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Author Topic: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing  (Read 7866 times)

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #50 on: July 23, 2021, 05:58:18 pm »
+3

Darn it. Looks like my judging will have to be delayed by a day. It appears that Saturday will be quite a busy day for me, and so I will not be able to find the time to judge. So yeah. Sunday around 8:00 PM EDT it is then. Sorry y'all!
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Freddy10

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #51 on: July 23, 2021, 06:07:36 pm »
+1

Drawing to 5 simply isn’t impressive. Jack does it and it is not really why you get Jack.
Pig is more versatile and far less situational.
You don't get an action from Jack. I think flying there are some kingdom where you can buy actions just to use as flying fish, and I doubt that happens with pig
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #52 on: July 23, 2021, 08:49:45 pm »
+2

I don't think a Way can be "too good" if it really needs support from other Actions.
That seems like a weird statement. By that reasoning, Way of the Ox would not be too good if it said "+50 Actions". Way of the King's Court would also not be too good.

Way of the Ox with "+50 Actions" would be game warping (basically "in games using this, dont worry about +Actions"), but the real question is whether that warped game can still be interesting and fun. Compare with Donate as an example. I think maybe it could work but the +2 Action version is more interesting (in terms of making more cards relevant as you play)

Way of the KC's problem is how it makes even lackluster "+2 Cards" and "+$2" cards super strong,  so you still get the sense KC is the star even if it's technically acting on another card. It will feel like the cards you're buying don't really matter. That makes it more like "Way of the Rebuild". The game would become "get lots of actions fast", which could work, but it would play out so quickly it would start to feel more like luck than strategy.

Its true most official Ways seem like they'd be cards around the sub $2 range (if they'd make sense as cards), but I don't think fitting in there is as important as game considerations. "Strictly better" is a problem for cards as if you have both the better and worse card in the kingdom, the worse is wasting space. But you can only play with 1 Way at a time, so it matters less.
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emtzalex

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #53 on: July 23, 2021, 09:21:08 pm »
+3

I don't think a Way can be "too good" if it really needs support from other Actions.
That seems like a weird statement. By that reasoning, Way of the Ox would not be too good if it said "+50 Actions". Way of the King's Court would also not be too good.

A Way should be generally worse than an effect printed on any existing Action Kingdom card. These are meant to be situational benefits that could not exist as cards. Way of the Flying Fish is definitely strong enough to be a $2.

This point is belied by the existence of Way of the Mouse, which in fact plays an existing Action card (and yes, I am aware that you said generally). Trying to define the range of power of Ways is made nearly impossible by the potential for Way of the Mouse setting aside Encampment, which effectively lets you play every Action card as a better-than-$5 card (since you don't have Lost City's on-buy penalty) in addition to its existing purpose. This is massively game warping, as things like Ruins and Horses can be played as LCs, so getting them is as good as gaining a very powerful Action. Also, Turtle and Chameleon can make existing cards vastly more powerful.

While there are certainly contexts in which a Flying Fish would be useful on its own, I'm actually not sure that it could be a Kingdom card (or at least, not one worth a slot in an official expansion). There are way fewer disappearing money cards (which would set up a highly useful WotFF) than there are terminal draw cards (which are set up by Ox).
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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #54 on: July 23, 2021, 11:50:16 pm »
0

Peon
$3
Action
Choose either: Draw until you have 6 cards in hand; or +2 Actions and +$1.

I updated my entry. It's now your Draw to X card and your +Actions in one, but neither function is very good on its own. My original version had the option of +2 Cards instead and cost $2. With the change to "draw to 6," it now combos much better with itself so a cost of $2 would be too low.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #55 on: July 24, 2021, 02:32:49 am »
0

I don't think a Way can be "too good" if it really needs support from other Actions.
That seems like a weird statement. By that reasoning, Way of the Ox would not be too good if it said "+50 Actions". Way of the King's Court would also not be too good.

A Way should be generally worse than an effect printed on any existing Action Kingdom card. These are meant to be situational benefits that could not exist as cards. Way of the Flying Fish is definitely strong enough to be a $2.

This point is belied by the existence of Way of the Mouse, which in fact plays an existing Action card (and yes, I am aware that you said generally). Trying to define the range of power of Ways is made nearly impossible by the potential for Way of the Mouse setting aside Encampment, which effectively lets you play every Action card as a better-than-$5 card (since you don't have Lost City's on-buy penalty) in addition to its existing purpose. This is massively game warping, as things like Ruins and Horses can be played as LCs, so getting them is as good as gaining a very powerful Action. Also, Turtle and Chameleon can make existing cards vastly more powerful.

