Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[faust]

People need to do some rereading, figuring out possible partner interactions. Posting a list of their biases isn't going to accomplish anything.

This seems wrong. Of course rereads can change reads, but wouldn't Town faust want scum to have to give some reads at this point? Why is faust only concerned with the reads of Townies?

Yeah, this runs me the wrong way. I would rather talk about perceptions and think they could generate an interesting data point. But since reads are non-binding, I think faust finds them irrelevant. Still, it is helpful to me to see where my town friends are standing.

One good reason to flip Swowl today is that it reveals something about faust. I told mix that I thought that is Swowl was red, faust was an MIC.

Scum's reads are fairly simple at this point; there are only so many non-IC town left and they have to exile them.

I'm not generally against these lists but I think that asking for them right away discouraged people from rereading and then forming their reads.

[Swowl]

What are all the possibilities that could happen if EE shows up?

A) 2 of 1-shot cop
B) 1-shot cop
C) 1-shot doc
D) 2 of 1-shot doc

Is it [A] or [D] or [B and C]? (This is my interpretation)
Is it [A] or [D] only? (I could see this being the intention)
Is it [A] or [C] only? (This seems to be what Swowl is saying)


I feel like Swowl is trying to obscure something here.

I am not trying to obscure anything - and I was correct.

[jotheonah]

I’m kinda VLA today and tomorrow.

With plenty of time til deadline, I don’t feel the need to leave a vote anywhere.

[mathdude]

What are all the possibilities that could happen if EE shows up?

A) 2 of 1-shot cop
B) 1-shot cop
C) 1-shot doc
D) 2 of 1-shot doc

Is it [A] or [D] or [B and C]? (This is my interpretation)
Is it [A] or [D] only? (I could see this being the intention)
Is it [A] or [C] only? (This seems to be what Swowl is saying)


I feel like Swowl is trying to obscure something here.

I am not trying to obscure anything - and I was correct.

Balance-wise, it just doesn't make sense that it's either 2 cops or 1 doc, for an EE roll (all 1-shot). The cop is more powerful, as indicated by the single C being 1-shot cop and single D being full doctor. So ash's original intention of setup design is likely as I read it. But I guess you aren't the only one to misinterpret, as our mod assumed the same as you.

[Swowl]

What are all the possibilities that could happen if EE shows up?

A) 2 of 1-shot cop
B) 1-shot cop
C) 1-shot doc
D) 2 of 1-shot doc

Is it [A] or [D] or [B and C]? (This is my interpretation)
Is it [A] or [D] only? (I could see this being the intention)
Is it [A] or [C] only? (This seems to be what Swowl is saying)


I feel like Swowl is trying to obscure something here.

I am not trying to obscure anything - and I was correct.

Balance-wise, it just doesn't make sense that it's either 2 cops or 1 doc, for an EE roll (all 1-shot). The cop is more powerful, as indicated by the single C being 1-shot cop and single D being full doctor. So ash's original intention of setup design is likely as I read it. But I guess you aren't the only one to misinterpret, as our mod assumed the same as you.

? We have played this set up a lot and no one has ever brought this up. Since my time here at least.

[Jimmmmm]

Okay so if mathdude is scum then there was some pretty serious 2-way bussing going on. iguana's perspective first:

Third vote is scum

Vote: math

I'm a bit busy at work for the next two days, so no time for a long post but suffice to say I found this case persuasive.

Vote: Mathdude

Very easily jumped on mathdude early Day. I would be inclined to not take this vote seriously, except that it stayed for the entire rest of the Day.

As for Math himself, that is a tough one to read.
...
But... as a whole... I think the argument still stands that Math is scummy because there is a lack of any kind of town-slip type post like he had in Oz.

In-depth post concluding from meta arguments that math is scummy.

-snip-
Long post about me
...

Even after all this, I still can't figure out if you find me scummy or not. I think you went back and forth 3 or 4 times, got stuck on last game a bit too long, and then couldn't decide. But after reading your posts on other people too, you seem to be in the same boat with your reads on a lot of people. Seems hedgy overall to me.

PPE Swowl's post

Let me clarify. You are scummy for voting Jim when you did the first time, and you are scummy for sheeping faust and revoting Jim after unvoting. You are especially scummy if Jim is town, which is something I obviously can't completely figure out yet (It's D1, how am I supposed to be sure about anyone?), but think is true.

