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Author Topic: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 5)  (Read 117890 times)

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gkrieg13

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #225 on: September 14, 2021, 06:08:34 pm »

You want to exile me without providing reasons?
Why would I want to provide reasons?

Can you at least address the fact that you JUST USED this tactic as scum in the last game to avoid ever having to give a reason for suspecting Swowl?
Eh, nevermind my question above, I got it now. It's my playstyle. In the last game I had a perfectly fine reason to be voting for Swowl set aside. I wouldn't have done that kind of vote as scum if I couldn't justify it later.

Not sure, but I think it's that the reason would have looked "set-aside", which is maybe why you didn't give it (didn't read that game).
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gkrieg13

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #226 on: September 14, 2021, 06:09:57 pm »

I feel better and better about my EFHW vote.  I am not down with voting for Joth, MiX, LL, or faust.

What about those 4 makes them not votable?


I feel like they are probably town. Or I at least need more data to decide.

But in that same post (the part I snipped) you gave another list of people that you didn't know about. So did you just make a quick decision on them being townie for now? If so, what has made them townie so far?
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WestCoastDidds

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #227 on: September 14, 2021, 06:46:20 pm »

I feel better and better about my EFHW vote.  I am not down with voting for Joth, MiX, LL, or faust.

What about those 4 makes them not votable?

I feel like they are probably town. Or I at least need more data to decide.

But in that same post (the part I snipped) you gave another list of people that you didn't know about. So did you just make a quick decision on them being townie for now? If so, what has made them townie so far?

EhÖitís mostly gut reads. I thought Jothís ďHi Everybody!Ē line was nice, not scummy. Most of us just finished the game Joth modded so he was in it, but he didnít get to play. MiX is being town Mix. When heís scum heís more erratic. LL seems like his usual towny self. At the time I found faust towny mostly because he was asking towny questions. In the day since I wrote that, though, heís become more cagey and less forthcoming. Iguana on the other hand has moved up in towniness. So, I think Iíd  replace faust with iguana now.  Jimmm gave me a cookie. I like cookies. Not sure itís town, but Iím here for the cookie, for sure.
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Dylan32

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Signups)
« Reply #228 on: September 14, 2021, 07:02:20 pm »

White paused for a moment to look out the window and noticed that somehow their course had drifted straight into an asteroid field! They jumped on the weapons and started blasting the asteroids out of the sky, while Cyan jumped in the pilot's seat and charted a new course. At the back of the ship, Lime Green wondered where everyone was, so they sat down and watched the security cameras for a bit.

Vote Count 1.3

iguanaiguana (1): 2.71828.....
EFHW (4): WestCoastDidds, iguanaiguana, jotheonah, Jimmmmm
Jimmmmm (3): faust, MiX, mathdude
faust (1): LaLight

Not Voting (3): Swowl, EFHW, gkrieg13

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to exile. Day 1 ends September 18, 2021, 03:00:00 pm
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Forum Mafia Record - Wins: 14 - NM9, M97, RMM41, M99, M102, M104, M119, M126, RMM56, M133, M134, RMM58, RMM59, RMM61, RMM60; Losses 15 - RMM37, M89, M94, M95, M96, M100, RMM47 M109, M110, M120, M127, M129, M131, M132, M136; MVPs: 1 - NM9

iguanaiguana

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #229 on: September 14, 2021, 08:20:51 pm »

You want to exile me without providing reasons?
Why would I want to provide reasons?

Can you at least address the fact that you JUST USED this tactic as scum in the last game to avoid ever having to give a reason for suspecting Swowl?
Eh, nevermind my question above, I got it now. It's my playstyle. In the last game I had a perfectly fine reason to be voting for Swowl set aside. I wouldn't have done that kind of vote as scum if I couldn't justify it later.

So can you explain what the supposed pro town reason of routinely hiding the reasons for your D1 votes is? Can you point to any recent town game where you've done this?

When I used to play with you, I have no memory that you withheld reasoning like this D1.
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Point iguana. Not that points really matter with a result, but still.
Igu is town or trying the hardest he ever has as scum.

iguanaiguana

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #230 on: September 14, 2021, 08:24:16 pm »

Can someone articulate why the Jimmmmm wagon?