While there are certainly contexts in which a Flying Fish would be useful on its own, I'm actually not sure that it could be a Kingdom card (or at least, not one worth a slot in an official expansion). There are way fewer disappearing money cards (which would set up a highly useful WotFF) than there are terminal draw cards (which are set up by Ox).
Way of the Mouse was a mistake.
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lompeluiten

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #56 on: July 24, 2021, 09:42:37 am »
0

I don't think a Way can be "too good" if it really needs support from other Actions.
That seems like a weird statement. By that reasoning, Way of the Ox would not be too good if it said "+50 Actions". Way of the King's Court would also not be too good.

A Way should be generally worse than an effect printed on any existing Action Kingdom card. These are meant to be situational benefits that could not exist as cards. Way of the Flying Fish is definitely strong enough to be a $2.

This point is belied by the existence of Way of the Mouse, which in fact plays an existing Action card (and yes, I am aware that you said generally). Trying to define the range of power of Ways is made nearly impossible by the potential for Way of the Mouse setting aside Encampment, which effectively lets you play every Action card as a better-than-$5 card (since you don't have Lost City's on-buy penalty) in addition to its existing purpose. This is massively game warping, as things like Ruins and Horses can be played as LCs, so getting them is as good as gaining a very powerful Action. Also, Turtle and Chameleon can make existing cards vastly more powerful.

While there are certainly contexts in which a Flying Fish would be useful on its own, I'm actually not sure that it could be a Kingdom card (or at least, not one worth a slot in an official expansion). There are way fewer disappearing money cards (which would set up a highly useful WotFF) than there are terminal draw cards (which are set up by Ox).

But those are not they only synergies. There are more cards that don't draw, but isn't terminal. I can't find an list, but here are a few: Cellar, Hamlet Village, Mill, Secret Cave, outpost, Upgrade, Hidout.

And you can still get it to work with villages +an discard or Trash from hand. A bit more difficult, but not undo-able.

And ofcourse in defence of against this list:
http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Handsize_attack

It is treu for every card in this chalange, but because this is an way there is no cost involved.

On the question if it is fun. I think so.
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lompeluiten

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #57 on: July 24, 2021, 04:01:11 pm »
0

And ofcourse in defence of against this list:
http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Handsize_attack
The Way is not a defense like Lighthouse, it is a meta-defense, i.e. its presence makes handsize attacks pointless in the Kingdom.
The presence of handsize attacks in a Kingdom has absolutely no influence upon the playing power of the Way.
Where going deep here xD There is power of threat is an power, isn't it? Even when not used, it does warp the game. But you can analyse it as depowering those cards.

In either case, this is not unique to this way, but all cards in this challenge. And this analyses also true for the lighthouse: It depowers all attack cards by it's mere presence: "maybe going deep into the attacks might not be a good choice with the lighthouse in the game". And the other way around is also true: If the other player buys an attack card, this will increase the power level of your lighthouses.

What is different here that it is an way, so everyone has acces to it, most of the time. But protecting yourself from an hand size attack with it still has a cost: Playing an action card you might want to play differently.
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mathdude

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #58 on: July 24, 2021, 10:50:46 pm »
+2

Atheneum
$5 - Action-Attack

If this is the first Atheneum you've played this turn, +1 Card, +1 Action, each other player with 4 or more cards in hand puts one onto their deck. Otherwise, draw until you have 8 cards in hand and each other player draws until they have 5 cards in hand.

...

DtX for all players, sort of.

So its first play is a cantrip, half as bad of an attack as Ghost Ship (that in games with 3+ players can stack to be just like Ghost Ship). But if you land 2 in a turn, absent of any other cards, you negate the attack, and end up just at +4 cards. However, a 3rd (which requires village support) is mostly useless.

Of course, it's rare you would have 2 of these and nothing else. If you have Labs first, the 2nd Atheneum is weak. But if you have non-terminals (that don't draw), like Minion or Coven, then 2 Atheneums are great (even better with Festival, combining the non-terminal, non-draw with village support!)