I am voting you. So you can be sure I think you are scummy.

More arguments for mathdude being scummy.

Up to this point, your read on almost everyone seemed to hone on how they looked at me. You are really tunneling down on me, aren't you? Are you scum trying to buddy (or I guess anti-buddy) me, in case you get caught so it looks like I'm a partner?
...

...

I realize I am focusing on you. But that is because I am voting you. And the extent to which I am doing so is not as much as you are making it out to be.

Interesting interaction.

Vote Count 1.II.5

EFHW (4): WestCoastDidds, MiX, Jotheonah, Swowl
Jimmmmm (3 2): jotheonah, mathdude, EFHW
faust (1): Jimmmmm
mathdude (3): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, gkrieg13
MiX (2): LaLight, faust

Last thing I wanted to do is take a look at the current game state. With less than a day to deadline... Jim is the only one stubbornly not moving his vote to any kind of a wagon. Still, I don't like the look of the people voting Jim and do not want to vote there. I don't think I like voting MiX either given that the two votes on him are coming from people I don't really trust.

I could move to EFHW but I think I still want to see if anyone else is interested in Math.

This is a "money where your mouth is" moment. iguana is clearly eyeing the end of the Day. Moving to EFHW here would have been the easiest thing in the world - putting her on X-2 for the sake of getting an exile through, and it likely would have taken any puff out of the math wagon, which is explicitly the opposite of what he was trying to do.

I'm here. I would exile elsewhere to avoid nexile, but right now where I'm at looks best.

This is a bit under 2 hours before deadline.

Jimmmmm (3): mathdude, EFHW, jotheonah
mathdude (4): 2.71828....., iguanaiguana, gkrieg13, Jimmmmm
MiX (1): LaLight
joth (4): faust, MiX, WestCoastDidds, Swowl

About half an hour before deadline. Very easy to move to joth to help get an exile through (in fact EFHW does so on the next post).

Well, exactly one of us is wrong about Math. More later.

I also have reasons to believe that you (Math) are town.

@EFHW, I was seeing a lot of posts like that last game too, when Math was town.

One thing I've noticed about Math is that he sort of describes things in black and white. In a way, it makes sense for a game like mafia because either you're scum or you're town. But he doesn't often seem to leave room for the uncertainty of things like "you might be town" or "you might be right, but you might be wrong." But the way he said I'm either super helpful or lying scum, it's like he had this gut reaction and he didn't even consider the in between.

And I think I was seeing that from Math and having a hard time not scum reading it in Oz as well.

I'll be honest. I'm still having trouble not reading every third thing Math says as scum. But I think there are enough reasons to consider him town right now that he shouldn't be the exile today. IMO we need to look elsewhere.

Big math post, too big to comment in mobile, have a gut feeling that he wants to 1v1 iguana, could be townie but I don't think so.

Vote: math

You got away from the math tunnel but boy did it not last long.

What I see is a player who is super-laser-focused on how other people read him. To the extent that a lot of his votes are OMGUS spurred. And I know enough of his meta to know that he was doing this in Oz as well, at the very least, and as town. I don't agree with the methodology but I don't see it as scum either.

It's very interesting however to note that iguana suddenly had a solid Townread on math on Day 2. Another point is that I think iguana tried super hard to be Towny, epitomised by his emotive post/s about faust. It's possible that he was committed to his scumread on mathdude, figuring that he was a likely early exile so iguana may as well get as many Townpoints as possible, and then maybe was talked out of it Night 1. But I'm having a hard time seeing scum push so hard for a Day 1 partner exile in lieu of seemingly easier Town exiles.

[2.71828.....]

-snip-

But I'm having a hard time seeing scum push so hard for a Day 1 partner exile in lieu of seemingly easier Town exiles.

So, math is town. Who is scum in their place? You? Joth? faust?

You don't have a lot of options. Defending math as town in a vacuum doesn't help a lot at this point.

[mathdude]

-snip-

But I'm having a hard time seeing scum push so hard for a Day 1 partner exile in lieu of seemingly easier Town exiles.

So, math is town. Who is scum in their place? You? Joth? faust?

You don't have a lot of options. Defending math as town in a vacuum doesn't help a lot at this point.

Doesn't help a lot? Jim actually went to reread. You've painted scum as me and Swowl, end of story. I know you're wrong because I'm not scum.

