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Author Topic: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 5)  (Read 177695 times)

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faust

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #1875 on: October 08, 2021, 06:24:49 am »

also also faust is a good bet either way. because if e IS town it's pretty suspicious how far faust went to sew doubt about his towniness.
I'm very confused. What is this about? And why is it suspicious anyway?
Oh I read it again and I think I get it now. By "his townieness" you're not referring to mine but to e's.

I'm not sure that is a good scum move there. I mean if a Cop claims a guilty result, almost all of the time the guilty result is exiled. I don't think I could have won that particular battle, so it only paints me in a bad light. Better to cut your losses there as scum I'd think.

It's worth pointing out that in the scenario where both e and Swowl are town, scum would have already known that Swowl wasn't a Cop after e's claim. But that revelation was what pushed me over to iguana. If I'm scum there then I built a case on e that I knew from the get-go was going to fall apart.
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jotheonah

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #1876 on: October 08, 2021, 06:35:36 am »

Here’s the thing about faust: scum or town, his PR reads are genuine. He genuinely spotted the masonry and he genuinely thought Swowl had crumbed cop. I’m willing to take that as a given just based on the genuineness of his interactions and posts around those topics.

scum!faust is way more likely to be looking for PR crumbs, so there’s that.

town!faust is more likely to share those reads with the class, especially if he thinks they solve the game, so there’s that.

Outing the masons, as many have said, seems NAI— once scum!faust knows they exist it doesn’t matter if he tells or not, they’re just ICs waiting to happen and telling it early gives some town cred (somehow, I know this seems like a contradiction with my saying it’s NAI, but I think at the time it did seem towny).

But I get stuck on the cop thing. The town narrative is straightforward: town!faust is skeptical of e’s cop claim because he thinks there’s another cop about to claim, and he’s said as much, which would make e’s claim a pre-emptive counterclaim, a perfectly cromulent scum move. And a cop and a 1-shot cop is at this point unlikely to impossible (I suck at understanding this set up so someone else can clarify which). So scum!faust rejects e’s cop claim out of the gate but then comes around on it when Swowl claims VT. faust genuinely claims to have no insight on whether e would choose to fake-investigate a partner or a towny, which is fair.

Ok, so that’s town!faust, it all seems to make sense. Here’s scum!faust and town!e:

Remember I said his reads are genuine, so he still thinks Swowl is going to claim cop. Suddenly, e claims cop. That’s not the cop claim he prepared for and he’s already committed to the Swowl cop read. E has just fingered his partner. Unexpected! Not good! Now he can go all in and bus, which is the go-to scum move here, but scum is playing a good game so far. They only need a couple more misexiles to win. And e’s claim was kind of a mess. So faust decides to see if he can’t push town to disbelieve the cop claim and exile e. Sure it only buys a day and then they’re still coming after iguana, but now the (possibly full and lying) cop is out of the way, town’s got two more scum to catch and few chances, and faust looks fine because the town narrative (above) checks out. He doesn’t know what Swowl’s going to claim at this point, but it behooves him to stick with the previously stated cop read because he knows, as town, that he would still be believing it even if, as scum, he now knows it’s unlikely to be right.

And just for fun, scum!faust and scum!e:

Faust tells his partners in the QT that he’s pretty sure Swowl is a cop and investigated EFHW. He may have investigated others as well, including possibly them. They know a mass claim is a strong possibility day 2. So they hatch a plan. Step 1, NK EFHw so Swowl’s results are less useful and seem more fake. Step 2, get in front of the cop claim with a pre-emptive counterclaim. Ok, says e, I’ll claim cop but what should I claim as my result? One of the dead townies or masons? No, they’ll see right through that. What about a guilty result on a townie? That just creates a 1v1 and the math is bad for us, especially if Swowl has a result on one of us. Clear a partner? No, super bad if Swowl investigated either of us. But incriminate a partner? It’s crazy, but crazy enough to work— unless Swowl investigated e you get an IC. But what if Swowl did investigate e, or there’s some other cop or inconsistency and it falls apart? Well, let’s pile crazy daring on crazy daring. Faust will tell town the whole plan and create so much WIFOM that they’ll be able to ride the confusion out to victory.
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jotheonah

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #1877 on: October 08, 2021, 06:36:35 am »

also also faust is a good bet either way. because if e IS town it's pretty suspicious how far faust went to sew doubt about his towniness.
I'm very confused. What is this about? And why is it suspicious anyway?
Oh I read it again and I think I get it now. By "his townieness" you're not referring to mine but to e's.