Outtake:
Initially, I had it not attacking. First play was +1 Action, draw to 6. All future plays were draw to 8.
The first play compared to a Lab, but was worse if you played Lab first, had Hireling in play, etc... and was better if you played Minions, etc. first. But the second play was a Smithy, absent of other cards and that was too weak (especially with a 3rd being +1 Card, effectively). I considered draw to 9 curr the 2nd play, and that may have been okay... but I like the attack version better.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #59 on: July 24, 2021, 11:41:21 pm »
+3

24 HOURS REMAINING!
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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #60 on: July 24, 2021, 11:43:53 pm »
+2

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #61 on: July 25, 2021, 04:44:38 am »
+1



Quote
Sorceress
⑤ Action - Attack

+1 Card
+1 Action

Discard a card.
If it's an Action, each other
player gains a Curse.
Otherwise, +②.

It's a super Oasis, that can sometimes Curse players if you want to. I've got nothing else to say about it.
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fika monster

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #62 on: July 25, 2021, 10:02:38 am »
0



Quote
Sorceress
⑤ Action - Attack

+1 Card
+1 Action

Discard a card.
If it's an Action, each other
player gains a Curse.
Otherwise, +②.

It's a super Oasis, that can sometimes Curse players if you want to. I've got nothing else to say about it.


I cant see how this fulfills the "Draw to X" requirement.
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #63 on: July 25, 2021, 11:06:17 am »
+1



Quote
Sorceress
⑤ Action - Attack

+1 Card
+1 Action

Discard a card.
If it's an Action, each other
player gains a Curse.
Otherwise, +②.

It's a super Oasis, that can sometimes Curse players if you want to. I've got nothing else to say about it.


I cant see how this fulfills the "Draw to X" requirement.

or a card that helps activate a draw-to-X engine.

This helps activate a DtX engine by being net negative to handsize while producing .
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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #64 on: July 25, 2021, 08:25:12 pm »
+1

SUBMISSIONS CLOSED

I will take about a day to judge. So I guess this is some sort of delay on top of a delay. Neat! (I'm sorry though...)
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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #65 on: July 26, 2021, 02:08:51 pm »
+9

CONTEST 122 RESULTS

22 entries if I didn't miscount. God I hope I didn't. Multiple apologies if that's the case. Perhaps I should've tallied the entries before jumping directly to judging as other smarter people have done before me. Ugh. I'm already late as it is though, and my punctual self can only take so much, heh. Anyway, many entries means many ways in which I can screw up my judging. Don't take what I say here personally, I ain't no expert. Just a guy who enjoys some Dominion. So mostly, I will pick my winner, finalists and semifinalists based on how much I like the card over how balanced it is. I am in no mood to do a systematic analysis of everything, and empirically determining how much a card should truly cost and yaddi yadda. Nope.avi.

Still, I will try my best to give some constructive thoughts. Hopefully, said thoughts are not tooooo far off being reasonable. A man can dream. Anyway. Self deprecation over, it's judging time!




First of all, we will analyse cards that can be a good component in a draw-to-X engine without being draw-to-X cards themselves. I’m happy to see some entries in this category, as I thought most people would find making an actual draw-to-X card more appealing. Anyway, here’s what we’ve got:

Corbita (Action – Duration)
+
At the start of your next turn, reveal and discard any number of Action or Treasure cards for + each.
This is probably a bottom median card, what with it being a half turn terminal Silver. These type of cards really do struggle to fight for terminal space. And here, rotating Corbitas by playing 2 copies, one per turn, doesn’t seem as efficient as doing it with stuff like Dungeon or Enchantress. However, I think, the power is unique and cool, and there is no question it is a strong draw-to-X enabler. Perhaps it relies too much on that type of interaction to be worth it, but I say that the unique bonus makes it a fine card. It’s up to the player to determine how to best exploit Corbita!

Refuge (Action)
+1 Action
+1 Buy
Exile from 1 to 3 differently named cards from your hand.
The comparison to Temple was correct, I believe. After all, the non-Vanilla effect is pretty much borrowed from that card. You keep the though, for the best or the worse (Exiling Estate + Curse, for instance). Probably for the best, let’s be real. This card seems pretty comfortable at its power level. I wonder why the +1 Buy was added, but I’m not against it. Just curious. Either way, the card is fine. It’s a good, but expensive thinner. Such cards have a place in Dominion. If you run a draw-to-X engine with this, I can see players being forced to Exile stronger cards. But that’s okay: you can always get them back.