I think scum is within you, faust, and Swowl. If we exile Swowl today, at least Jim has started a discussion for not tunneling me tomorrow and pushing this game to a final lylo of 2vs1.

More town-cred to Jim... although I already thought you were townie. If he were scum, he could have definitely left the discussion as Swowl/math.

[Jimmmmm]

-snip-

But I'm having a hard time seeing scum push so hard for a Day 1 partner exile in lieu of seemingly easier Town exiles.

So, math is town. Who is scum in their place? You? Joth? faust?

You don't have a lot of options. Defending math as town in a vacuum doesn't help a lot at this point.

I don't understand the purpose of this post. Obviously we're looking for scum not Town; the Day's not over yet. You, joth and (I think) faust are saying that it's Swowl/math. I'm certainly not going to just assume that's true. And if math seems unlikely to be scum, that certainly warrants consideration. If you have a narrative explaining iguana and math as partners I'd love to hear it.

You did mention iguana's vote on math, but you mischaracterised the rest of iguana's Day 1 as "mistakenly" staying on the wagon for too long, which is patently untrue.

[Jimmmmm]

I think scum is within you, faust, and Swowl. If we exile Swowl today, at least Jim has started a discussion for not tunneling me tomorrow and pushing this game to a final lylo of 2vs1.

But if you're Town it should also affect reads on Swowl, as then he's either being bussed or Town. Well okay given that you've put him in your top 2 scum, he's being bussed or Town anyway.

[Jimmmmm]

I mean if anything iguana's Day 1 points to joth being scum. If you're saying it's Swowl/math, then you're saying out of the 4 relatively viable late Day 1 wagons (me, EFHW, joth, math), iguana avoided the three Town ones and stuck fast to the scum one. Not impossible, but a pretty big claim, and not one which should just be dismissed as a mistake.

[faust]

I think scum is within you, faust, and Swowl. If we exile Swowl today, at least Jim has started a discussion for not tunneling me tomorrow and pushing this game to a final lylo of 2vs1.

More town-cred to Jim... although I already thought you were townie. If he were scum, he could have definitely left the discussion as Swowl/math.

How is it Jimmmmm gets towncred when he points out flaws in the Swowl/math theory, but i don't?

[mathdude]

I think scum is within you, faust, and Swowl. If we exile Swowl today, at least Jim has started a discussion for not tunneling me tomorrow and pushing this game to a final lylo of 2vs1.

More town-cred to Jim... although I already thought you were townie. If he were scum, he could have definitely left the discussion as Swowl/math.

How is it Jimmmmm gets towncred when he points out flaws in the Swowl/math theory, but i don't?

Because I think you're scum!

No, maybe I missed it? What's your main concern? Was it the bussing?

[mathdude]

I think scum is within you, faust, and Swowl. If we exile Swowl today, at least Jim has started a discussion for not tunneling me tomorrow and pushing this game to a final lylo of 2vs1.

But if you're Town it should also affect reads on Swowl, as then he's either being bussed or Town. Well okay given that you've put him in your top 2 scum, he's being bussed or Town anyway.

I think my chum to scum list earlier today (game day) had Swowl second. But shortly after, as I worked through e, I realized I had him in the wrong spot. I'd put e as my first pick now, faust second, Swowl third. So it's possible Swowl is Town with scum trying to push him if I'm right with my top two picks.

If it's Swowl/faust or Swowl/e, you're right the bussing makes less sense, since they could probably just push to exile me.

[faust]

I think scum is within you, faust, and Swowl. If we exile Swowl today, at least Jim has started a discussion for not tunneling me tomorrow and pushing this game to a final lylo of 2vs1.

More town-cred to Jim... although I already thought you were townie. If he were scum, he could have definitely left the discussion as Swowl/math.

How is it Jimmmmm gets towncred when he points out flaws in the Swowl/math theory, but i don't?

Because I think you're scum!

No, maybe I missed it? What's your main concern? Was it the bussing?

Yes, it's here:

The flip that should have happened D1

You realize that iguana was on that wagon?

and then here:

Third vote is scum

Vote: math

I'm a bit busy at work for the next two days, so no time for a long post but suffice to say I found this case persuasive.

Vote: Mathdude

But really... This is a perfect bus vote. Just made the "mistake" of staying on wagon too long. Except not, because math want exiled

He doubles down on that later though. It's not quite clear cut.