I'm not sure that is a good scum move there. I mean if a Cop claims a guilty result, almost all of the time the guilty result is exiled. I don't think I could have won that particular battle, so it only paints me in a bad light. Better to cut your losses there as scum I'd think.

It's worth pointing out that in the scenario where both e and Swowl are town, scum would have already known that Swowl wasn't a Cop after e's claim. But that revelation was what pushed me over to iguana. If I'm scum there then I built a case on e that I knew from the get-go was going to fall apart.

I think you were already committed to your Swowl cop read and you thought it would look suspicious to drop it so easily.
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jotheonah

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #1878 on: October 08, 2021, 06:37:49 am »

Look if I’m ranking my scenarios above in order of likelihood, #3 is the least likely so I’m realizing I gotta drop it. But if I can clear up 1 and 2 I’ll feel way better about this game.
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jotheonah

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #1879 on: October 08, 2021, 06:42:13 am »

So scum!faust rejects e’s cop claim out of the gate but then comes around on it when Swowl claims VT. faust genuinely claims to have no insight on whether e would choose to fake-investigate a partner or a towny, which is fair.


This should say town!faust, sorry.
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faust

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #1880 on: October 08, 2021, 06:45:32 am »

Ok, so that’s town!faust, it all seems to make sense. Here’s scum!faust and town!e:

Remember I said his reads are genuine, so he still thinks Swowl is going to claim cop. Suddenly, e claims cop. That’s not the cop claim he prepared for and he’s already committed to the Swowl cop read. E has just fingered his partner. Unexpected! Not good! Now he can go all in and bus, which is the go-to scum move here, but scum is playing a good game so far. They only need a couple more misexiles to win. And e’s claim was kind of a mess. So faust decides to see if he can’t push town to disbelieve the cop claim and exile e. Sure it only buys a day and then they’re still coming after iguana, but now the (possibly full and lying) cop is out of the way, town’s got two more scum to catch and few chances, and faust looks fine because the town narrative (above) checks out. He doesn’t know what Swowl’s going to claim at this point, but it behooves him to stick with the previously stated cop read because he knows, as town, that he would still be believing it even if, as scum, he now knows it’s unlikely to be right.
This narrative implicitly assumes that Swowl is town. Is there a narrative for scum!faust, town!e, scum!Swowl or does me being scum only work if both e and Swowl are town?
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faust

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #1881 on: October 08, 2021, 06:46:53 am »

No actually, the above doesn't make sense. You claim that scum!me didn't know what Swowl was going to claim, but that is plainly false regardless of Swowl's alignment.
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jotheonah

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #1882 on: October 08, 2021, 06:54:55 am »

No actually, the above doesn't make sense. You claim that scum!me didn't know what Swowl was going to claim, but that is plainly false regardless of Swowl's alignment.

I don’t understand.
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jotheonah

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #1883 on: October 08, 2021, 06:56:49 am »

This narrative implicitly assumes that Swowl is town. Is there a narrative for scum!faust, town!e, scum!Swowl or does me being scum only work if both e and Swowl are town?

My prior that your PR reads are genuine precludes you and Swowl being scum together.

If you’re town and Swowl’s scum I think scenario 1 still works.
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WestCoastDidds

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #1884 on: October 08, 2021, 07:15:44 am »

Good morning!

I’m sorry that No one is awake to chat with you faust. It was good to see the discussion from you and Swowl, though.

I don’t see anyway that Swowl and faust are partners. One advantage of flipping Swowl today is that it would vindicate/incriminate faust, depending. But I also can’t see a scenario where scum hard busses a partner now. There aren’t enough choices.
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WestCoastDidds

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #1885 on: October 08, 2021, 07:16:42 am »

“Cromulent” Joth! Well done, my wordy friend!
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faust

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #1886 on: October 08, 2021, 07:23:35 am »

It's good to spell this out since we know the setup now.

