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Author Topic: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing  (Read 4550 times)

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grep

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2021, 02:36:17 pm »
+1


Corbita
$3 - Action - Duration
+$2
At start of your next turn, reveal and discard any number of Action and Treasure cards for +$1 each.


Without a draw to X support, it's a terminal silver with a small next turn bonus, cheap as it does not stack well. Combo with draw to X as it does not consume an action at start of turn.
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JW

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2021, 03:12:14 pm »
0

Book Seller
$4
Action - Reaction
+1 action
draw until you have 5 cards in hand
-
If you discard this card, draw up to 5 cards in hand afterwards

The issue I see with this card is that it doesnít do anything without a discard outlet or a non-terminal action that does not draw a card (or a discard attack to counter). For that reason, it doesnít seem worth $4, and a lower cost would not solve that it would not have any use in many kingdoms.
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faust

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2021, 04:07:39 pm »
+8

What if draw-to-X but X is actually a variable?


Quote
Geographer - $4
Action

+2 Actions
Reveal and discard a card from your hand. Draw until you have cards in hand equal to its cost in $.

Version history:
v0.1: Used to be "+1 Action" instead of "+2 Actions".
« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 03:53:19 am by faust »
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2021, 04:16:54 pm »
+4

What if draw-to-X but X is actually a variable?


Quote
Geographer - $4
Action

+1 Action
Reveal and discard a card from your hand. Draw until you have cards in hand equal to its cost in $.

This is extremely weak. From a default handsize, you need to discard a just to get the same net handsize as a Cantrip. Even discarding a just gets you the same net handsize as a Lab, and that's a weak enough effect that you'd probably be better off just playing the !

Also, revealing is unnecessary because you're only discarding one card; that card is visible normally.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2021, 04:22:51 pm by Gubump »
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emtzalex

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2021, 04:36:29 pm »
0

What if draw-to-X but X is actually a variable?


Quote
Geographer - $4
Action

+1 Action
Reveal and discard a card from your hand. Draw until you have cards in hand equal to its cost in $.

This is extremely weak. From a default handsize, you need to discard a just to get the same net handsize as a Cantrip. Even discarding a just gets you the same net handsize as a Lab, and that's a weak enough effect that you'd probably be better off just playing the !

Unless you collide it with a Province (or Colony). While that makes the card an unlikely buy in the early- or mid-game (absent other consideration), it potentially occupies an interesting pricing space, when you miss the $5 you need to buy a Duchy. While buying Action cards that late in the game inherently risks never getting to use them, the chance that you might (and if you do, are much more likely to get it with a high priced card making it very powerful) might by more appealing than the 1VP you get from an Estate.
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mxdata

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2021, 05:26:18 pm »
+3


Quote
Scribe
Action - Duration - Reaction
$5
+1 Action
Either now or at the start of your next turn, draw until you have 6 cards in hand.
-
When you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may play it.

Most of the time, this would function as a non-terminal draw-to-6, like a Cursed Village without the extra action. Unlike Cursed Village, however, you don't have to get hexed when you gain it. With cards that discard, however, this significantly stronger. The duration aspect makes it a strong counter to discard attacks - by being duration draw you're safe against repeated discard attacks. Get hit by a Militia, play it for next turn, then a second Militia and nothing happens, while if you did the immediate draw, then a second Militia attack would force you to discard back down to three. That would be the main use of the duration option, since otherwise it would normally just amount to a duration +1 Card. The duration option could also function, however, as a proactive defense against discard attacks. It also has a really strong combo with Minion, Hunting Lodge, and Scholar, since you get the draw-to-6 as a reaction to discarding, which happens before the +4, +5, and +7 cards that those three give you - giving you a net handsize of 10, 11, and 13 respectively! Plus an extra Action. As a reaction to an opponent's Minion attack, there'd be an interesting gamble there - you could choose the same-turn option, in which case you'd draw to 6, then get the +4 Cards, for a final hand size of 10. However, if your opponent played another Minion or other discard attack, you'd end up losing those extra cards, while if you chose the next-turn option, you'd be guaranteed 6 cards at the start of your next turn - fewer cards, but safe from other discard attacks. Artificer would also be a strong combo with it, since you can discard a large number of cards and still have a 6-card hand afterwards
« Last Edit: July 19, 2021, 07:55:29 pm by mxdata »
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2021, 06:38:37 pm »
+1


Quote
Scribe
Action - Duration - Reaction
$5
+1 Action
Now or at the start of your next turn, draw until you have 6 cards.
-
When you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may play it.