Sorceress (Action – Attack)
+1 Card
+1 Action
Discard a card. If it’s an Action card, each other player gains a Curse. Otherwise, +.
Och, a cantrip Attack card… and a curser as well! To give a Curse, you need to fulfill a difficult condition, but at least you do not need to invest into a Potion to get this Familiar-esque curser. In a draw engine, this will be quite nasty I believe. The payload option, while easier to obtain, is nothing too crazy. It’s sort of a mix between Oasis and Mill. But this costs , so again, nothing too crazy. All in all, the card seems fine, until you get that one game where someone finds a quick and easy way to turn your deck into a pile of Curses, haha!

Town Square (Action)
+2 Actions
+1 Buy
Look at the top card of your deck. You may discard it.
Cute, elegant, a card totally worth existing. Would’ve been a perfect fit in the Base game (an additional Village wouldn’t hurt, a cheap source of Buys is needed, the top deck inspection works with some other Base cards). Villages that do not draw work good with draw-to-X, and here the additional bonuses are good for you. I’d pick this over Native Village any day, but then again, I am a pretty strong Native Village hater, heh. Okay well, Town Square’s good, so huzzah!

Wizard’s Tower (Action – Victory)
+2 Cards
+1 Action
Reveal your hand and discard all Victory cards and cards costing .
-----
1
I think you best said it yourself. It’s a Laboratory that completely throws the Lab chaining out of the window. Getting multiple copies of this thus seems like a poor idea. I somehow can’t shake the feeling that this smells like Great Hall, although, my intuition could seriously be off here. I don’t see myself opening with a Wizard’s Tower ever… and so I’m having trouble judging when and if I want one of these in my deck at some point. This card certainly tries to fill some kind of niche, but it’s hard to find which one. Discarding for draw-to-X seems appealing, but you get no bonus from discarding at all. It just… sort of happen. Mill gives you some dosh at least.



Then we arrive at the core of it: cards that actually do some draw-to-X stuff. As expected, this category has received the most submissions. Let us take a look:

Atheneum (Action – Attack)
If this is the first Atheneum you played this turn, +1 Card, +1 Action and each other player with 4 or more cards in hand puts one onto their deck. Otherwise, draw until you have 8 cards in hand and each other player draws until they have 5 cards in hand.
There are simply too many words here for what this card does. It’s got all this text to make you Attack, then undo the Attack and… where are we going with this? I mean, I understand the concept behind this, and I think there is something worth exploring here. It’s just… it’s so needlessly complex for a marginal effect. Draw to 8 cards is a tough idea to balance, so I am glad someone took a shot at that. We have discussed this rather intensively on Discord once, and the conclusion was that it was indeed a really tough effect to try for. Maybe the buffer Atheneum you must play before you get to have the big draw is a good idea, but that’s something that is easier to determine after a couple of play testing sessions.

Book Seller (Action – Reaction)
+1 Action
You may discard a card. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
I am glad you updated this card. The first version had serious problems with the Reaction, since it did not mention that it had to be discarded outside of Clean-up. This meant that every Book Seller you played would be discarded from play during Clean-up, increasing your next handsize by 5 cards. Nuts! But this was then, and this is now. For this version of Book Seller, it works. It works, but it’s a little on the boring side I’d say. It is a discard before Lab when you chain them, which sounds fine at . Like I said, I guess only the dull aspect of Book Seller is something I have a beef with, which is super subjective and personal.

Bookstore (Action – Reaction)
You may spend an unused Action (Action, not Action card), to discard up to 7 cards. Draw until you have 7 cards in hand.
-----
At the start of your turn, you may reveal this from your hand, to play it.
I had trouble to understand the subtleties of this card after a quick glance. I believe that this is indicative of a card that’s perhaps a little too complex. It is weird to me that you spend double Actions to get the full effect of Bookstore when you play it sans the Reaction. Especially since only one component of the card gets unlocked whereas you always draw no matter what. This feels non-cohesive, even if the second effect strongly benefits from the former. When reacting with this, you could essentially give up on your Action phase to draw a lot, which seems to be a desirable effect in money-centric strategies. Or you could React without spending an Action to get something akin to Duration draw. I think the card is versatile enough, which is cool. My beef is only toward how hard it takes you to re-read the card to fully comprehend it.