Scum has started the game with the following roles: Roleblocker, 1-shot Strongman, Goon. That outcome means that immediately, they knew the setup was either TTTTXX or TTTXXX (where X stands for an unknwon letter). I.e., there are at most three letters that give town powers.

At start of D3, scum has the following information: There is a 1-shot Doctor and there are Masons. How could that happen?
Masons only happen with M or MMM. But MMM would mean there is no space for other PRs. Since EFHW flipped other PR, it must be M.
So we have TTTMXX.

Now, there are 2 ways to get a 1-shot Doctor: Either DD (giving Doctor + 1-shot Doctor) or E (giving just a 1-shot Doctor). With DD, there would be another PR out there that is a Doctor. With E, the remaining letter could be anything.

Then, e claims Cop (assuming e is town here). A full Cop requires 2 letters: CC (or EEE). But scum already knows there isn't room for that. So e is a 1-shot Cop, which they now know. But then they know the setup: It's TTTMEC (or TTTMEE, which is equivalent). There is no room for another town PR, so after that claim scum knows that all other townies are VTs.

This means that A) at the time after e's claim, scum knew town!Swowl would claim VT B) at the time after e's claim, scum knew he wasn't a full Cop. joth's above narrative says that my decision to push for e's exile was based on not knowing what Swowl would claim and not knowing whether e is a full Cop, but both of these points are proven wrong by the above.
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jotheonah

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #1887 on: October 08, 2021, 07:40:51 am »

This is helpful.

It weakens my case for scum!faust (which is good).

I don’t think it destroys it. It means that you knew Swowl was going to claim VT but, knowing that you wouldn’t know that as town, you had to play-act until he did. The next move would be to re-read and see if there’s any hint of fakery in your interactions around Swowl’s claim.

Also helpful to know that scum knew e was actually 1-shot— this makes it not suspicious that e is still alive.
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WestCoastDidds

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #1888 on: October 08, 2021, 07:48:53 am »

Faust, that is a very clear explanation of how the set up works. Thank you.

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faust

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #1889 on: October 08, 2021, 07:57:03 am »

I don’t think it destroys it. It means that you knew Swowl was going to claim VT but, knowing that you wouldn’t know that as town, you had to play-act until he did. The next move would be to re-read and see if there’s any hint of fakery in your interactions around Swowl’s claim.
This may be true, but I don't think scum!me would have needed to push the e case on doomed pretenses there. I could have

A) built the case in a way that remains intact once Swowl claims if I really wanted to push an e misexile
B) acted as though I believed in there being 2 Cops until Swowl's claim.

Pushing a doomed case on e that would leave me forced to pivot to iguana eventually seems like the worst of both worlds.
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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #1890 on: October 08, 2021, 08:31:21 am »

yeah, a narrative for both faust and me as scum is a bit fantastical.  Easiest explanation is that both faust and I are town.
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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #1891 on: October 08, 2021, 08:35:43 am »

Ok faust has me convinced.

So with faust and e in my towncore, it pretty much has to be math and Swowl unless it’s Jim and he’s been fooling me.

I think I need to reread those three. No idea if I’ll have time though— if I don’t then I’ll just have to sheep Didds at the end.
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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #1892 on: October 08, 2021, 09:07:23 am »

I just read through Swowl and Math's D3.

I felt like swowl immediately believed my claim and jumped onto iguana after me. Which one of the biggest reasons someone might unequivocally believe me is because they knew that iguana was, in fact, scum. They also went through and were one of my most ardent defenders all day, and it is easy to defend a position that you know is true (because you are scum).

It seemed like math was just commenting on stuff that happened for activity and then eventually votes for me. I don't know, didn't really feel genuine town read to me, more of a last ditch hope that people would go ahead and exile me rather than iguana.

I didn't go back to D1/D2 to look at how they interact with each other and if it makes sense that they are partners with iguana, but I think just based on D3 I would lean toward exiling math first then swowl next. Definitely see a narrative for an iguana/math/swowl team.
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mathdude

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #1893 on: October 08, 2021, 10:05:07 am »

Can everyone post their chum to scum list?