Most of the time, this would function as a non-terminal draw-to-6, like a Cursed Village without the extra action. Unlike Cursed Village, however, you don't have to get hexed when you gain it. With cards that discard, however, this significantly stronger. The duration aspect makes it a strong counter to discard attacks - by being duration draw you're safe against repeated discard attacks. Get hit by a Militia, play it for next turn, then a second Militia and nothing happens, while if you did the immediate draw, then a second Militia attack would force you to discard back down to three. That would be the main use of the duration option, since otherwise it would normally just amount to a duration +1 Card. The duration option could also function, however, as a proactive defense against discard attacks. It also has a really strong combo with Minion, Hunting Lodge, and Scholar, since you get the draw-to-6 as a reaction to discarding, which happens before the +4, +5, and +7 cards that those three give you - giving you a net handsize of 10, 11, and 13 respectively! Plus an extra Action. As a reaction to an opponent's Minion attack, there'd be an interesting gamble there - you could choose the same-turn option, in which case you'd draw to 6, then get the +4 Cards, for a final hand size of 10. However, if your opponent played another Minion or other discard attack, you'd end up losing those extra cards, while if you chose the next-turn option, you'd be guaranteed 6 cards at the start of your next turn - fewer cards, but safe from other discard attacks. Artificer would also be a strong combo with it, since you can discard a large number of cards and still have a 6-card hand afterwards

I know this is extremely nitpicky, but it should say "draw until you have 6 cards in hand." Otherwise it's checking if you have 6 cards period, and drawing doesn't change the number of cards you have. Also, just to help prevent misreads, it should say "either now or..." like official cards do.
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mxdata

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2021, 07:56:11 pm »
0


Quote
Scribe
Action - Duration - Reaction
$5
+1 Action
Now or at the start of your next turn, draw until you have 6 cards.
-
When you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may play it.

Most of the time, this would function as a non-terminal draw-to-6, like a Cursed Village without the extra action. Unlike Cursed Village, however, you don't have to get hexed when you gain it. With cards that discard, however, this significantly stronger. The duration aspect makes it a strong counter to discard attacks - by being duration draw you're safe against repeated discard attacks. Get hit by a Militia, play it for next turn, then a second Militia and nothing happens, while if you did the immediate draw, then a second Militia attack would force you to discard back down to three. That would be the main use of the duration option, since otherwise it would normally just amount to a duration +1 Card. The duration option could also function, however, as a proactive defense against discard attacks. It also has a really strong combo with Minion, Hunting Lodge, and Scholar, since you get the draw-to-6 as a reaction to discarding, which happens before the +4, +5, and +7 cards that those three give you - giving you a net handsize of 10, 11, and 13 respectively! Plus an extra Action. As a reaction to an opponent's Minion attack, there'd be an interesting gamble there - you could choose the same-turn option, in which case you'd draw to 6, then get the +4 Cards, for a final hand size of 10. However, if your opponent played another Minion or other discard attack, you'd end up losing those extra cards, while if you chose the next-turn option, you'd be guaranteed 6 cards at the start of your next turn - fewer cards, but safe from other discard attacks. Artificer would also be a strong combo with it, since you can discard a large number of cards and still have a 6-card hand afterwards

I know this is extremely nitpicky, but it should say "draw until you have 6 cards in hand." Otherwise it's checking if you have 6 cards period, and drawing doesn't change the number of cards you have. Also, just to help prevent misreads, it should say "either now or..." like official cards do.

Oh, right, good catch.  Updated with the proper wording
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majiponi

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2021, 11:02:08 pm »
0

Industrious Guide
cost $3 - Action
Reveal your hand.
Discard non-Action cards.
Draw until you have 6 cards in hand.
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anordinaryman

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2021, 11:44:05 pm »
+1



Here is my submission this week. Tome is a simple twist on more traditional draw-to-X Actions, this time as a Treasure. Treasures are normally the bane of DtX engines since you usually can't get them out of your hand before playing your next draw card, but Tome doesn't mind them: just play your hand of Treasures before playing Tome to maximize your draw, and then you can play any additional Treasures you draw (including chaining together other Tomes). Obviously, the non-terminal draw and economy come at the cost of dead-drawing Actions during your Buy phase. You also need to watch out for having too many cards in your hand when playing this, otherwise it's just a $5 Copper. These downsides aside though, with a bit of ingenuity and the right support (especially +Buy and other powerful Kingdom Treasures) Tome can allow for some really unique types of DtX engines that simply aren't possible with Library and company.

