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Author Topic: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 5)  (Read 174301 times)

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Jimmmmm

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 5)
« Reply #2100 on: October 19, 2021, 10:59:21 pm »

Are you seriously arguing that scum might consider not killing the IC?
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mathdude

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 5)
« Reply #2101 on: October 19, 2021, 11:20:13 pm »

I'm not arguing anything. I'm taking nothing as a given until it happens. I expected Didds to die first, not MiX (though that was really a toss-up). Then I expected Didds to die before e, and was surprised there, though I guess Swowl flipping full strongman and my push that e could have been full cop probably influenced that.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 5)
« Reply #2102 on: October 19, 2021, 11:32:21 pm »

I mean, you're all over the place.

today he just looks like he's setting up for who to kill tonight.

This is an argument.


Didds will be killed Tonight.

Of course she will. If you get me exiled tonight (at this point, votes from you, faust, and possibly joth seem most likely), you wouldn't want her still around tomorrow to vote for you again tomorrow.

This is also an argument, and completely contradicts your previous argument.
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faust

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 5)
« Reply #2103 on: October 20, 2021, 12:42:17 am »

I think finding someone who is pushing you scummy is a very towny reaction, so I think math suspecting faust makes sense. Jimmm on the other hand is cozying up to faust in a way that makes me find him scummy.

I think my preference is still to vote for Jimmm, but I need to think about it some more.
I'm going to need a signficant amount of convincing if you want me to vote Jimmmmm over math.

Will you reread Jimm in the same way that you reread math?
No, Im sufficiently confident that math is scum.
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Dylan32

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 5)
« Reply #2104 on: October 20, 2021, 01:14:44 am »

Vote Count 5.1

mathdude (1): faust
Jimmmmm (1): mathdude
Not Voting (3): jotheonah, WestCoastDidds, Jimmmmm

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to exile. Day 5 will end Friday, October 22, 2021, at 4:00 pm forum time.
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Forum Mafia Record - Wins: 14 - NM9, M97, RMM41, M99, M102, M104, M119, M126, RMM56, M133, M134, RMM58, RMM59, RMM61, RMM60; Losses 15 - RMM37, M89, M94, M95, M96, M100, RMM47 M109, M110, M120, M127, M129, M131, M132, M136; MVPs: 1 - NM9

faust

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 5)
« Reply #2105 on: October 20, 2021, 03:57:49 am »

I think finding someone who is pushing you scummy is a very towny reaction, so I think math suspecting faust makes sense. Jimmm on the other hand is cozying up to faust in a way that makes me find him scummy.

I think my preference is still to vote for Jimmm, but I need to think about it some more.
I'm going to need a signficant amount of convincing if you want me to vote Jimmmmm over math.

Will you reread Jimm in the same way that you reread math?
No, Im sufficiently confident that math is scum.
Plus it's kind of hard to stay motivated when the IC completely ignores what you're saying.
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WestCoastDidds

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 5)
« Reply #2106 on: October 20, 2021, 08:31:13 am »

I think finding someone who is pushing you scummy is a very towny reaction, so I think math suspecting faust makes sense. Jimmm on the other hand is cozying up to faust in a way that makes me find him scummy.

I think my preference is still to vote for Jimmm, but I need to think about it some more.
I'm going to need a signficant amount of convincing if you want me to vote Jimmmmm over math.

Will you reread Jimm in the same way that you reread math?
No, Im sufficiently confident that math is scum.
Plus it's kind of hard to stay motivated when the IC completely ignores what you're saying.

I’m not completely ignoring what you’re saying, and I apologize if I seem to be disengaged with you. When I read your math reread synopsis, it seemed to me that it mostly boiled down to the scummmiest thing he has done is continue to suspect you and/or lack a concrete opinion. Joth followed this up with an unhelpful “yep, seems about right”

And at the end of it all, you concluded with

So all in all... math is incredibly scummy. I came into this thinking Jimmmmm was the more likely scum, now I've changed my mind. I will still reread Jimmmmm of course, who know maybe he was even more scummy.