Broker (Action)
Reveal any number of Treasures from your hand. Put them on the bottom of your deck in any order, then draw until you have 6 cards in hand.
Misleadingly fun! It doesn’t look like much on the surface, but this makes you build engine-y decks that actually want Treasures in it. This is the cool way of playing Dominion. The fact that you stack your hoard of yellows under your deck means that you can keep going with your turn and grab your payload back later. Pretty clever in my opinion. And unique as well. Save for Pearl Diver, pretty much nothing deals with the bottom of your deck in Dominion. This does it. And it does it in a cool way. I like Broker.

Council of Elders (Action)
+1 Buy
All players (including you) may discard a card. Draw until you have 7 cards in hand.
Short and to the point, this card is very easy to assess. I will always praise good and efficient design like this. The +1 Buy doesn’t feel out of place at all here too. It’s interesting to see that on a draw-to-X card. Dominion has never done it before. The one little thing I might say here is that I think perhaps other players should get something for discarding, à la Vault. Otherwise, if they are not mirroring the draw-to-X deck, there is almost zero reasons why they’d discard. For newer players, it sounds like a trap effect. “Discarding for nothing? Huh? Why would I do that? Are you trying to pull a quick one on me, Greg?”. Overall, neat card.

Flywheel (Action)
Trash a card from your hand. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand.
Beautiful. One might argue that this should perhaps cost , as it is a trashing Smithy and this seems on the higher end of those variants. I think I’d leave it as-is for now, and check where it stands after play testing it. It’s an easy adjustment anyway. My take on Flywheel is this: It’s very simple and elegant and, like, I love it. Yay!

Geographer (Action)
+2 Actions
You may discard a card from your hand. If you did, draw until you have cards in hand equal to its cost in .
Ohhh what a cool unique effect! I would like to compare this to Apprentice, since it draws according to a certain card’s cost, but these two cards aren’t that close after all. This is cheaper, is a Village, does not trash and will draw less. So, plusses and minuses. Early on in the game, this is not too good. In fact, I cannot recommend opening with a Geographer. Even if you discard your bought Silver, you do not draw. Later on in the game, though, it starts becoming more appealing. It is a Lost City if you discard a , which… I don’t think you want to do that often. Discarding a Province, though, mama mia! +5 Cards and +2 Actions. Go nuts. If you have a way to collide these two cards to make it happen, there could be something really good here. Your subsequent Geographers won’t do too much if you pull that off, but spiking a big draw is probably all you need to get going anyway. To reiterate: Cool effect!

Industrious Guide (Action)
Reveal your hand. Discard all non-Action cards. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand.
Looks tough to use in an engine (you’ll have mostly Action cards) and undesirable in a money-centric strategy (you’ll draw more, at the expense of discarding all of your Treasures). In your engine, this might net in being a +2 or +3 Cards, which, okay. But if you utilize stuff like Native Village, Fishing Village, Necropolis, or Inn, then it looks better. These are the cards to be on the lookout for. Anyway, pretty straightforward card, albeit looks a little difficult to use efficiently, perhaps.

Scribe (Action – Duration – Reaction)
+1 Action
Either now or at the start of your next turn, draw until you have 6 cards in hand.
-----
When you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may play it.
I’m really not trying to take a jab or anything, but to me, this is kind of the fixed version of the first iteration of Book Seller, since it addresses my biggest concern with it. It even adds a nice Duration clause, mimicking that of Village Green. This makes it an excellent defense against discarding Attacks. Well, the first one does. Subsequent discarded Scribes will do nothing, and you’re better off putting them in your discard pile first instead of uselessly making them miss a turn. Multiple Village Greens will thus stack in the face of Attacks, while Scribes will not, however they will do more the first time you react with one. Pretty neat I’d say! Maybe this is stepping a little bit on Village Green’s quirk, what with Scribe being orange and blue and sharing the same Reaction, but I think this works anyway. I can see myself trying to play the minigame of “how can I discard my Scribes this game…” And this is a fun minigame. I like Scribe is what I’m trying to say, lol.

Sheriff (Action – Duration)
Now and at the start of your next turn: Discard 2 cards, then draw until you have 7 cards in hand.
The Sheriff’s in town y’all! At , he certainly packs a punch. Discarding 2 before drawing to 7 is strong, but having it as a Duration effect is really strong. +4 Cards at the start of your turn after sifting is undeniably a powerful effect. This might be one of the most potent draw card in the game actually, ha! I said I didn’t want to enter cost debate, but let’s consider for a moment that this card might cost . It certainly would have a place in the small exclusive club of cards. I would test both versions and see which one comes on top. All in all, while strong, Sheriff is, above all, interesting. Duration draw-to-X has not made an appearance yet in Dominion, and I’m happy to see this idea being exploited. In such an elegant way too! So all in all, I give the Sheriff a thumbs up.