Because you're questioning it. That puts the chance out there that the two of you are partners.

For me personally finding partner interactions is too hard without a single flip and it's a sort of folly to try. That sort of things lends itself to confirmation bias easily.
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Point iguana. Not that points really matter with a result, but still.
Igu is town or trying the hardest he ever has as scum.

iguanaiguana

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #231 on: September 14, 2021, 08:27:45 pm »

I think Westworld was the last time I won as scum: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20403.0

Thanks! I now also have confirmation that you read 200 word long posts.

Which post was this?

The post he quoted. It was a sort of a joke because I made a longish post and asked Joth a question in it randomly. My thought was that a careless person wouldn't even see the question directed to them.
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Point iguana. Not that points really matter with a result, but still.
Igu is town or trying the hardest he ever has as scum.

iguanaiguana

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #232 on: September 14, 2021, 08:41:39 pm »

I don't see the case for Jim at all. Looking through his ISO... he's done nothing but scumhunt. Is scumhunting supposed to be scummy now?
Can you point me to posts where Jimmmmm scumhunts?

Sure.

I suspect MiX and faust are voting on me in the hopes that Iíll overreact to a small wagon which is one of my primary scum tells. Itís a good plan, town points all around.

Too careful an (effectively) first post in response to meaningless RVS votes.

Vote: joth

Given that this was post #81, to me it was the most scumhunting post that had been made so far in the game. It struck me as someone who looked at what had been posted with seriousness and wanted to get out of RVS and into looking for possible scumtells already.

I feel like this game has a whole lot of "[player] is [alignment]" with very few reasons provided, and I'm not sure what to do with that.

This shows someone looking for scum and not able to find any.

Didds, have a cookie.

Vote: EFHW

Here, Jim changed his mind and was convinced to vote EFHW based on a case by WCD. I guess what made this look like scumhunting to me is that he didn't vote EFHW (who was already a sort of alternative wagon to him) until WCD gave reasons, and implies that the reasons convinced him. As scum, I think maybe he would have already been voting EFHW before WCD made the case. So, it is sheeping, but it looks like sheeping because he's looking for scum.

Could he be scum just fabricating this? Sure. Anyone could be still. But on D1 I don't see the point to punish a player for scumhunting unless there is a good argument that they really look like scum themselves. So I think Jim is a bad vote.
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Point iguana. Not that points really matter with a result, but still.
Igu is town or trying the hardest he ever has as scum.

EFHW

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #233 on: September 14, 2021, 09:46:33 pm »


Here, Jim changed his mind and was convinced to vote EFHW based on a case by WCD. I guess what made this look like scumhunting to me is that he didn't vote EFHW (who was already a sort of alternative wagon to him) until WCD gave reasons, and implies that the reasons convinced him. As scum, I think maybe he would have already been voting EFHW before WCD made the case. So, it is sheeping, but it looks like sheeping because he's looking for scum.

Could he be scum just fabricating this? Sure. Anyone could be still. But on D1 I don't see the point to punish a player for scumhunting unless there is a good argument that they really look like scum themselves. So I think Jim is a bad vote.
.

On the other hand, Jimmmmm is being more active than usual and you could say that he used the cover provided by Didds' case to join the wagon. I like seeing the participation, so I'm sorry to discourage it, but vote: Jimmmmm.

I also want to clarify that this:
Quote
Because there can't be anything in the current game that is scummy.
was a joke. I accidentally hit post before I could add an emoji :P
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Jimmmmm

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #234 on: September 14, 2021, 09:53:39 pm »

On the other hand, Jimmmmm is being more active than usual and you could say that he used the cover provided by Didds' case to join the wagon. I like seeing the participation, so I'm sorry to discourage it, but vote: Jimmmmm.

Thanks for the reason!

It's tough when you have a reputation for inactivity. I'd like to get away from it, and it's not really worth playing if I'm not going to be actively involved in the game, but any attempt to be more active is inevitably going to be seen as scummy. I'm certainly not going to limit my posting in order to avoid suspicion.