So, I think it’s a fair question to ask if your plans had changed.

I haven’t had time to do a reread of Jimmmm so my feeling about him at the moment is based on how he has interacted with folks this games, lots of questions, few conclusions, and how low key he’s been in response to pressure. It’s very pro. I’m all thinking about the LL kill N1 which seems like a pro move. Finally, when I was scum with math in the dwarf game, he was all about bussing and being suspicious of his buddies, and I’m not sure he’s done that here. But this is all thoughts and feels, which isn’t much to base a case on.
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WestCoastDidds

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 5)
« Reply #2107 on: October 20, 2021, 08:33:33 am »

Is there anything I can address for you Didds?

Not yet! I’m going to try to gather my thoughts during my office hours. It’s the time in the semester when students have not much interest in all in actually seeing the faculty, so I think I’ll have an hour or two to myself. :)
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faust

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 5)
« Reply #2108 on: October 20, 2021, 09:40:35 am »

I’m not completely ignoring what you’re saying, and I apologize if I seem to be disengaged with you. When I read your math reread synopsis, it seemed to me that it mostly boiled down to the scummmiest thing he has done is continue to suspect you and/or lack a concrete opinion. Joth followed this up with an unhelpful “yep, seems about right”
I guess this is due to it being a reread rather than a proper case, but these are definitely not the things I wanted people to take away from it. But still I don't really know where it is coming from. I barely even mentioned math suspecting me, and in fact that suspicion was a major factor in why I didn't find him that scummy before starting the reread.

I would ask you to please look at the interactions math had with iguana on D1/D2, and then look at the actual scummiest thing he's done, revealing that he has knowledge only scum could have:
The other thing is the LaLight kill N1. It has "trying to avoid the Doctor target" written all over it. However... that would only be a concern if scum doesn't have a full Strongman. That means that there are at most three non-T letters in the setup. And we already have

E - EFHW
M - MiX/Didds
E/C - Swowl

There isn't room for another Cop.

Are you still on this set of beliefs for setup?  Is it possible that e is a cop and there are less T's than expected?  Might the scum have a strongman and they went after LL for a different reason?  Or is this what you would have us believe?
This is very telling I feel like. "Less Ts than expected", "scum has the Strongman" - all things scum knew at the time were true.

And at the end of it all, you concluded with

So all in all... math is incredibly scummy. I came into this thinking Jimmmmm was the more likely scum, now I've changed my mind. I will still reread Jimmmmm of course, who know maybe he was even more scummy.

So, I think it’s a fair question to ask if your plans had changed.
It not unfair, but I thought that my vote for math came with the implication that my mind was made up. This post that mathdude made is a major scumslip in my eyes:
That concerns me. Because honestly, if you guys just exile Jimmmmm tomorrow based on MiX and WCD's discussion, I'm not confident you'll win - the exiles needs to be Jimmmmm and faust.
Using "you" instead of "we" when referring to town, planning two exiles ahead - that is scum stuff. Town should think that there is a decent chance to get a win today, scum can only win with 2 misexiles.

I haven’t had time to do a reread of Jimmmm so my feeling about him at the moment is based on how he has interacted with folks this games, lots of questions, few conclusions, and how low key he’s been in response to pressure. It’s very pro. I’m all thinking about the LL kill N1 which seems like a pro move. Finally, when I was scum with math in the dwarf game, he was all about bussing and being suspicious of his buddies, and I’m not sure he’s done that here. But this is all thoughts and feels, which isn’t much to base a case on.
See that sort of stuff is why I feel like you didn't read my posts properly. Otherwise you would have noticed that math has bussed both iguana and Swowl.
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jotheonah

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 5)
« Reply #2109 on: October 20, 2021, 11:37:02 am »

I'm ready to vote, but I wouldn't want to enable a quickhammer before our IC has had a chance to say her fill (she is definitely dying tonight, it would be absolute insanity for scum to kill anyone else).