Tidy Town (Action – Attack)
+2 Actions
Each player (including you) discards any number of cards from their hand, then reveals a hand with only Actions and Treasures. Then, draw until you have 4 cards in hand.
What a crazy Attack! This might make someone discard down to 2 cards or less if they have 1 or more green cards in their hand. No Attack in Dominion can leave you with such a small start-of-turn handsize. If your hand is something like “Village, Village, Silver, Silver, Estate”, then normally a Militia would make you discard something like Estate and Silver. Maybe. But here, it goes beyond that and makes you discard an extra Silver. Or might as well toss the 2 Villages at this point. Point is, it can be extra mean if you have Victory cards in hand. This looks appealing in non-trashing boards. The perk you get when you play Tidy Town sounds like it could potentially be a Village, more or less. So that’s my take here. I just fear that the Attack can cut too deep if you’re unlucky enough to have a hand such as the one I described above.

Tome (Treasure)

Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
People in this thread have compared this to Venture and I think I will echo these thoughts. The fact that you can play this as your last Treasure is really good. You refill your hand. You can rinse and repeat with the Treasures you drew if you drew or had another Tome in hand. This could lead to boring “buy nothing but Treasures and Tomes” decks, which, I dunno, could be worrisome. One thing is for sure however: this card is sexy clean. 2 line of text is a beautiful sight.

Way of the Flying Fish (Way)
+1 Action
Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
Quite the controversial card this week! Now I’m almost too scared to say stuff about it, since it has been debated so much already. Well, to me, when I first saw it, I figured this card landed somewhere between Way of the Mole and Way of the Owl. Seeing that these 2 Ways already exist made this a little less unique for me. See, I’m not looking at the power level right now, I’m talking about this Way out of pure feels, lol. Though if I took my own personal shot at this card regarding its strength, I would say that it might be on the stronger side of Ways. I feel like there is quite a few ways (lol) you can make Way of the Flying Fish work and build an engine around it. You sift with Warehouse, then you Lab with any other Action card in your hand, for instance. Anyway, that’s just my take on this, I’m ready to have it demolished, hahaha!



Finally, we have a couple of outliers that act as some sort of hybrid between draw-to-X cards and draw-to-X activators. But! Perhaps this weird combo will offer some interesting ideas. Let’s check it out:

Bookkeeper (Action)
Choose one: +2 Coffers; or draw until the number of cards in your hand equals your Coffers.
Unquestionably a very unique effect. Props to you for coming up with such a bombastic and fun idea! I feel like this can snowball to crazy levels though, since the draw is technically unbounded. People play Butcher for the 2 Coffers without trashing, and it is often the correct play to stockpile said Coffers. Players might tend to do the same here. It does however take a while to get going. Only when you play your 4th Bookkeeper do you start getting some kind of draw. The slow pace of it is perhaps what’s keeping Bookkeeper in check. Yet somehow… God I just really fear that one explosive deck. Throning this, for instance, considerably accelerates the point of non-return abuse in a game. All in all, people will probably take this to try for the draw. Otherwise, they took a Villain without an Attack.

Clock of the Time Dragon (Action)
Discard a card. If it was a Treasure, +2 Actions and +. Otherwise, draw until you have 6 cards in hand.
Okay, that is a badass name for a card. I needed to say that first. The card itself looks really fun to play too. It is a little reminiscent of Minion. I feel like you could build a deck of these Dragons, and try to manage a healthy balance of Treasures and Action cards. I like that you discard the Treasure for payload, since you might draw it again when you activate your draw-to-X. Beautifully designed!