[mathdude]

Ok faust. You can have a town point too. You did raise it earlier.

At this point, so many people have voted for me, mainly D1 and D2, I've lost track of who has and when and how long they stayed on. I know that's mostly just relevant for me (from my town perspective). But it is definitely relevant who iguana voted for and when.

I think I may need to go back and look at vote patterns again soon... carry on from where I left off nnear EoD2, go right through D3.

I'm at a family Thanksgiving dinner, but hopefully I will get to it tomorrow.

[WestCoastDidds]

It’s thanksgiving?!? That’s amazing!!

I have had too much to drink and cannot be trusted, according to J.

[WestCoastDidds]

What’s on the menu for Canadian thanksgiving??

[mathdude]

It’s thanksgiving?!? That’s amazing!!

I have had too much to drink and cannot be trusted, according to J.

Canadian Thanksgiving, yes.

What’s on the menu for Canadian thanksgiving??

Way too much, as always. My family yesterday, my wife's family today. It's almost 5pm and I'm still stuffed from lunch.

[Swowl]

OK well the weekend is over.

I have defended, or explained, everything I can. Running through it again, I do not think I can do any better, and everyone seems pretty set on my flip so I am going to stop defending myself. Well... that's a lie, but instead of defending I am going to try to help for after my inevitable flip.

As weird as it seems, I think what is happening is skum is trying to set up a situation where they can go 1-2, as in after my flip, they can justify an easy faust exile. And yes, that annoyingly means I do not think faust is skum. Incorrect - yes. Skum - no.
I believe that enough to say that I think that after I flip VT, you all should not exile faust. At least 100% at least he should not be the next exile. I think that is what skum is going for.

So, I believe there are 2 skum in [Jimmm, Math, Joth, E!] and they are sitting pretty letting faust do the work for them.

I get no one believes me now, but when I flip my insights will (or might be at least) be valuable. We have 4 days until deadline, I ask for half that time (2 days) to deep dive and get thoughts out based on this. My contributions this game have been lackluster at best, so if I have to be the pick of the day, I would at least like the chance to attempt to help in some way this game.

[Swowl]

It’s thanksgiving?!? That’s amazing!!

I have had too much to drink and cannot be trusted, according to J.

Canadian Thanksgiving, yes.

You just solved a puzzle for me. My girlfriend's family is from Edmonton and were insistent I come for dinner this evening and when I told them "work has been long and I am beat" they responded with "but you have to! the holiday!"

I have been so confused all day as to what the hell they were going on about. I thought they were talking about Columbus Day (which in the states is not a holiday we normally like "celebrate" or anything)

[Jimmmmm]

I'd put e as my first pick now, faust second, Swowl third. So it's possible Swowl is Town with scum trying to push him if I'm right with my top two picks.

You have e as your top scumread? Talk me through the iguana Cop result.

[Jimmmmm]

iguana from math's perspective.

DAY 1

I did not realize all the Joth voters had already unvoted.

I also don't like voting MiX because of all the tryhard.

Vote: EFHW because of saltiness is something I can get behind.

You don't like tryhard, but saltiness is okay?
Vote: iguana
Let's try a better wagon here?

Yes, I'm eager to get wagons. It's better to actually get people closer to X-1 or X-2 and see throughout the 5 or 7 days how people react, rather than having everyone at 1 or 2 votes until the final 6 hours when only the few online get a say in who gets exiled. If we get real wagons on many people throughout D1, then there's a lot more to look back at in later days. That's how we could find scum.

So I guess I agree with faust... hmmm, that makes me nervous. Oh well, it's D1. I can change my mind about him later if needed

-snip-
Long post about me
...

Even after all this, I still can't figure out if you find me scummy or not. I think you went back and forth 3 or 4 times, got stuck on last game a bit too long, and then couldn't decide. But after reading your posts on other people too, you seem to be in the same boat with your reads on a lot of people. Seems hedgy overall to me.

So math's vote on iguana could easily be seen as a bus; it didn't last very long and there wasn't all that much reason for it. He did later indicate iguana was hedgy, but not all that much to that either.


DAY 2

Vote: faust

When you look for scum and can't find them, it's because Faust is scum.

Or gkrieg.

You're really grasping at straws, aren't you? Just trying to see who will bite and where. You're either super helpful and going to stumble on something good, or you're scum trying to mislead us. I don't like you sheeping my vote.

unvote

Holding on to his scumread.