Didds, as soon as you give the go ahead I'll vote for math.
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WestCoastDidds

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 5)
« Reply #2110 on: October 20, 2021, 02:14:56 pm »

See that sort of stuff is why I feel like you didn't read my posts properly. Otherwise you would have noticed that math has bussed both iguana and Swowl.

I see him voting for them, but not skewering them like he did when he was actively trying to create distance.

At the end of day, it really doesn't matter where I am at. If faust and Joth thinks its mathdude, then that is what will happen. 
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jotheonah

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 5)
« Reply #2111 on: October 20, 2021, 02:44:05 pm »

See that sort of stuff is why I feel like you didn't read my posts properly. Otherwise you would have noticed that math has bussed both iguana and Swowl.

I see him voting for them, but not skewering them like he did when he was actively trying to create distance.

At the end of day, it really doesn't matter where I am at. If faust and Joth thinks its mathdude, then that is what will happen.

Idk. I'm extremely persuadable apparently.
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WestCoastDidds

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 5)
« Reply #2112 on: October 20, 2021, 02:57:30 pm »

faust's mind is made up, though, and he has more concrete reasons than I do. I haven't had a minute of actual free time to read today, so that will have to wait. But I also get not wanting to wait.
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WestCoastDidds

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 5)
« Reply #2113 on: October 20, 2021, 03:40:02 pm »

Okay, I am starting my Jim reread now. Give me an hour or so.
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WestCoastDidds

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 5)
« Reply #2114 on: October 20, 2021, 04:09:57 pm »

D1, friendly Jimmm

Votes for EFHW after I make a case for her

Some exchanges with faust along these lines:
I am leading us down?

Yep. You have the most posts and zero helpful content. The only conclusion one can come to trying to analyse your game is "Why is he refusing to contribute?" So we either have to go ahead and give you that free pass, or argue with you about how anti-Town you're being.

faust points out that Jimmm isn't moving day forward

In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.
Oh yeah, and now a policy vote! I'm sure that is going to move the game forward.

And this sums up their interaction nicely
I'm not refusing to talk about my reads though.

Alright cool. So why the vote on me? Why do you think MiX is scum? Why did you vote for joth and iguana, and why change your mind? Would you go back to them, and why or why not? Any other reads, and how did you come to them?
I was about to write a snarky response, but it's no use escalating this. I do not deny that there are things that I refuse to talk about. I am sure that there are things that you refuse to talk about, too, otherwise you would tell me your role now. The only difference is where we draw the line. i am willing to discuss some things when I feel it is beneficial to discuss them. Someone I think is scum wanting to know is not grounds for me to change my mind though.

This is interesting to me and makes Jimmm feel more town
You can respond if you want.  But I was more interested in other people's opinions of your meta.  As has already been mentioned this thread (regarding faust or joth, I forget which)... when someone knows their own meta well enough to comment on it, it does seem to make it NAI.  But if you can tell me which of those options (or another option) it is, that can help, I guess.

Yeah I agree with that sentiment, but I'll weigh in.

I don't think level of effort is particularly alignment-indicative for me. I might be slightly less likely to be lurky as scum overall, because I feel a responsibility to my teammate/s. But I've definitely had games both ways in which I've put in a lot of effort. The problem is that when I fall behind I have a really hard time catching up.

I think as scum under pressure my goal is generally to ignore the pressure and try to emulate my Town self by doing productive-looking re-reads etc. I don't recall ever OMGUSing or going hard after someone because they were going hard after me as scum.

If I was scum in this game, I would feel the same about faust's strategy but I highly doubt I would have argued with him anywhere near as much as I have.

because I think I see careful maneuvering that an experienced player who hasn't played for a bit might try. Pick a fight, be righteous about how town should play, buddy someone who voted you (me), and seem to move on with a level head.

