheard of is plain false.
The argument is that you have to do more tracking, while it does not provide satisfying gameplay. Unnecessary complexity where +buy will do just fine.
I totally disagree. Mid-turn gaining is, at least to me, what makes a card that would otherwise be fairly bland interesting.
It is in this respect similar to to Artificer vs. Market. The latter is simple whereas the former is more of a high-skill card.

yeah in a lot of ways, the highlight of Souk is giving access to "when buy" effects like Spices' coffers mid-turn, so you can use them during the buy phase proper. There's not a ton of these interactions, since there's not a ton of when-buy triggers that'd care about this, but there is novelty with that and it interacts well with its heirloom.
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lompeluiten

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #126: Seeking an Heir
« Reply #54 on: August 30, 2021, 02:01:05 pm »
0

Huh? There is no tracking problem at all. Play Treasures, buy something, draw to 4.
All you gotta do is what you always gotta do anything: count your Coins.
You are constantly checking the change halfway your turn.
True that. In Dominion you gotta constantly remember how many Actions, Buys and Coins you have. Throne Room variants lead to an actual tracking mess because they influence all 3 variables.

Souk does not unless you wanna argue that subtracting is significantly more difficult than adding.
So you add something you have to track that you dont used to have to track… but what for?
You always gotta count your Coins. With Throne Rooms or cards that conditionally provide Coins or cost reduction it becomes more complicated that simply counting all the Coin symbols on all cards.
So your notion that this card somehow leads to a huge tracking mess that is totally unheard of is plain false.
The argument is that you have to do more tracking, while it does not provide satisfying gameplay. Unnecessary complexity where +buy will do just fine.
I totally disagree. Mid-turn gaining is, at least to me, what makes a card that would otherwise be fairly bland interesting.
It is in this respect similar to to Artificer vs. Market. The latter is simple whereas the former is more of a high-skill card.

yeah in a lot of ways, the highlight of Souk is giving access to "when buy" effects like Spices' coffers mid-turn, so you can use them during the buy phase proper. There's not a ton of these interactions, since there's not a ton of when-buy triggers that'd care about this, but there is novelty with that and it interacts well with its heirloom.
That is what i said with “too niche”: there are to few cards that make this out of secuence buy fase worth while. That is what this card effectively does: make an extra buy fase with 1 card and return to your action fase. (And then maybe draw some cards). There is little strenght in that effect, other then the +buy in most kingdoms.

(And plus 1 buy supports the heirloom even an pinch better)
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #126: Seeking an Heir
« Reply #55 on: August 30, 2021, 02:19:53 pm »
+1

Huh? There is no tracking problem at all. Play Treasures, buy something, draw to 4.
All you gotta do is what you always gotta do anything: count your Coins.
You are constantly checking the change halfway your turn.
True that. In Dominion you gotta constantly remember how many Actions, Buys and Coins you have. Throne Room variants lead to an actual tracking mess because they influence all 3 variables.

Souk does not unless you wanna argue that subtracting is significantly more difficult than adding.
So you add something you have to track that you dont used to have to track… but what for?
You always gotta count your Coins. With Throne Rooms or cards that conditionally provide Coins or cost reduction it becomes more complicated that simply counting all the Coin symbols on all cards.
So your notion that this card somehow leads to a huge tracking mess that is totally unheard of is plain false.
The argument is that you have to do more tracking, while it does not provide satisfying gameplay. Unnecessary complexity where +buy will do just fine.
I totally disagree. Mid-turn gaining is, at least to me, what makes a card that would otherwise be fairly bland interesting.
It is in this respect similar to to Artificer vs. Market. The latter is simple whereas the former is more of a high-skill card.

yeah in a lot of ways, the highlight of Souk is giving access to "when buy" effects like Spices' coffers mid-turn, so you can use them during the buy phase proper. There's not a ton of these interactions, since there's not a ton of when-buy triggers that'd care about this, but there is novelty with that and it interacts well with its heirloom.
That is what i said with “too niche”: there are to few cards that make this out of secuence buy fase worth while. That is what this card effectively does: make an extra buy fase with 1 card and return to your action fase. (And then maybe draw some cards). There is little strenght in that effect, other then the +buy in most kingdoms.

(And plus 1 buy supports the heirloom even an pinch better)
This is totally false. Gaining engine pieces mid-turn (and drawing into them) is pretty useful.
It is not like this is something novel, you can do this with plain old Workshop.
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #126: Seeking an Heir
« Reply #56 on: August 30, 2021, 07:52:50 pm »
+1

Submissions closed!

Results will be posted shortly.
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #126: Seeking an Heir
« Reply #57 on: August 30, 2021, 09:19:23 pm »
+6

Results
I mocked up any cards that didn't already have mockups (and that I could find good art for). I made sure to use the exact same wording as the creators did.


Spectacle
Fireworks
--
X-tra
A Night version of a Worker's Village that returns to your Action phase. A very creative entry that looks like a lot of fun to play with. Great job on this one, X-tra.



Port Clerk
Quill
--
Xen3k
An Action card that gives + for each unique Treasure you play this turn (extra + for one-shots, since it only counts Treasures in play). I think it would seem pretty sad for if it didn't come with an Heirloom to boost both the unique Treasures in use and the unique Treasures you start with. However, the Heirloom that it comes with balances it beautifully.