I feel like this is a lot stronger than Venture. Consider slapping a +buy on it and costing it 6.
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faust

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2021, 03:52:15 am »
0

What if draw-to-X but X is actually a variable?


Quote
Geographer - $4
Action

+1 Action
Reveal and discard a card from your hand. Draw until you have cards in hand equal to its cost in $.

This is extremely weak. From a default handsize, you need to discard a just to get the same net handsize as a Cantrip. Even discarding a just gets you the same net handsize as a Lab, and that's a weak enough effect that you'd probably be better off just playing the !

Also, revealing is unnecessary because you're only discarding one card; that card is visible normally.
You're right; this is generally a bit weak, especially earlier on. I think it can do with a buff, so I have now turned it into a Village.
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Aquila

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2021, 04:13:38 am »
+2

I also came to variable X:

Quote
Bookkeeper - Action, $5 cost.
Choose one: +2 Coffers; or draw until the number of cards in your hand equals your Coffers.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2021, 04:30:58 am »
0

Tidy Town
Action/Attack - $4
+2 Actions
Each player (including you) discards any number of cards from their hand, then reveals a hand with only Actions and Treasures.
Afterwards, draw until you have 4 cards in hand


Rules clarification: You can discard any cards you want from your hand, but you must discard the cards that aren't Actions or Treasures. Everyone discards, but only the person who played the card draws after.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 04:41:40 am by NoMoreFun »
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lompeluiten

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2021, 07:47:49 am »
0




A simple, but sneaky, Way (and death to hand-size attacks) Ė useful in some spots, but mostly not once you get an engine going.
He, that is my idea but in a way instead of an action XD

But this way is not useless once you get an engine going: It can be your engine. You can make an engine out of Chaining festivals. Village, terminal action and any following action is an Laboratory. Chaining Cellars/Warehouses become even more useful to sculpt your perfect hand. You greatly underestimates the power level of this way.
And you overestimate itís strength. It certainly isnít a $4 as your card.

It is definlty less powerfull as an card as you need to invest in different cards instead of the same. I was doubting $4 indeed. It feels more like a $3 to you?
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lompeluiten

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2021, 07:56:18 am »
0

Book Seller
$4
Action - Reaction
+1 action
draw until you have 5 cards in hand
-
If you discard this card, draw up to 5 cards in hand afterwards

The issue I see with this card is that it doesnít do anything without a discard outlet or a non-terminal action that does not draw a card (or a discard attack to counter). For that reason, it doesnít seem worth $4, and a lower cost would not solve that it would not have any use in many kingdoms.
You don't need an non-terminal action card that does not draw, as it does make it easier. Just an village is enough to turn in into a laboratory. There are more situation that it can be usefull.

But there is are indeed kingdoms where it only replaces itself... How can you fix that?
Just an +1$?
Also discard an card before drawing? Or is that an $5 cost card?
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2021, 11:20:32 am »
0

Book Seller
$4
Action - Reaction
+1 action
draw until you have 5 cards in hand
-
If you discard this card, draw up to 5 cards in hand afterwards

The issue I see with this card is that it doesnít do anything without a discard outlet or a non-terminal action that does not draw a card (or a discard attack to counter). For that reason, it doesnít seem worth $4, and a lower cost would not solve that it would not have any use in many kingdoms.
You don't need an non-terminal action card that does not draw, as it does make it easier. Just an village is enough to turn in into a laboratory.

Village draws. Village doesn't help this at all.
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2021, 03:28:01 pm »
+2

I guess the idea is village, terminal non-drawing Action, Bookseller. Then Bookseller is a Lab. Which illustrates its weakness.
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spheremonk

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2021, 10:57:34 pm »
0




A simple, but sneaky, Way (and death to hand-size attacks) Ė useful in some spots, but mostly not once you get an engine going.
He, that is my idea but in a way instead of an action XD

But this way is not useless once you get an engine going: It can be your engine. You can make an engine out of Chaining festivals. Village, terminal action and any following action is an Laboratory. Chaining Cellars/Warehouses become even more useful to sculpt your perfect hand. You greatly underestimates the power level of this way.