This seems like a good idea... yours obviously gets posted last.
I don't think it's helpful at all. People need to do some rereading, figuring out possible partner interactions. Posting a list of their biases isn't going to accomplish anything.

This is why I included reasons in mine.  Yes, the list alone isn't that helpful.  But why people are where on the list is helpful.  It can find inconsistencies.  And it can help each of us know who to trust more, maybe.
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mathdude

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #1894 on: October 08, 2021, 10:08:44 am »

faust - start of D3 was just way too much... seems like some hidden agenda
Can you be more precise? What agenda would I have followed there?

Also, I know this isn't going to go well with some of you, but if there is 3 ICs to choose from, why would scum!me go for the one who defended me the hardest?

More precise?  Sowing doubt.  Trying to direct traffic, after one of: a) your partner makes a claim you want us to focus on, or b) a cop claim comes out that implicates your partner and you react hard and fast.

And why would scum!you kill MiX who defended you the hardest?  Exactly so you could say what you just said.  WIFOM, I know.  But still.  Killing MiX also points a finger hard at me (trying to silence the guy that's been saying since D1, or at least D2, that you should vote me out)... we re-read MiX, follow his leads, exile me today, you're at LYLO tomorrow.
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mathdude

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #1895 on: October 08, 2021, 10:10:51 am »

Swowl - when he's here, he posts thoughtful stuff, but mostly seems to not be around or contribute much (1 week, for 1 game day... okay. But 3 and counting could be hiding)
this is what I mean about scum to chum lists by the way. It's D3 with a scum flip and mathdude doesn't have anything better on Swowl than "he's lurking". That's not going to help us.

Lurking through 3 full game days?  That's not a fallback, or lame read.  That's a scumtell.  Not sure if it's one for Swowl, but I know some of my past few games, I've seen at least 1, and sometimes 2 of the scum post just enough to not get prodded, and just slide through most of the game that way.  I feel Swowl's doing that here.  When he does post after an absence, there were a few too many "catching up" or "just checking in, but still gone for a bit" posts for me to believe they're genuine.
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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #1896 on: October 08, 2021, 10:12:03 am »

It's nice that your partner iguana made sure you had some more time to put this all together. It's still not convincing.

Is that why iguana self-hammered early?  I was trying to figure out why he'd do that.  I figured we were starting to figure some stuff out, and he wanted to shut down discussions.

... heading out for a bit.  Back later to respond to more things.
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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #1897 on: October 08, 2021, 11:22:47 am »

Exile all people who claimed to have considered lying.

This might be the right solution... Swowl first, then e second.  But coming from you, I'm not sure it is the right solution anymore.  Maybe it's just what you want us to do.
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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #1898 on: October 08, 2021, 11:24:43 am »

It's sad when you only have scum to interact with.

Kind of want to say "tell me about it" at this point

This will be quite ironic if we find out you are both scum.  Then you're both telling the truth!
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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #1899 on: October 08, 2021, 11:29:06 am »

also also faust is a good bet either way. because if e IS town it's pretty suspicious how far faust went to sew doubt about his towniness.
I'm very confused. What is this about? And why is it suspicious anyway?
Oh I read it again and I think I get it now. By "his townieness" you're not referring to mine but to e's.

I'm not sure that is a good scum move there. I mean if a Cop claims a guilty result, almost all of the time the guilty result is exiled. I don't think I could have won that particular battle, so it only paints me in a bad light. Better to cut your losses there as scum I'd think.

It's worth pointing out that in the scenario where both e and Swowl are town, scum would have already known that Swowl wasn't a Cop after e's claim. But that revelation was what pushed me over to iguana. If I'm scum there then I built a case on e that I knew from the get-go was going to fall apart.

Even if there were potential flaws (below the surface), a bold move like you did, potentially with scum!you and scum!e (or even less bold, but very possible, scum!you and town!e), the whole idea of "I'm not sure that is a good scum move there" is exactly why I feel you might have done it.  People may have said it's not a good idea for scum!you to point it out, and you could just let the conversation go with it.  But since you're now the one that brought it up, it's very much WIFOM.
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