Odd-Jobber (Action)
+1 Action
Choose one: Play up to 3 Treasures from your hand; or draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
If you have an odd number of Treasures in play, +1 Buy.
First of all, I think I could do without the bottom clause. The whole “odd number” for the Buy thingy. The minigame of Odd-Jobber is to play a deck which wants Treasures and Action cards, like Storyteller. To streamline it, I don’t believe it needs the extra minigame just for a Buy. But that’s just my personal opinion. I mentioned Storyteller; this is highly reminiscent of this to me. Played from a hand of 6 cards or less, each Treasure you play is +1 Card. Storyteller makes you draw more according to the value of played Treasures, but here, you actually get to cash them in. So the comparison is healthy, I believe. If my assumption is correct, then this would be a bit underpriced. I’m only speculating here, so it’s not a strike against Odd-Jobber by any means. I just love spit balling, often incorrectly, about Dominion stuff. :P

Peon (Action)
Choose one: Draw until you have 6 cards in hands; or +2 Actions and +.
Simply put, I think Clock of the Time Dragon tries that effect in a more interesting way. There is a minigame going on with Clock of the Time Dragon, whereas here, it is way more straightforward and monolithic. And it is cheap too, so why not. Tossing a bunch of Peons in your deck to build around it sounds totally feasible. The end result doesn’t sound too thrilling though. Maybe a clever player adds a good trasher and some decent payload cards in there too. So yeah. I think the monolithic aspect of this card seems a little too upfront.




Semifinialist: Broker ; Refuge ; Corbita ; Geographer ; Scribe

Finalists: Clock of the Time Dragon ; Flywheel ; Town Square

Winner: Sheriff

Clock of the Time Dragon almost won this one. But I decided to enact Sheriff as the winner, as it is more unique (no Duration draw-to-X in Dominion thus far), and less monolithic (Minion syndrome). Town Square and Flywheel were likewise strong contenders, if only because of how darn elegant they are, but Sheriff is triggering something in my brain that makes me go: “Ooooh ye babyyy!” And like, I gotta listen to the brain, I suppose. One might say Sheriff is too strong, to which I reply: “Take it to Donald, the man who made Wharf.”

So there you have it! Congratulations, AJL828! And a good round of applause for all these beautiful entries we have been blessed with this week!
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 12:44:43 pm by X-tra »
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xyz123

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #66 on: July 26, 2021, 04:04:47 pm »
+2

Thanks for organising it X-tra.
Congratulations AJL828
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JW

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #67 on: July 26, 2021, 05:31:22 pm »
+2

Flywheel (Action)
Trash a card from your hand. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand.
Beautiful. One might argue that this should perhaps cost , as it is a trashing Smithy and this seems on the higher end of those variants. I think I’d leave it as-is for now, and check where it stands after play testing it. It’s an easy adjustment anyway. My take on Flywheel is this: It’s very simple and elegant and, like, I love it. Yay!

Thanks for proposing and judging this fun contest! I think you substantially over-estimate the power of Flywheel. The trashing is mandatory, which dramatically limits its utility as a draw engine because you will generally run out of cards that you want to trash.
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #68 on: July 26, 2021, 05:36:38 pm »
0

Flywheel (Action)
Trash a card from your hand. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand.
Beautiful. One might argue that this should perhaps cost , as it is a trashing Smithy and this seems on the higher end of those variants. I think I’d leave it as-is for now, and check where it stands after play testing it. It’s an easy adjustment anyway. My take on Flywheel is this: It’s very simple and elegant and, like, I love it. Yay!

Thanks for proposing and judging this fun contest! I think you substantially over-estimate the power of Flywheel. The trashing is mandatory, which dramatically limits its utility as a draw engine because you will generally run out of cards that you want to trash.

I disagree; that applies to all cards with mandatory trashing. Trashing, even when mandatory, is almost universally seen as an upside even for engine-oriented cards that aren't even TfB, like Junk Dealer and Hideout.

I do agree with its price of over pricing it at , but not because of the trashing being mandatory, but because the trashing occurs before the drawing.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2021, 05:38:20 pm by Gubump »
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X-tra

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #69 on: July 26, 2021, 05:46:14 pm »
0

I disagree; that applies to all cards with mandatory trashing. Trashing, even when mandatory, is almost universally seen as an upside even for engine-oriented cards that aren't even TfB, like Junk Dealer and Hideout.

I do agree with its price of over pricing it at , but not because of the trashing being mandatory, but because the trashing occurs before the drawing.

You might just be right about this. But trashing enables draw, so it must be built like this. It is probably fine at . In my own words, "I'd leave it as-is". It was just an hypothesis that hinges on the result of a couple of playtesting games. But it's fair to say that even without having played any games with Flywheel, it definitely smells like a .
« Last Edit: July 26, 2021, 05:48:45 pm by X-tra »
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JW

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #70 on: July 26, 2021, 06:54:03 pm »
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I disagree; that applies to all cards with mandatory trashing. Trashing, even when mandatory, is almost universally seen as an upside even for engine-oriented cards that aren't even TfB, like Junk Dealer and Hideout.