Road
Shortcut
--
4est
I think this is far too weak. Even with Shortcut, you need to play a lot of them for them to be consistently worthwhile. Especially since there are only 10 Roads; by the time they're reasonably useful for more than just being plain cantrips, the pile's empty or nearly there. And in 3 and 4 player games, you're decently unlikely to even get enough Roads for them to be useful.



Bridgestone
Stone
--
majiponi
I don't really have much to say about this. A pure vanilla card isn't exactly exciting.



Night Drive
Carriage
--
faust
I think this will gain too many Horses too easily; in the Secret History for Menagerie, Donald said he tried a card that terminally gained 3 Horses, and just that was too many. Especially since this only trashes from play, so it'll mainly trash Coppers and cards that cost . Plus it can always just trash itself to non-terminally gain 5 Horses.



Royal Signet
Weighted Coin
--
lompeluiten
I don't really find this much more interesting than Throne Room. Granted, Throne Room is one of the most exciting base set cards in my opinion, so it's still decent. But it's also kind of a boring version of Counterfeit.



Lightning Rod
Lightning
--
mathdude
A very unique Reaction trigger with a very unique top. But, it's kinda sad that half the vanilla bonuses it can give (one of which it always gives) is useless when an opponent triggers it. It's not bad, but there were other submissions I thought looked more fun to use.



Labor Guild
Leverage
--
spineflu
Either Merchant Guild or Merchant Guild but with Villagers depending on whether the cost in of the bought card is even or odd. Even without the presence of Leverage to help make even-costs odd and vice-versa, I think this is too good compared to Merchant Guild to share the same cost.



Chop Shop
Burglary Tools
--
emtzalex
I agree with segura that this is way too good, for the same reasons. I also don't really see the reason for it being an Heirloom card (other than the obvious "that's the prompt"), since Burglary Tools either just decreases the cost of both the trashed card and the gained card (thus doing nothing for its Remodeling ability) or makes Chop Shop even more OP by allowing it to Expand your cards.



Jeweller
Emerald
--
AJL828
A very neat variable Cantrip gainer. Like Port Clerk, the Heirloom helps balance this card out wonderfully, but even more so. Another excellent submission.



Woodsman
Lumber
--
anordinaryman
As you pointed out, being a Reserve card amps up the strategic implications of this card dramatically. I love it.



Night Worker
Torch
--
NoMoreFun
A stronger combination of Armory and Ironworks. Not bad, but there were more interesting submissions.



Shipwright
Mooring
--
xyz123
Takes two Shipwrights to be able to Shipwright a , but one has to be played during the Night before you play a different one in a later turn (during which you call the Shipwright). Seems like a pretty huge pain for the effect you get, and the below-line ability is otherwise pretty niche imo since it doesn't give you any vanilla bonuses like Villa or Cavalry do. Plus I don't really like that you can return to your Action phase in the middle of resolving a Treasure card.



Brooch
Clasp
--
JW
A Treasure trasher that can only trash Estates if combined with Clasp. Feels kinda uninspired since Goat exists, especially since Goat is an Heirloom.



Souk
Lantern
--
Timinou
A very interesting non-terminal DtX that also allows gain-and-play shenanigans. I like it. My only worry is that it may be too strong in a big money strategy.



Record
Quill Pen
-
Aquila
A Scheme Event variant. I'm not sure it needs the cost restriction to be balanced; Scheme only needs to be bought once, and can potentially be played every turn.



Testing Room
Prototype
--
The Alchemist
Coincidentally very similar to Souk, which was posted shortly before it. I'm afraid Souk did this concept better imo.



Carnival
Beer
--
grep
I love the bottom part of Carnival. However, the top part isn't so exciting. Since it's the type of card you'd generally want to spam, I think it could just be a Market and play out very similarly if not largely the same.



Another batch of excellent submissions.

Honorable Mentions (Unordered): Port Clerk/Quill by Xen3k, Lightning Rod/Lightning by mathdude, Souk/Lantern by Timinou, and Carnival/Beer by grep

Runners-up:
3rd place: Jeweller/Emerald by AJL828
2nd place: Woodsman/Lumber by anordinaryman

Winner: Spectacle/Fireworks by X-tra
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All of my fan card mockups are credited to Shard of Honor and his Dominion Card Image Generator (the new fork).
If you're having font issues with the generator, click this link and click on the button to request temporary access to the demo server that loads the font.

X-tra

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #126: Seeking an Heir
« Reply #58 on: August 31, 2021, 09:07:59 am »
+1

Yeah boi! While not the most creative of the entries submitted this week, I am glad you enjoyed Spectacle enough to give it the win. Thank you Gubump! :)

With that being said, contest 127 is ready and posted.
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emtzalex

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #126: Seeking an Heir
« Reply #59 on: August 31, 2021, 01:09:45 pm »
0

I think that it is too good. Non-terminal, trashing from play, token bonuses look far stronger than the Cursing/topdecking of Replace.
Especially trashing from play. You can Mine your Coppers into Silvers with the Heirloom in play and you can Remodel PLAYED Golds into Provinces.

Thanks for the feedback, segura. I do really appreciate it. Unfortunately I got slammed with work last week and was not able to come up with an improved version of my card (I worked on it for a bit, but could not come up with something else I really liked).
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Thanks to Shard of Honor for his Extended Version of the Dominion Card Image Generator, which I use to mock up my fan cards, and to Violet CLM, who made the original.
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