If it helps, I'm stuck at home due to lockdown, so I have more time on my hands than I would otherwise have.
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EFHW

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #235 on: September 14, 2021, 10:10:24 pm »


This was true before, but not now: what do you think about math's answer to your question?

Also I think it's obvious joth voted you because you were a wagon.
math, were you seriously pushing MiX, or was that more RVS?
If LL hadn't joined the vote already, I would have already moved on. But since there were 2 votes, I thought I'd see if anyone else was interested in joining too.

So maybe RVS? But
I donít know if I believe in RVS anymore.
Ditto?

MiX wanted my response to this. I don't play this way, but I know some people do. Meaning being influenced by existing wagons in placing a vote. Maybe that's why joth just voted me. But given that math exhorted others to vote MiX, I'd say this is not a satisfactory answer. I don't see how it can be RVS since he had reasons. Not random.
Itís perception, so I think itís fair for other people not to see it.

I see it as defensive because it begins with a deflection on the topic (MiX wanted an answer), then a shrug (I donít play this way but some people do), then a deflection (maybe thatís what Joth vote was).

This is decent textual analysis, but it is a misinterpretation. I think I introduced it the way I did because MiX's question wasn't in the quote and I wanted it to be clear that I was responding to him. Each of those comments was in response to MiX's previous post, acknowledging what he said about joth's vote and also noticing that math gave a similar reason. I then went on to criticize math's response. I kind of tunneled math last game (oh wait, I was scum), so I held back on voting for the moment.

Then I provided evidence for my observation:
Come on people. MiX is a good wagon.

Here is the exhorting I mentioned in my last post.

I'm still seriously considering voting math, but I'm learning that he can be kind of awkward and that could explain the confusion I have about is he joking or is he serious.

I really wasn't fussed about the two votes on me. It's pretty much par for the course after winning as scum in the game just finished.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #236 on: September 14, 2021, 10:17:08 pm »


I feel like I should clarify some of this.

The joth vote was a tiny scum ping which was big enough to warrant a first vote. You could call it semi-RVS.

#158 was really less about scumhunting and more about trying to engage with the game and not knowing how to. The main thing I want out of a Day 1 is to keep up and be engaged in discussions. "[player] is [alignmenty] for [reasons]" is far more helpful to that end than simply "[player] is [alignment]". It's also worth noting that I was not talking about voting without reason, rather making statements with some degree of apparent certainty.

The vote on EFHW was a "reward" for WCD giving reasons for a read. I did not consider the state of wagons at the time.

PPE
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Jimmmmm

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #237 on: September 15, 2021, 12:51:09 am »

Having done some re-reading I'm less than convinced about the EFHW wagon and will probably move my vote soon.

Didds, do you think you could be tunneling EFHW?
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faust

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #238 on: September 15, 2021, 01:52:30 am »

Maybe it's that I don't know most people's playstyles well enough to "productively scumhunt", but wagon analysis is the best option I have most of the time.

Regarding claims though... with the setup in this game, won't scum just claim VT most of the time? Or maybe counterclaim something near XYLO? So forcing out claims won't work as well as RMM games.

Has anyone ever shown that wagon analysis is helpful? I mean I do it too, but do we know if it is meaningful?
There is a significant lack of research on mafia game theory unfortunately.

Scum could likely get away easier on a wagon with no explanation.
No they couldn't. It would in fact be harder for them to get away with that. If reasons were provided, then scum can just say "I agreed with the reasons given by gkrieg". If no reasons were provided, then they have to come up with convincing reasons themselves.

So can you explain what the supposed pro town reason of routinely hiding the reasons for your D1 votes is?
Yes, sure. The first reason is it makes it harder for scum to hide. As explained in my answer to gkrieg above, having reasons makes it easy for scum to engage with the case - they just choose to agree or disagree with the reasons. If reasons are not given then they have to actively come up with a fake read without the guide of reading other player's reads. That is harder and thus playing that way makes it easier to catch scum.

Secondly, the person who is being wagoned cannot just argue their townieness by arguing against the reasons. It's easy, especially on D1, to pick apart any reasons given for any wagon. It is harder to argue your own townieness. Thus the latter gives better insight into their alignment.