Nothing about my game has been careful. I am definitely capable of playing the careful scum game. Picking a fight with faust of all people is not the way to do that.

Low key suggests that if we are going to exile a lurker, that it should be e.

He votes for math going into the deadline

Vote Count 1.Final

Jimmmmm (2): mathdude, jotheonah
mathdude (5): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, gkrieg13, Jimmmmm, EFHW
MiX (1): LaLight
jotheonah (4): faust, MiX, WestCoastDidds, Swowl,

Not Voting (0):

With 12 alive, it took 7 to exile.

Conclusons... Jimmm was more towny and engaged than I had remembered. In his tussle with faust, I thought fuast looked scummier. His points about not taking on faust if he is scum are well taken.
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WestCoastDidds

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 5)
« Reply #2115 on: October 20, 2021, 04:10:22 pm »

color fail! Sorry!
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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 5)
« Reply #2116 on: October 20, 2021, 04:26:21 pm »

Day 2!

I'm inclined to think mathdude is Town. He had a very similar reaction to joth as I did, and I'm not sure that it's a reaction that someone who knew joth's alignment would have.

I find joth either definite scum, or definite town... but I have no idea which.

it's either really Towny or really scummy, and I can't put my finger on which.

(Even though my post is immediately after mathdude's,  I hadn't actually read his post properly until after the Day was over.)

A funny little exchange with Swowl
So Swowl, you're basing your vote on joth, who you fairly recently said you didn't think was scum, on the assumption that the wagons weren't Town v Town and the unconfirmed alignments of those on the wagons?

You would make a great lawyer.
Yes, that is what I am saying. It was also day 1, so there were no confirmed alignments.

Hhmm...

And also that we can be certain enough of this that we should only consider those same wagons for Today's exile?

We're talking the difference between probable and possible. Discussions so far today have been focused on what's stated as "probable". It would be tough to crunch numbers on such a situation, since it's not perfectly random, independent events. We're talking interactions, teammates, time zones and online times, etc.

Probable is helpful D1, especially toward end of day. And if we don't sort stuff out through 5 or 6 days in D2, maybe we look back at "probable" EoD2 as well. But tunneling on it for 7 days is not helpful.

Let's look at what else is possible. Open up the conversation. I'll leave my vote for now - because it's possible he's scum. I don't know yet how probable, but that will likely sort itself out over the next couple days.

I'm not talking about possible vs probable. Anything that I don't know to be impossible is possible. "Certain" may have been the wrong word - I meant "consider sufficiently probable". I'm not convinced that Swowl's theory is more probable than random, let alone sufficiently probable. And I also have to weigh it against the fact that I think mathdude and joth are each some amount more likely than average to be Town.

Then he posts the super cool charts!  Does scum make a super cool chart? I don't know... its a lot of work.

This is a coherent case on Swowl
Unsurprisingly, I think joth makes some good points about Swowl, but I was like, "Does scum actually do that?" That is, come out as Swowl did Day 2, without acknowledgement of his prior post about joth.

I thought a bit more about the no-exile. Generally, Town wants to exile unless there's a reason not to. So how does scum feel about it if the main wagons are TvT? Would they rather make sure one of them goes through, or are they happier with the no-exile? With a no-exile, they get a free kill (offset by any Cops Town might have), but risk coming out worse if Day 2 results in a successful exile. But if those same TvT wagons come up again, they're laughing.

Then I realised, this is exactly what Swowl was pushing. And increasing their activity by advocating a theory-based exile makes sense for a lurky scum who knows they need to start contributing more but isn't sure what reads they can justify.

I'm not suggesting scum purposefully allowed a no-exile; I don't see the evidence for that. But if it was TvT, which I'm inclined to think is likely, scum definitely want people to assume it wasn't.