My apologies: I didn't notice your card and didn't initially understand your comment. I would be happy to take mine down if you want -- it really is too similar (but different), especially posted right after yours. Let me know. Again, sorry.
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lompeluiten

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2021, 03:37:25 am »
0




A simple, but sneaky, Way (and death to hand-size attacks) Ė useful in some spots, but mostly not once you get an engine going.
He, that is my idea but in a way instead of an action XD

But this way is not useless once you get an engine going: It can be your engine. You can make an engine out of Chaining festivals. Village, terminal action and any following action is an Laboratory. Chaining Cellars/Warehouses become even more useful to sculpt your perfect hand. You greatly underestimates the power level of this way.

My apologies: I didn't notice your card and didn't initially understand your comment. I would be happy to take mine down if you want -- it really is too similar (but different), especially posted right after yours. Let me know. Again, sorry.

O no, don't take it down. It will play out way (pun not intended) different then may card. And i have to change it some anyways after the critique.
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lompeluiten

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2021, 06:07:42 am »
0

My new version of my submission:

Book Seller $4
Action
+ 1 action
You may discard a card.
Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.

Now it sifts trough your deck without support.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 06:11:36 am by lompeluiten »
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lompeluiten

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #45 on: July 22, 2021, 06:11:05 am »
0

I guess the idea is village, terminal non-drawing Action, Bookseller. Then Bookseller is a Lab. Which illustrates its weakness.
Jeah that is the problem for every card that has "Draw to X" To really abuse it, you prefer cards like festivals, but village + terminal action is more likely to have in your Kingdom. Sub optimal, but you might get it to work.
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #46 on: July 22, 2021, 07:47:45 am »
0

I like the new version, its "basic" version is a reverse (discard first) Fugitive. That sounds strong but I guess it is OK. Sure, it is spamable but only if you dont run a conventional draw engine.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2021, 03:05:45 pm »
+1




A simple, but sneaky, Way (and death to hand-size attacks) Ė useful in some spots, but mostly not once you get an engine going.
He, that is my idea but in a way instead of an action XD

But this way is not useless once you get an engine going: It can be your engine. You can make an engine out of Chaining festivals. Village, terminal action and any following action is an Laboratory. Chaining Cellars/Warehouses become even more useful to sculpt your perfect hand. You greatly underestimates the power level of this way.
And you overestimate itís strength. It certainly isnít a $4 as your card.

Minion's "refill to 4" option turns a silver into a $5 action.
And draw to five is even better. That's too good to be a way card.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2021, 04:07:06 pm »
+1




A simple, but sneaky, Way (and death to hand-size attacks) Ė useful in some spots, but mostly not once you get an engine going.
He, that is my idea but in a way instead of an action XD

But this way is not useless once you get an engine going: It can be your engine. You can make an engine out of Chaining festivals. Village, terminal action and any following action is an Laboratory. Chaining Cellars/Warehouses become even more useful to sculpt your perfect hand. You greatly underestimates the power level of this way.
And you overestimate itís strength. It certainly isnít a $4 as your card.

Minion's "refill to 4" option turns a silver into a $5 action.
And draw to five is even better. That's too good to be a way card.
I agree that Way of the Flying Fish is too good, but I don't think this is the best reasoning. Minion is different because it discards your hand, which is often desirable (also it has a decent attack). If you want to compare this to a Minion-like effect, you may as well compare it directly to Way of the Mole.
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2021, 04:16:39 pm »
+1




A simple, but sneaky, Way (and death to hand-size attacks) Ė useful in some spots, but mostly not once you get an engine going.
He, that is my idea but in a way instead of an action XD

But this way is not useless once you get an engine going: It can be your engine. You can make an engine out of Chaining festivals. Village, terminal action and any following action is an Laboratory. Chaining Cellars/Warehouses become even more useful to sculpt your perfect hand. You greatly underestimates the power level of this way.
And you overestimate itís strength. It certainly isnít a $4 as your card.

Minion's "refill to 4" option turns a silver into a $5 action.
And draw to five is even better. That's too good to be a way card.

This Way doesn't have a desirable way of reducing your handsize built into it like Minion does, and doesn't attack like Minion does. You can't just look at one aspect of a multifaceted card like Minion and decide that specific aspect is the reason behind its price. Not to mention that discarding your hand and then DtXing is way better than just DtXing. If they were the same, Scholar would be clearly outclassed by Library. Yet Scholar is widely considered the better of the two by a significant margin.

I disagree that Way of the Flying Fish is too good. From a default handsize, it's identical to Way of the Pig, and with a bigger handsize it's Ruined Village. It's usually easier to have a large handsize than a small one. Flying Fish is usually worse than Pig imo.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 04:23:50 pm by Gubump »
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