Thirdly, if I do not give reasons, I can vote someone for pressure and have them not know that is why, which makes the pressure more effective. However if I give reasons for any "proper" vote, then it will be obvious when a vote is just for pressure.

Finally, reasons are often not much more than a confirmation-biased reread of someone you already gut-read as scum. If you type them out you only lean more into that confirmation bias. And you've created a position now that you will feel that you need to defend, which psychologically makes it even harder to remain open and fight the bias.

Can you point to any recent town game where you've done this?
You can probably look at any recent game where I've been town. However I replaced out early from Memento and Dwarves was bastard, so the best reasource is probably M134. I have a bunch of unexplained votes there.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #239 on: September 15, 2021, 02:31:08 am »

You're basically saying "Let's not play the game so it makes it harder for scum to play the game". When everyone's a suspect, there's no way to force scum to give their opinions before Town, and trying to do so can only give scum a free pass to not contribute. What you're doing may serve you as an individual across multiple games, but it certainly doesn't serve the Town.
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faust

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #240 on: September 15, 2021, 02:42:51 am »

What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #241 on: September 15, 2021, 02:46:16 am »

What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.

For sure. And look at the rabbit-hole you're leading us down.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #242 on: September 15, 2021, 02:46:51 am »

In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #243 on: September 15, 2021, 02:55:12 am »

Hi Everybody!

What meaningful scumtells do you infer from this post? Quacks like RVS to me.

TBH though, the interactions before and after this rang a little scummy to me. So my vote wasn't entirely without reason. Also, creating interaction, seeing who defends and who jumps on wagon is helpful too.

What interactions rang scummy? You say "before and after" this - are you quoting the post you didn't find scummy?
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WestCoastDidds

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #244 on: September 15, 2021, 03:10:35 am »

Having done some re-reading I'm less than convinced about the EFHW wagon and will probably move my vote soon.

Didds, do you think you could be tunneling EFHW?

Oh, yes. That definitely happensÖ she even alluded to it earlier. And thereís some residual suspicion from the last game about both her and faust.  Iím not feeling rushed to move my vote at the moment since weíre only what? halfway through D1? My weeks are front loaded so Iím underwater at work now (thus why Iím up at 2am) but am out from under starting on Thursday. Plus watching her reactions and the wagon generally is really helpful to me.
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faust

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #245 on: September 15, 2021, 03:21:28 am »

What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.

For sure. And look at the rabbit-hole you're leading us down.
I am leading us down? I was merely answering iguana's question, and iguana seems to think that my answer will help him read me better, so that's helpful for the game. You responded with a paragraph that does nothing to with the current game and doesn't help anyone in any way.
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faust

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #246 on: September 15, 2021, 03:22:13 am »

What definitely does not serve town is debating which playstyles are and aren't helpful to town instead of scumhunting.

For sure. And look at the rabbit-hole you're leading us down.
I am leading us down? I was merely answering iguana's question, and iguana seems to think that my answer will help him read me better, so that's helpful for the game. You responded with a paragraph that does nothing to with for the current game and doesn't help anyone in any way.
EBWOP
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faust

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #247 on: September 15, 2021, 03:24:22 am »

In fact, Vote: faust. Scum or anti-Town, you don't get a free pass just because you want one.
Oh yeah, and now a policy vote! I'm sure that is going to move the game forward.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #248 on: September 15, 2021, 03:26:43 am »

I am leading us down?

Yep. You have the most posts and zero helpful content. The only conclusion one can come to trying to analyse your game is "Why is he refusing to contribute?" So we either have to go ahead and give you that free pass, or argue with you about how anti-Town you're being.
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faust

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Re: M135: Among Us Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #249 on: September 15, 2021, 03:29:25 am »

I am leading us down?

Yep. You have the most posts and zero helpful content. The only conclusion one can come to trying to analyse your game is "Why is he refusing to contribute?" So we either have to go ahead and give you that free pass, or argue with you about how anti-Town you're being.
In the very post that you quoted I have argued why what I posted was helpful content. If you disagree (which you do by saying that none of my content was helpful) then you need to argue against that.
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