Vote: Swowl

Later votes gkrieg to consolidate

Vote Count 2.Final

jotheonah (1): Swowl
gkrieg13 (6): faust, iguanaiguana, Jimmmmm, mathdude, MiX, WestCoastDidds
WestCoastDidds (4): 2.71828....., EFHW, gkrieg13, jotheonah

Not Voting (0):

Conclusions: that Swowl case was prescient
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WestCoastDidds

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 5)
« Reply #2117 on: October 20, 2021, 04:33:31 pm »

Day 3 starts with him having a ton of questions for me

Continues pushing swowl. Also scummy: faust and iguana

Never gets around to voting

Vote Count 3.Final

iguanaiguana (5): 2.71828....., Swowl, faust, jotheonah, iguanaiguana
2.71828..... (1): mathdude
Not Voting (3): MiX, Jimmmmm, WestCoastDidds

Conclusions: none
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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 5)
« Reply #2118 on: October 20, 2021, 05:01:21 pm »

Day 4

Quick rundown of remaining candidates:

Swowl/faust - My biggest suspects. Will take some further re-reading to determine whether faust is likely to bus his partner Swowl in the way he did Yesterday.

math/joth - I've been of the belief that each of these is Town, but PoE may call for me to rethink that.

e - Most likely Town.

Hmmm...
Okay I have to say, the faust/joth discussion is doing a pretty good job of convincing me that it's Swowl/math. It's hard to shake the nagging "It can't be that easy" feeling, but that definitely seems to be the Occam's razor solution.

#1955 is a long post about iguana/math bussing each other

#1986 long post about how does not see Swowl and iguna as partners

Still very suspicious of faust

Vote Count 4.Final

Swowl (4): faust, 2.71828....., mathdude, WestCoastDidds
Not Voting (3): Swowl, Jimmmmm, jotheonah


That was fast. No conclusions, really. But I am not finding him as scummy as I had remembered.
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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 5)
« Reply #2119 on: October 20, 2021, 05:04:14 pm »

okay, I made it pretty far, but now I have to go to a meeting.

I'll finish in the morning. I'll say now that I am finding Jimmm less scummy than I had anticipated. I feel a lot better about a mathdude vote, but I want to go back and see what MiX said, too, in the QT after his reread and I'll report back on that.
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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 5)
« Reply #2120 on: October 20, 2021, 05:40:20 pm »

I know it doesn't matter much at this point, since it seems enough of you have made up your minds. But I do know the setup isn't EECMTT. that's why I've been focused on the setup the whole time since claims, and why I hounded e so much.

It's ECMMMT. I tried to save Didds the night MiX died since EFHW hadn't used the 1-shot save yet. In hindsight, I should have waited another night. But with me evading exile twice, I figured scum would leave MiX alive to push for exiling me the next day.
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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 5)
« Reply #2121 on: October 20, 2021, 05:44:16 pm »

Wait, are you claiming UB?
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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 3)
« Reply #2122 on: October 20, 2021, 05:49:54 pm »

I guess you are. There's no way Town lies here:

There have been a few people say to continue. So let's continue the claims.

I'm VT. That's why near EoD2 I said it would be better to exile me than to end up with another no exile day... there were enough opinions about me that hopefully it would have helped solve some things.
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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 5)
« Reply #2123 on: October 20, 2021, 05:51:44 pm »

Wait, are you claiming UB?

I was VT after the save was used, so there was no need to claim it at that point. It hid the fact that there might have been another possible PR during claims. And the truth would have been revealed upon my death anyway, or I could reveal at an opportune time... like if I was about to be exiled at lylo. I know it's not quite lylo today, but now that I'm this far in, I'd like to be in until the end, so I'm revealing the truth.
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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 5)
« Reply #2124 on: October 20, 2021, 05:54:50 pm »

If it was the reason you hounded e, wouldn't you have thought everyone else needed that information too? That's literally the point of a massclaim.
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