Last night, I wrote the quoted post, in my heading really not sure where iguana was at - I had been feeling he's a bit scummy for a while, but that post of his I quoted really set off scum-bells for me.  I started a re-read of him (on phone, in bed), then fell asleep.  I was planning to follow up that post (where I "unvoted") with a post about iguana and likely a vote for him.

If someone wants to save me a little time and summarize iguana's posts through D1 and D2, that might save me a bit of time.  But I will go through them for sure, as I feel he's one person I've basically ignored this game so far - probably the most active person I've ignored (I also have almost no thoughts on e or gk, since almost nothing they have said has stood out to me, other than their basically naked votes of me D1).

Hmm. I do find it strange that math says he was basically ignoring iguana, despite the fact the he has clearly scumread him for some time, and reacted sharply to iguana sheeping him.

I had sort of ignored iguana D1, since I had only played 1 other game with him (Oz), and wanted to focus more on people I had played multiple games with, in order to get a little more info about how to read him.  I was scum-reading him off-and-on last game, and I think that's just that his playstyle will get read that way to me (the same way I will, by default, think MiX, faust, and a few others not in this game are just scummy by the way they post D1 of games).  Again, I'm becoming more aware of this bias, and trying to take it into account in learning how to read people.

I could see this as a pre-emptive excuse to abandon his scumread.

Fair enough to say he wasn't sheeping me.  Maybe I got over-reactive at that point.  Like I said earlier, I was planning to follow up that post with a re-read on you and likely a vote on you (which is what this is now!)  And part of the reason I'm thinking that is you are all-of-a-sudden now changing your mind on me.  "I also have reasons to believe that you (Math) are town".  Done with the argument, and just trying to deflect the attention, so I stop focusing on you?  If you town-read me now, maybe I'll ignore you?

Vote: iguana

When I had posted 2 days ago about iguana sheeping me, I was definitely under the mindset that he had been building up in scumminess throughout the game, and I'd have a big case.  But now that I've gone through all his posts, even with a lean on thinking he's scum, they aren't quite as bad as my initial gut read seemed to think they are (and I fully expect pushback on a few fo my comments).  However, I still don't like a bunch of what he said, and will leave my vote there for now.  I'll see how he responds.

So this is a very long post, ending with a vote, but a non-committal one.

I disagree that he's the towniest.  But like I said near the end of it... I went into it with a big gut scumread on iguana, then as I was getting through the posts, they weren't seeming near as scummy as I remembered.  But I'm leaving my vote there now until he responds.  I assume it will either assure me that he is scum, or it will give me a reason to move my vote.

Soon after this he indicates support for the gkrieg wagon and then joins it. As far as I can tell, he never acknowledges iguana's response to his case, or really ever mentions him again, other than to disbelieve e's claim and say that scum iguana would not advocate for continuing the massclaim.

So okay from this perspective I could totally see them being partners. math, what was it about iguana's response that caused you to abandon your scumread on him? Why didn't you acknowledge the fact that you'd changed your read, despite the large amount of work you put into forming the read?

[mathdude]

I'd put e as my first pick now, faust second, Swowl third. So it's possible Swowl is Town with scum trying to push him if I'm right with my top two picks.

You have e as your top scumread? Talk me through the iguana Cop result.

I have gone through it in a good amount of detail. Read back through my posts. I don't see 1-shot cop claiming the way he did. I'd more believe he's a full cop that lied to us about his role or he's scum. After you read back, let me know if you still have questions.

I see you also made a longer post about me, but don't have time to go through it at the moment. Holiday Monday turned into massive family house cleaning day, so I won't be on computer till tonight... to look at that and go back through votes.

[Dylan32]

Yellow finished realigning the engines, and looked at their list and realized they were done with their tasks. They walked around for a bit, but started to get worried because they couldn't find anyone else. "Where could they all be??"

Vote Count 4.2

Swowl (2): faust, 2.71828.....
Not Voting (5): Swowl, mathdude, Jimmmmm, jotheonah, WestCoastDidds

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to exile. Day 4 will end Thursday, October 14, 2021, at 5:00 pm forum time.

Also, everyone other than mathdude, Swowl, and Jimmmmm are eligible to be prodded right now. No official prods going out because holiday for some folks, but post when you can.