I do agree with its price of over pricing it at , but not because of the trashing being mandatory, but because the trashing occurs before the drawing.

As a general matter I don't disagree with you. But "draw to X" doesn't combo well with the much more common +Cards sources of draw (think of a Smithy/Flywheel engine). Sure, if you can build a combined Flywheel / other draw to X engine, it's a great addition. But you can't plan on Flywheel being your only draw because of the mandatory trashing, so you're going to need other draw, and that probably won't be other draw to X because of its rarity. Similarly, if you can't count on having "draw to X" forever, you can't add as many other cards that go particularly well with it (such as non-terminal sources of coins).

Edit: to put it slightly differently, I'm not convinced that Flywheel is better than an Action that read: Trash a card from your hand. +3 Cards. But that action would be a good $5. "Trash a card from your hand. +2 Cards." That card would get bought at $5 (which goes to show how powerful Masquerade is!), but I don't think it would be strong for a trasher.   Remind me to think before posting next time ;D
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 01:39:33 am by JW »
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #71 on: July 27, 2021, 12:03:13 am »
+2

I disagree; that applies to all cards with mandatory trashing. Trashing, even when mandatory, is almost universally seen as an upside even for engine-oriented cards that aren't even TfB, like Junk Dealer and Hideout.

I do agree with its price of over pricing it at , but not because of the trashing being mandatory, but because the trashing occurs before the drawing.

Edit: to put it slightly differently, I'm not convinced that Flywheel is better than an Action that read: "Trash a card from your hand. +2 Cards." That card would get bought at $5 (which goes to show how powerful Masquerade is!), but I don't think it would be strong for a trasher.

1. Flywheel draws 3 cards from a default handsize, not 2. You're down to 3 cards in hand before drawing.
2. "Trash a card from your hand. +2 Cards." Is not printable at $5. That compares poorly to Masquerade and is strictly worse than Recruiter.
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majiponi

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #72 on: July 27, 2021, 05:58:28 pm »
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Industrious Guide (Action)
Reveal your hand. Discard all non-Action cards. Draw until you have 6 cards in hand.
Looks tough to use in an engine (you’ll have mostly Action cards) and undesirable in a money-centric strategy (you’ll draw more, at the expense of discarding all of your Treasures). In your engine, this might net in being a +2 or +3 Cards, which, okay. But if you utilize stuff like Native Village, Fishing Village, Necropolis, or Inn, then it looks better. These are the cards to be on the lookout for. Anyway, pretty straightforward card, albeit looks a little difficult to use efficiently, perhaps.

It lets me discard useless cards like Provinces or untrashed Coppers, and cycles my deck to let me play Action cards faster.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Weekly Design Contest 122: That Other Way of Drawing
« Reply #73 on: July 27, 2021, 07:44:22 pm »
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Thank you for judging


Tidy Town (Action – Attack)
+2 Actions
Each player (including you) discards any number of cards from their hand, then reveals a hand with only Actions and Treasures. Then, draw until you have 4 cards in hand.
What a crazy Attack! This might make someone discard down to 2 cards or less if they have 1 or more green cards in their hand. No Attack in Dominion can leave you with such a small start-of-turn handsize. If your hand is something like “Village, Village, Silver, Silver, Estate”, then normally a Militia would make you discard something like Estate and Silver. Maybe. But here, it goes beyond that and makes you discard an extra Silver. Or might as well toss the 2 Villages at this point. Point is, it can be extra mean if you have Victory cards in hand. This looks appealing in non-trashing boards. The perk you get when you play Tidy Town sounds like it could potentially be a Village, more or less. So that’s my take here. I just fear that the Attack can cut too deep if you’re unlucky enough to have a hand such as the one I described above.

Just to clarify, the attack is "Reveal a hand with only Actions and Treasures" not "only Actions or only Treasures". So a hand of 2 Silvers, 2 Villages and an Estate, the only card that they need to discard is the Estate. The intent of the attack is that they only need to discard the "junk" cards from their hand - not a strong attack but it can be quite irritating if you have sifters or wanted to trash that junk.
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